: Preparing for coolant change / Double Checking.



codewize
07-11-06, 09:39 AM
Ok I just want to double check what I've learned so far. I'm preparing to save $100 and change my coolant myself. Here is what I intend on doing.

01 DTS

1) With my custom made 3/4 dowel tool remove drain plug.

2) Allow all coolant to drain.

3) Crank engine a few times to flush even more coolant out of the system. << Is that ok to do?

4) Replace drain plug

5) Pre-dissolve 2 tubes of Bar's Leak Gold Seal in 1/2 gallon of 50/50 coolant mix. <<< Is 1 tube enough?

6) Add half the amount of coolant that was drained then start the engine.

7) Wait for air purges and finish filling the system with 50/50 mix.

Does that sound like I'll get it done without breaking something. I'm very mechanical capable I'm just touchy about the N* because they seem to be sensitive to human error.

zonie77
07-11-06, 10:24 AM
Ok I just want to double check what I've learned so far. I'm preparing to save $100 and change my coolant myself. Here is what I intend on doing.

01 DTS

1) With my custom made 3/4 dowel tool remove drain plug.

2) Allow all coolant to drain.

3) Crank engine a few times to flush even more coolant out of the system. << Is that ok to do?

4) Replace drain plug

5) Pre-dissolve 2 tubes of Bar's Leak Gold Seal in 1/2 gallon of 50/50 coolant mix. <<< Is 1 tube enough?

6) Add half the amount of coolant that was drained then start the engine.

7) Wait for air purges and finish filling the system with 50/50 mix.

Does that sound like I'll get it done without breaking something. I'm very mechanical capable I'm just touchy about the N* because they seem to be sensitive to human error.


This is my opinion on doing it:

1) OK

2) OK

3) OK, but I don't think you'll get much more out, the coolant level should be below the pump so it won't pump anything. Keep it short so you don't damage the seals.

4)OK

5) Not OK. You have to add them into the engine so they don't settle out in the surge tank. Even premixed some will settle. Lower radiator hose is best.

6) Not OK. Add all you can.

7) OK

While you have it drained make sure the purge line is totally clear.

codewize
07-11-06, 11:03 AM
Ok so we'll skip the extra cranking.

5) Even if I follow it with the rest of the coolant you think to much will settle? I'm trying to avoid having to get at the radiator hose.

6) So fill it all the way THEN start the engine and continue after burping.

EDBSO
07-11-06, 11:28 AM
[quote=codewize]3) Crank engine a few times to flush even more coolant out of the system. << Is that ok to do?

filling the system with 50/50 mix.[quote]

I wouldn't crank, pump will likely be dry anyhow. I have heard, but have no personal experience, that you can blow extra fluid out with a shop vac set on blow.

I think 50/50 is the wrong way to do it. You can never get all the old fluid out and you will end up with a 32.87453 to a 67.129372 weak mixture (the rest is Bar's.)

Take the coolant capacity and divide it by 2 and start with 100% concentration and then after add the rest of the water.

I would also flush it out 3 or 4 times.

I would completely fill before I started the engine!

zonie77
07-11-06, 11:41 AM
Ok so we'll skip the extra cranking.

5) Even if I follow it with the rest of the coolant you think to much will settle? I'm trying to avoid having to get at the radiator hose.

6) So fill it all the way THEN start the engine and continue after burping.

5) Yes. The hose is the right way.

6) Yes. After the thermostat opens you should get all the air out. That doesn't happen all the time but all the air should be out after 2 drive cycles, so check it again after you drive it a few times.

codewize
07-11-06, 12:52 PM
So do we need 2 tubes of Bar's Leak or is 1 enough. And the Gold Seal powder is the right stuff, correct?

Patrick7997
07-11-06, 01:59 PM
In step #1, you are not actually removing a drain plug... you are opening a petcock... you will turn the petcock 1 and a half turns counterclockwise, and the radiator fluid will begin draining straight down.... but the petcock itself will not come out.. Kind of like opening a water valve... you spin it counterclockwise, and the water flows....but the handle doesn't come off...

I'm not sure what EDBSO is getting at....I may be misunderstanding or misinterpreting his post. My impression is you can't get ALL the coolant out... but what's left SHOULD be 50/50 mix... you would thus want to add 50/50 mix and fill it up... Dividing the cooling system capacity by 2 and adding that much straight anti-freeze will result in way too much anti-freeze, and not enough distilled water.... again, I may be misunderstanding his post...but I dunno about that....unless he's saying that AFTER flushing, there would be straight water in the system...???????

Many posters on here have also said "don't flush", so, I didn't flush.... and if you ARE going to flush, I would flush with 50/50 mix.... and distilled water only. No hose water, no tap water. That water is full of minerals, which is exactly what you're trying to avoid here, evil minerals that cause problems.

codewize
07-11-06, 04:47 PM
Right, understood. I wasn't sure if it was a petcock or a plug.

I didn't understand the logic behind that either. My thinking was the same as yours. If the coolant in there is 50/50 then all should be well by adding 50/50.

Nah, not going to flush. Whatever comes out, comes out.

Thanks. I think I feel comfortable now.

