: Maff screen remove? power gains?



13secSTS
08-05-06, 11:35 PM
has anyone removed the screen inside the mAF on thier norhtstar V8 engine? any problems? I have a 98 Deville Concours with a KN Filter. Im looking to pick up any extra HP i can findll

CadillacSTS42005
08-05-06, 11:55 PM
hahahaha funny!

dkozloski
08-06-06, 03:40 AM
That's a great idea. Cadillac engineers put that air straightener in there to mess up the way the engine runs just to tick you off. Be sure you throww it away so there is no chance you could ever put it back for some reason.

FrankT
08-06-06, 08:08 AM
As stated above, you’re better off leaving the MAF screen in place. Also be careful with your K&N air filter, oil from the filter will eventually leave an oil film on the Mass Air Flow elements, now dirt will accumulate on them contaminating the sensor. Then, you may run too lean and lose performance.

Take care,

Frank

Ranger
08-06-06, 10:23 AM
As Koz said, it is not a "screen" it is an air flow straightener and it is not restrictive. Leave it in place and heed Franks advice regarding oil film.

JimD
08-06-06, 10:52 AM
That's a great idea. Cadillac engineers put that air straightener in there to mess up the way the engine runs just to tick you off. Be sure you throww it away so there is no chance you could ever put it back for some reason.

Right there is the reason GM is losing market share every month. They employ these teams of high dollar engineers and lock them in modern labs with state of the art equipment to measure every possible engine performance variable to be 120% certain there is no unfound torque. Oh, and all the while, the EPA and the state of California are hanging around enforcing emmisions / and fuel economy standards.

Think of the engines they could build if GM just hired a few guys to cruise the internet all day locating 'free' performance hints and (un-tested) aftermarket parts.

eldorado1
08-06-06, 01:30 PM
So..... Does that mean you want a turbonator? :D

unruley247
08-06-06, 06:44 PM
thats funny my buddy took his air straigtner off and brought a hpelminator. know he sez there was a 20hp increase. What a foool.:thepan:

UGOTIT
08-06-06, 07:02 PM
20 HP wow!

Ranger
08-06-06, 07:30 PM
thats funny my buddy took his air straigtner off and brought a hpelminator. know he sez there was a 20hp increase. What a foool.:thepan:
Just goes to prove P.T Barnum was right.

He can probably add another 15-20 hp if he uses the fuel line magnets.

CadillacSTS42005
08-06-06, 07:41 PM
hahahaha

want upgrades?

BUY A HONDA!

unruley247
08-06-06, 09:01 PM
He can probably add another 15-20 hp if he uses the fuel line magnets.[/quote]
I'm going to suggest that and c if he does it that will be great to laugh at:alchi:

Ranger
08-06-06, 09:37 PM
If he is that dumb, he should not be allowed to operate machinery.

codewize
08-06-06, 09:40 PM
And adds and exhaust O-Pipe and an engine oil bypass kit found here (http://kalecoauto.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=1&zenid=855f66d3dfff0b1a2eb770b54da1c9e3)

13secSTS
08-06-06, 09:43 PM
He can probably add another 15-20 hp if he uses the fuel line magnets.
I'm going to suggest that and c if he does it that will be great to laugh at:alchi:[/quote]

From some of the comments made it is clear that there are couple of little boys in here that have alot of growing up to do. I appreciate any genuine feedback from others but you wont find any fuel magnets on my car. If you want something to laugh at just stand nude in front of the mirror sometime. Its not my first day on the block. As far as K+N filters go, they do improve power. The maf sensor should be cleaned occasionally with or without a aftermarket filter.

codewize
08-06-06, 09:51 PM
We're not little boys we just know better. We've been around these cars and have asked these questions. I myself am pretty new to the N* world but have been tweaking cars for a long time.

What proof do you have that ANY after market air filter improves HP?

I can show you guys on this board that have dynoed cars with and without and in all cases gained nothing and some even lost.

Now on the other hand a Volant CAI or and maybe other after market CAI's DO in fact show an increase in HP on the Dyno. When the folks here say something they're not making it up.

I'm the first one to want to mod something for performance gain, but what I've found is that the engineers at GM have pretty well tweaked the N* systems. Your getting more than 1 HP per CID in a stock full size luxury car. I'd say that's pretty friggin sweet.

CadillacSTS42005
08-06-06, 10:28 PM
little boys hehe your funny

we may need to grow up but before you call us childish you need to use that nifty button called the search button on the forum and see just how stupid YOU are. K&Ns do nothing but decrease your low end torque and perhaps give you a little more top end, however less you have a factory Z like me it wont matter b/c at 135 mph your car is DEAD. ill make this simple
you
know
nothing
about
the
northstar.

its not like the vette ls1 or ls6, etc etc which has modability, the 4.6 N* is 281 Cubic Inches and pushed over 1 hp per cube. VERY impressive for an engine of its size. the only way to gain power is though forced induction or though a larger tb. THATS it. Im 19, call me a child all you want, but i know alot more than you so get used to it!

and on a side note you called ALOT of major people on the forum childish you burnt MANY bridges by opening that big mouth of yours way too quickly, ESPECIALLY RANGER!

