: "How to beat rear-wheel drive"



Jesda
07-04-06, 04:33 AM
http://q45.spilky.com/gallery/d/4692-1/0.jpg
A very well written article from David E Davis's "Winding Road" about the future market potential of FWD cars. Did I mention how awesome this magazine is?

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2004ctsv
07-04-06, 09:36 AM
The last few paragraphs sum it up pretty good. But if you want big torque and no torque-steer, rwd.

For traction - 4wd. For performance - rwd. For gramma (blue hair and all) - fwd

AznPrydeRegalRyde
07-05-06, 09:20 AM
A fun fwd car...with its torque steer, front heavy designs. And I just stabbed myself with a noodle...

hardrockcamaro@mac.c
07-06-06, 04:17 AM
Hmm...

He seems a bit stuck on the rwd aesthetics.

I'm a bit torn between both platforms. The problem with FWD (fpr me) is that it can't put the power down. Above 200BHP and you start to see problems, the 300BHP STS has almost no chance. Pulling onto a wet roundabout quickly is a non starter. As for the torque steer, it's not that bad, I don't mind it. However in anything other than dry conditions I'm glad I'm in a FWD car, they are far more sure footed whereas my Camaro tries to kill me if the road is even mildly damp. Considering the avergae driver (even the ones who think they know how to drive) can't actually drive all that well, FWD does make sense. You see kid throwing hot hatches around, (even in the wet) and you think to yourself, if you sell that and buy a RWD sports car you're gonna die...

Caddy Man
07-06-06, 05:29 AM
everytime i click the link it says ''www.q45.org could not be found. Please check the name and try again.''

what gives??

Jesda
07-06-06, 05:42 AM
Server problem. It'll probably fix itself by noon.

RobertCTS
07-06-06, 11:11 AM
Have you noticed that hardly any race cars use FWD? It's stupid to try to steer with the same wheels that have just lost traction. We had it right the first time with RWD. That's also why we are seeing the conversion back to RWD. I've had two FWDs, a Maxima and an Eldorado. Vowed never to buy another.:rant2:

I~LUV~Caddys8792
07-06-06, 11:51 AM
One of the salesmen at my work told me something about RWD I'll never forget.
When was the last time you saw a FWD emergency vehicle? Think about it, Fire trucks, ambulances and most cop cars are RWD.

FWD for the most part is sucky for performance cars, there are a few exceptions to the law though like the Civic Si and GTi. But what about big boats? For example, how about a '77 Eldorado v. a '77 Mark V, does it make a big difference there? I wouldn't think so.

Spyder
07-06-06, 06:49 PM
Hell yes it makes a difference. It's just not Right and Proper. If you don't understand that, then go ahead and buy your wrong-wheel-drive car. No arguments from me.

:/

slk230mb
07-06-06, 06:54 PM
One of the salesmen at my work told me something about RWD I'll never forget.
When was the last time you saw a FWD emergency vehicle? Think about it, Fire trucks, ambulances and most cop cars are RWD.

Every time I see a police car it's a FWD Impala. The highway units are Crown Vics though.

I~LUV~Caddys8792
07-06-06, 07:26 PM
Hell yes it makes a difference. It's just not Right and Proper. If you don't understand that, then go ahead and buy your wrong-wheel-drive car. No arguments from me.

:/


FWD is sure a hell of a lot better up here in the snowbelt, I'm sure you can agree with your STS.

gothicaleigh
07-06-06, 08:34 PM
FWD is sure a hell of a lot better up here in the snowbelt, I'm sure you can agree with your STS.

I actually prefer a well balanced RWD with a decent stability system in the snow. It's more predictible than FWD. Sure, you have to take care when accelerating, but once underway, RWD has better feel and control in my opinion.

I~LUV~Caddys8792
07-06-06, 08:38 PM
Good point. Also, if the car is heavy enough (more than 4000 pounds) with good tires, it'll do great in the snow even without stability control.

N0DIH
07-06-06, 09:27 PM
I have always preferred RWD in the snow. No matter what, I have STEERING and attitude control (both kinds...). In an emergency manuever I can do things that FWD can't even think about.

I have driven in LOTS of snow and ice, for long distances. RWD is still my choice, and 4WD for my wife in the truck. I don't even need to engage 4WD most of the time. 5600 lbs and a locker do wonders for ya!

My Fleetwood is missing the G80 option (posi), but has traction control and it sure was nice last winter. With decent tires (I had some sad ones on for a while) you can go about anywhere. I hope to get my Auburn posi in this summer for next winter.

The only FWD cars I liked in racing were the Dodge Daytonas. they had they setup with uber stiff rear sway bars that would make them oversteer in corners. Then they would go into a turn HOT where the other RWD cars would be slowing and then they could NAIL THE GAS to put it into an understeer condition in the front, and oversteering in the rear, and it would corner like an AWD car, 4 wheel drifting! Dodge didn't race them that long though. Good concept, but very dangerous to be fast. RWD....