I also wanted to say that I don't see how Bar's Leak can settle in the tank when the hose is at the bottom of the tank. If your filling the tank and the coolant is flowing right out it won't have time so settle. Plus you're going to chase it with the rest of the coolant.




In step #1, you are not actually removing a drain plug... you are opening a petcock... you will turn the petcock 1 and a half turns counterclockwise, and the radiator fluid will begin draining straight down.... but the petcock itself will not come out.. Kind of like opening a water valve... you spin it counterclockwise, and the water flows....but the handle doesn't come off...

I'm not sure what EDBSO is getting at....I may be misunderstanding or misinterpreting his post. My impression is you can't get ALL the coolant out... but what's left SHOULD be 50/50 mix... you would thus want to add 50/50 mix and fill it up... Dividing the cooling system capacity by 2 and adding that much straight anti-freeze will result in way too much anti-freeze, and not enough distilled water.... again, I may be misunderstanding his post...but I dunno about that....unless he's saying that AFTER flushing, there would be straight water in the system...???????

Many posters on here have also said "don't flush", so, I didn't flush.... and if you ARE going to flush, I would flush with 50/50 mix.... and distilled water only. No hose water, no tap water. That water is full of minerals, which is exactly what you're trying to avoid here, evil minerals that cause problems.

Ranger
07-11-06, 06:02 PM
I wouldn't crank, pump will likely be dry anyhow. I have heard, but have no personal experience, that you can blow extra fluid out with a shop vac set on blow.


:thumbsup: That will get as much additional coolant out as is possible without turning the car upside down. I use this proceedure all the time.

codewize
07-11-06, 06:08 PM
2 more small things

Prestone Dex-Cool GM approved is OK? Doesn't have to be Havoline?

And how many tubes of Bar's Leak Gold Seal? Two?

I know I'm asking a lot but I don't want my N* to be a statistic.

JimD
07-11-06, 06:14 PM
....
I also wanted to say that I don't see how Bar's Leak can settle in the tank when the hose is at the bottom of the tank. If your filling the tank and the coolant is flowing right out it won't have time so settle. Plus you're going to chase it with the rest of the coolant.

Except that under every day driving, the reservoir is a "low flow" part of the cooling system. Coolant is not circulating through the reservoir at anywhere near the volume as the remainder of the plumbing.

If you have the time and inclination to remove and flush the reservoir you will find the interior construction is a series of baffles. If there happens to be slightly too much coolant supplement in the system, the excess supplement will drop out of solution and collect in the reservoir.

The evidence of nasty rusty appearing (no matter how harmless) supplement accumulating in the reservoir "might be / could be" the reason Cadillac and maybe all of GM stopped installing the supplement in the factory coolant fill. Owners / drivers might have been alarmed and reporting the "rust" to the dealer service department folks. I have no way of knowing how that whole deal came about.

And two tubes of Bars Leak Golden Seal powder is not too much to add for a coolant refresh. I always put the supplement in a high flow hose.

EDBSO
07-11-06, 06:14 PM
Clarification.

Do not flush with a chemical flush!!!

This is what I would recommend and you can follow if you would like or not. This is what I did.

1. Take off the filler cap, upper and lower rad hoses.

2. With the garden hose at 3/4 pressure shove the garden hose into the rad hose, seal the opening with a rag and let it run till the water comes out the other end clean.

3. Similarly flush out the rad in both directions till the water runs clean.

4. Also flush out the overflow box and block till they run clean.

5. Connect everything back together fill with hose water, bring up to temperature, allow to cool and drain as much as you can.

6. Fill with distilled water, bring up to temperature, allow to cool and do it again at least 1 more time.

7. The water left in the system is pure and clean with no disgusting DexCool in it.

8. Drain again and add straight coolant to the proper amount and then top up with distilled water.

9. Burp and top up over the next couple of days.

Follow this and you will have a very good drain and flush. Do it your way and too much old DexCool crap will be left in your N*

Just my 2cts.

JimD
07-11-06, 06:27 PM
Clarification.

Do not flush with a chemical flush!!!

Flush 3 to 5 times with distilled or other high quality pure water.

You want ALL the old DexCool coolant out after all that is what you are trying to replace.

I would suspect that you could leave upwards of 3 quarts to a gallon of the old tired crap in your cooling system.

Flush several times with water then add the appropriate full strength coolant and then top up with water.

Agree with the no chemical flush.

Respectfully disagree with the water flush. A water flush is a guarantee to lose control of the desired 50/50 antifreeze/water ratio.

Drain as much as will drain and refill with a measured 50/50 mix. That will refresh the corrosion inhibitor properties of the coolant (the antifreeze properties do not wear out).

EDBSO
07-11-06, 06:40 PM
This is not rocket science.

According to the manual the capacity of my Eldo cooling system is 12.5 quarts or 11.8 litres.

Put 6.25 quarts anti-freeze in and top up with distilled water and you have got it made! 50/50 mix. Page 6-68 of the handbook.

Should have also mentioned when running turn the heater on high to flush the crap DexCool out of the heater core.

Ranger
07-11-06, 08:45 PM
This is not rocket science.