Ranger
08-06-06, 10:30 PM
Fuel magnets where not aimed at you. Go back and reread post #8.

CadillacSTS42005
08-06-06, 10:32 PM
he doesnt know how to read Ranger he opens that big mouth of his way to quickly before he actually researches. but then again hes a know it all and we all should therefore humble ourselves before him

dkozloski
08-06-06, 11:23 PM
Hire them young while they still know everything.

weister42
08-07-06, 02:20 AM
Well my MAF screen is missing and I didn't notice any problems, so I guess it's not really an upgrade/downgrade of any sort.

How do you clean the MAF sensor?

codewize
08-07-06, 07:13 AM
You will get better throttle response and better high end with the air straightener in place. Probably better fuel mileage too.


Well my MAF screen is missing and I didn't notice any problems, so I guess it's not really an upgrade/downgrade of any sort.

How do you clean the MAF sensor?

JimD
08-07-06, 08:46 AM
[/quote]From some of the comments made it is clear that there are couple of little boys in here that have alot of growing up to do. I appreciate any genuine feedback from others but you wont find any fuel magnets on my car. If you want something to laugh at just stand nude in front of the mirror sometime. Its not my first day on the block. As far as K+N filters go, they do improve power. The maf sensor should be cleaned occasionally with or without a aftermarket filter.[/QUOTE]



To measureably improve the performance of an air pump, you must pump more air IN and OUT. With a naturally aspirated Northstar, pumping more air is going to be a good bit more involved than using a non-paper air filter and low restriction exhaust. More noise does not = more torque.

I think the analogy has been suggested before today; "all the low hanging fruit has been picked".

This child is looking forward to reading your experience regarding measureable torque improvements. Please provide a detailed cost/benefit analysis.

Ranger
08-07-06, 12:06 PM
Well my MAF screen is missing and I didn't notice any problems, so I guess it's not really an upgrade/downgrade of any sort.

How do you clean the MAF sensor?
The MAF sensor is a heated wire. Intake air cools it. More air = cooler, less air = hotter. Resistance is mearured and sent back to the PCM. Clean the wire carefully with a cotton swap and alcohol. It should not need any cleaning with a stock paper filter, only if you are using an oiled K & N.

weister42
08-07-06, 05:11 PM
Well I used a K&N air filter for about one or two oil changes, is that going to cause any oil deposits? I just don't want to clean the MAF sensor and mess it up.

13secSTS
08-07-06, 07:25 PM
Well alot of comments were made as expected and I take all info with a grain of salt. To add to Rangers answer about the Maf cleaning method, I also have used a fairly new item that is specifically called Maf sensor cleaner. It is a spray can with a non harmful cleaner similar to Throttlebody cleaner. TO respond to the comment that K+N filters dont increase HP, this is clearly a opinion as thousands of people have Dynoed a increase in Power. Myself included since I have access to one. I go to the track weekly and just about every car there has a high flow filter. Are they all idiots? Telling the world the K+N is a scam will get you flamed more than my comments ever will. And yes I do know a little about the Northstar engine. I have tuned progressive Nitrous systems to operate without error in 4,000lb caddies and put them into the mid 13s. I have also installed them into Fiero's and done just about every aspect of service to them on my own vehicles. My simple original question was something I did not know with certainty and I wanted some opinions. To back up my question furthermore, most aftermarket high flow MAF units do not include a screen at all. Im currently running a 80mm Mustang Cobra MAF on my 95 Taurus SHO yamaha engine. No problems ever! and a +9HP gain with the K+N. I do understand all engines are different which is why i chose this specific forum to find answers. I hope this clears the air,

unruley247
08-07-06, 07:48 PM
Man this is crazy! Just so everyone KNOWS I was talking about a FRIEND OF MINES not sum1 in the forum or thread.

Ranger
08-07-06, 09:50 PM
I think most of us realize that.

danbuc
08-08-06, 07:16 AM
TO respond to the comment that K+N filters dont increase HP, this is clearly a opinion as thousands of people have Dynoed a increase in Power. Myself included since I have access to one. I go to the track weekly and just about every car there has a high flow filter.



Where's the graph?

Where are the time slips?

You say these things, yet provide no results. Many other have and they show no gains. You have to realize that you can't make a general assumption that the K&N filter will increase power in every application...because it simply doesn't. What's the difference in 60ft times with the paper filter and K&N? If you go to the track so often, you should have no problem pulling up the numbers.

Most newer MAF sesnors (in particular GM's) have been designed to function properly without the use of a air flow strightening device. That doesn't mean that one which orignially had one will work without it as well.


Im currently running a 80mm Mustang Cobra MAF on my 95 Taurus SHO yamaha engine. No problems ever! and a +9HP gain with the K+N.

Where's the graph?

Spouting numbers off like that means absolutely nothing without viable proof. Granted, it's extrememly easy these day to somply photshop a dyno graph and pass it off as real, but even that is better than nothing. Until I see some graphs, or timeslips....I'm calling shenanigans on your "results" from the K&N.

unruley247
08-08-06, 09:05 PM
I agree if u show me sum #'s that show a gain of more than 1hp i wil stop dissing K&N.

