: Noisy Lifters



tedd
07-22-06, 11:46 AM
'98 Deville w/ Northstar and 102,000 miles. Lifter noise continues after having been replaced. Mechanic states they need time to charge. Any suggestions? Thanks

Elmer Fudd
07-24-06, 12:08 PM
well Tedd I hoped someone who knows about this stuff had an answer for you, because I don't know enough to offer anything.

Supposedly weak or semi-collapsed lifters can take 10 -15 minutes to "pump up".....but brand new???? Sheesh I would think it would be pretty quick.

GL

eldorado1
07-24-06, 04:13 PM
They can get some air trapped in them. Switch to a thinner oil if you haven't already... That will work the air out as they bleed down. It will be noisier on startup, but after a few weeks should be okay.

tedd
07-25-06, 04:13 PM
I was hoping for more input as well; Thanks for your replies.

Any other suggestions for this situation?

Elmer Fudd
07-25-06, 10:38 PM
Did you get this done at a Cadillac dealer ? If not, perhaps you could ask them (service dept.) their input?

aamusls06
07-26-06, 10:18 PM
ok, i'm confused now. i too have this problem on my cadillac, except mines clacks after it has ran for a while. i can first crank it in the morning and not here it. i added the marvels mystery oil and reduced the noise a small amount, but now it's back at it again.

i guess i want to ask is it worth getting fixed, because i have driven it 6000 miles since april and haven't had any problems with it.

please give me some input guys.

Elmer Fudd
07-26-06, 11:03 PM
Mine ticks off and on (99 n* 111K). Started at about 105K (previous owner). Maintenance log at dealer shows service manager told her is is not worth tearing the motor apart to try and fix, (and she is a doctor so she had the $$ to do it if they had said to) his report said "drive it until the noise quits."

I asked the service tech there that I have known for 15 years and she said the same. It is not unusual on these cars with hi miles and try to just ignore it.

MM Oil has helped a lot, but not cured it (so far - ran about 400 miles).

It is wierd, it comes and goes. Sometimes, quiet as can be, :bouncy: ...others, it ticks like a package from Hezbullah......:mad:

white97deville
07-27-06, 12:41 AM
I've read that some people have had good success quieting noisy lifters by running some Seafoam in the crankcase for a short while. I'm not speaking from personal experience.

dkozloski
07-27-06, 01:15 AM
A North* does not have hydraulic lifters, it has hydraulic lash adjusters. I have found several references to a bleed procedure to get the air out of them but no details. I would go looking in a Helms manual.

unruley247
07-27-06, 01:40 AM
I ran seafoam in my 96 deville the tapping was killing me mech suggested said its the best thing hed seen remove clean and queit lifters without side effect 1 1/2 yrs later 228,000 miles no tap and running like a top.:2thumbs:

chazglenn3
07-27-06, 03:25 AM
I wouldn't say that there are no potential side effects with Seafoam. The Seafoam quieted down my noisy lifter, but also cleaned the crankcase of all the deposits that was keeping my car from leaking oil. Leaks like a sieve now...

Elmer Fudd
07-27-06, 09:26 AM
I ran seafoam in my 96 deville the tapping was killing me mech suggested said its the best thing hed seen remove clean and queit lifters without side effect 1 1/2 yrs later 228,000 miles no tap and running like a top.:2thumbs:


How long did you leave the sea foam in? An entire oil change period, or just a few 100 mi.?

eldorado1
07-27-06, 11:48 AM
Don't use sea foam in your engine oil. It contains water and isopropanol, neither of which you want to add into your oil.

unruley247
07-28-06, 01:43 AM
I used it and had no side effects no new leaks no tapping nothing bad to say and i ran it for 1500 miles before removing oil and i hit I80 and I57 everyday doing at least 75-80 with 228,000 miles and counting

tedd
07-29-06, 12:37 PM
The work was done at an independent garage,which after replacing the lifters, was told by Cadillac to replace the oil pump. The noise continues even after oil pump replacement. Any thoughts?

STS-in-Nottingham
07-29-06, 01:27 PM
I suspect that what you have is a condition called Carbon Rap,
This is usually a result of babying the car around too much, so you get carbon build up on the pistons and the top of the combustion chamber.

Click the link below for more details on this and how to cure it:-

http://www.cadillacforums.com/cadillac-tech.html#full

dkozloski
07-29-06, 09:40 PM
Hey STS! Are you the sheriff there? Good thinking on your part. If you can't make the lifter noise go away using all the common strategies, maybe it isn't lifter noise at all. I'll second the nomination of "carbon rap".

Elmer Fudd
07-30-06, 04:05 PM
Hey guys, could you describe "carbon rap" a little?? My annoying noise souinds like a wood pencil being tapped on the edge of a hardwood desk. It is not really "heavy" or deep. It is on the back bank of cylinders and comes and goes with no ryme or reason. Sometimes you hear it idling, sometimes not. At high speeds it is gone (or blends in with the engine noise). When you do hear it idling, it will rise and fall in about a 4 or 5 second cycle....

