: Sal v. Cadillac?



c5 rv
08-11-06, 07:07 PM
Has Sal expressed these views here?

"Cadillac and Their Second Rate Cars"

Cadillac and Their Second Rate Cars... - GMInsideNews Forums (http://www.gminsidenews.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35553)

I'm confused.

Jesda
08-11-06, 07:17 PM
Sal: Get your facts straight!

I replied. :)

EDBSO
08-11-06, 07:20 PM
Hell, screw the interior.

I would be very happy if Cadillac designed an engine that did not have regular headgasket replacement at $$$$$. Get the engine right then start with the interior.

DILLIGAF
08-11-06, 07:42 PM
Who can give the big guy a red block for that?20 years ago when caddys were (the car),how many 500 hp MB's were on Americas roads,none.Sal is partially right on the point that cad needs to be more innovative,more reliability,ext.But cad has never been a world player in car technology.Cad is a sweet a$$ car and has the same iconic following as HD.My car only happens to be a caddie,I bought 4 doors a six speed and a ls6 motor.Cad is still and has always been a GM,isn't the Caddilac a step up from the Oldsmobile anyway.Never been a Benz,a Jag,a bentley,a Rolls,ext,ext,ext

Lord Cadillac
08-11-06, 08:12 PM
Has Sal expressed these views here?

"Cadillac and Their Second Rate Cars"

Cadillac and Their Second Rate Cars... - GMInsideNews Forums (http://www.gminsidenews.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35553)

I'm confused.

That post isn't a secret or anything. I basically copied it from the message I posted here even earlier:

http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/cadillac-versus/81639-2007-lexus-ls-460-a.html#post773694

I want more improvement from my favorite car company...

Lord Cadillac
08-11-06, 08:15 PM
Sal: Get your facts straight!

I replied. :)

You just have something against the Lexus LS. Probably because it outsells the Q45 so bad. Everytime somebody mentions "Lexus LS", you mention transmission problems like everybody's turning-in their LS' because they're so bad...

Lord Cadillac
08-11-06, 08:16 PM
Who can give the big guy a red block for that?20 years ago when caddys were (the car),how many 500 hp MB's were on Americas roads,none.Sal is partially right on the point that cad needs to be more innovative,more reliability,ext.But cad has never been a world player in car technology.Cad is a sweet a$$ car and has the same iconic following as HD.My car only happens to be a caddie,I bought 4 doors a six speed and a ls6 motor.Cad is still and has always been a GM,isn't the Caddilac a step up from the Oldsmobile anyway.Never been a Benz,a Jag,a bentley,a Rolls,ext,ext,ext
You're right. And like I said in the thread I posted here.. You have to drive a Lexus LS or Mercedes S-Class to see what I'm talking about.. Lash me 100 times with a wet noodle - this is just the type of ride-quality and functionality I expect from Cadillac...

Stoneage_Caddy
08-11-06, 08:24 PM
I agree with sal , ive driven every generation of S class and lexus ...but to me theres something about cadillacs thats well .....cadillac .....

Then again im kinda weird , im keeping my eyes peeled for a cimmaron for a daily driver ...

Destroyer
08-11-06, 08:46 PM
Who can give the big guy a red block for that?20 years ago when caddys were (the car),how many 500 hp MB's were on Americas roads,none.So tell us, how many 500hp Cadillacs were on the roads?. Hold up, I'll tell ya..........none. :eek:

Jesda
08-11-06, 08:57 PM
You just have something against the Lexus LS. Probably because it outsells the Q45 so bad. Everytime somebody mentions "Lexus LS", you mention transmission problems like everybody's turning-in their LS' because they're so bad...

No, because its a bore. Its an outright derivative bore of an appliance. Replace the L badge with "MAYTAG" and its all the same.

Note also that one of our forums members, PlayDrv4Me, had owned an LS430, and agrees that it was a dullard of a car. The only LS worthy of praise and accolade is the second generation LS400. The current one looks like a Deville that had sex with an Acura RL and had an unwanted child with down syndrome -- a case in favor of abortion.

When I spend my money, I expect style, performance, great service, and reliability. Paying full price for only half of my needs and wants? No thanks.

I like to think I've evolved as an auto enthusiast beyond "Oh, well it matches my khakis and it has oscillating vents."

The soul of a car, its character, and its depth and personality are the product of a central design philosophy, not a focus group. Get out, drive more cars, both expensive and cheap, and you'll discover what you're missing in the automotive world.

Destroyer
08-11-06, 09:00 PM
Sal is keeping it real. We all love Cadillacs although I like them more for the way they used to be and dont really care much for anything past the '96 Fleetwood. Caddy is trying hard to compete with Lexus and Mercedes but unfortuanately the things people first see and feel with the cars is not impressive. Dont get me wrong, in a way this is good for a guy like me as it makes the cars depreciate real fast and I can pick one up in 5 years or so for a song and a dance. :thumbsup:

Lord Cadillac
08-11-06, 09:04 PM
I agree with sal , ive driven every generation of S class and lexus ...but to me theres something about cadillacs thats well .....cadillac .....

Then again im kinda weird , im keeping my eyes peeled for a cimmaron for a daily driver ...

Thank you. And there's no doubt about it - there's just something about a Cadillac. They aren't my favorite for nothing. Still, I know they're improving and things are getting better - but so are all the other car companies. I'd love, more than anything, to see Cadillac become the Standard of the World again.

Lord Cadillac
08-11-06, 09:14 PM
You make valid points but this discussion isn't just about Lexus.. The Mercedes S Class is very similar to the Lexus LS in regards to the way it drives and the features it has.. I've driven the Audi A8L, the BMW 760(li, il whatever) and they're just not me.. Not everybody who buys a car is an "enthusiast". In fact, I feel pretty confident that "most" people who buy cars aren't "enthusiasts". They just buy a car that suits their needs or makes them happy when their driving..

In regards to the Lexus LS. How are you only getting "half" for your money? You mentioned Style - which is subjective - performance (you're getting it and you can opt for a fairly stiff suspension), great service (that goes without saying), and reliability (again, you've got it). You make the Lexus LS430 sound a lot worse than it is.

But, you're allowed. :)

Again, this isn't just about the Lexus. The S-Class is another car that drives the way I'd like to see a Cadillac drive with the features it has.. I appreciate the Cadillacs of today but I also appreciate the Cadillacs of yesterday. And I'm certainly not alone here when I say I'd love to see another full-sized Cadillac with a soft, quiet ride full of the innovative features that made owning a Cadillac so special...


No, because its a bore. Its an outright derivative bore of an appliance. Replace the L badge with "MAYTAG" and its all the same.

Note also that one of our forums members, PlayDrv4Me, had owned an LS430, and agrees that it was a dullard of a car. The only LS worthy of praise and accolade is the second generation LS400. The current one looks like a Deville that had sex with an Acura RL and had an unwanted child with down syndrome -- a case in favor of abortion.

When I spend my money, I expect style, performance, great service, and reliability. Paying full price for only half of my needs and wants? No thanks.

I like to think I've evolved as an auto enthusiast beyond "Oh, well it matches my khakis and it has oscillating vents."

The soul of a car, its character, and its depth and personality are the product of a central design philosophy, not a focus group. Get out, drive more cars, both expensive and cheap, and you'll discover what you're missing in the automotive world.

Jesda
08-11-06, 09:15 PM
I'd love, more than anything, to see Cadillac become the Standard of the World again.

I agree, but I dont want Cadillac's improvement to come at the expense of its character. Set higher standards for quality and engineering, sure... but Lexus, Acura, and Infiniti should not be inspiration for Cadillac.

Jesda
08-11-06, 09:20 PM
Again, this isn't just about the Lexus. The S-Class is another car that drives the way I'd like to see a Cadillac drive with the features it has.. I appreciate the Cadillacs of today but I also appreciate the Cadillacs of yesterday. And I'm certainly not alone here when I say I'd love to see another full-sized Cadillac with a soft, quiet ride full of the innovative features that made owning a Cadillac so special...

When I see a down-faced LS430 wallowing along like a fat turd, I see a car that reached only half its potential. I see derivation, not innovation. I see accountants going to Starbucks.