01STS
08-08-06, 10:31 PM
Case in point. 2000 Vette with LS1. Had a lean issue on the dyno. No real mods other than cold air intake and catback and the screen removed for the stock mass air. Replaced the now junk mass air with a new stock unit at A/F ratios when back to normal and it picked UP another 8hp. So much for the screen trick.

Ranger
08-08-06, 10:34 PM
Proof positive that removing the air flow straightener does more harm than good.

Raze
08-10-06, 10:24 AM
I wanted to throw in a little tid bit, the TB screen, which has been called an air 'straightener' is incorrect. I'm only saying this as I happen to do research on among other things jet engine aerodynamics and if it were a 'straightener' it would look more like 'turning vanes' which actually alter the exit path of the flow with as little frictional losses as possible. Turning vanes look like small airfoils placed vertically next to each other to help reduce those losses around corners. The screen everyone is refering to is actually there to improve uniformity of the airflow inside the intake manfiold which provides a more uniform amount of air into each cylinder, thus reducing the chance for one cylinder having a more or less rich/lean mix.

Just wanted to make the clarification for everyone's benefit, not trying to step on any toes.

eldorado1
08-10-06, 01:38 PM
I wanted to throw in a little tid bit, the TB screen, which has been called an air 'straightener' is incorrect. I'm only saying this as I happen to do research on among other things jet engine aerodynamics and if it were a 'straightener' it would look more like 'turning vanes' which actually alter the exit path of the flow with as little frictional losses as possible. Turning vanes look like small airfoils placed vertically next to each other to help reduce those losses around corners. The screen everyone is refering to is actually there to improve uniformity of the airflow inside the intake manfiold which provides a more uniform amount of air into each cylinder, thus reducing the chance for one cylinder having a more or less rich/lean mix.

Just wanted to make the clarification for everyone's benefit, not trying to step on any toes.

I hate to disagree with your disagreement, but I do. :)

The "screen" is there to create a laminar flow across the mass airflow sensor, which as previously noted is a heated wire. If the screen is not there, there will be swirling and turbulent air entering the MAF sensor, which will give erroneous readings as the air flows front and back and side to side, instead of straight across the wire.

There actually is no mechanical correction for airflow uniformity in regards to cylinder filling. Nor is there any need to be. In even the most perfectly designed system, one cylinder will always steal more air than the next. It's just the nature of the beast. However, with sequential fuel injection systems, this can be compensated for by altering the fuel trims for each individual cylinder. These can be seen in LT1 systems for instance - where at idle fueling can be different by 4% or more between cylinders.

clarkz71
08-10-06, 02:00 PM
The screens are indeed there to straighten, or smooth the airflow over the heated wire of the MAF sensor.

Ranger
08-10-06, 02:02 PM
I hate to disagree with your disagreement, but I do. :)

The "screen" is there to create a laminar flow across the mass airflow sensor, which as previously noted is a heated wire. If the screen is not there, there will be swirling and turbulent air entering the MAF sensor, which will give erroneous readings as the air flows front and back and side to side, instead of straight across the wire.

There actually is no mechanical correction for airflow uniformity in regards to cylinder filling. Nor is there any need to be. In even the most perfectly designed system, one cylinder will always steal more air than the next. It's just the nature of the beast. However, with sequential fuel injection systems, this can be compensated for by altering the fuel trims for each individual cylinder. These can be seen in LT1 systems for instance - where at idle fueling can be different by 4% or more between cylinders.

That is exactly what our old Guru always said.

Raze
08-10-06, 03:37 PM
Guys, I wasn't disagreeing and you missed what I was saying so let me try to clarify. I was trying to differentiate 'straightening' flow vs create uniformity in flow also known as producing 'laminar' flow. I can see why what I said was misconstrued so give me a second and I'll explain. When you use the term 'straighten' in aerodynamics it usually refers to altering the direction of an air mass relative to whatever you're going to use it for downstream. As an example, in windtunnels we use turning vanes to 'straighten' flow around corners and pass it through screens to then generate uniformity. In no way did I imply that the screen was not used to help produce laminar flow, in fact my exact words were:

"The screen everyone is refering to is actually there to improve uniformity of the airflow"

I was just trying to help you all so you don't use the terms incorrectly. Uniform and laminar flow are used interchangeably but most people stay away from the term laminar as it implies linear flow properties that don't necessarily hold true in practice. I know it sounds nit picky but I'm just trying to share my knowledge and experience.

clarkz71
08-10-06, 05:02 PM
The screen everyone is refering to is actually there to improve uniformity of the airflow inside the intake manfiold which provides a more uniform amount of air into each cylinder


Actually, your exact words were "improve uniformity of the airflow inside the intake manifold":tisk: I believe it's the airflow through the MAF sensor that's being "improved".

Raze
08-10-06, 06:24 PM
Clark you're right, my bad, but just use the terms correctly from now on and I'll be happy :)

codewize
08-10-06, 07:12 PM
I hereby certify this thread as way out of control.

:hammer:

clarkz71
08-11-06, 10:36 AM
:yeah: I'm glad we got that STRAIGHTENED out.