According to the manual the capacity of my Eldo cooling system is 12.5 quarts or 11.8 litres.

Put 6.25 quarts anti-freeze in and top up with distilled water and you have got it made! 50/50 mix. Page 6-68 of the handbook.

Should have also mentioned when running turn the heater on high to flush the crap DexCool out of the heater core.
That is assuming that you get 100% drained. You won't. Now how much coolant do you put in? Premix it, and you won't have to worry. Just pour til it is full.

codewize
07-11-06, 08:57 PM
Did I forget to say I was premixing. This discussion is out of control.

JimD: You can't get all of the old coolant out unless you flush and then you can't ensure a 50/50 mix anymore because you don't know how much water is in the system. Unless you flush with air and then you're still taking a chance.

Guessing is unacceptable. Less than 40% and more than 70% coolant is, or can be harmful to the engine as specified by GM and Havoline.

EDBSO: The goal here is to avoid pulling hoses as the lower is pretty difficult to get to, so I'm told.

Anyway all coolant to be added will be premixed to 50/50. I can certainly say that I have learned a lot with this thread.

GreenMachine
07-11-06, 09:14 PM
Quick advice since I just did this not to long ago (my post here: http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/northstar-performance-technical-discussion/78091-oil-change-coolant-change-friday.html).
Don't bother with the bar's leak tubes. Just ask the guy at the counter for the Dexcool supplement tabs, he'll give you a pack of 6 bars leak tablets (basically they are name brand of the tabs). I decided to buy the pre-mixted 50/50 Prestone GM Approved Dexcool and then one extra of the just strait dexcool (that way if the mix was off for one reason or another I could simply "fix" it hopefully but the mix seems good (the guy at the local shop said it check out ok so good enough for me.)

Fill as much as you can, the slower you fill the more you get in on the first try. Drive it around for 10 mins or so. Fill it up some more if it needs it (it will). Then check it periodically for about a week or at gas fills to make sure it stays full. As it fills up the surge tank it will slowly leave it and go to the system, watch for it to drop, as you fill more, its level will drop slower and slower.

Good luck and I wish I made a petcock tool...would have been ALOT less mess for me.

The shop vac reversed over the fill tank will do the job of blowing it all out of the system just fine (I actually removed all the hoses and blew all I could out (didn't figure out that all I needed was a broom handle cut and such for the tool, ended up blowing with my own wind power all the stuff out, worked just fine :) and put 3 tablets in the upper hose and 3 in the lower. I also got rid of those damn clamps that you need pliers to remove and put the good old screw on ones on.)

The "items" from my day of car work, be careful about the preston you buy, they have a quick fill that is for "all" types of cars, then a green quick fill, then a dexcool quick fill (that has the GM approved markings on it):
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v348/BigEd2006/98deville/coolant-oil-change004.jpg

all in all I got over 2 gallons out of the system, (put in about 2.33 to 2.5 gallons)

zonie77
07-11-06, 09:53 PM
Well at least that was a nice simple question! More opinions on this than on poli:stirpot: tics or religion! And I'm not about to start on either of those!!!

EDBSO
07-11-06, 10:16 PM
That is assuming that you get 100% drained. You won't. Now how much coolant do you put in? Premix it, and you won't have to worry. Just pour til it is full.

Excuse me but you guys just arn't getting it!. http://forums.aaca.org/images/icons/crazy.gif Not even closehttp://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/frown.gif

The title of this thread is "Preparing for a coolant change..." NOT preparing to change out some of or even most of the coolant YOU WANT ALL THAT OLD CRAP OUT!! The buffering capacity is probably just about completely shot. It is a 2001 probably manufactured in 2000 and it could be over 6 years old. Who knows how much baby pee or other crap has been put in there over the years? YOU WANT IT ALL OUT! and fresh put back in. When you change your oil do you leave a quart or two in and call it an oil change? Well perhaps if you are a "quick lube" establishment, heck they do transmission flushes without taking out or adding any transmission fluid.

Let me repeat that from the Hand Book you know the capacity. It is really easy to calculate 50% of the capacity and put that amount in first as the concentrated anti-freeze! Then you top up with distilled water. You are guaranteed to get the mixture right. It doesn't matter if you can't get the last quart or two of distilled water out or even the last 6 quarts of distilled water out. Just get the 6 .25 quarts of antifreeze in and you are guaranteed the right ratio of 50/50,

You don't want the premix for anything but topping up over the years. Doing it your way you haven't got a clue as to how much is left in the system or its condition or its concentration. You just don't know. What do you know? You know that it is exhausted, all used up, CRAP and you want it out.

My way you know that there is only a bit of distilled water left in the block and rad. Then you add the full strength antifreeze and top up with distilled water. AND it is perfect. You are left with only the purest of water and the freshest of antifreeze and you have done a coolant change!

With this I give up you are either going to do it right :thepan: or you are going to do it your way.

Ranger
07-11-06, 10:52 PM
Ok, I see your point and I will give you that your way will eventually get all the old stuff out, but you had better have a refractometer to figure out what coolant/water ratio you have as you try to adjust the mixture to 50/50 during refil. It will be a tedious trial & error method til you get it right.