It sounds like you and I aspire to have different versions of Cadillac. I want bold, powerful, strong, and original. Cadillac, to me, should be the car of choice for an outgoing extrovert who wants to announce to the world that he's made it.

What it sounds like you're describing, in your praises for Lexus and old-fashioned Cadillac virtues, is Buick.

DILLIGAF
08-11-06, 09:36 PM
So tell us, how many 500hp Cadillacs were on the roads?. Hold up, I'll tell ya..........none. :eek:The point I was wanting to make is Cadillac was basically the only game in town for affordable luxury.Point is,there are some amazing cars on the roads today.How can GM ever get it's shit together?Where is American technology?Americans are assemblers today, not innovators.And Sal,theres nothing cooler than a mint condition caddie rolling down the road.The caddies I love are the land yachts and they will never be duplicated.In a few years with a growing world market buyers won't buy brands just styling preferences and equipment packages,Oh,IMO:stirpot:

Blackout
08-11-06, 09:37 PM
I agree 100% with what Sal is saying. If you think Cadillac is beyond Lexus or Mercedes then your only fooling yourself. After driving my grandfathers 2005 GS430 I can say that it is by far a much superior/solid car then any Cadillac I have ever driven. The CTS compared to the IS350 interior wise is not even close! If you like solid black or whatever interior color you choose in plastic then the CTS is the car for you. Cadillac cannot base itself on "performance" because performance alone doesn't sell. Look at the Lexus LS. it has 285 hp or something like that! But the car sells just fine and I have never heard an LS owners complain about their car. And after checking one out at the NYC International Auto Show Cadillac doesn't have anything that comes to fit/finish/class. So you can have fun with the innovative Cadillac CTS-V with a Corvette engine and think its genious when its just a heavier Corvette and nothing else. If it wasn't for the hip-hop/rap scene god only knows where Cadillac would be at today since that scene made it popular again to own a Cadillac (well just Escalade's) again.

Jesda
08-11-06, 09:47 PM
The CTS compared to the IS350 interior wise is not even close!

Cadillac cannot base itself on "performance" because performance alone doesn't sell. Look at the Lexus LS. it has 285 hp or something like that! But the car sells just fine and I have never heard an LS owners complain about their car. And after checking one out at the NYC International Auto Show Cadillac doesn't have anything that comes to fit/finish/class. So you can have fun with the innovative Cadillac CTS-V with a Corvette engine and think its genious when its just a heavier Corvette and nothing else. If it wasn't for the hip-hop/rap scene god only knows where Cadillac would be at today since that scene made it popular again to own a Cadillac (well just Escalade's) again.

Performance DOES sell. Look at BMW. They have, for years, sold cars with lesser interiors (compared to MB, Lexus) but made up for it with outstanding handling, control, and feedback. Nissan's renaissance was a direct result of selling muscular-looking, fast cars. They decided to sell character, and it paid off tremendously.

I fully agree with you on the CTS interior. Its a bit dreary, and the door panels are just plain cheap. It needs a LOT of work.

There's a segment of the population that knows nothing about cars, and would prefer to have them in the back of their mind, tucked away in their garages and ignored entirely except during daily commutes. These people buy LS430s, Camrys, Malibus, etc. All fairly reliable, all fairly well built, and all pretty damn depressing to drive.

There's a big market for those kinds of people. They shop at Banana Republic, listen to Celine Dion, and drink $5 lattes. I thank God that I'm not one of them. I'm glad Cadillac isn't pursuing them either.

DILLIGAF
08-11-06, 09:52 PM
Blackout,Cad has done well IMO jumping into the performance scene.My car is a four door 440 rwhp grocery getter that gets all kinds of looks.The ctsv is much more than a vette IMO.Your last sentence is not even close,but close to a racial slur IMO.

Jesda
08-11-06, 09:55 PM
BYour last sentence is not even close,but close to a racial slur IMO.

LOL, I think he's far far far away from making a racial slur. Eminem is part of that hip hop scene, isnt he? :)

DILLIGAF
08-11-06, 10:12 PM
LOL, I think he's far far far away from making a racial slur. Eminem is part of that hip hop scene, isnt he? :)
I believe caddie has and always will have a mystique about them.M&M,are you serious,here I go,jumping up on my soap box.M&M=bad man,I hate my kid listening to those lyrics but I keep my mouth shut as i should.I just feel Escalades are cool suvs driven by discriminating adults who can afford them and not just hip hopping,rappers who with the exception of 1 are black?:thepan:

DopeStar 156
08-11-06, 10:35 PM
What's with all the muckraking around here? Why have we turned on our founder?

DILLIGAF
08-11-06, 10:41 PM
What's with all the muckraking around here? Why have we turned on our founder?
Nobodys turning on Sal,LOL:) I think we're discussing where cadillac stands in the world market,at least thats what i'm going for.:thepan:

thebigjimsho
08-11-06, 11:54 PM
I agree 100% with what Sal is saying. If you think Cadillac is beyond Lexus or Mercedes then your only fooling yourself. After driving my grandfathers 2005 GS430 I can say that it is by far a much superior/solid car then any Cadillac I have ever driven. The CTS compared to the IS350 interior wise is not even close! If you like solid black or whatever interior color you choose in plastic then the CTS is the car for you. Cadillac cannot base itself on "performance" because performance alone doesn't sell. Look at the Lexus LS. it has 285 hp or something like that! But the car sells just fine and I have never heard an LS owners complain about their car. And after checking one out at the NYC International Auto Show Cadillac doesn't have anything that comes to fit/finish/class. So you can have fun with the innovative Cadillac CTS-V with a Corvette engine and think its genious when its just a heavier Corvette and nothing else. If it wasn't for the hip-hop/rap scene god only knows where Cadillac would be at today since that scene made it popular again to own a Cadillac (well just Escalade's) again.And while Audi-buttraped clowns like toysnot go on and on about interior quality, we have a continually growing forum of guys that love driving and enjoying their Vs to the point of obsession. I'd like to see ANY Lexus owner group become like us. They make high quality cars with a low excitement quotient. Unless you're young ricer graduates who dream of dropping in a Gen IV Supra motor into their IS, there is nothing.

thebigjimsho
08-11-06, 11:58 PM
Oh, and another thing... If all we have is a 4 door Vette, where are the Vette brakes? Where's the Vette chassis? The V may not break any technological barriers, but the combination of handling, braking and power make it damn near perfect on the road course. It makes any Ford(except a SHO) look like a worthless piece of dung(I added that for theatrical effect) .So watch where you decide to sling your mud.

hardrockcamaro@mac.c
08-12-06, 03:56 AM
Perofmrnce does sell yes.
But I hope Cadillac don't go down the road of giving every car in their range rock hard seats and firm suspension. I hate BMWs. I've owner them (as company vehicles) and I would never buyt one. Ignoring the main issue, which is the shockingly bad reliability, they are downright uncomfortable. A big luxury saloon should be cosseting, they are not. On an M5 I can understand that, but not on the non performance models. The UK press have a habit of only liking a car that handles and ignore the ride (well, they say it has a slightly over firm ride but it's not uncomfortable. Wake up call: Yes it is uncomfortbale).


A lot of people are raising Cadillacs reliability. Well, Caddy never sold many over here but from what I know they're not that bad. There's around 500-600 late model Caddy's over here and I have spoken to every single American Car specialist and only 1 has ever had its headgaskets replaced. The electricals are FAR more reliable than BMWs and the engines seem about the same (at worst). I think people on here focus on teh Northstar issues to much. If you had a BMW you'd be in a world of trouble reliability wise. 12 years ago BMW were fine, since then they've gone downhill big time.

The cars don't handle well at all, the spring rate is far too soft and the steering too lifeless. However, they are FAR more comfortable because of this so I'd say the score was a tie.

They are far better specced and I think gadget wise they are far more inovative than their German counterparts.
If you want handling then a manual German saloon is the way to go. If you don't care about handling and want to be transported as comfortably as possible between 2 places, then the Caddy is the way to go.

As for Lexus, I think they're boring to look at, the interiors are uninspiring and don't look any more upmarket than Caddy (I'd say they look downmarket actually) and they're not a drivers car either. Maybe they're very reliable (I don't know) but that's about it.


My car needs heritage, style, character and it needs to have been designed to do the taks I want it do do. I think Cadillac fit the bill perfectly. Several of my friends and family HATE american cars. They just do. But they all love my Cadillac.

