: Autoweek fuel economy run! (Prius does NOT win.)



Jesda
10-05-06, 12:42 AM
Summary:


JEEP COMMANDER
20.3 gallons of premium gas at $2.699
17.2 mpg vs. EPA highway rating of 18 mpg


CHEVROLET CORVETTE
12.8 gallons of premium gas at $2.699
27.3 mpg vs. EPA highway rating of 27 mpg


HONDA ACCORD V6 HYBRID
10.3 gallons of regular gas at $2.599
33.9 mpg vs. EPA highway rating of 34 mpg


TOYOTA PRIUS
8.3 gallons of regular gas at $2.599
42 mpg vs. EPA highway rating of 51 mpg


VOLKSWAGEN JETTA TDI
7.0 gallons of B20 biodiesel at $2.749
49.9 mpg vs. EPA highway rating of 42 mpg

If VW is a failing brand, at least they do one thing right, and thats diesels. I should note that my dad's 1992 Civic hatchback with 150k did 51mpg on a 700-mile trip.


Full article:
http://www.autoweek.com/apps/p...14443 (http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060424/FREE/60417021&SearchID=73244466514443)

AznPrydeRegalRyde
10-05-06, 07:47 AM
It's been a big misconception for awhile that the Prius is such a great car, with regards to mpg's. All these celebrities running around saying how great it is on fuel, freaking morons.

EcSTSatic
10-05-06, 07:55 AM
VW knows their stuff when it comes to economy. I remember the early 80's. VW Diesel Rabbits were in such demand, they couldn't make enough of them!

keeksv
10-05-06, 08:08 AM
One of my friends has a Mercedes turbodiesel that gets some pretty impressive MPG for a mid to full size sedan...and he claims the torque is not disappointing. Love the fact that the Corvette is in the high 20's. My car does 25-27 on the highway (off boost).

I~LUV~Caddys8792
10-05-06, 08:27 AM
I hate Priuses and love Diesels!

dp102288
10-05-06, 08:42 AM
Wow. I am surprised. Well, I keep trying with my new high of 17.4 mpg.

Elvis
10-05-06, 09:15 AM
The following post is NOT intended to start a sexual preference discussion. It is for demographic study purposes only.

I was told the other day that the Jetta is a "gay" car. If you live in Mid-town Memphis and drive a Jetta, you are probably gay.

The commercial VW ran a few years ago where they played that "duh duh duh" song and two guys were riding around in a VW picking up furniture was apparently "code" to the gay community.

A friend who used to be in advertising told me that these latest VW "crash" commercials are trying to dispel that myth. Particularly the one where the two men are talking about Viagra. VW is getting serious about attacking the "rice" market too.

90Brougham350
10-05-06, 10:16 AM
Now there must be something to that, because I've heard or read the same thing (can't remember if it was here or where it was) that mostly teenage girls and men with a different peruasion were interested in VW's.

Jesda
10-05-06, 11:26 AM
Pontiac is the most popular brand among females, but VW is more popular with young women and 'urban men'.

ChicagoCTS32
10-05-06, 01:25 PM
In one of the more recent issues of C/D or M/T they tested a BMW 330i and a 330d. The 330d has only 220 or so hp, but a ridiculous amount of torque. Somewhere over 300 ft-lb. The fuel economy test they did returned some impressive numbers, I think it was somewhere above 35-37 mpg. Of course it's not sold in the US.

I wish the search feature at those two websites was worth a damn and I could post the link to the article.

Elvis
10-05-06, 01:30 PM
My wife's Z3 with the 2.5 I6 gets close to 30 mpg. Something like 33 on the highway. I realize it doesn't weigh anything, but that's still impressive to have that much torque and still be efficient.

Ford can't do that. :(

Honda can't do torque.

EcSTSatic
10-05-06, 02:03 PM
The following post is NOT intended to start a sexual preference discussion. It is for demographic study purposes only.

I was told the other day that the Jetta is a "gay" car. If you live in Mid-town Memphis and drive a Jetta, you are probably gay.

The commercial VW ran a few years ago where they played that "duh duh duh" song and two guys were riding around in a VW picking up furniture was apparently "code" to the gay community.

A friend who used to be in advertising told me that these latest VW "crash" commercials are trying to dispel that myth. Particularly the one where the two men are talking about Viagra. VW is getting serious about attacking the "rice" market too.