I still think ALL NASCARS need to be PROPER driven and still use the basic engine layout that the car has. Meaning, forget the FWD based platforms, make them USE THE 2 DOOR CARS they should be building, and make them V8 RWD. Forget this 4 door Taurus crap that has 2 doors on it for NASCAR and Dodge, same thing. Now Fricking Toyota in NASCAR????? You have got to be kidding!!!!



I actually prefer a well balanced RWD with a decent stability system in the snow. It's more predictible than FWD. Sure, you have to take care when accelerating, but once underway, RWD has better feel and control in my opinion.

90Brougham350
07-06-06, 11:04 PM
Break it down to the simplest possible solution. Is it easier to push or pull? Ever see a FWD funny-car?

RobertCTS
07-07-06, 05:25 AM
Break it down to the simplest possible solution. Is it easier to push or pull? Ever see a FWD funny-car?

Pushing a rope is tough but pulling it is a breeze!! J/K:)

codewize
07-07-06, 10:51 AM
I agree with this. RWD is far more predictable that FWD in the snow. It's not better traction but it is better control factor.


I actually prefer a well balanced RWD with a decent stability system in the snow. It's more predictible than FWD. Sure, you have to take care when accelerating, but once underway, RWD has better feel and control in my opinion.

Spyder
07-07-06, 12:24 PM
It's easy to push a rope...it just won't go very far!

I agree with the control of rear wheel drive...Kinda like when you need to turn fast on a quad, gun it and go, that rear end will whip right around...there's been a few times I've been glad I had plenty of power to break the rear wheels loose in my old Plymouth and my old Dodge Truck. Needing to turn quick to get the hell out of the way can be exciting, and much easier with rear wheel drive.

N0DIH
07-07-06, 12:33 PM
Often people who try to compare them don't have things similar to compare.

A FWD car in slick conditions will exhibit less pendulum swinging when going too fast on a slick road, so there is some stability there that is improved.

A RWD can have the back end pass you in the above situtation, more so with posi. BUT, the front wheeler in a turn will push right on through it unless slowed to much slower than the RWD car, same conditions, same weight cars, same power.

And honestly, if you have a RWD car with the same power and weight as a front wheeler, likely it won't have enough power to pendulum like a high power RWD.

With my 94 FWB LT1 and 3.42's I find the car to be fantastically more stable than my 91 SDV with 4.9L and FWD. The power on the front wheels like that was too much to easily over power the traction in the snow. My LT1 has similar power to weight ratio, and it much much easier to work with.

I~LUV~Caddys8792
07-07-06, 01:22 PM
With my 94 FWB LT1 and 3.42's I find the car to be fantastically more stable than my 91 SDV with 4.9L and FWD. The power on the front wheels like that was too much to easily over power the traction in the snow. My LT1 has similar power to weight ratio, and it much much easier to work with.

Good point. With the 4.9L V8, it's quite easy to spin the front tire(s) in snow, but that was with poor tires. I got new ones on in April, so I don't know how good they are in the snow. But I remember in my Roadmaster, with the LT1 and the 2.93:1 rear end with posi, in an inch of snow, it was unstoppable. I actually felt more safe in that car than the Cadillac.

N0DIH
07-07-06, 01:31 PM
My #1 best CAR in the snow was my 2.73 geared 1976 Delta 88 Royale with an open rear and 350 Olds Rocket. 4860 lbs of beast. I only got stuck 1 time. High centered on 6 feet of snow the plows left in my driveway. I LOOKED for snow to plow through, this car was nearly unstoppable! It took FEET of snow to stop me!!!!

nickc50310
07-07-06, 02:00 PM
My #1 best CAR in the snow was my 2.73 geared 1976 Delta 88 Royale with an open rear and 350 Olds Rocket. 4860 lbs of beast. I only got stuck 1 time. High centered on 6 feet of snow the plows left in my driveway. I LOOKED for snow to plow through, this car was nearly unstoppable! It took FEET of snow to stop me!!!!

AHAHAHAH Im right there with ya bro! My first car was a 1973 Delta 88 Convertable! My beast had a 455. I NEVER got stuck or had any major mishaps during the winter in that boat! The only problem I remember having was one time the window got stuck down in a blizzard. I still drove the whole night! Thing was a sweet ride too. It is now being restored.

For a short time I had a 93 Nissan Sentra. It was a manual and got around pretty well in the snow but the Delta was better. The car weighed so much that it always had good traction.

After I retired the Delta in 01 I got a 97 Grand Cherokee. I put a 2" budget boast and 30" BFG AT KOs with Monroe reflex shocks on it. That thing was unstoppable. I drove through some mud-holes that would boggle your mind. And snow- forget about it. That thing would NEVER get stuck. The only problem was when youre in a situation where you dont want 4wd on but there is still ice around. On a lightly coated freeway or random ice/snow patches that thing was down right scary!