Lord Cadillac
08-12-06, 04:42 AM
There's a segment of the population that knows nothing about cars, and would prefer to have them in the back of their mind, tucked away in their garages and ignored entirely except during daily commutes. These people buy LS430s, Camrys, Malibus, etc. All fairly reliable, all fairly well built, and all pretty damn depressing to drive.

There's a big market for those kinds of people. They shop at Banana Republic, listen to Celine Dion, and drink $5 lattes. I thank God that I'm not one of them. I'm glad Cadillac isn't pursuing them either.

I think the segment you're describing here is the largest segment of automobile owners. I don't know why you keep saying that LS430s (and even Camrys) are "fairly" reliable and "fairly" well built. Again, I know you have some sort of hate for Toyota, or at least Lexus, but it seems a little extreme to me... Banana Republic, Celine Dion and $5 Lattes.. You really need to stop. I suppose that's me because I like "boring" cars? Give me a break.

Again, forget I said anything about the Lexus LS. I'm sorry I ever brought it up. Woe is me for comparing the LS to the S-Class. And I'm very sorry for somehow personally offending you with all of this.

Lord Cadillac
08-12-06, 04:46 AM
What's with all the muckraking around here? Why have we turned on our founder?

Apparently, I can't have a personal opinion without being ridiculed for it. :alchi:

Jesda
08-12-06, 05:04 AM
I'm sorry I ever brought it up. Woe is me for comparing the LS to the S-Class. And I'm very sorry for somehow personally offending you with all of this.

Its not a personal matter. Its a discussion of varying automotive tastes. I'm not offended by your opinion. I'm annoyed by the assertion that something blandly adequate for the masses is equally sufficient for auto enthusiasts.

The general public can have their dreary appliances. I'm a living, breathing man with two testicles and an appetite for red meat -- I want more than that! I cant settle for what the unwashed masses call "great", as their standards for everything else are so terribly low. Big Macs are big sellers. I prefer Indian and Thai.

Driving is an activity where the driver -should- be involved and can interface with the vehicle in a full and sensuous manner. I cant imagine having a sedan without a little sport in it, whether it comes in the form of massive torque or on-rail handling. I'm not dead yet, and have no intention of acting like a corpse in my day to day activities.

Jean Jennings, Editor in Chief of Automobile Magazine, says as a personal mantra, "NO BORING CARS!" This is the doctrine that all auto enthusiasts should live by.

Sure, Lexus makes a good car, but who the hell cares? Grandma?

My heart still beats. Passion over perfection, please.

Lord Cadillac
08-12-06, 06:05 AM
First... Holy crap! Don't you ever sleep? Now let me read your reply...

Lord Cadillac
08-12-06, 06:12 AM
Since we're forgetting I ever said anything about the LS430, I've never heard anyone call the S500 (for example) blandly adequate. Or a dreary appliance. If we're still on the Lexus, let's please get off of it. When I created this discussion (and the one that made this topic pop up in the first place), I should have never used the Lexus LS as my example along with the Mercedes. I should have just used the Mercedes (even though I feel they're equal vehicles).


Its not a personal matter. Its a discussion of varying automotive tastes. I'm not offended by your opinion. I'm annoyed by the assertion that something blandly adequate for the masses is equally sufficient for auto enthusiasts.

The general public can have their dreary appliances. I'm a living, breathing man with two testicles and an appetite for red meat -- I want more than that! I cant settle for what the unwashed masses call "great", as their standards for everything else are so terribly low. Big Macs are big sellers. I prefer Indian and Thai.

Driving is an activity where the driver -should- be involved and can interface with the vehicle in a full and sensuous manner. I cant imagine having a sedan without a little sport in it, whether it comes in the form of massive torque or on-rail handling. I'm not dead yet, and have no intention of acting like a corpse in my day to day activities.

Jean Jennings, Editor in Chief of Automobile Magazine, says as a personal mantra, "NO BORING CARS!" This is the doctrine that all auto enthusiasts should live by.

Sure, Lexus makes a good car, but who the hell cares? Grandma?

My heart still beats. Passion over perfection, please.

Jesda
08-12-06, 06:22 AM
Sleep? Im still operating on Bangkok time. :D

I dont consider the LS and S-class to be really comparable, unless we're factoring in the new LS460, which seems like a pretty damn remarkable car. The LS430 is a giant engineering leap over the aging DTS, but it compares more with the E-class. The S-class really is in a league of its own.

Handling and acceleration in the (V8) S-class is simply outstanding for its heft and dimensions. MB reliability may have slipped (theyve come around noticeably in the last year or so), but engineering is still top notch.

My point... if you're going to claim Cadillac is lagging behind, Lexus isnt the most effective way of illustrating it.

Lord Cadillac
08-12-06, 07:02 AM
I've heard people compare the LS430 to the E-Class before - but why? The E-Class is a mid-size vehicle where the LS is a full-size, like the S-Class. The LS has better acceleration than the S500 and handles about the same with the Euro suspension (although I know there are higher-performance models available)... So my question is, other than looks, what is it about the S-Class that you feel puts it in a league of it's own? Besides the $100k available high-performance models..

Jesda
08-12-06, 07:22 AM
The S-class is indeed a bit bigger than the LS, and offers a quieter highway ride (going based on interior decibels at 70mph), many, many more comfort and convenience features, and a multitude of engine options worldwide. In addition, the S-class (I assume throughout this conversation that we're talking about current products, which means we're talking about the W221) has a dressier interior, sharper handling, and a more solid high-speed ride. Steering in the LS430 gets waify during high-speed cruising. Dont forget the little things, like bi-xenon headlights, more accurate cruise control, shades for side doors, etc. Its the details, after all, that you mentioned as an example. [Interestingly, Mazda thought the oscillating vents were a waste and ditched them. They really are useless, but quite cool.]

Still waiting for a performance version of the LS. The upcoming 460h may be it, but it isn't on the outrageous [in a good way] level of the AMG S65. Believe it or not, a $100k halo model DOES affect the credibility of lesser models. Thats the point, after all, when you're creating a heritage. Look at what the 'V' did for the CTS or the 'RS' for Audi's A4. Toyota/Lexus is more concerned with quantity these days in their "relentless pursuit" of beating GM in global sales.

All my Lexus bashing may end with the LS460. I sure hope so.

urbanski
08-12-06, 08:01 AM
holy crap :hide:

c5 rv
08-12-06, 08:15 AM
Well, this has been an interesting thread. At least I'm reassured that our leader's intentions were honorable and he's not turning to the dark side.

thebigjimsho
08-12-06, 09:56 AM
Perofmrnce does sell yes.
But I hope Cadillac don't go down the road of giving every car in their range rock hard seats and firm suspension. I hate BMWs. I've owner them (as company vehicles) and I would never buyt one. Ignoring the main issue, which is the shockingly bad reliability, they are downright uncomfortable. A big luxury saloon should be cosseting, they are not. On an M5 I can understand that, but not on the non performance models. The UK press have a habit of only liking a car that handles and ignore the ride (well, they say it has a slightly over firm ride but it's not uncomfortable. Wake up call: Yes it is uncomfortbale).


A lot of people are raising Cadillacs reliability. Well, Caddy never sold many over here but from what I know they're not that bad. There's around 500-600 late model Caddy's over here and I have spoken to every single American Car specialist and only 1 has ever had its headgaskets replaced. The electricals are FAR more reliable than BMWs and the engines seem about the same (at worst). I think people on here focus on teh Northstar issues to much. If you had a BMW you'd be in a world of trouble reliability wise. 12 years ago BMW were fine, since then they've gone downhill big time.

The cars don't handle well at all, the spring rate is far too soft and the steering too lifeless. However, they are FAR more comfortable because of this so I'd say the score was a tie.

They are far better specced and I think gadget wise they are far more inovative than their German counterparts.
If you want handling then a manual German saloon is the way to go. If you don't care about handling and want to be transported as comfortably as possible between 2 places, then the Caddy is the way to go.

As for Lexus, I think they're boring to look at, the interiors are uninspiring and don't look any more upmarket than Caddy (I'd say they look downmarket actually) and they're not a drivers car either. Maybe they're very reliable (I don't know) but that's about it.


