I know this topic has probably been brought up alot of times but i just wanted to know engine wise wich engine is better? im not into performance but ive heard that the LO5's suck but like i said im not really into upgrading the engine just want a good running motor that wont be to expensive for parts. Thanks

If performance isn't an issue for you, the L05 will be a great motor. It's powerful enough for everyday use, but isn't the rocket that the LT1 is. The L05 is cheaper to maintain and easier to work on because of the simple throttle body setup, and it doesn't have that damned optispark distributor like the LT1 has. The L05 is the much more normal motor, it doesn't have that super high compression and reverse cooling like the LT1 has. Think of the LT1 as a Corvette motor detuned for use in the big boaty Fleetwood and the L05 is a simple truck motor..torquey and muscular.

The L05 doesn't "suck" one bit. For sure, it doesn't have the extra little bit of grunt natural to the LT1, but it's VERY strong. I've said it before, and I'll say it again. In daily driving, our '93 L05 Fleetwood still feels like it has a more solid, meatier power range and easily chirps the tires (trust me...).

On the other hand, the LT1 does seem to rev a little quicker and more freely, and has a bit more power higher up, but not massively so. An LT1 is quicker, definately, but the difference just isn't as shocking as some would say, at least not in my experiences. Furthermore, as was said, the maintenance costs for both are pretty low compared to most cars, but the L05 is a LOT moreso than the LT1 (cheaper water pumps, MUCH cheaper distributers and parts, etc.)--but both are about as reliable as anything out there. I think both of our L05 cars get a bit better gas mileage than my LT1 as well.

Also of mention, the LT1 has more "potential" right out of the box, and there's a ton of quick and easy bolt-ons that make a pretty noticeable difference. Being a Chevy 350, there's a ton you can do with an L05 as well, just not as much in the way of bolt-ons or reprogramming like you can with the LT1.

I love both, for their own reasons, and each has pros & cons, but the L05 definately does NOT suck. For a lot of people, if it doesn't have an LT1, they won't even look at it...but I seriously recommend at least driving both, or only one if it's what you happen to find, and see what you think.

For example, I'd love to have an L05 '91-92 Brougham, but if I was to go with the newer Brougham, it would have to be the LT1.

Sounds to me like you'd be just as happy with either engine. Might as well take the 93. However, if you're interested in resale value - the LT1 would be better..

If you find a car you like at the right price, forget about the engine. Owning both (and a Roadmaster), we knew the drivetrain differences between the older and newer models going in, and finding all LT1's would have been dandy, but we instead just found cars that we loved and went with them. I was actually casually looking for another '93 this past winter due to price and my experience with one, and just so happened to stumble upon a beautiful '95 at the right price and in the best shape of any FW I've seen--it was just icing on the cake that it was also a "newer" model with the updates and LT1. Not a regret in the least on any of them.

Yes, the LT1's are more in demand, are a tad more modern, and have a higher power potential, but on a daily driver, the difference between that and a cheaper to buy and cheaper to maintain L05 is nill.

thanks alot everybody for the inputs really helpful but yeah i just got rid of my 96 and now i miss it, and there happens to be a 93 up for sale its quite expensive but ill see what i can work out

Well, coming from a '96 you already know all about the feel of a newer LT1 model, so even just finding a good '93 to drive and see IF it's even something you'd like (no reason it shouldn't be, but you never know).

If this '93 checks out, and it's the kind of combo (options, color, etc.) you'd go for, I don't see a reason why not to get serious. But always keep your eye out for others, as they're hard to find, but sometimes pop up in an instant and in the weirdest places.

Other than the powetrain, there's no real difference between a '93 and a '96 that you'd really notice, other than the somewhat smaller door skin mounted mirrors, the different style steering wheel, and...that's about it;)

I'll just say this...........there's a reason why they only used that engine in the '93s and they switched to LT1 for 94-96.

I don't think they suck but there's almost no price difference between them. Overall the 94-96 is better, if your not willing to settle for less then don't :thumbsup:

Caddycruiser did buy a 95 fleetwood btw not a 93 with the old engine. I would've done the same thing too.