The maintenece history shows a recent diagnosis of lifter tick, and the previous owner was told to ignore it. Also, however there was a recent "engine decarbonization to try and cure cold rap".. Could "cold rap" be the same thing??

I have reason to believe this car (99 DEville Concours - 110K) was babied its whole life....... (I just got it).

Any input much appreciated....

Ranger
07-30-06, 10:20 PM
Carbon rap is a cold start noise. It sounds just like a collapsed lifter and usually disappears in 30-60 seconds as the cylinder get warm. Carbon builds up on the head and as the piston reaches TDC it contacts the carbon build up causing the piston to rock on the wrist pin, which inturn causes the skirt to slap the cylinder wall, AKA piston slap. A few good doses of WOT usually cures it and an ocassional dose as preventative maintanence prevents it's reoccurence.

Elmer Fudd
07-30-06, 11:08 PM
Thanks Ranger.......

Well that is not what this is..it must be a balky lifter. Like just tonight, took the wife to eat (bout 8 miles one way), the whole way there is was quiet as the day it came off the showroom. When I started it to come home, tick, tick, tick,......just loud enough to hear it......makin me nuts......ticked the whole way home, except at high RPM's.......the MMO seems to have made it less frequent, been in the motor abouit 500 miles now...still hoping.......

My mechanic says he has some stuff (forget the name but I had not heard of it before) that usually does the job. Anout 500 more miles and I'll change the oil and let him give it a try...its is not seafoam, I had never heard of it....

Ranger
07-31-06, 04:17 PM
Just a thought here, but are you sure it is internal and not a frayed water pump drive belt hitting the protective shroud?

Elmer Fudd
07-31-06, 05:26 PM
Just a thought here, but are you sure it is internal and not a frayed water pump drive belt hitting the protective shroud?


"Internal engine noise" was the diagnosis from the Cady Dealer....but hey they can be wrong too. I'll have a look see myself.....

thanks

clarkz71
07-31-06, 05:33 PM
Just a thought here, but are you sure it is internal and not a frayed water pump drive belt hitting the protective shroud?

That's a good one, and easy to check.

clarkz71
08-01-06, 07:31 AM
A North* does not have hydraulic lifters, it has hydraulic lash adjusters. I have found several references to a bleed procedure to get the air out of them but no details. I would go looking in a Helms manual.

Wrong, GM calls them "VALVE LIFTERS" in the factory service manual. AC Delco calls them "LIFTERS" as well if you look up the part on their web page. Part# HL25, the HL stands for "hydraulic lifter"


1995 CADILLAC ELDORADO V8 4.6L 281cid GAS FI N Engine VIN = Y
Qty Req Qty ACDelco Part# Description
ENGINE / LIFTER/TAPPET
32 HL125 LIFTER,VLV

Elmer Fudd
08-01-06, 12:32 PM
Just a thought here, but are you sure it is internal and not a frayed water pump drive belt hitting the protective shroud?


No luck....belts in perfect shape and noise it there with the cover off. Clearly on back cylinder bank...

Good thought though...I remeber a 84 ford with a v-6. It started ticking and it was the belt - damaged ridges clicking in the wheels. Sounded just like a lifter......

STS-in-Nottingham
08-01-06, 12:49 PM
Could it be the drive belt tensioner pulley?...maybe bad bearings?

dkozloski
08-01-06, 03:09 PM
clarkz1, They may be called lifters out of habit but they are still lash adjusters. A rose by any other name is still a rose. In any case they don't jump up and down as the cam turns. They move only enough to keep the valve clearance correct.

clarkz71
08-01-06, 03:47 PM
dkoz, your thinking of the 2000 & up N* with the roller rockers, the 99 and down have bucket style "lash adjusters" that the cam pushes down on directly. Here's a pic Ranger posted recently of the 2000 & up head.

http://caddyinfo.ipbhost.com/index.php?act=Attach&type=post&id=2638


Here's the HL25 Delco part 99 & down. It appears to be upside down in the pic.

http://domain139.reachlocal.net/servlet/com.entigo.acdelcocatalog.servlet.ProcessImageServ let?languagecd=EN&countrycd=US&user=InternetUser&mfgname=ACDELCO&prodlinecd=51&acpartnbr=HL125

dkozloski
08-01-06, 06:23 PM
You're right! Thanks.

clarkz71
08-01-06, 07:55 PM
:thumbsup:

dkozloski
08-01-06, 08:13 PM
A mild warning is in order. Because of the excessive valve clearance of a collapsed lifter, the opening shock can be high enough to chip lifter and cam surfaces. Mechanical cams have ramps that take up the clearance gradually but no such ramps exist on hydraulic cams. If it were mine, I still would try a couple of high RPM blasts to get the air or debris out the lifter that is keeping it from functioning properly.