My car needs heritage, style, character and it needs to have been designed to do the taks I want it do do. I think Cadillac fit the bill perfectly. Several of my friends and family HATE american cars. They just do. But they all love my Cadillac.hahaha Saloon. You Europeans are a riot. "Open the boot to my saloon now woman!" hahahahaha

thebigjimsho
08-12-06, 09:59 AM
As for your opinions on BMWs, I wholeheartedly disagree. I've driven a few larger, luxury saloons(love it!) from BMW and they ride very comfortably. And don't get me started on the late-model 7 series with their active swaybars! Yummy!

Lord Cadillac
08-12-06, 12:21 PM
holy crap :hide:

Yeah, I hear ya...

Lord Cadillac
08-12-06, 12:23 PM
So what's keeping Cadillac from building a DTS (or a Fleetwood, if my Cadillac dream would come true) equal to the S-Class? Intellect? Money? Desire?


The S-class is indeed a bit bigger than the LS, and offers a quieter highway ride (going based on interior decibels at 70mph), many, many more comfort and convenience features, and a multitude of engine options worldwide. In addition, the S-class (I assume throughout this conversation that we're talking about current products, which means we're talking about the W221) has a dressier interior, sharper handling, and a more solid high-speed ride. Steering in the LS430 gets waify during high-speed cruising. Dont forget the little things, like bi-xenon headlights, more accurate cruise control, shades for side doors, etc. Its the details, after all, that you mentioned as an example. [Interestingly, Mazda thought the oscillating vents were a waste and ditched them. They really are useless, but quite cool.]

Still waiting for a performance version of the LS. The upcoming 460h may be it, but it isn't on the outrageous [in a good way] level of the AMG S65. Believe it or not, a $100k halo model DOES affect the credibility of lesser models. Thats the point, after all, when you're creating a heritage. Look at what the 'V' did for the CTS or the 'RS' for Audi's A4. Toyota/Lexus is more concerned with quantity these days in their "relentless pursuit" of beating GM in global sales.

All my Lexus bashing may end with the LS460. I sure hope so.

Lord Cadillac
08-12-06, 12:24 PM
Well, this has been an interesting thread. At least I'm reassured that our leader's intentions were honorable and he's not turning to the dark side.

I just like to get people thinking.. Cadillac will always be my favorite brand of automobile...

Stoneage_Caddy
08-12-06, 12:54 PM
I just like to get people thinking.. Cadillac will always be my favorite brand of automobile...

but i dont like thinking ....it hurts to much

Blackout
08-12-06, 01:12 PM
Performance DOES sell. Look at BMW. They have, for years, sold cars with lesser interiors (compared to MB, Lexus) but made up for it with outstanding handling, control, and feedback.Performance as in acceleration. The 330Ci is the top of the line model besides the M3 for the 3 series and it has a jaw dropping 225 hp. You were saying that the 550i was a poor choice and thats their top of the line model besides the M5. So what exactly is a good choice if your looking to buy a BMW?

thebigjimsho
08-12-06, 01:21 PM
Performance as in acceleration. The 330Ci is the top of the line model besides the M3 for the 3 series and it has a jaw dropping 225 hp. You were saying that the 550i was a poor choice and thats their top of the line model besides the M5. So what exactly is a good choice if your looking to buy a BMW?
Top of the line for a 3 series coupe, which is still running on the lighter, last Gen body style. The new engines running in the new 4 door are up to 255hp.

Blackout
08-12-06, 01:22 PM
Blackout,Cad has done well IMO jumping into the performance scene.My car is a four door 440 rwhp grocery getter that gets all kinds of looks.The ctsv is much more than a vette IMO.Your last sentence is not even close,but close to a racial slur IMO.It doesn't take a lot of originality to drop in a high performance engine in a car. When the CTS-V came out there was only one other car that had any chance of performance and that was the 95-96 Fleetwood. And why is that? Both cars had a Vette engine in them and were RWD. The Northstar does have nice performance but is nagged by headgasket issues (atleast the older N*'s) but was mated to a FWD platform *yawn*. Cadillac is on the right track to getting itself back into the luxury car scene main reason being is it has converted back to RWD. But the interiors still leave a lot to be desired if they do want to be back into the competition of other luxury cars in its class. Like I said before its nice a car can go fast and handle well but to the normal joe that isn't what makes a luxury car a luxury car. After being in the new LS and checking out a Maybach those are luxury cars.

Blackout
08-12-06, 01:30 PM
And while Audi-buttraped clowns like toysnot go on and on about interior quality, we have a continually growing forum of guys that love driving and enjoying their Vs to the point of obsession.Just because owners love driving their cars doesn't mean its a better car. You have a big time chip on your choulder when it comes to Audi and toysnob or as you call him toysnot.

I'd like to see ANY Lexus owner group become like us. They make high quality cars with a low excitement quotient. Unless you're young ricer graduates who dream of dropping in a Gen IV Supra motor into their IS, there is nothing.Your logic makes zero sense. So because Lexus owners don't get together and race their cars or brag about how they have a great performance engines thats makes them less of a car group compared to this forum? Not every car manufacturer looks at their cars to see how they can be turned into race cars or how well their engine's can be modified. If you look though the whole Toyota lineup they don't really have a high performance car. But by looking at their sales I guess they don't need one because they are doing just fine compared to the likes of GM, Ford, DCX, etc. Like I've stated before performance doesn't sell cars. Hyundai and Kia were one of the few automakers that had higher sales for the last quarter and do they have any performance cars? Hell no. Performance vehicles are for a small niche group that don't really makes automakers a ton of money.

Blackout
08-12-06, 01:33 PM
Top of the line for a 3 series coupe, which is still running on the lighter, last Gen body style. The new engines running in the new 4 door are up to 255hp.So the 3 series is getting 2 more doors, more weight and 30 extra hp. So are you worried about this? Because to me that doesn't make me think performance when I see 255 whopping hp

Lord Cadillac
08-12-06, 01:39 PM
Like I said before its nice a car can go fast and handle well but to the normal joe that isn't what makes a luxury car a luxury car. After being in the new LS and checking out a Maybach those are luxury cars.

I guess that describes me - and why I like cars such as the Lexus LS and Mercedes S-Class.. Performance isn't very important to me, although I don't want my car to be weak. The Fleetwood Brougham had adequate power and I loved the way the car road soft. Same goes for the Town Car - only IT has hardly any of the nice innovations that the Lexus or Mercedes has... I think most luxury car buyers share my opinion and if Cadillac offered a vehicle like the above mentioned, it would sell a lot.. Not everybody wants a Cadillac BMW.

EDBSO
08-12-06, 02:16 PM
I think that we should take a pole.

HOLD IT!!! there already is a pole of world wide car purchasers.

How many Cadillacs are sold in Japan, Australia, Europe and North America?

AND How many BMWs, Lexus and Mercedes are sold in Japan, Australia, Europe and North America?

The world's driving population has spoken and the answer is . . . Cadillac is the best top selling car in the world NOT!

Destroyer
08-12-06, 03:41 PM
I guess that describes me - and why I like cars such as the Lexus LS and Mercedes S-Class.. Performance isn't very important to me, although I don't want my car to be weak. The Fleetwood Brougham had adequate power and I loved the way the car road soft. Same goes for the Town Car - only IT has hardly any of the nice innovations that the Lexus or Mercedes has... I think most luxury car buyers share my opinion and if Cadillac offered a vehicle like the above mentioned, it would sell a lot.. Not everybody wants a Cadillac BMW.
The trick is to get the Cadillac to Mercedes/Lexus levels but at the current pricing. Even if the Caddy did not have all the innovations but had the solidity and vault like feel of a Benz plus the quality of the materials on the inside it would be an excellent value. I mean, the Cadillacs have great drivetrains and newfound performance, if they could just complete the package....................

dp102288
08-12-06, 03:45 PM
Unfortunately Cadillac is not the best. Although I am in love with the Cadillac brand, I do realize the "better" offerings can be had elsewhere. My definition of better may differ from yours, but as I can imagine, the common buyer's "better" is one that puts Cadillac in a place that isn't first.