I'll just say this...........there's a reason why they only used that engine in the '93s and they switched to LT1 for 94-96.

Caddycruiser did buy a 95 fleetwood btw not a 93 with the old engine. I would've done the same thing too.

...only because, like I said, it was what I found. The first time around, we happily went with a '93 L05 Fleetwood, and that's still what we have and love it.

The LT1 is awesome, granted, but having the same car with each powertrain for some time now, it wouldn't be a deal killer either way if buying another. The only reason the '93 was "unique" with the L05 was because they just weren't ready, and without the full capacity yet, to have the LT1 in the B/D bodies until '94...but the rest of the Fleetwood itself was set to go (plus the L05 had been in some Broughams before, so it was a natural use).


I don't think they suck but there's almost no price difference between them. Overall the 94-96 is better, if your not willing to settle for less then don't :thumbsup:

Still, agreed, and I do like the newer LT1 more overall in the car, as well as some little things like the better mirrors and such.
______________
You just need to check one out in PERSON and DRIVE it, and see for yourself:thumbsup:

Sounds like the L05 is fine for you, no mods planned or power appetite. Being the L05 has an abundance of low end torque, you will be happy driving it. LT1's are great engines, they have thier "issues", but overall are one of the absolute most reliable engines GM has ever made. L05's have some not so great heads, the Vortec heads are $400 new from GM and if you have to do any work on the heads, these make a great low cost 40 hp upgrade while keeping fuel economy up if not improving it. So if you are doing a valve job one day, ditch the lousy L05 heads and go Vortec, you won't regret it.

I do have one and love to play and tweak (I do my own PCM tuning for the LT1), doing experiements and refining the tune, shift points, etc. You can do that on the L05, but it isn't near as easy, as you need to use replaceable EPROMS that you program on a programmer/burner. The LT1 was first engine to get flash EEPROMs.

The new mirrors didn't show up til 1995, so my 1994 LT1 has the 93 mirrors and armrest.

But you can make it a bargaining point. I paid $3800 for a good shape 1994 with nearly every possible option (missing only Astroroof, chrome wheels, homelink, sungate windshield and full size spare tire), so unless there is something REALLY special about the car, don't pay a huge amount. Mine did have 142K miles on it, but well taken care of, as it shows, I am at 199600 now and runs wonderful. Mine is even a V4P car, which is the 7000# tow package car. So it comes with 3.42 gears and a firmer shifting trans with higher shift points and firmer suspension (FE2, which was available on lots of FW's). Hurt mpg some, so it isn't for everyone. But the power is fantastic!

I bought mine for reliability of the drivetrain. The Small Block Chevy 350 has been made since 1968 to present (not in auto production, but still made for over the counter sales), so it has a LOT of expertise dialled into it. The transmission is the 4L60E (new in 1994, 1993 had the 4L60), which is the old THM350 redesigned with OD and a short first gear to help move big barges like the Fleetwood to help improve mileage. Again, a lot of engineering man years went into this trans. So it isn't perfect, it has a long history and has proven to be pretty reliable.

The 4L60 is old school TV cable controlled (more accurate than vacuum modulator and not affected by altitude), the 4L60E is electronically controlled by the PCM. The old THM350/375/400/425/475 are all vacuum modulator controlled in comparisson. The vacuum modulator shows up on some trans up through the mid 90's (4T60's) but it used only for pressure control, not for shifting anymore.

The frame, brakes, rear axle and front suspension date back to 1970 (front end and rear end), 1973 for the frame and rear suspension. Again, lots of tweaks over the years to make it a good solid frame design.

These are some of my reasoning for the car I have.... I drive a lot, 120 miles a day, so it has to be reliable and comfortable. Can't beat a Fleetwood!