Now I have the CTS. This is by far my favorite car for winter travel. The Stabilitrack saved my ass more times than I can count (when I had my 03). I travel alot since my girl lives about 2 hours away so there was a couple times on the freeway in snow/ice that were pretty hairy. But, no worries the stabilitrack worked great!

Bottom line is this (my opinion)- RWD is the ideal platform. You can get plenty of power with no torque steer. You dont feel like your out of control when you floor it. With the proper equipment, it can operate better (and safer) than some 4wd vehicles.

Spyder
07-07-06, 02:44 PM
My 'ol '78 Olds Delta 88 had the Diesel. Awesome car! I LOVED it. For the three weeks that it ran before the tranny went out and I blew a piston through the block at about seven grand.

That is all.

RobertCTS
07-07-06, 02:52 PM
My 'ol '78 Olds Delta 88 had the Diesel. Awesome car! I LOVED it. For the three weeks that it ran before the tranny went out and I blew a piston through the block at about seven grand.

That is all.

You had the extended warranty to cover it..right?:D

I~LUV~Caddys8792
07-07-06, 03:57 PM
My 'ol '78 Olds Delta 88 had the Diesel. Awesome car! I LOVED it. For the three weeks that it ran before the tranny went out and I blew a piston through the block at about seven grand.

That is all.

How did you get a diesel 350 to spin that fast?!



Side note, with the Roadmaster, I have nearly got into some pretty severe accidents in the rain with that much power. Getting both tires to spin was too easy, but if you can control it, then it's pretty much the best thing in rain and snow.

Spyder
07-08-06, 03:19 AM
Nah, bought the thing for four hundred bucks to drive while I put a new motor in my STS, which had spun a main. The tranny was slipping so bad that we were moving at about three miles an hour with my foot to the floor...had done some linkage mechanical macguyvering so we could get a little more out of it...one of the most impressive sounds I've ever heard in my life...we left it there, in the gas station parking lot. It had never been transferred into my name so we just walked home, about a half a mile. :) Woops...probably not the nicest thing to do, but it stayed there for about two months until they painted the parking lot, then they towed it.

Spock
07-08-06, 04:17 AM
Every time I see a police car it's a FWD Impala. The highway units are Crown Vics though.

The police tenderly call those FWD Impalas, "Wimpy Impys". They would hands down take a Caprice anyday, and a good portion would take it over the Crown Vic as well.
GM's big mistake was cancelling the poor B body. It would certainly be my car of choice were it still around.


To my understanding, a big reason that FWD was promoted was the low cost of production since they could eliminate the driveshaft and differential, reducing parts and weight (therefore unitbody designs), savings that is not transferred to the consumer. A great bumper sticker once said, "My crumple zone is your car!"

Patrick7997
07-08-06, 10:54 AM
Good article, Jesda.... very interesting. The Vigor was a nice car....my Dad test drove one, but was put off by the goofy 5 cylinder motor....

NODIH, I don't know how you do it....

Me and my dad drove big Buicks years ago, and I got tired of getting stuck..... Tires? Please. I had GoodYear Eagle GT+4's on my Trans Am when I was BEACHED in a level parking lot with 1" of snow on it. NO forward motion whatsoever....

I won't bore you with stories of how I got stuck over & over with RWD, and how my Grandpa would bring out his 73 Eldorado (FWD), drive past 300 stuck cars, and pick me up.... I'll spare you the details of all the times my 92 Eldorado was the only car to be able to leave the bar parking lot (besides the 4X4'x, of course).....

I'll leave you with this: There's 2 kinds of vehicles to have in the snow:
#1. 4x4 truck
#2. Front wheel drive car

Just my humble opinion..... I personally got tired of being stuck many years ago, and I'm too old to freeze my ass off waiting for help.....

RobertCTS
07-08-06, 11:33 AM
Good article, Jesda.... very interesting. The Vigor was a nice car....my Dad test drove one, but was put off by the goofy 5 cylinder motor....

NODIH, I don't know how you do it....

Me and my dad drove big Buicks years ago, and I got tired of getting stuck..... Tires? Please. I had GoodYear Eagle GT+4's on my Trans Am when I was BEACHED in a level parking lot with 1" of snow on it. NO forward motion whatsoever....

I won't bore you with stories of how I got stuck over & over with RWD, and how my Grandpa would bring out his 73 Eldorado (FWD), drive past 300 stuck cars, and pick me up.... I'll spare you the details of all the times my 92 Eldorado was the only car to be able to leave the bar parking lot (besides the 4X4'x, of course).....

I'll leave you with this: There's 2 kinds of vehicles to have in the snow:
#1. 4x4 truck
#2. Front wheel drive car

Just my humble opinion..... I personally got tired of being stuck many years ago, and I'm too old to freeze my ass off waiting for help.....

Golly Patrick, sounds like your Dad and you never learned the art od driving in the snow. J/K.
I had an Eldorado and a Maxima. They sucked in the snow. Limited slip differential and snow tires on all 4 corners help.