: Diff Cradle Bolts



lawfive
09-03-06, 08:25 PM
This topic hasn't received much love lately, so...

Anybody else out there notice that their cradle bolts loosen substantially even after using Loctite, and without driving too hard? My baby was starting to clunk awfully bad, so I got underneath and found that it took two full turns (!!) just to tighten the fronts to 150, which is as high as my torque wrench will go. Last time I went down under was around six months ago. (We're still talking cars here.)

How often are you guys torquing down the cradle bolts? How about the diff-to-cradle bolts? Other bolts that need routine love?

This would be a good time for Reed or someone to chime in with the MIL-SPEC torque specifications...

jpr
09-03-06, 08:48 PM
Are the bolts backing out or streching? My dealer tells me to be careful, they have TORN the captive mounting points for the cradle bolts from the cars body tighting them to spec torque. When they metioned this to the factory they said "oh yea that can happen" and they they had to dissaseble half the car to reweld new nuts to accept the bolts.

Jpr

lawfive
09-03-06, 09:40 PM
.
.....:eek:
.

Lindsay Cadillac
09-03-06, 09:51 PM
torque specifications...
Torque specifications for the cradle bolts;

Front: 195 lb-ft
Rear: 141 lb-ft

1QUICKV
09-03-06, 09:59 PM
hey i posted about this a while ago and no hits. but i learned it the hard way and broke the rear right bolt. mostly because it came lose, due to the fact that the other one was lose too. I've since replaced the three of them because of all the pressure. it's a pain in the ass to get the back two bolts out because you have to drop the sub frame to back them out. or you can cut two holes in the spare tire holder which i refused to do. mine have since been and stayed tight. but since i add the pinion brace i retighten them...:thumbsup: and if you locktighten them i can't see them coming out at all...:confused: replace the bolts, you don't want them to break

well this is my story on the "diff-to-cradle"
cradle to frame don't have that problem "let"

CVP33
09-04-06, 12:26 AM
You guys are working WAY too hard to keep your cars running and feeling right. I was there once too. Isn't anyone else pissed off that you have to continually:

1) Re-tighten suspension bolts
2) Watch your parking brake on inclines
3) Be carefull that your transmission doesn't jump out of gear
4) Struggle with getting your transmission into reverse
5) Flush your rear differential
6) Check for black residue in your clutch reservior
7) Check for a leaking radiator
8) Check for a leaking rear differential

Uh oh, I think I've got some bad reputation points coming. Crap. Please don't take it out on me. Take it out on GM. Tell them what you think and expect from a $50,000 performance sedan.

I've yet to wrench on my SRT-8 accept for oil changes that I prefer to do myself. No leaks, no bolts backing out, no hopping, no peeling buttons, no leaking radiators and no recalls yet.

hurley64
09-04-06, 01:02 AM
You guys are working WAY too hard to keep your cars running and feeling right. I was there once too. Isn't anyone else pissed off that you have to continually:

1) Re-tighten suspension bolts
2) Watch your parking brake on inclines
3) Be carefull that your transmission doesn't jump out of gear
4) Struggle with getting your transmission into reverse
5) Flush your rear differential
6) Check for black residue in your clutch reservior
7) Check for a leaking radiator
8) Check for a leaking rear differential

Uh oh, I think I've got some bad reputation points coming. Crap. Please don't take it out on me. Take it out on GM. Tell them what you think and expect from a $50,000 performance sedan.

I've yet to wrench on my SRT-8 accept for oil changes that I prefer to do myself. No leaks, no bolts backing out, no hopping, no peeling buttons, no leaking radiators and no recalls yet.

300Cs are for rappers...are you a rapper?

CVP33
09-04-06, 01:07 AM
300Cs are for rappers...are you a rapper?