I TEST DROVE A '95 AND '96 AND I COULD NOT TELL ANY DIFFERENCE FROM MY '93, WHICH I MIGHT ADD WAS A FUNERAL PARLOR CREAMPUFF.:tisk:

THE LT1 HAS BEEN PROBLEM LADEN. IF YOU FIND AN LO5, LOW MILES, SUPER CLEAN, DO NOT HESITATE TO BUY IT.:bouncy:

The L05 is cheaper to maintain and easier to work on because of the simple throttle body setup, and it doesn't have that damned optispark distributor like the LT1 has.
IMO both engines are not too bad to maintain.
The optispark has a BAD reputation, but that is mainly due to the older 1992-4 NON-VENTED optispark found only on the Vette, Camaro/Firebird (B and D bodies never got the non-vented opti). This older design didn't release moisture and failed, and unfortunately gave the opti a bad rep (unfairly IMHO).
It is a Maintenance-free distributor (and SStealth on this forum has over 300,000 miles on his original opti).
I like my opti.

The L05 is the much more normal motor, it doesn't have that super high compression and reverse cooling like the LT1 has.
The LT1 10.5:1 is high compression? The compression and reverse cooling allows the LT1 to produce 260HP and 330 ft./lbs of torque at 2400 RPMs on 87 octane gas. Still blows clean emissions and gets 17/25 gas mileage.
The cast iron heads on the LT1, contrary to popular belief, actually flow better than their aluminum counterparts found on the F-body. In 1996 the alum heads finally flowed the same as the iron heads, and in 1997 surpassed the iron flow.

Think of the LT1 as a Corvette motor detuned for use in the big boaty Fleetwood and the L05 is a simple truck motor..torquey and muscular.

I'll agree here - but don't cut out the LT1 for "muscle" and "torque" since that is basically what the iron-headed LT1 was 'detuned' for. 330 ft./lbs at only 2400 RPMs is nothing to scoff at. :thumbsup:

Regarding the compression, the LO5 has a 9.8:1 compression in 1992 and 1991, and 9.3:1 in 1990. I don't know about 1993, but I'm assuming it's the same as 1992. The swirl-port heads from an LO5 are actually decent heads, contrary to popular opinion. The guys over at the thirdgen.org forums have done plenty of bench testing and porting and polishing with them. You can check out their research, it was a sticky the last time I checked.

I'll agree here - but don't cut out the LT1 for "muscle" and "torque" since that is basically what the iron-headed LT1 was 'detuned' for. 330 ft./lbs at only 2400 RPMs is nothing to scoff at. :thumbsup:


Amen!

Mine is about to roll 200K here probably later this week. Gotta plan on a run to make it roll the 200K at 100 mph.... :)

I think a lot of the Opti bad info is just that, bad info. Yes, the early ones were problematic, but the later ones have proven very reliable. Can you run 200K on the stock L05 distributor without touching a thing? Doubt it....


IMO both engines are not too bad to maintain.
The optispark has a BAD reputation, but that is mainly due to the older 1992-4 NON-VENTED optispark found only on the Vette, Camaro/Firebird (B and D bodies never got the non-vented opti). This older design didn't release moisture and failed, and unfortunately gave the opti a bad rep (unfairly IMHO).
It is a Maintenance-free distributor (and SStealth on this forum has over 300,000 miles on his original opti).
I like my opti.


The LT1 10.5:1 is high compression? The compression and reverse cooling allows the LT1 to produce 260HP and 330 ft./lbs of torque at 2400 RPMs on 87 octane gas. Still blows clean emissions and gets 17/25 gas mileage.
The cast iron heads on the LT1, contrary to popular belief, actually flow better than their aluminum counterparts found on the F-body. In 1996 the alum heads finally flowed the same as the iron heads, and in 1997 surpassed the iron flow.



I'll agree here - but don't cut out the LT1 for "muscle" and "torque" since that is basically what the iron-headed LT1 was 'detuned' for. 330 ft./lbs at only 2400 RPMs is nothing to scoff at. :thumbsup:

IMO both engines are not too bad to maintain.
The optispark has a BAD reputation, but that is mainly due to the older 1992-4 NON-VENTED optispark found only on the Vette, Camaro/Firebird (B and D bodies never got the non-vented opti). This older design didn't release moisture and failed, and unfortunately gave the opti a bad rep (unfairly IMHO).
It is a Maintenance-free distributor (and SStealth on this forum has over 300,000 miles on his original opti).
I like my opti.