EDBSO
07-11-06, 11:00 PM
Please let me be nice and say ... from the Hand Book.


Capacities
Transaxle (4T80-E) . . . . . . . . . . 15.0 quarts (14.2 L)
Crankcase (Engine Oil with
Filter Change) . . . . . . . . . . . . 7.5 quarts (7.1 L)
Engine Cooling System . . . . . . . 12.5 quarts (11.8 L)
Fuel Tank . . . . . . . . . . . . . 19.0 U.S. gallons (71.9 L)

50% of 12.5 quarts cooling system capacity is 6.25 quarts.

All you have to be able to do is measure and get 6.25 quarts in the system and you have 50/50 perfect..

codewize
07-12-06, 07:13 AM
I see the point also and I did say coolant CHANGE. I was more or less using that term loosely to refer to the common method of refreshing the coolant, I think.

I'm now wondering if it just isn't easier to have the friggin dealer do this like I was going to for $99.

And I also agree that the only way to get the mix right is by testing it after doing a complete flush like that.

It costs me $20 in Dex-Cool, a couple bucks for the water. Probable going to be 2 hrs in the driveway, although it would save a few bucks, taking to the dealer would insure me that it gets done right and if it doesn't I have someone to blame.

Plus we haven't even discussed disposal yet.

I hate these decisions.

zonie77
07-12-06, 09:34 AM
I

I'm now wondering if it just isn't easier to have the friggin dealer do this like I was going to for $99.


I, taking to the dealer would insure me that it gets done right and if it doesn't I have someone to blame.





This isn't rocket science...Change the coolant and don't worry about it. Get out what you can and redo it in a year or two to replace some of the remainder.

Taking it to the dealer does not insure the job gets done right. Sorry, but I was a mechanic (granted it was a ways back) and there's no knowing if it gets done right. Seeing what goes on in shops makes me do things myself.

clarkz71
07-12-06, 12:02 PM
Zonie's right, I was a Mercedes Benz tech for 20 years, and we always used tap water on drain & fills. Alot of the guys didn't even make sure the mix was 50/50. On another note..... I have to agree with EDBSO, if you add 6.25 qts of DexCool and top off with distilled water you have to have a 50/50 mix. You sure can't get more than 6.25 qts of water in there if there's already 6.25 qts of Dex in the system. 6.25 + 6.25 = ............... 12.5. :highfive:

JimHare
07-12-06, 01:49 PM
Actually, I think you're both right - it just boils down (no pun intended) to preference. If you put 50/50 premix in, regardless of how much coolant is left in the system, you'll have a 50/50 concentration when you're done - UNLESS you had a less or greater than 50/50 in before, in which case EDBSO's method would tend to bring it back to 50/50.

If it WAS 50/50, and you ADD 50/50, you still end up with 50/50, but a percentage of it is "old" - how much? Depends on how much you get out. If you get three gallons out, you're all clear but a pint, which is 1/25th, or 4%, of your coolant. I can't believe that a 4% deviation could be all that important...

(That is, if there are 2 pints to a quart, 4 quarts to a gallon..if I remember my 4th grade arithmetic..which I dont.. lol)

12.5 quarts = 3 gallons plus 1 pint
3 gallons = 24 pints

Much ado.....

Patrick7997
07-12-06, 01:58 PM
Codewize, if I can do it, you can....

And my thinking is along the lines of Zonie's... just do it again in a few months, and 95% of what's in the system will be totally refreshed....

And sadly, Clark & Zonie are right... taking it to the dealer doesn't guarantee anything.... those guys are pushed hard for productivity, just like the rest of us....

Heck, Even if you only drained out HALF of what's in there, and replace with 50/50 mix, it would be greatly refreshing to your cooling system.... and you'll be draining WAY more than half..... nuf said.

codewize
07-12-06, 02:08 PM
Ok I just went down to the dealer and got the supplement tabs. Apparently they're 5 smaller tablets now GM # 12378254 a total of 20g rather than the 3 large tablets.

The dealer told me to only use 4 in the N* AND to break them up and put them right in the tank with the coolant.

Now, I realize that the flow rate in the tank is minimal and that introducing them in a high flow area makes more sense, so, I'm going to

drain the coolant
try to blow some air in the system to flush more out.
Make an attempt at getting the lower hose off, If I can't get that done I'm going to grind these up and put them in the upper hose.
Fill the thing back up and be on my way.

I guess this will be a 'best effort' hybrid of all the suggestions here based on my own knowledge and understanding that I am not, or may not be achieving a total system flush.

I will post the results when I do it.

thu
07-12-06, 02:26 PM
The way I do it in my other cars is:

Drain as much old coolant as possible. Then fill completely full with plain water.

Then drive until thermostat opens and turn the heater to full hot.

Let engine cool. Drain coolant again. Fill again with plain water.

Then drive until thermostat opens and turn the heater to full hot.

Let engine cool. Then drain. Might do it one more time after this.

This may take a couple of days, just drive as normal, nothing special. Don't have to drive just to heat it up, go about your normal business, it will take care of itself. Don't drive tooooo much.