Why yes. Yes I am. Are you are racist? Clearly you've already answered my question. :) :thehand: Nice try, but I've been baited by more clever members than you. I also noticed you didn't try to refute any of the inherent "quirks" with the V. A wise choice.

calicadi
09-04-06, 02:21 AM
You guys are working WAY too hard to keep your cars running and feeling right. I was there once too. Isn't anyone else pissed off that you have to continually:

1) Re-tighten suspension bolts
2) Watch your parking brake on inclines
3) Be carefull that your transmission doesn't jump out of gear
4) Struggle with getting your transmission into reverse
5) Flush your rear differential
6) Check for black residue in your clutch reservior
7) Check for a leaking radiator
8) Check for a leaking rear differential

Uh oh, I think I've got some bad reputation points coming. Crap. Please don't take it out on me. Take it out on GM. Tell them what you think and expect from a $50,000 performance sedan.

I've yet to wrench on my SRT-8 accept for oil changes that I prefer to do myself. No leaks, no bolts backing out, no hopping, no peeling buttons, no leaking radiators and no recalls yet.

I haven't experienced any of these in my '04. I did have some creaks and groans from the front and a clunk in the rear. When I took it to the dealer I asked them to check torque on the cradle, the diff and check front-end suspension. The groans returned later and I traced it to the sway bar, everything else was OK and hasn't been a problem since. The sway bar I took care of with the Hotchkis replacement which has zerk fittings so you can keep it lubed and quiet. I wanted a stiffer sway bar any way so win-win.

I think I've had three recalls. A rubber hose, a washer and a air bag safety check. For non-recall related, warranty work: I did have a battery die. My '04 is an early build (one of the first two to arrive in Northern California - Benjet has the other one) and it had the weak clutch. It's something you wouldn't notice unless you shift at over 5000 RPM. Also had a trunk latch that was a little gimpy and had the oil temp guage reprogrammed.

That's all pretty minor stuff and the service needs of the car far exceed my expectations.

hurley64
09-04-06, 02:25 AM
Why yes. Yes I am. Are you are racist? Clearly you've already answered my question. :) :thehand: Nice try, but I've been baited by more clever members than you. I also noticed you didn't try to refute any of the inherent "quirks" with the V. A wise choice.


Hmm, a racist, i think not...guess u ddint know Eminem was white? or did u mean racist in the other direction?

Whatever, would never consider the 300C, and do a search, plenty of problems with them too.

Most hi-perf cars do have problems no matter what or who makes em. BMW M3, Porsche 996/997, to name a few.

rand49er
09-04-06, 05:53 AM
Hmm, a racist, i think not...guess u ddint know Eminem was white? or did u mean racist in the other direction?

Whatever, would never consider the 300C, and do a search, plenty of problems with them too.

Most hi-perf cars do have problems no matter what or who makes em. BMW M3, Porsche 996/997, to name a few.Hurley, can I give you some advice? Give it up, dude, he's cool. Besides, Chris eats newbies between meals. Plus, we all know he needs to grind his axe with Caddy occasionally. :stirpot:

CVP33
09-04-06, 06:22 AM
Hurley, can I give you some advice? Give it up, dude, he's cool. Besides, Chris eats newbies between meals. Plus, we all know he needs to grind his axe with Caddy occasionally. :stirpot:

When I think back at all the aggravation that my V's caused me I get pissed. When I hear/see our forum members/enthusiasts talking about what they have to go to get service or to service their vehicles themselves to keep them roadworthy I become incensed. My indictment is not against V owners. If you read my post, I'm clearly putting the blame on GM.

The "rapper" comment has NOTHING to do with our cars, their performance or trying to help one another. That's why it warranted my retort.

JonCR96Z
09-04-06, 11:58 AM
Your "racist" comment has NOTHING to do with ours cars either. Not only that but, how many times have you posted in a thread to say something or joke around and it been completely off topic. I can think of one, its post #6 in this thread. I can understand that you've been there and done that, and if you're tired of GM, thats fine.