I myself would love to drive around a new LS, hearing what I have heard, but it can never be a Cadillac. The thing that bugs me the most is that in numerous posts, Cadillac does not compete with the S-Class, or LS. Why? What is stopping Cadillac and GM from making such a car...one that can come to a buyer's mind when searching for a S or LS?

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, that is why we are here. If we are to follow someone else's ideas, then why have a reply box? For me, I always need to have a Cadillac somewhere to call my own. Even if I never drive it and have 5 other luxury/preformance cars, I need a Caddy. I do wish Cadillac had some of the newer features that are on the high-end M-B, BMW, Lexus, Infiniti, etc...cars.

As for the bickering going on between many of our members, let us remember that personal opinion is just that, personal. I will never accept that my Eldorado could be a cheap car to maintain, has a low body weight, and has small doors. Even if you pull up next to me in a Maybach, my car is still heavy, and still expensive to maintain. Like the rest of you, certain things are held within us that we can't or don't want to change, and we should never have to for someone else.

thebigjimsho
08-12-06, 06:08 PM
So the 3 series is getting 2 more doors, more weight and 30 extra hp. So are you worried about this? Because to me that doesn't make me think performance when I see 255 whopping hpWell, then I guess if you think the only way to have a performance car is to have too much hp for the chassis and whatever else, then think what you want. But BMW knows how to build cars with the right amount of power, handling and brakes to get the job done. And guess what? It's fun to drive. That's why the auto rags gush over the 3 series time and time again.

thebigjimsho
08-12-06, 06:10 PM
Just because owners love driving their cars doesn't mean its a better car. You have a big time chip on your choulder when it comes to Audi and toysnob or as you call him toysnot.

You obviously don't know much about that whole daitribe. So until you know the whole situation with toysnob, why don't you keep your lack of knowledge to yourself.

thebigjimsho
08-12-06, 06:15 PM
Your logic makes zero sense. So because Lexus owners don't get together and race their cars or brag about how they have a great performance engines thats makes them less of a car group compared to this forum? Not every car manufacturer looks at their cars to see how they can be turned into race cars or how well their engine's can be modified. If you look though the whole Toyota lineup they don't really have a high performance car. But by looking at their sales I guess they don't need one because they are doing just fine compared to the likes of GM, Ford, DCX, etc. Like I've stated before performance doesn't sell cars. Hyundai and Kia were one of the few automakers that had higher sales for the last quarter and do they have any performance cars? Hell no. Performance vehicles are for a small niche group that don't really makes automakers a ton of money.I never say that car manufacturers do or should care about the small percent of us that get into a car and can actually appreciate the feel of a car that's been designed primarily for driver involvement. Which is exactly where the whole argument between Cadillac and Jesda started. And like I said before, there is no Lexus and very few Mercedes that can actually make your pulse race during anything else than a straight line.

I don't care about the great unwashed. That's why they'll never read these words in this forum. Sometimes I wish you didn't too.

Don't ever tell me my logic makes no sense when you obviously don't even know what I'm saying.

Blackout
08-12-06, 07:32 PM
Well, then I guess if you think the only way to have a performance car is to have too much hp for the chassis and whatever else, then think what you want. But BMW knows how to build cars with the right amount of power, handling and brakes to get the job done. And guess what? It's fun to drive. That's why the auto rags gush over the 3 series time and time again.fun car to drive doesn't mean it's a performance car. Mag's love driving the Solstice and Miata but are they performance cars? Hell no. Name me a performance car that has 255 hp and is considered a performance car. There's a difference between a performance car and a "fun" car. The only car that has 255 hp that its sole purpose is to perform would be the Ariel Atom and the Elise

Blackout
08-12-06, 07:34 PM
You obviously don't know much about that whole daitribe. So until you know the whole situation with toysnob, why don't you keep your lack of knowledge to yourself.So because anytime someone mentions Audi and you come on and say something negative about it and when someone asks you why you do that they need to shut their mouth because they don't know about you and toysnob?:bigroll:

Blackout
08-12-06, 07:39 PM
And like I said before, there is no Lexus and very few Mercedes that can actually make your pulse race during anything else than a straight line.The McLaren SLR, any AMG class car, etc.


I don't care about the great unwashed. That's why they'll never read these words in this forum. Sometimes I wish you didn't too.And why is that? Because my opinion differ's from yours? Is it because I actually like something besides Cadillac? :suspect:


Don't ever tell me my logic makes no sense when you obviously don't even know what I'm saying.Your logic doesn't make sense. And I think the only person that understands your logic is you.

Blackout
08-12-06, 07:42 PM
I guess that describes me - and why I like cars such as the Lexus LS and Mercedes S-Class.. Performance isn't very important to me, although I don't want my car to be weak. The Fleetwood Brougham had adequate power and I loved the way the car road soft. Same goes for the Town Car - only IT has hardly any of the nice innovations that the Lexus or Mercedes has... I think most luxury car buyers share my opinion and if Cadillac offered a vehicle like the above mentioned, it would sell a lot.. Not everybody wants a Cadillac BMW.Exactly. Their most expensive vehicle is $100k and what do you get for that amount? Go over to a BMW dealership or a Mercedes dealership and check out cars that cost $100k over there and then look at a XLR-V and there is no way in hell that you would be able to think that the XLR-V is worth $100k

thebigjimsho
08-12-06, 08:28 PM
The McLaren SLR, any AMG class car, etc.

And why is that? Because my opinion differ's from yours? Is it because I actually like something besides Cadillac? :suspect:

Your logic doesn't make sense. And I think the only person that understands your logic is you.
Did you not see "very few Mercedes"? As for most of the AMG cars, did you not see "in anything but a straight line"?

As for my allegiance to Cadillac, I never thought of buying one until the CTS-V. My allegiance is based only on the V. I have more allegiance to Ford for stumbling upon the SHO if you're going to go that route.

thebigjimsho
08-12-06, 08:31 PM
So because anytime someone mentions Audi and you come on and say something negative about it and when someone asks you why you do that they need to shut their mouth because they don't know about you and toysnob?:bigroll:
If you actually read any of that crap, I gave much respect to Audi. It was toysnob's persistent agenda of pissing off the V crowd that sent that thread spiraling. Since you can't understand the point of gross exaggeration, I'll just say I like the Audi RS4...when it's running.

thebigjimsho
08-12-06, 08:42 PM
fun car to drive doesn't mean it's a performance car. Mag's love driving the Solstice and Miata but are they performance cars? Hell no. Name me a performance car that has 255 hp and is considered a performance car. There's a difference between a performance car and a "fun" car. The only car that has 255 hp that its sole purpose is to perform would be the Ariel Atom and the EliseSo it has to be fast in a straight line to be a performance car? Wow, you are spoiled. When I was your age, the only 4 doors that could outaccelerate my SHO were an M5 and 500E. And there were very few coupes that could as well unless you started talking exotic. And that was "only" 220hp. That putrid 255hp 330i is hitting 60 in under 6 seconds. But, hey, there's no performance there. Of course, outhandling a 300hp Mustang GT or 500hp overrated Shelby doesn't account for anything. Yep, not a "performance car"...

Jesda
08-13-06, 03:39 AM
One of my favorite performance cars is the 110hp 1990 1.6L Mazda Miata. Take it through some mountain or lakeside roads to see the other side of performance.

I love the gobs of power I get from my Q45, but I admire light sports cars like the Solstice.

hardrockcamaro@mac.c
08-13-06, 07:23 AM
Performance cars over here have to handle as well as have straight line speed. In fact, reviews favour cars with better handling over ones with more power.

That's fine.

However, what I hate is that every car must handle to be considered a good car. Not a good performance car, but a good car period.
For example, as a BMW handles well it is a good car, as a Cadillac doesn't handle as well it's not a good car. But surely the fact that the Cadillac rides better and is more comfortable and quieter makes it a better car than the BMW because, for the purpose it was designed, it does those things better. If I want a large luxury saloon to travel the motorways of the UK at 70mph for a few hundred miles a day, surely the Cadillac is the better choice than the harder sprung, hard seated BMW?
All car reviews in the UK consider handling to be of utmost performance, even if that's not the purpose of the vehicle.

If a Cadillac is faster in a straight line, is more comfortable, has more luxuries, is quieter and cheaper but the other car handles better, the other car is considerd better as the Cadillac is bad because it handles like a boat.
That makes NO sense to me.