Drain system (pretty much plain water by now) and put in 1/2 system capacity with straight coolant. Fill rest with water.

Over the next couple of days, keep topping off with water.

Presto...guaranteed 50/50 mix.

I'll do the same procedure with my STS, but I'll use distilled water instead.

GreenMachine
07-12-06, 03:56 PM
one other warning, you may hear a "rushing water sound" the first time you get the enigne running, if you didn't break up the tablets (like me, just put 3 in the top, 3 in lower hose) they will get cought on the metal spring or wire in there for a moment and then disolve quickly. The obstruct the flow for just a moment until they disolve quickly in the coolant. Don't be alarmed if you hear that sound the first time. (might also be the stuff pouring into the raditor that makes the noise or air being purged don't know)

If I'm correct the upper house is the return? and the lower is to the engine or is my idea of the flow backwards? In any event they way I did it distributed the tablets stuff evenly in both upper and lower hoses. Seemed like a good idea and felt that way.

I should also note at first I didn't really notice a drop in my operating temperture, usually ran 205-220. but now I somtimes see temperature below 200 while crusiing which I never did before (like 196 or 197, really nice to know it did "something" to help it gain and lose heat better). Might also be the change in oil too helped it, but whatever it makes me feel like I treated it right and should be good for another few years.

AlBundy
07-12-06, 05:30 PM
If Dexcool comes already mix 50/50 whats the talk about adding distilled water(besides the flushing process)?

GreenMachine
07-12-06, 05:51 PM
If Dexcool comes already mix 50/50 whats the talk about adding distilled water(besides the flushing process)?

well if someone flushes they will not be able to use the pre-mix, I just drained and refilled so no "outside" water/elements went into the system. basically the only thing that could have been inside was 50/50mix, so i used the premix. but you flush and then you 50/50 mix, you will actually be deluting the mix unless in a rare chance you got all the flush water out.

AlBundy
07-12-06, 06:16 PM
well if someone flushes they will not be able to use the pre-mix, I just drained and refilled so no "outside" water/elements went into the system. basically the only thing that could have been inside was 50/50mix, so i used the premix. but you flush and then you 50/50 mix, you will actually be deluting the mix unless in a rare chance you got all the flush water out.

I was only speaking about the flushing technics mentioned above. What I ment was if there is a pre-mix, why all the talk about adding distilled water? Mixing it manually makes it more potent or somethin.:confused:

JimHare
07-12-06, 06:26 PM
I think I found (at least around here) that 2 galllons of pre-mix was somewhat more expensive than a gallon of regular and a gallon of distilled water....

codewize
07-12-06, 06:53 PM
I didn't buy the pre mix. I'm premixing straight Dex-Cool with distilled water myself. Same price twice the coolant. The straight Dex-Cool was $8.79 or something and the pre-mixed was $8.59. A gallon of distilled water is $.54 Local Wal-Mart


If Dexcool comes already mix 50/50 whats the talk about adding distilled water(besides the flushing process)?

EDBSO
07-12-06, 07:20 PM
The way I do it in my other cars is:

Drain as much old coolant as possible. Then fill completely full with plain water.

Then drive until thermostat opens and turn the heater to full hot.

Let engine cool. Drain coolant again. Fill again with plain water.

Then drive until thermostat opens and turn the heater to full hot.

Let engine cool. Then drain. Might do it one more time after this.

This may take a couple of days, just drive as normal, nothing special. Don't have to drive just to heat it up, go about your normal business, it will take care of itself. Don't drive tooooo much.

Drain system (pretty much plain water by now) and put in 1/2 system capacity with straight coolant. Fill rest with water.

Over the next couple of days, keep topping off with water.

Presto...guaranteed 50/50 mix.

I'll do the same procedure with my STS, but I'll use distilled water instead.

thu; You can work on my car any time, I like your system!

thu
07-12-06, 09:05 PM
Yah, it's a no-brainer and takes up hardly any of your time and it's easy.

One thing people might be forgetting is to turn on the heater to full hot and turn on the fan to full blast to flush out all that old coolant in the heater core.

codewize
07-12-06, 09:42 PM
I was considering something like this but I wasn't going to span it over several days. I was just going to do it all at the same time maybe over several hours. That is a great way to ensure a 50/50 mix and to get a good flush. Where did you put the sealant?


The way I do it in my other cars is:

Drain as much old coolant as possible. Then fill completely full with plain water.

Then drive until thermostat opens and turn the heater to full hot.

Let engine cool. Drain coolant again. Fill again with plain water.

Then drive until thermostat opens and turn the heater to full hot.

Let engine cool. Then drain. Might do it one more time after this.

This may take a couple of days, just drive as normal, nothing special. Don't have to drive just to heat it up, go about your normal business, it will take care of itself. Don't drive tooooo much.

Drain system (pretty much plain water by now) and put in 1/2 system capacity with straight coolant. Fill rest with water.

Over the next couple of days, keep topping off with water.

Presto...guaranteed 50/50 mix.

I'll do the same procedure with my STS, but I'll use distilled water instead.

Ranger
07-12-06, 10:12 PM
Albundy,
You can get Dex premixed or 100%. Premix is more expensive.