Couldn't help myself! :stirpot: For demographic purposes: There are 3 VWs listed

http://cartalk.com/content/features/Gay-Lesbian/Images/gay-title.gif (http://cartalk.com/content/features/Gay-Lesbian/nominations.html)

Elvis
10-05-06, 05:23 PM
Tom & Ray are cool! :cool:

Eric Kahn
10-05-06, 08:33 PM
My 95 Sedan Deville is averageing just under 18 MPG in city driving
my 2005 Passat wagon TDI is getting about 30 city and just over 35 highway with the AC running (stupid auto tranny, no choice on the Passat TDI)

Caddyshack100
10-05-06, 08:56 PM
Around my parts, all the VW 's that I see are tearing down the highway in the hammer lane doing 90 mph. It shows that a Diesel can keep up with the best, but at what a cost. Diesel is simply not worth the money. The cost of Diesel is high and so is the maintenance. I could not fathom why there were so many low mileage early 2000-2001-2002 Jettas and Passats on the Dealer lots, I found out that once out of warranty, these cars demand a kings ransom in repair bills.
Not to mention the fact that these things are noisy, yes even the so called new ones, and they will still belch out the black smoke on acceleration. Diesel exhaust stinks, even on the new ones, and if you don't think so, get behind one, even the Fords and GM and the Ratty one that Dodge uses all stink to high heaven. That is the price to pay for getting decent mileage in a Ram or a Excursion. Diesels are terrible in the cold weather, in my parts, don't even think of driving one without a block heater plug in sight, Once the temp dips, good luck starting it, even the new ones. One of the best car nicknames I heard applied to a VW TDI Teutonic Dumkoph Import.

I~LUV~Caddys8792
10-05-06, 10:29 PM
I actually like the way diesels smell...

Florian
10-05-06, 10:49 PM
Hey, dont call Jesda a "gay car". Umm, wait, I read that wrong.



F

Florian
10-05-06, 10:50 PM
I actually like the way diesels smell...

And quit hanging out at lesbian bars.....smell or no smell! :thehand:


F

Night Wolf
10-05-06, 11:45 PM
When it comes to fuel mileage.... a VW TDI is SUCH a better choice then any of the hybrids.

My friend has an '01 Jetta 1.8T 5spd, I like that car alot... I like the way it looks inside and out, I like the way it drives and I really like the gauges... its just an awesome car. I've thought about getting a simailr era ('99.5-'04?) Jetta (since I like them alot more then Golf... don't like hatckback) TDI and 5spd... I think it'd be a fun car and awesome on fuel... the 1.8T is really fun to drive and peppy for a small engine... but gas mileage was nearly the same as my Coupe.

Night Wolf
10-05-06, 11:56 PM
Around my parts, all the VW 's that I see are tearing down the highway in the hammer lane doing 90 mph. It shows that a Diesel can keep up with the best, but at what a cost. Diesel is simply not worth the money. The cost of Diesel is high and so is the maintenance. I could not fathom why there were so many low mileage early 2000-2001-2002 Jettas and Passats on the Dealer lots, I found out that once out of warranty, these cars demand a kings ransom in repair bills.
Not to mention the fact that these things are noisy, yes even the so called new ones, and they will still belch out the black smoke on acceleration. Diesel exhaust stinks, even on the new ones, and if you don't think so, get behind one, even the Fords and GM and the Ratty one that Dodge uses all stink to high heaven. That is the price to pay for getting decent mileage in a Ram or a Excursion. Diesels are terrible in the cold weather, in my parts, don't even think of driving one without a block heater plug in sight, Once the temp dips, good luck starting it, even the new ones. One of the best car nicknames I heard applied to a VW TDI Teutonic Dumkoph Import.

Maintenace on a diesel!?!?!?

Unless you have a 5hp Briggs&Straton under your hood, then they don't get any more low maintenace.

No spark plugs, no coil or distrubutor pack.... no ignition system at all... 1 of the 3 elements an engine needs to run on is elminenated.... the Cummins in the RAM's... change the oil and it runs and runs and runs... the VW TDI.... the only reccomended maintenace item that could even be a hassle is the timing belt, VW reccomends changing it every 60k.... I have no problem getting a timing belt changed every 60k miles on an engine that is reliable, trouble free, and returns 40-50mpg.

Diesel is more then gasoline right now... wasn't always the case. diesel seems to be right at the price of premium gasoline (which, in the case of VW, the 1.8T needs) so when you compare 26mpg on the highway from the 1.8T to the 45mpg on the highway from the TDI.... even tho the diesel is more, its still a whole lot more cost effective.

and the new VW TDI ("new" as in 2000-on... even the Mk. III Jetta TDI) are quiet, not noisy at all, and no black smoke upon acceleration.