Jesda
08-13-06, 10:15 AM
The thing is, BMWs arent as hard-sprung as people say, not until you get into the roadsters and special M-badged sedans. The handling comes greatly from the light weight, balance, and feedback to the driver. The more you know about the road, the better you can own and control it. My 5-series had plenty of body roll, much more than my Q45 and even the Seville STS, but it felt satisfying anyway because I, the driver, was at the center of the centrifugal forces and was in full control of the situation.

I, too, enjoy having the ability to cruise in a straight line comfortably. However, a big engine (with proper gearing) contributes greatly to safety, comfort, and economy. Spinning a lower RPMs reduces cabin noise, improves fuel efficiency, and reduces fatigue. Power also allows safe passing.

thebigjimsho
08-13-06, 05:39 PM
What I like about makers like BMW is that they have a Sport package for just about every model. You can have a softly sprung BMW if you like or a sharp handling one. I think Cadillac is catching up to that idea.

P-Funk
08-15-06, 02:51 PM
I think that we should take a pole.

HOLD IT!!! there already is a pole of world wide car purchasers.

How many Cadillacs are sold in Japan, Australia, Europe and North America?

AND How many BMWs, Lexus and Mercedes are sold in Japan, Australia, Europe and North America?

The world's driving population has spoken and the answer is . . . Cadillac is the best top selling car in the world NOT!

You can't use world wide purchasers as a pole for a comparison. There are many factors that affect those numbers. The main thing is their dislike or bias against American things. This applies to other things as well as cars. It doesn't matter if the product is better and cheaper, if it is American, they try to find something wrong with it.

P-Funk
08-15-06, 02:58 PM
What is with you guys saying that the interior of the Lexus is better than Cadillac? I don't see it. Is it different? Yes. I guess my preferences just differ. Also, I like my car's seats to fit me. I haven't sat in the newest LS but every other Lexus I've sat in is way too small for me. This goes for Jaguar as well.

As for MB, I go to the car show every year and check out all of the different cars. I don't see the MB or any other comparable car far exceeding the Cadillac in the interior. Yes, there are areas that they are better but not by the amount that everyone seems to be talking about here. Sure, the Maybach is nicer but then again, you could say that other MBs suck because they don't measure up to the Maybach.

Blackout
08-15-06, 03:24 PM
You can't use world wide purchasers as a pole for a comparison. There are many factors that affect those numbers. The main thing is their dislike or bias against American things. This applies to other things as well as cars. It doesn't matter if the product is better and cheaper, if it is American, they try to find something wrong with it.

What is with you guys saying that the interior of the Lexus is better than Cadillac? I don't see it.I think you answered your own question basically. If the whole world minus the US doesn't like US cars then who is the biased one? Your from america so you will be biased towards american cars. After being in a new LS and CLS as well as a XLR-V for 100k for the XLR-V I just don't see what you're paying for when cars that cost less have much nicer/better quality used for their interiors. The LS has the feel of a much more expensive look to it (interior wise) then that of any of the new Cadillac's. My dad's buddy own's a Cadillac dealership and I swing by there every once in awhile and I've been in every Cadillac model and nothing has matched the interior to that of the higher up models to that of the BMW's, Lexus, or Benz. If you like the Cadillac's interiors then hey more power to ya but Cadillac still has a little ways to go to catch up to the rest of the pack.

hardrockcamaro@mac.c
08-15-06, 03:36 PM
I have never been in a softly sprung BMW.

But maybe there is a difference between US and European models.
There certainly is in other brands such as Ford (eg Focus, Contour etc), we normally get firmer springs and damping.

And yes there can be an anti-American thing in other countries, there certainly is in the UK. Top Gear once said "Next week we'll be reviewing a new Cadillac, I don't know why we're bothering, it'll obviously be c**p".

Lord Cadillac
08-15-06, 04:46 PM
Regarding BMW, even the 750Li with the softest suspension available (something about the wheels/tires made a difference) had a harsh ride.

The first thing I notice when I sit in a luxury car is the leather. I haven't sat in MANY 06 and 07 Cadillacs so I don't remember how much they've improved. But - any 05 and older had cheap-feeling leather. Not "Buick" cheap feeling, but cheap compared to what I've felt in other high-end luxury cars like the Audi A8, BMW 7, Lexus LS and Mercedes S-Class...

That's just the first thing I notice, though.. The next thing I notice is the wood grain, then the center-stack/console and how it's laid out... I like the suede headliner in the Lexus LS.. The material on the doors is important to me as well.. I like a soft, warm feeling inside a car. Like mid-late 70s Continental Town Cars and Fleetwoods..

The next thing I look at is the technology/features. What types of cool, interesting things stand out. Like the oscillating vents that can tell which side of the car to stay directed at. That impresses me. Maybe that makes me an %#&%. I can deal with that... :p

Jesda
08-15-06, 08:17 PM
I mostly agree on the latest Lexus interiors. They arent designed in a particularly interesting, original, or inviting way (bordering on dull), but the materials and assembly are 100% top notch. In Lexus's early years, they were kind of cheap and dumpy, with the exception of the electroluminescent gauges that distracted drivers from the cold, hard surfaces.

For cars I'd sit in, the latest Sevilles, any 95+ Jaguar XJ, any Audi, or any 90-96 Q45 (not 97-01) do the job for me. The Town Car is quite plush as well.
Cars like the 93-96 FWB are just adequate in that regard. Plain and dated but made up for by being very comfortable and tremendously functional.

I've never cared for BMW interiors. As solidly performing and comfortable cars, the hard plastic and old-fashioned designs never bothered me. Of course, the 760li is something entirely different...

Brett
08-15-06, 08:30 PM
Like the oscillating vents that can tell which side of the car to stay directed at. That impresses me. Maybe that makes me an %#&%. I can deal with that... :p

With regard to the vents, they are actually a bit cooler than you think. the reason they look jerky is not exactly how you explained it before. heres how it goes.

If you get in the car and it is very hot, the vent will turn directly on you until it senses that the cabin has cooled down enough to start moving again. that you have no doubt seen, the cool thing is, the passenger side vents operates differently depending on if someone is sitting in the passenger seat or not. If someone is in the seat, it will blast right on them in a hot cabin, then oscillate fully. But if nobody is in the seat it will do that half oscillate thing towards you, thats when it looks like it broken, but its not...............its very cool

Lord Cadillac
08-16-06, 01:40 AM
With regard to the vents, they are actually a bit cooler than you think. the reason they look jerky is not exactly how you explained it before. heres how it goes.

If you get in the car and it is very hot, the vent will turn directly on you until it senses that the cabin has cooled down enough to start moving again. that you have no doubt seen, the cool thing is, the passenger side vents operates differently depending on if someone is sitting in the passenger seat or not. If someone is in the seat, it will blast right on them in a hot cabin, then oscillate fully. But if nobody is in the seat it will do that half oscillate thing towards you, thats when it looks like it broken, but its not...............its very cool
See? That's exactly the kind of thing I want to see in a Cadillac.. Think about the thought put into the comfort of the passengers of a Lexus. And on the LS460, how it monitors the position of your face - and if it's turned and somebody is stopping short in front of you, the car helps you to avoid a collision.. This stuff impresses me.. But that's just me...

70eldo
08-16-06, 08:04 AM
I think, that if you leave out all that overly high-tech stuff (at least in standard) for now, the Cadillac will be more available for a broader, younger market (pricewise). Since Cadillac does not have the cheapo models in the range like MB (like A and B series), Cadillac first needs to concentrate on getting a market to sell their cars to and the overall quality for reliability. THEN invest in startrek technology to please the more exclusive market.

Especially in Europe there hasn't been a decent PR for Cadillac. No need to come up with even more expensive Cadillacs when you can't even sell the other models...

just my two cents

Lord Cadillac
08-16-06, 09:08 AM
I think, that if you leave out all that overly high-tech stuff (at least in standard) for now, the Cadillac will be more available for a broader, younger market (pricewise). Since Cadillac does not have the cheapo models in the range like MB (like A and B series), Cadillac first needs to concentrate on getting a market to sell their cars to and the overall quality for reliability. THEN invest in startrek technology to please the more exclusive market.