Codewise,
No need to crush the tabs if you put them in either hose (I never do). They will disolve rather quickly when wet and are much easier to insert as a tab.

chevelle
07-12-06, 10:40 PM
No need to crush the pellets or do anything extreme. Just put them into the upper radiator hose. Very easy to get at the hose connection when the coolant is drained on the engine end. Trying to put them into the lower radiator hose or 50/50 upper/lower hoses is just going to extremes for nothing.

The heater circuit flows continuously in a Northstar so running the heater or doing anything extra to purge the heater circuit is not required.

Just drain and refill. What little bit of old coolant in the system will not hurt a thing.

Refill slowly thru the pressure cap opening in the pressurized surge tank. Fill the surge tank to about 1 inch from the cap. Start the engine. Idle for several minutes. Slowly raise the RPM to 4000 and back to idle several times to purge any air out of the system. Top off the surge tank to about 1 inch from the cap and put the cap on. Drive and forget about it. You might want to check it cold after several days of driving and several cold-hot-cold cycles. It should be about 2 inches from the cap fitting when cold.

If you feel you MUST flush the system then forget putting plain water in it...and especially driving it with plain water. Drain and refill. Drive. Let the system "flush" with the fresh coolant. Drain and refill again several days/weeks later. Much better flush, no plain water introduced and far easier. For what an extra fill of coolant costs there is really no reason to consider flushing with fresh water and introducing contaminants from the water into the system and/or loosing control of the 50/50 mix.

Don't put the pellets into the surge tank ever. The material just does not get carried throughout the system.

JimHare
07-13-06, 06:44 AM
The heater circuit flows continuously in a Northstar so running the heater or doing anything extra to purge the heater circuit is not required.

Interesting to know. That's another of the holdovers us ancient mariners have from the "old days" when you needed to do this. Thanks!

codewize
07-13-06, 07:48 AM
Now that's what I'm looking for. Thank you. And I'm not saying that because it's what I want to hear. I'm saying that because he obviously understand the technical details and knows what will and won't work despite the manual. Which we have all been quoting the entire time.

If I were to do the flush that way I would use distilled water anyway. I'll see how much I get out during the drain. If it's only about half then I'll either try to flush some distilled water through it or I'll opt for another change in a few weeks or so. I'll see what I feel like when the time comes.

Hopefully we can get some decent weather around here.




No need to crush the pellets or do anything extreme. Just put them into the upper radiator hose. Very easy to get at the hose connection when the coolant is drained on the engine end. Trying to put them into the lower radiator hose or 50/50 upper/lower hoses is just going to extremes for nothing.

The heater circuit flows continuously in a Northstar so running the heater or doing anything extra to purge the heater circuit is not required.

Just drain and refill. What little bit of old coolant in the system will not hurt a thing.

Refill slowly thru the pressure cap opening in the pressurized surge tank. Fill the surge tank to about 1 inch from the cap. Start the engine. Idle for several minutes. Slowly raise the RPM to 4000 and back to idle several times to purge any air out of the system. Top off the surge tank to about 1 inch from the cap and put the cap on. Drive and forget about it. You might want to check it cold after several days of driving and several cold-hot-cold cycles. It should be about 2 inches from the cap fitting when cold.

If you feel you MUST flush the system then forget putting plain water in it...and especially driving it with plain water. Drain and refill. Drive. Let the system "flush" with the fresh coolant. Drain and refill again several days/weeks later. Much better flush, no plain water introduced and far easier. For what an extra fill of coolant costs there is really no reason to consider flushing with fresh water and introducing contaminants from the water into the system and/or loosing control of the 50/50 mix.

Don't put the pellets into the surge tank ever. The material just does not get carried throughout the system.

codewize
07-15-06, 01:49 PM
Ok here's what I did.

1) Jacked the car from the drivers side

2) After reviewing the drain plug location the the mess that would be made by just pulling the plug, I took a few minutes and removed to plastic splash pan from the underside of the car. It's held on by 17 of those small plastic button type retainers.

Now with the drain plug in plain view and easily accessible I realized that it can be addressed with a socket also. I didn't take the time to fit it but I think it's something like 9/16

3) Removed the cap from the surge tank

4) Removed the plug. Yes this is a plug and NOT a petcock.

5) While it was draining I removed the upper hose from the engine and added 4 tablets.

6) I let it drain down to a small drip then jacked the car from the other side.

7) Blew some air into the surge tank a couple times while holding the overflow hose closed.

I got exactly 6 quarts out. Put it all back together and added 6 quarts of my home made 50/50 mix.

Done!
Thanks for all of your help

AlBundy
07-15-06, 07:21 PM
[quote=codewize]Ok here's what I did.

1) Jacked the car from the drivers side

2) After reviewing the drain plug location the the mess that would be made by just pulling the plug, I took a few minutes and removed to plastic splash pan from the underside of the car. It's held on by 17 of those small plastic button type retainers.

Now with the drain plug in plain view and easily accessible I realized that it can be addressed with a socket also. I didn't take the time to fit it but I think it's something like 9/16

3) Removed the cap from the surge tank

4) Removed the plug. Yes this is a plug and NOT a petcock.