I would say that about half of your posts are anti GM and I wouldn't care one bit if you just took that crap somewhere else. Why don't you go back to the srt8 board. Oh wait, you got kicked out of there, must have been your charming personality. Seriously, you know plenty about Vs and I'm sure you could be of some help to someone here, but there is already enough information here about the problems of the V, it is a handful. People should do more research before they buy, but by the time they join this board its too late. So feel free to tone it down with the anti GM crap or just stay in the lounge.

wildwhl
09-04-06, 12:26 PM
I find it interesting that people have to retorque cradle bolts. I haven't had to since getting them as tight as they're supposed to be the first time. I've also not had black clutch fluid since I received a "free clutch" on a TSB - something my maggied V was due for anyway. I do take care of my rear differential because I've learned that by doing so it can handle substantially more than 500HP. The other items - well - you missed some. Poor quality interior bits that fall apart, NAV system that freaks out at times, rearview mirror that always seems so show the car that was in front of you fading away :histeric:

I do, however, agree with some of CVP's sentiments. I'm a a racist too - I hate Dr. Z and his vehicles. The fact is, some of us have chosen to live with the issues the V has - and I do so gladly.

However, Chris is correct, we shouldn't have to on a car of this caliber. GM did a pretty good job building this $50,000 sports sedan. I did a really damn good job earning the money it took to buy it, as I'm sure most other V owners did. The little quirks are the only thing keeping me from buying a Z06 today.

Listening GM? And those that don't want to hear the anti-GM sentiments on the V forum - my flame suit is on. The V has far, far too many reasons to go into service for these comments not to be made.

WW (hungover and cranky)

JonCR96Z
09-04-06, 12:42 PM
CVP33 did exactly what he should have done, sold the V and bought something else. Just as everyone else who hates dealing with the V or anything else. I realize that isn't as it sounds due to the low resale value of it, but thats life. Like I said earlier research before you buy. I also am aware that some people here bought the car before their was much info about it, and those people are always at risk of buying a lemon.

WW in your case, you say that you live with the issues and do so gladly. Yet, you go on to complain. Doesn't sound like your so glad. It would be different if you said that you'll deal with so you don't lose your ass on a trade-in, but you didn't.

GM probably knows the problems of the V. Hopefully they will deal with them on the new model, whenever that comes out. I'm sure that whatever reason they ignored had some thought behind it, because it does give them a bad name.

I propose that if you want to keep on about GM then just start a new thread and sticky it. I

wildwhl
09-04-06, 01:45 PM
JonCR96Z-

I don't believe I complained, simply stated fact. Keeping auto buyers loyal takes work - and this is where the dealer service network and GM quality in the original build is lacking. I have no intent to trade in my heavily modified vehicle - she's here to stay. Time to add to the fleet. Even made room in the garage this weekend. Just can't bring myself to pull the trigger on another GM vehicle yet. Waiting patiently for time to change my mind. Besides, if GM doesn't get honest feedback, how do they improve :confused:

I know all too well how the Chrysler vehicles hold up. Having two in my past (two too many) was enough for me. No need to go there. The title of this thread keeps on about GM and build quality issues well enough by itself. No need to sticky it - the diff thread has that covered :thumbsup:

Glad you enjoy your V. Trust me, it takes thick skin to like this car - and keep liking it.

Now, where are those bunnies?

WW

CVP33
09-04-06, 01:51 PM
Your "racist" comment has NOTHING to do with ours cars either. Not only that but, how many times have you posted in a thread to say something or joke around and it been completely off topic. I can think of one, its post #6 in this thread. I can understand that you've been there and done that, and if you're tired of GM, thats fine.

I would say that about half of your posts are anti GM and I wouldn't care one bit if you just took that crap somewhere else. Why don't you go back to the srt8 board. Oh wait, you got kicked out of there, must have been your charming personality. Seriously, you know plenty about Vs and I'm sure you could be of some help to someone here, but there is already enough information here about the problems of the V, it is a handful. People should do more research before they buy, but by the time they join this board its too late. So feel free to tone it down with the anti GM crap or just stay in the lounge.