True, the Optispark is a super long lasting distributor. 150k is not a problem on that distributor. My Roadmaster had 138k when I bought it, and I think the distributor was original. Anyways, it still worked great. But when you do need a new distributor, it's gonna be quite expensive ~$350 at least for part if you go thru Jegs or Summit Racing.com, more if you have it done at a dealer. Plus labor on that is not cheap! And it's quite inaccessible. Is it true that if the water pump goes on an LT1, the Optispark is junk too? I thought I heard that somewhere but I may be mistaken.


The LT1 10.5:1 is high compression? The compression and reverse cooling allows the LT1 to produce 260HP and 330 ft./lbs of torque at 2400 RPMs on 87 octane gas. Still blows clean emissions and gets 17/25 gas mileage.
The cast iron heads on the LT1, contrary to popular belief, actually flow better than their aluminum counterparts found on the F-body. In 1996 the alum heads finally flowed the same as the iron heads, and in 1997 surpassed the iron flow.

I always thought that 10.5:1 was high compression for any "normal" gasoline engine, but thanks to the dual knock sensors, only 87 octane is needed, not the "91" that's needed in my 4.9 with 9.0:1 compression (atleast I think that's what the ratio is, maybe it's 8.5:1). Plus, between the 279 cid Northstar '95 deVille Concours and the 350cid 4400 lb '96 FWB, the FWB was rated better at 17/26, whereas the smaller Northstar in the lighter deVille was rated at 16/25 in the early models. But by '96, the Northstar was rated at 17/26, and it just kept getting better, in the '02 Eldorado, it was rated at 18/27, which I believe is the same as a '97+ Park Avenue Ultra with the SC3800. But the power in the LT1 is pretty much unmatched by any other modern V8 short of the 7.4 and the 8.1. The torque peaks way down low at 2400, and the HP peaks at 5200 RPM I believe, which is about ~400 RPM from redline, so this motor has a very wide powerband.



I'll agree here - but don't cut out the LT1 for "muscle" and "torque" since that is basically what the iron-headed LT1 was 'detuned' for. 330 ft./lbs at only 2400 RPMs is nothing to scoff at. :thumbsup:

The L05 to me, feels more torquey because it doesn't have the wide powerband of the LT1. All of it's power is bottom end, whereas the LT1 has the power everywhere! Plus, I think the L05's redline is around 45-4600 and the LT1's is 5500 in the iron head LT1, and I think it's higher in the F-Body/Corvette LT1.

Is it true that if the water pump goes on an LT1, the Optispark is junk too? I thought I heard that somewhere but I may be mistaken.

Not necessarily. The issue is that the water pump is directly over top the Opti, so if and when it starts to weep or leak, if you don't catch it early enough, then that spillage onto the Opti can kill it. Not a guarantee thing, especially not if you're aware of what state everything is in on the car and check things periodically. In this case, when and if you notice a weep, it's time to jump into action.

As far as the Opti itself, Bill Sadler's '94 is one famous example of making it well past 300k on the original--something, like N0DIH said, isn't likely to happen with the more typical distributor system like an L05 has--so even being more expensive to fix/replace, it usually doesn't have to be done as often. But still, a pain in the arse to get to and work on, when needed, that's for sure.

The short block (minus cam) is identical B/D/F body. Y bodies got 4 bolt mains. And all service replacement blocks got 4 bolt mains as well.

A new Opti from Dal is only around $220-$250 when I checked last. And that is GM's latest revision. I haven't heard fantastic results yet from the MSD replacement. and it is $500. The Delteq coil on plug/Northstart coil style is nice, but also very $$. $/Mile, you can beat an Opti!