5) While it was draining I removed the upper hose from the engine and added 4 tablets.

6) I let it drain down to a small drip then jacked the car from the other side.

7) Blew some air into the surge tank a couple times while holding the overflow hose closed.

I got exactly 6 quarts out. Put it all back together and added 6 quarts of my home made 50/50 mix.

Done!

Hell I hope I have a drain plug on my year N*. That would make my change that much easier:thumbsup: . Good info.

]

codewize
07-15-06, 08:48 PM
Well you certainly did something funky with the QUOTE tags there.

Anyway I believe the original vehicle discussed on this matter was a 97 Seville or Eldo so I'm thinking you'll have a petcock. I don't know what years or models had which but my 01 DTS had a plug. It has 2 small tits on it so you could open it using the dowel tool described but you could also use a socket.

On mine there is a hole in that plastic splash pan to access the plug but if you don't pull that splash pan off I have a feeling half the coolant you drain will end up laying on top of that thing.

Domino1968
07-15-06, 11:46 PM
I did the job myself on my 2000 DTS, and I too had a plug and not a petcock.

clarkz71
07-16-06, 06:37 AM
My 95 has the plug as well.

codewize
07-16-06, 08:19 AM
Hmm we're all the way back to 95 on several models. That makes me start wondering if the folks with petcocks have had the radiator replaced.

GreenMachine
07-16-06, 12:47 PM
^any of you say for certain that you haven't had a raditor replace (meaning you've owned the car from the beginning or have its service records). Mines a total blur before 59,000 miles so the petcock might be aftermarket. Has almost 90,000 miles now and still good, just getting some sounds here and there from age, need this and that adjusted I think.

codewize
07-16-06, 04:39 PM
Ok here's a kicker. As I mentioned I got exactly 6 quarts out when I drained. I also put exactly 6 quarts back in.

That was yesterday. I drove the car yesterday for a few miles, all was well. Now today I drove the car 30 - 40 miles and the Check Coolant Level warning came on. I got out to look just in case something was leaking. Nothing I can see but the surge tank is pretty low. I was able to add at least another quart maybe quart and a half.

What's that all about?

krimson_cardnal
07-16-06, 05:01 PM
trapped air in the system - me thinks you've overworked a routine service

did you add 50/50 - straight water - straight coolant, now that's the question?

codewize
07-16-06, 06:32 PM
I added my 50/50 mix. I purchased distilled water and straight Dex-Cool and mixed it 50/50. What do you mean by overworked?

krimson_cardnal
07-16-06, 06:56 PM
Well let's just say the topic has been thouroughly examined, that's all.

Good Thread........................

I do think the drop in coolant level you've seen is due to air trapped in the engine. Last season I had the radiator replaced on my 96DeVille by a dealer far from home [$$$$ if I only knew then what I know now]. I added 50/50 for the next few days. In fact I finally filled the reservoir full, not just 2" below the neck, and too my delight, it found its own level, right where the book said it would - excess went out the overflow tube, no big deal. It has been right there ever since, and I still carry some 50/50 in the boot. Force of habit I guess, but Murphy will find me if I dare take it out.

[I probably only needed a side tank - but I didn't know that was an option]

Keep us posted on the coolant level, I'm sure it's right where it needs to be.

codewize
07-17-06, 12:01 PM
Yeah it's overworked alright. I will say that I never expected this thread to live so long. There is some great information here and some very interesting experiences. Mine being one of them, I guess. :)

krimson_cardnal
07-17-06, 01:30 PM
as long as folks comment in i'm guessing information is trading places - sometimes what's apparent to some others are blind to. as i've stated before, i'm at the point where i forgot what i didn't know...

469 views - 52 replies - all within 6 days that ain't shabbie

JimHare
07-18-06, 11:52 AM
Re: Petcock - The service history the dealer gave me when I bought the Eldo in April 2005 didn't have anything about radiator service - just two visits for Crank Pos Sensors.. LOL

Like much of the US, we're in pretty much of a heat wave right now. I had to make a trip across the state to Mays Landing yesterday with the Son to return him to his mom. Air temp readings varied from 97 to 101 degrees. With A/C on most of the way, my coolant ranged from 205 to an absolute high of 224 (while stopped at a light for two cycles because of traffic). Interestingly enough, it seemed that running with out the AC on, the engine wasn't noticeably cooler - perhaps because of the fan operation, it ran the same temp with NO A/C (215 +/-) in normal driving as it did with the A/C on....

Keep Cool, everyone....

GreenMachine
07-18-06, 10:54 PM
strange enought I find when my windows are closed the car runs the coolant temp cooler than when I drive down the road with them open.

I tested it driving down a long road and sure enough it would get hotter when tehy opened, then cool down when I closed them...something to do with airflow I suppose.

codewize
07-19-06, 10:01 AM
So the coolant level seems to be stable now. Trapped air I suppose. However yesterday the temp gauge got almost to the line past center even climbing the smallest incline. Now it was 102 deg out yesterday.