John,

The rapper comment was unhelpful. My post #6 is trying to get you V owners to do something to help yourselves. Half my posts are anti-GM because GM knows they have a problem and they do nothing for you enthusiasts. I've never been on any SRT-8 board, I think you meant 300C forums. Of which many folks here and elsewhere have been kicked off. Talk about off-topic.

I guess when your sunroof begins to leak you'll gladly read through a "do-it-yourself" thread of how to fix it with duct tape. Then you'll all lament how you can't enjoy the V in the rain anymore. Why would you put up with another "quirk" that dimmenses the value and enjoyment of your car? Why would you gladly re-tighten and re-torque parts that SHOULD stay in place?

If you and others have a "beef" with me than that's fine. But remember I didn't design your V, sell you your V, deny your warranty claim or kill your resale value. I only pointed out what's causing all that. Shoot the messenger if you must but listen to the message and do something!

wildwhl
09-04-06, 01:52 PM
More direct answer to Lawfive's original question.

Everytime I'm under the car I check the cradle bolts and diff to cradle bolts. What I've found is the front torsion rod bolts (where you'd mount your BMR AWH bar) often back out a touch, even though I've replaced the nuts with locking style nuts.

Conclusion? There are serious strains being placed on that point of the suspension - compounded by the fact that I drive hard and push the envelope every day. Watch those bolts.

The diff to cradle bolts always seem tight enough - but the bushings only last so long. Wish it was an easy DIY replacement - but dropping the diff isn't all that much fun. Convincing the dealer to replace those bushings isn't a walk in the park either. If only I had a CNC mill or a water jet to cut some trick parts to lock things up back there :nono:

WW

CVP33
09-04-06, 01:59 PM
I agree with WW's comments. If they're breaking through the loctite those bolts are under some serious stress. I'm surprised we aren't hearing/seeing some bolts just break. My bushings wore out three times in just under 30,000 miles. I'd know when they were going by the metal on metal "thunking" in the rear diff'. What has been your experience WW?

wildwhl
09-04-06, 02:18 PM
To be honest, I have been under there so often this summer trying some new mod or another, tweaking ride height, or ??? that they don't go very long before being checked anymore. You're right though, CVP, the metal to metal thunking is a for sure sign of wasted bushings. They really need to be of a more durable material despite the fact it will add NVH. Customers will be happier with a little road noise vs. repeated service visits for the same issue.

When all is tight and bushings are new - the car is perfect. Seriously. Sloppy shifting can get you the driveline clunk from the dual mass clutch and 2 piece driveshaft loading/unloading.

When the bushings wear - clunk, clunk, clunk.

If any of the bolts are improperly torqued you'll also get a clunk. I have Spectreworks cradle bushings and all is silent back there anymore. In fact, wheelhop is basically gone - or gone enough that I don't worry about it.

I doubt any of these bolts could break or sheer - but I do know this. My dealer was unaware of the torque specs until I pointed them out. They'd been torquing cradle bolts and the other two bolts in question to 65 ft lbs because it seemed logical to them. They were also getting several complaints of groaning/clunking/squeaking after they'd been in there for (diff/seals/other) and didn't understand why.

I showed them from somewhere (.faq?) last summer the actual specs. Each time I've been in since I get a thanks from the service manager. He's a good guy.

So, I'm off on a tangent, but it relates back to the threadjack this has become - quality of service. It depends hugely on the dealer. Mine went from crap to pretty darn good in 2 short years, all because a service manage and service writer showed up who gave a damn about an enthusiast car.

Things can change - and they are. Let's hope GM sees it and does the right thing at the factory. I've driven a new C6 quite a bit - and it is a friggin' great car. Not just good - great. Yes, it has a plastic american interior - but it is the best plastic interior I've seen in an american car.

Wow - my ears are still ringing, my gut is growling, and my head hurts.