The 7.4/8.1 have a lot of power, but won't rev as well as an LT1. I know, I have one in my 99 Suburban K2500 Vortec 7400. It has power galore, but doesn't like to rev over 4500 rpm. They say (teamchevelle.com) that a ZZ502 cam in a L29 454 is an awesome combo.

It isn't easy to widen a powerband. I still think the LT1 B/D cars needs more lift, and maybe a few degrees more duration. I think the RamJet 350 cam/HT383 cam would be a great swap. But someone on FullSizeChevy.com said that that cam vs stock Vortec cam (which is VERY close to LT1 B/D cam) made almost no more power. Makes one wonder why.

HP is controlled by lift, Duration is where it makes the power. And the more rpm, the more chances to make more hp. So that is why larger cams make more power in most cases, until the restrictions come in and hurt power.

True, the Optispark is a super long lasting distributor. 150k is not a problem on that distributor. My Roadmaster had 138k when I bought it, and I think the distributor was original. Anyways, it still worked great. But when you do need a new distributor, it's gonna be quite expensive ~$350 at least for part if you go thru Jegs or Summit Racing.com, more if you have it done at a dealer. Plus labor on that is not cheap! And it's quite inaccessible. Is it true that if the water pump goes on an LT1, the Optispark is junk too? I thought I heard that somewhere but I may be mistaken.



I always thought that 10.5:1 was high compression for any "normal" gasoline engine, but thanks to the dual knock sensors, only 87 octane is needed, not the "91" that's needed in my 4.9 with 9.0:1 compression (atleast I think that's what the ratio is, maybe it's 8.5:1). Plus, between the 279 cid Northstar '95 deVille Concours and the 350cid 4400 lb '96 FWB, the FWB was rated better at 17/26, whereas the smaller Northstar in the lighter deVille was rated at 16/25 in the early models. But by '96, the Northstar was rated at 17/26, and it just kept getting better, in the '02 Eldorado, it was rated at 18/27, which I believe is the same as a '97+ Park Avenue Ultra with the SC3800. But the power in the LT1 is pretty much unmatched by any other modern V8 short of the 7.4 and the 8.1. The torque peaks way down low at 2400, and the HP peaks at 5200 RPM I believe, which is about ~400 RPM from redline, so this motor has a very wide powerband.




The L05 to me, feels more torquey because it doesn't have the wide powerband of the LT1. All of it's power is bottom end, whereas the LT1 has the power everywhere! Plus, I think the L05's redline is around 45-4600 and the LT1's is 5500 in the iron head LT1, and I think it's higher in the F-Body/Corvette LT1.

But when you do need a new distributor, it's gonna be quite expensive ~$350 at least for part if you go thru Jegs or Summit Racing.com, more if you have it done at a dealer. Plus labor on that is not cheap! And it's quite inaccessible. Is it true that if the water pump goes on an LT1, the Optispark is junk too? I thought I heard that somewhere but I may be mistaken.

Caddycruiser and NODIH already stated it pretty well...
Through Dal the GM parts guru, a new opti is only $225 brand new (GM part).
Labor is not too bad, the water pump and crank balancer need to be removed (three bolts in balancer). The WP has six bolts and the AIR pump has to come off because it shares one of these bolts.

The water pump -- if it leaks from the weep hole -- can get the opti wet. But it is mostly sealed and can take some moisture abuse. Lots of guys have saturated their optis and had it go many more miles. But a few guys (like caddycruiser mentioned) who don't regularly check under the hood or fix a problem right away end up damaging their opti for good (or worse, I guess it is). It all boils down to common sense, as with anything in life!

All of it's power is bottom end, whereas the LT1 has the power everywhere! Plus, I think the L05's redline is around 45-4600 and the LT1's is 5500 in the iron head LT1, and I think it's higher in the F-Body/Corvette LT1.

http://www.badbodies.com/tech/LT1_curves.jpg

The Corvette curve is interesting isn't it. It keeps up with a B/D torque curve and bests it even, where the F Body doesn't. Same cam and heads. Exhaust and intake flow and tuning being the differences.

And people wonder why my tuning is a mix of Y and V4P code.... With my own fun mixed in....