PS - our '01 RAM 2500 work truck has the Cummins, and its freakin awesome... starting that beast up, then hitting the thorttle and it sounding like a semi-truck.... all too awesome.

davesdeville
10-06-06, 06:59 AM
I hate Priuses and love Diesels!

+1


I like VW's diesels, and of course their "unpimp ze auto" ads.


My wife's Z3 with the 2.5 I6 gets close to 30 mpg. Something like 33 on the highway. I realize it doesn't weigh anything, but that's still impressive to have that much torque and still be efficient.

Ford can't do that. :(

Honda can't do torque.

My 4.6 V8 Ford will average 30mpg as long as I obey the 75mph speed limit. 'Course an Expedition won't...

Elvis
10-06-06, 08:38 AM
My 4.6 V8 Ford will average 30mpg as long as I obey the 75mph speed limit. 'Course an Expedition won't...

I guess it's the weight, or lack thereof. People with that motor in the older Expeditions weren't happy with the efficiency OR the torque.

It's not a bad motor at all, just better suited for the sedans and lighter trucks, I guess. :confused:

dp102288
10-06-06, 09:07 AM
How is the pick up with diesels? Sadly, I have never been in one.

ShadowLvr400
10-06-06, 10:40 AM
Around my parts, all the VW 's that I see are tearing down the highway in the hammer lane doing 90 mph. It shows that a Diesel can keep up with the best, but at what a cost. Diesel is simply not worth the money. The cost of Diesel is high and so is the maintenance. I could not fathom why there were so many low mileage early 2000-2001-2002 Jettas and Passats on the Dealer lots, I found out that once out of warranty, these cars demand a kings ransom in repair bills.
Not to mention the fact that these things are noisy, yes even the so called new ones, and they will still belch out the black smoke on acceleration. Diesel exhaust stinks, even on the new ones, and if you don't think so, get behind one, even the Fords and GM and the Ratty one that Dodge uses all stink to high heaven. That is the price to pay for getting decent mileage in a Ram or a Excursion. Diesels are terrible in the cold weather, in my parts, don't even think of driving one without a block heater plug in sight, Once the temp dips, good luck starting it, even the new ones. One of the best car nicknames I heard applied to a VW TDI Teutonic Dumkoph Import.


As for the smell, welcome to our crappier diesel. Across the pond, their diesel is a lot cleaner.
On the black smoke, still see above, and that goes away if you switch to biodiesel. (Some say more efficient, some say less, it still runs the vehicle quite well and is easy to produce.)

The "ratty" one dodge uses? You mean the Cummins diesel, one of the toughest motors on the highway? With basic maintenance, that 6.0L I6 Diesel will outlast any other engine I've met. I've seen them well north of 300k on the clock without a rebuild. I've met one, with 1.2 million miles on, and he had 1 teardown at 620k. He said he wasn't going in yet for another. He'd been through like 5 trannies and 2 or 3 turboes, but his block was the original that came in the vehicle.

Rant over... I just am a strong diesel supporter.

ShadowLvr400
10-06-06, 10:48 AM
How is the pick up with diesels? Sadly, I have never been in one.



Depends on the vehicle. Benz''s E class wih the diesel is pretty punchy, running I think it was a 15.x on the 1/4. Also depends on the motor. With such a short rpm range, they tend to be long geared, so they have a linear pull. No waiting for power, but no "holy s***" spot. The Cummins is just a freight train, it pulls and pulls, but the vehicles are so big, they're not often hotrods. (Though my mom's 97 Ram 3500, would hit 100....) The Duramax is actually kind of a high winding diesel as I recall, giving the powerband something more like a gas motor, but once again, such a big engine and vehicle. Though they easily get tweaked into some very fast 1/4 miles. (Seen 12's on street trucks)

I actually plan on taking a 60-70's vehicle, and dropping one of the modern Cummins in it. 300 horse and 600 ft lbs with a tall 3.08 posi behind it in like a Lincoln Mark IV, I'd likely see high 20's on mileage, maybe even low 30's. When you think of the size of a Markv IV, and the 8-12 they get with the original big block. Plus thee diesel can be tweaked easily for more power...