Especially in Europe there hasn't been a decent PR for Cadillac. No need to come up with even more expensive Cadillacs when you can't even sell the other models...

just my two cents
That's some pretty good input.. Maybe that's what they're doing...

P-Funk
08-16-06, 10:10 AM
I think you answered your own question basically. If the whole world minus the US doesn't like US cars then who is the biased one? Your from america so you will be biased towards american cars. After being in a new LS and CLS as well as a XLR-V for 100k for the XLR-V I just don't see what you're paying for when cars that cost less have much nicer/better quality used for their interiors. The LS has the feel of a much more expensive look to it (interior wise) then that of any of the new Cadillac's. My dad's buddy own's a Cadillac dealership and I swing by there every once in awhile and I've been in every Cadillac model and nothing has matched the interior to that of the higher up models to that of the BMW's, Lexus, or Benz. If you like the Cadillac's interiors then hey more power to ya but Cadillac still has a little ways to go to catch up to the rest of the pack.

How did I answer my own question here?
There is a lot of bias around the world against anything American (not just cars) and it doesn't matter if the American product is better or not.

Elvis
08-16-06, 10:27 AM
I don't worry about American auto exports at all. We'll never be a major player in the European or Asian markets. We might be able to get something rolling in South America, but it's too late everywhere else.

We're the largest automotive consumer in the world, yet our own people prefer imports to what we make right here at home. Somebody just screwed up, plain and simple. When you're in a hole, the first thing to do is stop digging. I think the GM/Delphi settlement was a step in that direction.

In the old days, Chevy/Pontiac were the low-end GM vehicles. People graduated to Buick/Olds when they could afford something nicer because they trusted GM quality. Eventually some would aspire to Cadillac, but not everyone.

Today, each GM brand seems to be standing alone, Cadillac in particular. Cadillac never needed an entry-level vehicle like the CTS. GM doesn't operate as a team anymore. There's still some sharing of models and technology, but nothing like the old days.

I'm sure in some ways that's a good thing, but they sold an awful lot of those Monte Carlo/Regal/Grand Prix/Cutlasses in the 70's and 80's.

Blackout
08-16-06, 12:36 PM
How did I answer my own question here?
There is a lot of bias around the world against anything American (not just cars) and it doesn't matter if the American product is better or not.And the same is for americans. You said that you couldn't see as to how we can say that the Lexus' interior is better then a Cadillac's. Well the reasoning behind that is you are biased towards american cars. Because like I have said after being in both top models from Lexus and Cadillac there is no comparison interior wise and there is zero reason why a XLR-V is 100k when the LS is superior in damn near every way except for performance aspects and its damn near half the cost as a XLR-V. Cadillac had a hard enough time selling the XLR for $70k so with brilliant GM/Cadillac thinking we will shove in a hi-po engine and bump the price up another 30k and we'll have a winner! And GM wonders why they are in such trouble

DILLIGAF
08-16-06, 01:49 PM
And the same is for americans. You said that you couldn't see as to how we can say that the Lexus' interior is better then a Cadillac's. Well the reasoning behind that is you are biased towards american cars. Because like I have said after being in both top models from Lexus and Cadillac there is no comparison interior wise and there is zero reason why a XLR-V is 100k when the LS is superior in damn near every way except for performance aspects and its damn near half the cost as a XLR-V. Cadillac had a hard enough time selling the XLR for $70k so with brilliant GM/Cadillac thinking we will shove in a hi-po engine and bump the price up another 30k and we'll have a winner! And GM wonders why they are in such trouble
The XLRV is 100k because of the UAW,trade deficits,ext,ext,ext.GM is not in any more trouble than the US in general.GM has not been listening(agreed)?However,making hi-po cars opened up a few new markets.I need to get back to my non union job,i'll continue this rant later.

Jesda
08-16-06, 03:05 PM
The XLR-V is 100k because its a freaking awesome deal compared to the SL600.

GM's best years were when divisions did -not- operate as a team, and competed internally and created some brilliant products with great designs.

Destroyer
08-16-06, 04:35 PM
And the same is for americans. You said that you couldn't see as to how we can say that the Lexus' interior is better then a Cadillac's. Well the reasoning behind that is you are biased towards american cars. Because like I have said after being in both top models from Lexus and Cadillac there is no comparison interior wise and there is zero reason why a XLR-V is 100k when the LS is superior in damn near every way except for performance aspects and its damn near half the cost as a XLR-V. Cadillac had a hard enough time selling the XLR for $70k so with brilliant GM/Cadillac thinking we will shove in a hi-po engine and bump the price up another 30k and we'll have a winner! And GM wonders why they are in such troubleWhy are you comparing an XLR-V to an LS Lexus?. Last time I checked they were two totally different cars targeting two totally different audiences. Far as the XLR-V goes doesn't the base Vette convertible offer similar performance numbers for a much cheaper price?. I'd venture to say based on Northstars of the past that the Vette would be more reliable as well.

Jesda
08-16-06, 04:40 PM
Heh, massive differences between the XLR and Corvette, and its not just the engine.

On a short list, consider the luxury, style, hardtop, comfort, quiet, smoothness, ride, steering, service, warranty, suspension, refinement... Cadillac buyers are looking for luxury-sport. There's nothing remotely luxurious about the tupperware Corvette.

Sure, theyre both on the same platform, and the similarities mostly end there.

Blackout
08-16-06, 04:44 PM
Why are you comparing an XLR-V to an LS Lexus?. Last time I checked they were two totally different cars targeting two totally different audiences. Far as the XLR-V goes doesn't the base Vette convertible offer similar performance numbers for a much cheaper price?. I'd venture to say based on Northstars of the past that the Vette would be more reliable as well.I'm just using Cadillac's top dog compared to Lexus' top dog and saying that with the XLR-V costing $100k what do you get? With the LS costing damn near half as much what do you get? You get a shit load more options and gadgets as well as much nicer interior. Yeah you don't get the performance but with the XLR-V what else do you get compared to the XLR? You get a hi-po engine. So thats worth $30k? And I agree with you about the blown Northstar's. Never been a fan of them and never will be a fan of them. Like you said I'll take a Vette Vert' and have much more fun since I atleast can get a stick shift with it

Blackout
08-16-06, 04:48 PM
The XLR-V is 100k because its a freaking awesome deal compared to the SL600.Jesda I usually agree with you but you are sooooo wrong with that statement. SL600 is a much nicer package with a lot more hp and tq and with it's twin turbo V12. The XLR-V is the poor man's version of the SL600. If you think otherwise your only kidding yourself

Jesda
08-16-06, 05:20 PM
Jesda I usually agree with you but you are sooooo wrong with that statement. SL600 is a much nicer package with a lot more hp and tq and with it's twin turbo V12. The XLR-V is the poor man's version of the SL600. If you think otherwise your only kidding yourself

The twin-turbo AMG version you're referring to is $186k.

DILLIGAF
08-16-06, 05:34 PM
Jesda I usually agree with you but you are sooooo wrong with that statement. SL600 is a much nicer package with a lot more hp and tq and with it's twin turbo V12. The XLR-V is the poor man's version of the SL600. If you think otherwise your only kidding yourself
I don't know if the sl600 is 35,000 dollars nicer.Are my numbers close?The XLR V is a awesome looking car and nice performer.The Mercs are all awesome cars no doubt.I really don't care if Honda,Toyota,nissan,ext,ext make a luxury line of cars.Their all gutless,small and typical and still just another import.Cadillac's entrys into the luxury sport market are spot on in my opinion.The V series is ground breaking.As soon as Cadillac wins over more market share from the imports,things will be different.

Blackout
08-16-06, 05:44 PM
The twin-turbo AMG version you're referring to is $186k.I'm talking about the SL600. The AMG version is even more badass. Here's a link to Benz's spec page on the SL600. Mercedes-Benz USA, Model Specifications for the 2007 SL600 Roadster (http://www.mbusa.com/models/features/specs/overview.do?modelCode=SL600R&class=07_SL)

Here's a write up about the SL600 from Forbes and they talk about Cadillac a decent amount in the article as well. BTW the article is from 2004 so the hp and tq numbers they give are off for the SL600. But I love the first sentence from the article....