Does anyone have the breakdown as to what temps the tick marks on the gauge are? And when should I worry? I know I've seem my small block Chevy at 260+ on hot days but you can't damage those :)

Ranger
07-19-06, 03:43 PM
So the coolant level seems to be stable now. Trapped air I suppose. However yesterday the temp gauge got almost to the line past center even climbing the smallest incline. Now it was 102 deg out yesterday.

Does anyone have the breakdown as to what temps the tick marks on the gauge are? And when should I worry? I know I've seem my small block Chevy at 260+ on hot days but you can't damage those :)
Maybe this will help.
http://caddyinfo.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=10082

krimson_cardnal
07-19-06, 04:08 PM
today - f.a. temp 88F - i watched mt temp flux between 196F and 221F under the same drive i did last evening w/ f.a. temp 76 - car ran 197F to 208F.

these NorthStar engines have their own idea as to what temp they run at. i can't figure it out, only to the point that i am sure my engine is sound!! - i do not abuse it in any way - and i am trying my damndest NOT to obsess on the temp guage.

why? searching these forums and seeing the discussions on temp i am convinsed that the engine will do what it needs to do.

i think of all the cars i have driven w/ idiot lights in 'em. didn't even think about it. here comes this NorthStar that tells me the degree my engine is running at. in digital. give me a brake....

my 89Brougham didn't do that. who knew what the exact temp was. who needs to, really.

i don't know, it's hot outside, i'm leveling pressure treated wood for my smoker - got 25+ folks coming for beer-pork-swimming-fishing-hangout

set your priorities and enjoy your life. i like the fact that my 96DeVille is one smart cookie and when the time is right and we ever get there - she will let me know there is a problem in a way thet i will understend......

BTW - some where in these hallowed haals of wisdom i read that the NorhStar cooling system runs counter clockwise as opposed to the conventional - standard - cooling system in most every other car?? is this true??? and does it make a difference - possible. it is unique - that's why we love 'em.

GET OUTSIDE ENJOY THE SUMMER let NorthStar do the same - alliswell

codewize
07-19-06, 04:37 PM
I agree. They do have a mind of their own. It seems that the needle never goes above center unless the outside temp is over 90. Then it goes up and down. Surprisingly it will idle in traffic just fine but heats up when driving and hi-way speeds or climbing hills.

Interesting and I too am trying hard not to obsess with the temp gauge.

I think I may invest in a breakout box.

krimson_cardnal
07-19-06, 09:02 PM
??? - ?

[the system would not allow a 3-digit responce so you get 3 ? + 1 for emphasis
[breakout box??]

Ranger
07-19-06, 09:53 PM
BTW - some where in these hallowed haals of wisdom i read that the NorhStar cooling system runs counter clockwise as opposed to the conventional - standard - cooling system in most every other car?? is this true???


Yes.

codewize
07-20-06, 04:02 PM
Breakout box is the electronic thing you connect to the car to gather real time data. Like the computers at the shop but hand held. I guess that's an old school term?


??? - ?

[the system would not allow a 3-digit responce so you get 3 ? + 1 for emphasis
[breakout box??]

OffThaHorseCEO
08-20-06, 08:47 PM
i did this today, i drained everything out and flushed with distilled water, i flushed until the water ran clear, then used the empty gallons to mix the 50/50 mix. the manual said 12.5 qt capacity, which i calculated as a little over 3 gallons, so in 3 gallons i mixed 50/50 dex/water, 50/50 dex/water/supplement, 50/50 dex/water, so i go to put the first gasllon in and it filled it up! so i drive it for a lil bit and i was able to put another half gallon in but i cant get any more in

Ranger
08-20-06, 09:32 PM
That is one reason we say don't flush. You never get all the coolan (or water) out. Now you have much less than a 50/50 mix. Now you'll have to drain some and add 100% Dex, but then comes the question of how much? At this point I'd get a refractometer as you'll probably have to tweak it a few times to get it right.

OffThaHorseCEO
08-20-06, 11:41 PM
well the thing is the DIC still tells me check coolant level

btw i went to smithfield for some late night dinner and did a couple of WOT blasts and ran the air for a lil bit and i was able to get another 1/4 gallon in

Ranger
08-21-06, 10:05 AM
I would suspect a bad coolant level sensor in the tank. I think you will have to R & R the entire tank.

OffThaHorseCEO
08-21-06, 10:15 AM
I would suspect a bad coolant level sensor in the tank. I think you will have to R & R the entire tank.


by "the tank" you mean the one sitting on the wheel well, the one another guy referred to as the "degass bottle"?

i wouldnt doubt the bad sensor thing either, ive randomly gotten those messages before and checked the coolant and it was fine. maybe d/c'ing the battery for enough time to let the system "reset" itself would help?

thanks for the input btw

Ranger
08-21-06, 05:24 PM
Yes, the one on the wheel whell. Surge tank or degass bottle, one in the same. I dooubt pulling battery power would do anything.

codewize
08-21-06, 08:52 PM
From what I've experienced and what I've heard, after that type of flush you had about 6 quarts of pure water in the system. So if you added 50/50 you have almost no coolant in the system but you should have been able to add at least another gallon.

The coolant level might go down after driving. I had to refill after the second day of driving.