ShadowLvr400
10-06-06, 10:50 AM
My 4.6 V8 Ford will average 30mpg as long as I obey the 75mph speed limit. 'Course an Expedition won't...



That's thanks to gearing too. The 4.6 is too small for any of the bigger trucks. Honestly I think it's too small for a hot full sized sedan even. (See Marauder) The engine's pretty nice but doesn't have the a$$ to it for a big vehicle.

Wiseguy2
10-07-06, 02:10 AM
The other nice thing about Diesels is that Diesel fuel takes quite a bit less crude to make than Gasoline. So not only does a Diesel use less fuel than a Gasoline powered car, but the fuel it uses requires less crude to create.

I think it was said that a Diesel uses 65% as much crude oil as a comparably-performing gasoline powered car.

HITMONEY
10-07-06, 05:37 AM
Damn Corvette gets etter MPG than my DTS. :(

I~LUV~Caddys8792
10-07-06, 08:29 AM
I actually plan on taking a 60-70's vehicle, and dropping one of the modern Cummins in it. 300 horse and 600 ft lbs with a tall 3.08 posi behind it in like a Lincoln Mark IV, I'd likely see high 20's on mileage, maybe even low 30's. When you think of the size of a Markv IV, and the 8-12 they get with the original big block. Plus thee diesel can be tweaked easily for more power...


Hmmmm.. I never considered a Cummins TD in a Mark IV. Interesting.. I always wanted to do a hi po 460 in one. Will a Cummins mount up all right?

AznPrydeRegalRyde
10-07-06, 08:32 AM
Damn Corvette gets etter MPG than my DTS. :(not to be pedantic, but thats only theoretically :)
if you know someone who gest better mpg's in a vette then your dts, then this 'owner' should be de-balled, de-cocked, and should have a small chinese gay man chisselling at his cranium for all of time

AznPrydeRegalRyde
10-07-06, 08:37 AM
Hmmmm.. I never considered a Cummins TD in a Mark IV. Interesting.. I always wanted to do a hi po 460 in one. Will a Cummins mount up all right?Cummins is a straight six, its a fair bit smaller then the 6L psd i had. I bet it would fit in the MarkIV really nice. ITs a much stronger diesel then what the Ford and Chevy use. Responds to mods better as welll. Did you know that Banks has the fastest pickup in the world? Not just fastest diesel, but fastest pickup, dead-stop. 222 mph, iirc. All on the Cummins. In a perfect world, Id have a Cummins mated to an Allison tranny from the Chev and all on a Ford hd chassis.

ShadowLVr400, I was one of those guys with diesel trucks in the 12's :)

I~LUV~Caddys8792
10-07-06, 08:55 AM
Yeah, but will the motor mounts from the cummins work with the Mark IV?


Now for the most important question:
What is the best Diesel, the Duramax, Cummins or Powerstroke?

ShadowLvr400
10-07-06, 10:10 AM
Aside from them all sounding like condoms.... I lean towards the Cummins. I might be coming a hair short on power next to the 2 8 cyl diesels, but it's got a reputation for being a tough engine. Most owners don't even consider the motor broken in until 300k. It's iron from one end to the other, has plenty of horse and torque to tow anything you ask, and is essentially a chopped down Semi motor. The Duramax is an Izuzu motor, and while well designed, is still too young to have the many years of history behind it. It has shown quite a bit of potential as a hotrod diesel, and it's also shown itself to be pretty stout, but not quite the workhorse of the Cummins. The Powerstroke I'll admit, I haven't heard much of anything about. It SEEMS that it's a solid motor, solid power, but nothing remarkable about it in any way. Which, there's nothing wrong with that.

My vote for best diesel is obviously the cummins. That straight 6 is a workhorse motor that's 2 inches away from immortal. It's got options for a lot of power, but it runs forever. Exactly what I want from a diesel.



As to the mounting of the Cummins into a Mark IV, custom engine mounts are almst a given. The key is the weight is close to the 460, and the engine bay is plenty big enough to work with. My only concern might be the height of the motor being a straight vs a V design.

dp102288
10-07-06, 10:12 AM
My dad's 1999 Corvette gets 22 mpg avg. The SLS gets 16 and my Eldo is about 17 now. The rest of our cars are below 18 mpg.