If General Motors' vice chairman of product development, Robert A. "Bob"Lutz , wants Cadillac to sell cars for more than $100,000, perhaps he should study the Mercedes-Benz SL600.
2005 Mercedes-Benz SL-Class Reviews - ForbesAutos.com (http://www.forbesautos.com/reviews/2005/mercedes_benz/sl_class/testdrive.html)

EDIT: After reading the article this is very nice to read especially if you want a nice convertible sports car.

What it gives you in place of machismo is refinement. For instance, the roof folds or unfolds in only 16 seconds

Jesda
08-16-06, 05:50 PM
Once optioned to match the XLR-V, it exceeds $140k. You then have to ask yourself whether the SL600 is worth a 40% premium. I suppose thats debateable.

Blackout
08-16-06, 06:09 PM
Once optioned to match the XLR-V, it exceeds $140k. You then have to ask yourself whether the SL600 is worth a 40% premium. I suppose thats debateable.The only option on the SL600 that the XLR-V has is the run flat tires. Other then that the SL600 has options that the XLR-V wish it could have as well as any other car on earth wishes it could have *COUGH*DISTRONIC*COUGH* as well as voice control, and no i am not saying voice control is something new but the XLR-V doesn't have it as well as the Panorama roof, and steering wheel gearshift paddles. They have 6 different rims to choose from, and those illuminated door sills are hot!

Jesda
08-16-06, 06:33 PM
Indeed, lots of really cool options. But MB charges extra for bluetooth, park assist, and voice recognition, while Cadillac offers them as standard hardware. I guess its all rather irrelevent though, because at $136k you arent going to be as concerned over option prices. It then becomes a question of whether you can or want to shell out a midsize-luxury-sedan-worth of money for the sophistication and heritage of the SL. A lot of people do, but until recently its only competitors were the weaksauce SC430 and the aging Jaguar XK8.

The XLR/XLR-V, BMW 6/M6, and new Jaguar XK bring the sub-100k luxury roadster segment a little closer to the SL. The price isnt as justifiable as it once was.

thebigjimsho
08-16-06, 07:52 PM
I've never been much a Jaguar fan but the new XK is pretty sweet.

Destroyer
08-16-06, 07:57 PM
Seems like $136k is a lot of money for a car till you realize the XLR-V is $100k. I think a $36k premium for an SL600 is justified over the XLR-V. Besides the obvious power and quality difference, the SL600 is just plain sexier. :thumbsup:

thebigjimsho
08-16-06, 08:05 PM
I still think the first AMG SL55 was the best looking SL ever!

Jesda
08-16-06, 08:26 PM
I dunno, I think the XLR-V is way more of a stylish head-turner. But the 'world class' award goes to the tried and true SL. During MB's quality decline, its at least one great car they didnt screw up.

Destroyer
08-16-06, 11:36 PM
I dunno, I think the XLR-V is way more of a stylish head-turner. But the 'world class' award goes to the tried and true SL. During MB's quality decline, its at least one great car they didnt screw up.Around here the XLR's are abundant, they dont really stick out. The SL's are abundant as well but they STILL stick out. I'd buy a 5 year old example of either when they depreciate to almost nothing. :thumbsup:

Jed95fwb
08-25-06, 12:08 PM
I have driven the Lexus LS 430. The Lexus is a very nice driving car. It is extremely smooth, polished and you can barely hear the engine. The only problem with it is that it is a bland, uninspired car to look at. It costs upwards of $60K and it has no style. Like all Toyota products, thay take a dull car and refine it until it's a high quality, flawlessly made...dull car. When the HT-4100 in my great uncle's 84 Eldorado finally gave up after 10 years at an extremely high mileage of 29,000, he bought the 430 to replace it. That Eldo was slow (0-60 took all day), but it had a presence that the cookie cutter Lexus will never have. Inside, it felt like you were at a fine men's club. Red button tufted leather, thick Tangier carpeting and an abundance of wood and metalwork that looks better to me than that high gloss stuff in the somber Lexus. And furthermore, when you pulled up in the Eldorado, people knew it was a Cadillac. It was the car that inspired me when i was a kid to own a Cadillac someday. It was ultimately classy in a Vegas sort of way. Do you think that kids get excited about the LS 430 in the same kind of visceral way?

Lately. Cadillac HAS been going after Lexus and it shows. IMO, the DTS is an expensive, not-as-good Lexus copy. Cadillac designers should be happy. They stripped every inch of uniqueness out of the car, save for a Cadillac grille and taillights that were reinstated for 06. What is a Cadillac without the Chrome, the pillow-top interior and acres of wretched excess in and out? Cadillac even made the Wreath and Crest generic looking, sort of a CVS-brand Cadillac. And right as the whole retro craze kicked in, Cadillac committed the ultimate sin, They got rid of the beloved tail fins. Where can i go for them now??? and Most importantly, when will they come back??

What I wish for is a Cadillac with all of the trimmings AND all of the quality. A cross between a boring, well made LS 430 and an exciting, poorly made 84 Eldorado. I want something that proudly proclaims it's an American, isn't afraid to offend some people and out classes those highly polished camrys of the world.

Lord Cadillac
08-25-06, 12:42 PM
You'd be surprised at how many people actually think the Lexus LS430 is a "hot" car.. But you're right, it doesn't even begin to touch the surface of the old, boxy Eldorado, design-wise or presence-wise.. The 1980 Cadillac Eldorado Biarritz is what made me a Cadillac enthusiast.. My Father owned one when I was a kid and I'll never forget how people looked at the car (and my Father).. At that time, cars meant nothing to me - I was 13 years old - but it certainly left an impression...

Jed95fwb
08-25-06, 01:53 PM
It just begs the question as to how many of us were turned on to Cadillacs from the cars owned by our cool older relatives.

It seems like some kind of a testament that these 80's Cadillacs are already being collected, even those with "questionable" engines, like the 8-6-4 and the 4100. I wonder if cars like the "hot" Lexus LS 430 will ever be collectible? Imagine someone doing a restoration on one of those, with the insulation and connectors all brittle on miles of wiring. On our Caddies, we have to replace the filler panels, but most of the Lexus is made of that soft, squishy plastic.

We should get an 80's Biarritz and devise a way to sneak it into Rick Wagoner's office, like the horse in Animal House. Maybe he will see how great GM used to be if he was forced to look at it every day.

Maybe we just have to wait for the baby boomers to retire and all of us children of the 80's will put cool Cadillacs back into production.

Lord Cadillac
08-25-06, 02:44 PM
I'd love a retro 1979-1985 Cadillac Eldorado! And I seriously doubt a Lexus LS430 will ever be a collectible.. At least not anything like the Eldorados...

Caddy Man
08-25-06, 03:29 PM
The XLR-V is 100k because its a freaking awesome deal compared to the SL600.

GM's best years were when divisions did -not- operate as a team, and competed internally and created some brilliant products with great designs.

I agree...go out and price a SIMILIARLY OPTIONED SL 55 AMG and the XLR-V. I priced the SL 55 with all the options that are standard on the XLR-V and guess what? The Mercedes was priced aroudn 135,000. That 100k looks like hell of a deal now huh? Plus its faster or at least just as fast and handles a bit better also.

Oh and down here...the SL is very played out. Everyone and there mom wants one. Ive always been the guy who kinda roots for the underdog. If I wasnt, I would be driving a BMW 330 just like everyone else and not a Cadillac CTS.

Caddy Man
08-25-06, 03:44 PM
I'm just using Cadillac's top dog compared to Lexus' top dog and saying that with the XLR-V costing $100k what do you get? With the LS costing damn near half as much what do you get? You get a shit load more options and gadgets as well as much nicer interior. Yeah you don't get the performance but with the XLR-V what else do you get compared to the XLR? You get a hi-po engine. So thats worth $30k? And I agree with you about the blown Northstar's. Never been a fan of them and never will be a fan of them. Like you said I'll take a Vette Vert' and have much more fun since I atleast can get a stick shift with it

Well for one...the XLR is hell of a lot cooler and probably way more fun to drive than an LS.

I mean, the bMW 750, the Mercedes S550, the Jaguar XJ and the Audi A8 ALL look way more stylish and more fun than an LS. The LS is a type of car you drive or ride in, and when you get out, it leaves that empty feeling. Its just a 'meh' type of car. It dosnt excite the soul whatsoever.