Feels like I'm :horse:

WW

PS - wonder if I can't turn some polyurethane and make my own busings ;)

rbrown81
09-04-06, 04:46 PM
To be honest, I have been under there so often this summer trying some new mod or another, tweaking ride height, or ??? that they don't go very long before being checked anymore. You're right though, CVP, the metal to metal thunking is a for sure sign of wasted bushings. They really need to be of a more durable material despite the fact it will add NVH. Customers will be happier with a little road noise vs. repeated service visits for the same issue.

When all is tight and bushings are new - the car is perfect. Seriously. Sloppy shifting can get you the driveline clunk from the dual mass clutch and 2 piece driveshaft loading/unloading.

When the bushings wear - clunk, clunk, clunk.

If any of the bolts are improperly torqued you'll also get a clunk. I have Spectreworks cradle bushings and all is silent back there anymore. In fact, wheelhop is basically gone - or gone enough that I don't worry about it.

I doubt any of these bolts could break or sheer - but I do know this. My dealer was unaware of the torque specs until I pointed them out. They'd been torquing cradle bolts and the other two bolts in question to 65 ft lbs because it seemed logical to them. They were also getting several complaints of groaning/clunking/squeaking after they'd been in there for (diff/seals/other) and didn't understand why.

I showed them from somewhere (.faq?) last summer the actual specs. Each time I've been in since I get a thanks from the service manager. He's a good guy.

So, I'm off on a tangent, but it relates back to the threadjack this has become - quality of service. It depends hugely on the dealer. Mine went from crap to pretty darn good in 2 short years, all because a service manage and service writer showed up who gave a damn about an enthusiast car.

Things can change - and they are. Let's hope GM sees it and does the right thing at the factory. I've driven a new C6 quite a bit - and it is a friggin' great car. Not just good - great. Yes, it has a plastic american interior - but it is the best plastic interior I've seen in an american car.

Wow - my ears are still ringing, my gut is growling, and my head hurts.

Feels like I'm :horse:

WW

PS - wonder if I can't turn some polyurethane and make my own busings ;)


Wild. I had been having some clunking issues with my diff (above the usual driveline lash). I just got my hands on a BMR Pinion support brace and anti-wheel hop kit because I had some trouble convincing my local caddy dealer (Malouf in North Brunswick, NJ) to look into my diff clunking problems. The service associate quoted something about "the suspension link setup being weird because of the drivetrain and engine". I though what he was saying sounded like a misdiagnosis and or bad excuse for not being able to figure out what the problem is.

Do you think it would be worth my while trying to get the stealership to look into replacing the bushings before attepmting the BMR install?

CVP33
09-04-06, 05:04 PM
The bushings are a temporary fix. They will eventually wear out depending on your driving habits. The BMR piece has been a "mixed bag" for most. Best to clear that install with your dealer first or the next bushing or rear diff' could be your dime. We've had several owners denied warranty coverage for these failures due to BMR parts or other differential aids.

wildwhl
09-04-06, 06:51 PM
I agree with CVP on the pinion support. The spectre bushings are nearly as good as the BMR AWH bar at reducing wheel hop, but much less noise.

I had the pinion support, toe rods, trailing arms, and AWH kit for a while - and took all but the latter off. Enough said.

WW

lawfive
09-04-06, 06:57 PM
Thanks to the on-target boys. This thread's been up & down and all around.

Good to hear from Chris, though. Them were the days...

rbrown81
09-04-06, 07:04 PM
I agree with CVP on the pinion support. The spectre bushings are nearly as good as the BMR AWH bar at reducing wheel hop, but much less noise.

I had the pinion support, toe rods, trailing arms, and AWH kit for a while - and took all but the latter off.

WW

How bad is the noise increase from the AWH bar? Im hoping that the Support and the wheelhop bar will increase the life of the bushings.

wildwhl
09-04-06, 07:05 PM
Hey, Law - I don't recall. Do you have a laptop with tuning/scanning software? Do you know if you're throwing any codes (a code reader perhaps)?