Elmer Fudd
08-01-06, 09:58 PM
A mild warning is in order. Because of the excessive valve clearance of a collapsed lifter, the opening shock can be high enough to chip lifter and cam surfaces. Mechanical cams have ramps that take up the clearance gradually but no such ramps exist on hydraulic cams. If it were mine, I still would try a couple of high RPM blasts to get the air or debris out the lifter that is keeping it from functioning properly.

"high RPM" as in right up to the red line? In neutral??

Ranger
08-01-06, 10:21 PM
PCM won't let you redline in neutral. It will shut down at about 4000 RPM.

dkozloski
08-02-06, 12:26 AM
WOT in the lower gears.

Elmer Fudd
08-02-06, 09:10 AM
Gotcha :thumbsup:

unruley247
08-02-06, 01:24 PM
Wot R Also Good For The Hell Of It Hear The N* Roarrrrr

Elmer Fudd
08-02-06, 04:00 PM
Wot R Also Good For The Hell Of It Hear The N* Roarrrrr

Yes it is impressive. This Concours was owned by a lady Dr. in town and I think she babied it too much. It got very regular service at the dealer, Moble 1 every 3000 miles and all ....which is good. But I don't think she did much WOT, to say the least...at about 90 k she had it decarbonized at the dealer due to cold knock. Doesn't seem to do it now.

Well I have been doing some short WOT bursts whenever I get enough interstate in front of me, or on long on ramps from near 0. Dam thing accelerates so fast though, I either run out of room or hit 100 (she put new "S" tires on it so I am afraid to go higher) so fast the WOT doesn't last long.....

the ticking lifer is gradually improving, probably from both the WOT and the Marvelous Magical Mystery Snake oil, I can't even hear it most of the time now......:thumbsup:

Patrick7997
08-03-06, 11:57 PM
Do your WOT's with the car in 2nd gear.... only takes you up to 70-75 or so.... then lift off the pedal, and let it coast back down to 40.... Going 100 is going to get you a driving award.....:thepan:

Elmer Fudd
08-05-06, 09:12 AM
Do your WOT's with the car in 2nd gear.... only takes you up to 70-75 or so.... then lift off the pedal, and let it coast back down to 40.... Going 100 is going to get you a driving award.....:thepan:


To the ignorant like me this sure sounds like tranny-torture....but I have seen it reccomended several places here......

Ranger
08-05-06, 11:23 AM
The proceedure was recommended to us by our old Guru who is a GM powertrain engineer. He always said that the trans was built to take it and we have never heard of a related trans failure.

Elmer Fudd
08-05-06, 12:34 PM
It is for the input of knowledgable folks such as Patick and yourself that I come here, so I may well give it a shot......

Ranger
08-05-06, 06:59 PM
If for no other reason, do it for the fun of it every once in a while.

unruley247
08-05-06, 09:59 PM
I luv to heard that n* roarrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

unruley247
08-05-06, 09:59 PM
I luv to hear that n* roarrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

Elmer Fudd
08-05-06, 11:01 PM
Well I gave the wot in 2nd gear a try. I must admit the tranny did not sound nearly as bad as I thought it would. Did 3 short runs, the last one very near the redline, then coasted back to 40 before returning to drive.

However I did get a brief scare. On the last "run" after I coasted back down I pulled off the road and stopped for a moment. My oil idiot light flickered for just a second. It was so brief I wasn't sure which light it was at first. There was no alarm and no message on the info system. It never actually stayed on, and it never flickered again. I assume the sensor was just a little "shocked" at the car hitting 6000 plus revs, probably for the first time in its life.

I am a little disappointed in the Concours lack of detail when it comes to monitoring the engine. I got my wife a nice 98 Park Ave with only 66K on it about 6 months ago. The driver info system in it gives digital readings on oil pressure and engine temperature. The Concours only does volts. There is no analog pressure gage for oil and the temp. gage doesn't even have numbers on it (BTW what is the top (TDC) hash mark on the temp gage anyway?? Anyone know?....that is where this car runs).

No detail info for oil pressure and temp in a 300 hp N*, and yet GM puts it in the 3.8 liter six in the Park Ave....I don't get it.....

Ranger
08-05-06, 11:09 PM
Maybe this will help decifer the temp guage.
http://caddyinfo.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=10082&st=0

unruley247
08-05-06, 11:15 PM
I wouldn't worry about the oil light flicker. My oil light comes on when it feels like it. No knocking no ticking and been doing it for 3or 4yrs. 228,000 miles and still runs hard. Think GM oil press. sensors are not that reliable

Elmer Fudd
08-05-06, 11:25 PM
Maybe this will help decifer the temp guage.
http://caddyinfo.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=10082&st=0


thanks....sounds like mine is right about normal.....

(I gotta practice using that search function)

chazglenn3
08-06-06, 12:11 PM
Too bad you let off the WOT runs before you got to redline. The 2-3 shift and the tire chirp associated with the shift are worth the price of admission right there :burn: :D