Caddyshack100
10-07-06, 04:49 PM
All points on Diesel are well taken, yes you would think as Rick says, there would be low maintanence as there are no plugs (just glow plugs) wires, and distributor cap, but the other stuff is more expensive, fuel filters, water separator, and why does a Diesel have a regular belt instead of a chain? I work for a huge company and we have all manners of vehicles, Diesel Pickups and Tractor Trailers, I have driven extensively the Dodge Ram with the 24v Inline 6 and I find it noisy and smelly and in winter terrible to start. I have driven the bigger cummins and some of the other cornbinder products, the Ford 6 liter powerstroke and its predecessor the 7.3 cornbinder are also some of the most smelly and noisy engines, try waiting in line for a coffee with one of these javex smelling marble rattlers. In a quiet neigbourhood, at 5 am try starting one. Your neighbors will be real impressed with you. Don't forget that in Europe since they love high taxes on gas and do it to encourage public transit, Diesel gets a lower tax break, I can assure you if they removed the hideous taxes of fuel then Diesel will Die. Over here, its only because the price of fuel spiked up that people are looking into it. There are far better options than Diesel.

danbuc
10-07-06, 05:22 PM
The 7.3L Powerstroke is crap....that is all.

Stoneage_Caddy
10-07-06, 06:37 PM
probalem with VW diesel is we wont see another one for almost 2 years , the mighty 1.9 TDI is gone after this model year ....we have to wait for a all new TDI that will meet the new EPA 07 regs ....which means amog other things ....EGR (exaust gas recirulation).....which so far on diesel engines has been quite promlematic ....

ShadowLvr400
10-07-06, 08:21 PM
On the issues of noise... You could easily take a LOT of the noise down on vehicles. Doing some soundproofing through the engine bay (Yes, I know, not sealed, it'll still help focus the noise in directions aside from the public around you) and some exhust work. I think a dual exhaust with crossover, mufflers, cats, and resonators would go a good ways. The Duramax is actually pretty quiet, until people gut the factory exhaust. On the smell, it's our diesel. High sulfur content. Biodiesel and better quality diesel would go a LONG way to fixing that one.

I~LUV~Caddys8792
10-07-06, 11:35 PM
Am I the only one who likes the way that Diesels smell? It must be something to do with going to transit bus garages when I was a kid..

Stoneage_Caddy
10-08-06, 12:35 AM
i dunno but ive been around them so much that i can tell a cummins from a detoirot from a navatstar just by the sound ...

i always like the scent of the old 2 stroke detroiter

dp102288
10-08-06, 08:19 AM
I like the sound of a big diesel truck. I still make that sound when I drive my car.

"grrrrrrr, grrrrrr, uh grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr"

I would love a diesel if I can use the grease from restaurants. I have 1 chinese food place, 1 burger king, 1 mcdonalds, 1 popeyes, and 1 kfc within 2 miles of my house.

ShadowLvr400
10-08-06, 10:07 AM
I work at one. We use about 15 gallons of oil a week. That'd be enough to keep my vehicle running on my usual daily use, with extra to stockpile.

AznPrydeRegalRyde
10-08-06, 11:17 AM
Aside from them all sounding like condoms.... I lean towards the Cummins. I might be coming a hair short on power next to the 2 8 cyl diesels, but it's got a reputation for being a tough engine. Most owners don't even consider the motor broken in until 300k. It's iron from one end to the other, has plenty of horse and torque to tow anything you ask, and is essentially a chopped down Semi motor. The Duramax is an Izuzu motor, and while well designed, is still too young to have the many years of history behind it. It has shown quite a bit of potential as a hotrod diesel, and it's also shown itself to be pretty stout, but not quite the workhorse of the Cummins. The Powerstroke I'll admit, I haven't heard much of anything about. It SEEMS that it's a solid motor, solid power, but nothing remarkable about it in any way. Which, there's nothing wrong with that.

My vote for best diesel is obviously the cummins. That straight 6 is a workhorse motor that's 2 inches away from immortal. It's got options for a lot of power, but it runs forever. Exactly what I want from a diesel.
Second that. Cummins is the diesel you want. Ive seen a few hit 350k, and Id bet theres alot doing better then that. The new PSD is much nicer,but yes, nothing remarkeable. Its still pretty young in its present design. There are alot of improvements, much more dureable. The biggest thing I was impressed with tho, was the hd tranny. I had a crapload of torque on that truck, and a stock tranny held up without any real noticeable slipping for about 80k that I had the truck. And I routinely used that torque. :)

Still want the Cummins tho, and isnt Cummins still Ford owned? Like I said, Cummins diesel mated to a Allison trannsmission from the Duramax, sitting on a F250 chassis...thats what I want.