WW - threadjacking again

lawfive
09-04-06, 07:20 PM
Hey, Law - I don't recall. Do you have a laptop with tuning/scanning software? Do you know if you're throwing any codes (a code reader perhaps)?

WW - threadjacking again

Nope, no tuning software. No time to pick up that particular hobby yet. I do know that I'm not throwing codes, though. :sneaky:

Speaking of which: is Rick still planning to sell some type of tuner? He was talking a long time ago about having something on the drawing boards with another company.

wildwhl
09-04-06, 07:22 PM
rbrown - AWH bar doesn't really add much noise - but the pinion support sure does. If you didn't hear a whine before, you will now.

law - not sure. I know EFIlive has a handheld unit now that is hugely advanced. I ordered mine a couple days ago. Not sure when it will arrive. Tired of lugging the laptop around.

WW

lawfive
09-04-06, 07:28 PM
law - not sure. I know EFIlive has a handheld unit now that is hugely advanced. I ordered mine a couple days ago. Not sure when it will arrive. Tired of lugging the laptop around.

WW

So how long did it take you to get fairly good at tuning, Bill? (And how much help did you have from a Jedi master?) I'd like to be able to tinker and learn, but not if I'm never gonna get good at it... a la golf, or World of Warcraft, or sex.

Keep in mind that from our conversations, you're obviously more wrench-experienced than I.

wildwhl
09-04-06, 08:06 PM
Let's keep this straight and not mislead anyone - I suck at tuning - just ask Rick.

To become GOOD at anything, you must have a Jedi master and the grapes to try things that you know may not turn out so well. I have been blessed with plenty of the former and drunken moments of the latter.

Basic tuning things are easy. I've built a couple of tunes from scratch, only to have to ask for help or revert back to a known good tune because I got in over my head.

Patience more than anything else, I suppose, and time to fiddle around. You really must have a WB02 (EFILive accepts the input - others might as well) to monitor what is happening in the real world - not just what you're hoping is happening.

Have a lot of time and want a new hobby or to extend your current auto addiction? Tuning is for you. Don't? I can think of other things your time and money are better spent on. No need to reinvent the wheel.

WW

rbrown81
09-08-06, 08:21 AM
rbrown - AWH bar doesn't really add much noise - but the pinion support sure does. If you didn't hear a whine before, you will now.

law - not sure. I know EFIlive has a handheld unit now that is hugely advanced. I ordered mine a couple days ago. Not sure when it will arrive. Tired of lugging the laptop around.

WW

Differential Whine doesnt bother me that much... had a whole heap of that in the Z06 :)

v-ape
09-08-06, 09:39 AM
Rappers dont drive 300c's, they take the more official route and get a proper Bentley, not the Bentley-bite-300c.

I dont think he's being racist, I think he's referring to the growing popularity of big rims in the hip-hop culture and the 300c's ability to hold them while looking normal at the same time. 22's on a V look, and are, stupid. 300c's are more of a touring car. If I ever want to drive a brick, I'll pick one up


That said, I agree with most of the V gripes, the only 2 that truely bug me are the ones that made R&T refer to the car sounding like a 1950's pickup with all the groans and squeaks, and of course the differential. I still give it a 9/10.

rbrown81
09-08-06, 09:48 AM
Rappers dont drive 300c's, they take the more official route and get a proper Bentley, not the Bentley-bite-300c.

I dont think he's being racist, I think he's referring to the growing popularity of big rims in the hip-hop culture and the 300c's ability to hold them while looking normal at the same time. 22's on a V look, and are, stupid. 300c's are more of a touring car. If I ever want to drive a brick, I'll pick one up



:horse:...... Nuff said

lawfive
09-10-06, 11:00 AM
Go Steelers!!

rbrown81
09-12-06, 11:19 AM
Go Steelers!!


:worship::worship::worship:

But Giants are better :bouncy: