Has anyone done this themselves? If so how difficult is it.

Thanks for your assistance

Replacing the rotors is easy. Figure two hours alone- remove wheel, remove caliper bolts, take out the set screw on the rotor and put on the new one. Reverse the process and repeat 3 more times.

Thanks TO, are there any specific tools needed besides jack, lug nuts, and the normal tools?

Thanks TO, are there any specific tools needed besides jack, lug nuts, and the normal tools?

Floor Jack, jack stands, metric socket set, torque wrench should do it. Might as well paint your calipers while your at it.

http://usera.imagecave.com/BobsWork/wheel-brembo.jpg

Thanks RCTS. I plan on painting as soon as I get the rims and black drilled/slotted rotors. Looks as though ebay has some good prices for them.

I will soon be moving up in the mod world. The Caddy dealer has offered me 18" 12 spokes and tires off a brand new CTS. The new buyer doesn't want them, the dealer is going to sell them to me very, very cheap. How can I resist?

Bob, kinda paint did you use to paint the calipers?

Bob, kinda paint did you use to paint the calipers?

I'm pretty sure it's this: http://wheelskin.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Category_Code=BRAKE+CALIPER+PAINT

I'm going this route once I get going to paint mine!!! :thumbsup:

Bob, kinda paint did you use to paint the calipers?

I use the very best. It a two part epoxy paint. It comes with a surface cleaner/prep. It's called G2. It doesn't fade chip or peel. The aeosol stuff sucks IMO. It's kinda expensive.

http://usera.imagecave.com/BobsWork/cal_paint.jpg

An important not about drilled/slotted rotors: you are probably going to have a hard time finding a shop to have the rotors turned. This is less of a concern if you are not going to have the car for more than a few years, but if it's a keeper you need to think about this. I did not know this on my last car and it came as an unwelcome shock.

Drilled and slotted rotors offer better braking performance, there is no doubt. The primary advantage to the drilling is reduced weight and the slotting, heat dissipation by increasing surface area. Weight and heat dissipation are less of a concern in normal daily driving than on the track (unless you are driving like a complete maniac). Yes, having slotted and drilled rotors looks cooler, because really, it is. Except when the rotors eventually warp and they will because they are brake rotors and that is what brake rotors do, you cannot have them turned on a lathe as you would normal rotors. No, most shops refuse to endanger their equipment by turning slotted or drilled rotors, so then you have to buy an entirely new set of rotors all around.

Replacing the brake pads with a more agressive compound is easy. Opting for a bigger brake kit is a bit more of an investment, with appreciable gains. Buying slotted and/or cross drilled rotors, unless you have a shop willing to turn them, increases your long term maintenance costs significantly.

I'm not saying "Don't do it," I am just making you aware of the major drawback. As I said before, I had cross drilled and slotted rotors on my previous daily driver. Did it make me happy? Absolutely! Was there appreciable difference in traffic? Not really. Did they save my life? I'm not sure, maybe. Was it worth the extra cost of a new set of rotors once I wore the cool cross drilled and slotted set out? I'm going to have to say, "No."

I am a huge proponent of increasing braking capacity, that's one thing you can never have enough of, but cross drilled and/or slotter rotors is not the way to go if you want to improve things long term. Get a brake kit with a bigger footprint and some more agressive pads. That combination with a decent tire will make you happy and save in the long run.

An important not about drilled/slotted rotors: you are probably going to have a hard time finding a shop to have the rotors turned. This is less of a concern if you are not going to have the car for more than a few years, but if it's a keeper you need to think about this. I did not know this on my last car and it came as an unwelcome shock.

Drilled and slotted rotors offer better braking performance, there is no doubt. The primary advantage to the drilling is reduced weight and the slotting, heat dissipation by increasing surface area. Weight and heat dissipation are less of a concern in normal daily driving than on the track (unless you are driving like a complete maniac). Yes, having slotted and drilled rotors looks cooler, because really, it is. Except when the rotors eventually warp and they will because they are brake rotors and that is what brake rotors do, you cannot have them turned on a lathe as you would normal rotors. No, most shops refuse to endanger their equipment by turning slotted or drilled rotors, so then you have to buy an entirely new set of rotors all around.

Replacing the brake pads with a more agressive compound is easy. Opting for a bigger brake kit is a bit more of an investment, with appreciable gains. Buying slotted and/or cross drilled rotors, unless you have a shop willing to turn them, increases your long term maintenance costs significantly.

I'm not saying "Don't do it," I am just making you aware of the major drawback. As I said before, I had cross drilled and slotted rotors on my previous daily driver. Did it make me happy? Absolutely! Was there appreciable difference in traffic? Not really. Did they save my life? I'm not sure, maybe. Was it worth the extra cost of a new set of rotors once I wore the cool cross drilled and slotted set out? I'm going to have to say, "No."

I am a huge proponent of increasing braking capacity, that's one thing you can never have enough of, but cross drilled and/or slotter rotors is not the way to go if you want to improve things long term. Get a brake kit with a bigger footprint and some more agressive pads. That combination with a decent tire will make you happy and save in the long run.

Mike,
I really didn't cross drill/slot my rotors for increased braking power. I bought them for the looks with my aftermarket wheels. That's why I went with the CMS Brembo OEM Rotors. I would love to have the CMS Big Brakes because of the looks but I had other places I wanted to spend my money on the car. I don't think I will ever turn down these rotors. I would replace them, probably with Pete's bigger brakes. Actually I think a lot of owners buy these modified brakes for the looks. What you have to be careful of is the cheap Chinese rip offs that you see on Ebay. They aren't safe.

Can you substantiate this please

Example: Ebay-set of 4 for $139. Another for $159. Even John Arbuckle knew you get what you pay for.

I've the very best rotors explode on NASCAR race cars. So price is not always a perfect marker but it certainly increases your chances.

robert, if you buy the CMS big brake kit i may be interested in your X-drilled, slotted rotors...

Mike, you mentioned the replacement of the rotors because no one turns them down...how long are you talking about? if you buy a set of new cross rotors and drive moderate with the occasional aggression, how long will they last? 2 years? i have zero timeframe, and zero idea. enlighten me

robert, if you buy the CMS big brake kit i may be interested in your X-drilled, slotted rotors...

Mike, you mentioned the replacement of the rotors because no one turns them down...how long are you talking about? if you buy a set of new cross rotors and drive moderate with the occasional aggression, how long will they last? 2 years? i have zero timeframe, and zero idea. enlighten me

All of CME rotors are cryo treated for added hardness. Mine show absolutely no wear after a year. I need to check my ceramic pads sometime.

I'll keep you in mind 3x0.:)

Mike, you mentioned the replacement of the rotors because no one turns them down...how long are you talking about? if you buy a set of new cross rotors and drive moderate with the occasional aggression, how long will they last? 2 years? i have zero timeframe, and zero idea. enlighten me

I think I had to replace the rotors when they started warping after about 30,000 miles. That was 2-2 1/2 years of daily driving, sometimes aggressively. And, different rotors are going to wear differently because of the materials in the construction and suspension workings, so your milage may vary.

As Bob pointed out, some people are more interested in appearance, for which you can't beat cross drilled and slotted rotors. Cross drilled and slotted rotors are a performance product, and like most performance oriented products, you are going to pay more to have them. There's nothing wrong with that and anyone who is willing to pay the premium, go for it!

Can you substantiate this please

Actually a vast qty of the rotors on the market today come from China. Ths includes most of the 'name brand' boxed replacements. One major aftermarket builder now our sources all of their rotors there as well. Another company purchases from Mexico, and another from Germany. And lastly a lot of them come from the same American supplier I use.

OEM suppliers are also global. Just because a car is made by an American mfg that means nothing. Granted I don't know the GM line as well as the Ford line but Ford outsourses rotors from Mexico and Canada at the least.

There no way you'll look at a rotor and know its country of origin. Rest assured that most on ebay certainly do come from China. So too do the vast majority of the zoomy looking ones found on many 'reputable' suppliers web pages, catalogs etc. etc. The ones I'd be leary of are those that claim to be Brembos. Brembo OEM make stock rotors for many cars however there were reported to be some brembo BOXES floating about some years ago with anything but inside.

In the end country of origin today has little guarantee of good or bad product.

I know that the CMS rotors are great, but would these be a good choice as well "Bendix Cross Drilled Slotted Brake Rotors"?

http://www.wholesaledirectparts.com/browser.asp?ItemCodeId=1042715151&showcase=yes&Start=0&EDI=2-12-56-106-235-56-25-130-250-26-106-54-147-164-120-253-36

I believe, but I'm not 100% sure, but Bendix is the brake pads I have on my car, so for the price would these be a good replacement for the OEM rotors???

Also, the place I got my brakes done at, they recommended I get some drilled/slotted ones and would seem they would do the maintnance on them... I hope....

Amen to that! Thank you for the facts. So many people just spew information without any facts!

You got that right Stealth!!:D Are we sure Todd gave us the FACTS?:hmm:

Todd, when I say Chinese rotors on Ebay I'm speaking of the $139-$179 sets.
Pete has metioned them several times and you two think very much alike. I bet my CMS rotors are Brembos. And yes I've seen the rip-off Brembo boxes. When I confronted these guys they wouldn't reply.

As an example Robert, I purchase a particular rotor from Autospecialty. It comes in its delivered, imported box clearly marked China. This rotor is sold by many companies with all the bling added from slots, to holes to zinc plated for anywhre from $69-99ea depending upon what the market will bear I guess. My cost; $14 and change. And I'm not even a 'big playa' in buying them.

Regardless of country of origin there's still no reason to feel one is poor or superior to the other. The vast majority of 'issues' on vehicles are far more related to pad selection and poor driving habits.

But thanks for asking. I trust your skepticisim is equally applied.

As an example Robert, I purchase a particular rotor from Autospecialty. It comes in its delivered, imported box clearly marked China. This rotor is sold by many companies with all the bling added from slots, to holes to zinc plated for anywhre from $69-99ea depending upon what the market will bear I guess. My cost; $14 and change. And I'm not even a 'big playa' in buying them.

Regardless of country of origin there's still no reason to feel one is poor or superior to the other. The vast majority of 'issues' on vehicles are far more related to pad selection and poor driving habits.

But thanks for asking. I trust your skepticisim is equally applied.

Todd,
I totally agree the country of origin has little to do with quality. But China is infamous for cheap knock off products. Many of those rotors are cheap gravity dropped sand mould rotors and aren't worth the time of day. I would recommend being careful on Ebay rotor packages. I've never seen any of the rotors being cyro treated for additional strength either. But I think there is a relationship of price to quality.

Todd
Is it true that even Major companies such as brembo, stop tech etc. have found that cyro treating doesnt necassarily add any benefit?

FYI
http://www.policerotors.com/home_page.htm

More:
Using Deep Cryogenic Tempering On Your Racing Parts Means: longer lasting engines, transmissions, clutches, & brake rotors … up to three times longer.

Increased Dimensional Stability
Increased Horsepower
Increased Torque
Quicker Shifting
Increased Fatigue Resistance
Reduced Heat
Reduced Friction
Reduced Blow By
Reduced Breakage
Reduced Residual Stress

http://hekimianracing.com/cryoracer.html

http://www.onecryo.com/onecryo/motorsport-wcsdec97.htm

Todd
Is it true that even Major companies such as brembo, stop tech etc. have found that cyro treating doesnt necassarily add any benefit?


I can't speak for the others but in 13 years of business I've yet to verify any true tangable relationships between this treatment and the claims that are made. I'm aware of some who swear by it and others who openly debunk it. For me, I'll pass. If some choose to do so I certainly have no problem with it.

What is often not mentioned in many, many,of the cases where one makes claims about the process are two things;

1. The treatment is done on a different system than stock. By adding a new brake system to a car that goes from say 10" rotors and floating calipers to one of 13" and fixed calipers simply adding the rotor effectiveness and swept area to the equation alone totally alters the systems duty cycle. Of cuorse it's better. Why?

2. Pads and hoses. No same size rotor change of any type, treatment or country of origin will make a car brake better. One might argue a slight increase in pad wiping with slots- ok. But when better pads and braided hoses are brought into the mix the pedal feel goes up and the pad bite does as well. I"ve often said that in some cases where replacements are done the old parts are so badly worn out that a set of pie pans would prove better than what was taken off!

Point being that seldom does a buyer only make the one change necessary to fully evaluate the rotor change and be able to say with certainty that this process made an improvement. I don't know of the quoted study above but if it worked for them that's great. For the enthusiast the only way youi'll ever really know is to buy a factory replacement set of rotors and pads. Then have the rotors treated and installed with the new pads. Same rotor manufacture, same pad compound. Then get back with the results in 30k.

Robert:

Cryogenic "treatment" is just that; it is a molecular treatment that is applied to certain ferrous substrates that changes the molecular structure of alignment of the ferrous properties that make up the physical and tensile strength of the cast iron, aluminum alloy, steel alloy, nickel etc.

It is not a coating like ceramic, zinc or chrome. It is also not a plating.

It is a chemical process where liquid nitrogen under pressure enters a pressure vessel; like a boiler and the liquid nitrogen is converted to a gas. Once liquid nitrogen is in it's gaseous state; NO2 then changes the molecular structure or alignment of the fissures and veins found in metal substrates by realigning the molecular fissures and veins found in metal substrates whether they are gravity cast, spun cast, spun forged or pressed forged.

There are basically 2 forms of cryogenic treatment. The quick conveyor belt method often used in food processing. The item is "deep frozen" to minus 120 degrees and there is absolutely no NO2 used in this process. It is nothing more than a deep freezer and operates under the same process as a "heat pump" in it's cooling cycle and uses refrigerant rather than NO2.

The second method is "Deep Cryogenic Freezing" where the item is placed in a pressure vessel that is sealed like a submarine tank. Refrigerant is pumped in to reduce the internal temperature of the tank to minus 120 degrees. Once temperature is maintained at that level; liquid nitrogen or NO2 is then pumped into the submarine or pressure vessel in a liquid state and then is converted to a gaseous state and the temperature is reduced to minus 320 degrees. At this level of minus 320 degrees; there is a scientific measurable change in the alignment and tensile strength of the metal substrate before deep cryogenic treatment and after treatment.

Deep cryogenic treatment will increase the useful life expectancy of that "metal product" anywhere from 2 to 7 times it's non-treated strength.

For example; deep cryogenic treatment of a piece of pot metal may increase it's tensile strength by only 2 times. So in this case; it is not worth the cost of cryo treating a 20 pound piece of $20 pot metal at a cryo cost of $140 which is $7.00 a pound. Throw the $20 rotor or golf club away and buy another one for $20.....common sense.

Buy a $350 forged alloy item that weighs 20 pounds and spend the same $140 for the cryo treatment and the better grade forged alloy items tensile strength is increased from 5 to 7 times. In this scenario; you paid $350 for a rotor or golf club and then $140 to cryo treat it and your total investment is $490 and the product lasts 5 times its expected life. Untreated and having to replace it "annually"; your total out of pocket costs would have been $2460 versus $490.

So in scenario A: you need to understand that cryogenic treatment doesn't turn coal into diamonds. If you start off with an inferior metal substrate and cryogenically treat it; all you end up with is a crogenically treated inferior substrate with limited extended life expenctancy; perhaps 2 times.

If you cryogenically treat a quality piece of ferrous substrate such as a forged rotating assembly, pistons, or engine block; you'll increase the life expectancy to as much as 7 times it's expected useful wear life.

There will always be opinions or arguments on any topic whether it be religion, politics and even brake rotors; so it's safe to assume that cryogenic treatment is fair ground for individual opinion or belief as well.

But the bottom line is that cryogenic treatment is in fact a physics based scientific process that is measurable by the laws of physics and chemistry; just as your own individual DNA is.

Whether you view it as "vodoo magic" or "measurable chemical process" is ultimately up to the buyer. But as many people have often said before; in the end you really only get what you pay for and that's usually nothing more or nothing less.

I guess if I was in the light bulb business and I could sell you 100 watt light bulbs at $1.00 each knowing that I would be selling you 100 watt $1.00 light bulbs every year; I would be stocking and selling the $1.00 light bulbs. Over 7 years; my gross sales are $7.00 less my cost of goods sold.

And on the contrary; if I was able to sell you a 100 watt light bulb for $2.00 and then not see you again for 7 years; as a vendor I would would want nothing to do with those $2.00 7 year 100 watt light bulbs, as my gross sales are only $2.00 over that same 7 year period.

Bob; there was a time that when you bought a new car; any car for that matter; two years into the deal you were replacing the factory OEM exhuast system of muffler. It made no difference whether it was a Cadillac of Ford LTD.

Now; you spend $1000 for a quality Corsa or Borla exhaust system and it lasts the lifetime of the car.

I'm not quite sure how long the average consumer holds onto there new car, but certainly every new car that is sold requires that the brake rotors be replaced at least once during 5 years of ownership. That alone tells you that the rotors are a wear item and most are economy rotors and dealerships make there money in the service depatment. So if your going to replace them; why would you want to repeat the same mistake knowing in advance that at 30k miles......it's NEW ROTOR TIME!

I would expect that if I am going to replace those worn items with a replacement item; I would expect that replacement item to last me the entire ownership of the vehicle. So sometimes it's better to spend a little more than you expected on a particular item rather than less than you should have to only repeat the same mistake.

But life is about choices and thank God we don't all think the same way; otherwise there would be no one to make the french fries at McDonalds. Every application is different and everyone's opinion has merit if you present your data with the fact that it is "your opinion".

I'm pretty sure that NASA outsources engineering work to probably the brighest engineers in the world. And all it took was for some $2.00 adhesive to fail and a piece of ceramic tile to break loose from the Space Shuttle and the end result was the Space Shuttle and 7 astronauts were scattered to ashes over 5 states. So it goes to show that even the brightest and best still make mistakes.

The average vehicle trade in cycle in america is 33 months, therefore 80% of the owners will never have to replace thier rotors.......................... Regardless if they are treated or not.

That represent only the average useage DS. Many of us are investing a great deal of $$ and will be keeping our CTSs longer. That was my thinking going into the$e mods.

Good explanation on the cryo treatment Pietro.

I know that the CMS rotors are great, but would these be a good choice as well "Bendix Cross Drilled Slotted Brake Rotors"?

http://www.wholesaledirectparts.com/browser.asp?ItemCodeId=1042715151&showcase=yes&Start=0&EDI=2-12-56-106-235-56-25-130-250-26-106-54-147-164-120-253-36

I believe, but I'm not 100% sure, but Bendix is the brake pads I have on my car, so for the price would these be a good replacement for the OEM rotors???

Also, the place I got my brakes done at, they recommended I get some drilled/slotted ones and would seem they would do the maintnance on them... I hope....

Bendix builds mill-drilled rotors, meaning that the rotors aren't drilled after the fact. The drills and slots are built into the casting of the brake rotor, that give you improved rotor strengh and eliminates cracking issues associated with drilled rotors.

For the record also the main purpose of slotting or drilling a rotor is for dissapation of heat and gas trapped between the pad and rotor. Rotors because slotted and drilled in the early 60s (possibly earlier) for that exact reason, since it has trickled to many modern passenger cars.

Bendix is well on top of their game, and makes top quality product, so if anyone really wants a strong, quality cross drilled and slotted rotor Bendix is the company to go with. Also besides just providing brake parts Bendix has its only facilities where they repair everyday cars to ensure their parts are working properly.

Bendix builds mill-drilled rotors, meaning that the rotors aren't drilled after the fact. The drills and slots are built into the casting of the brake rotor, that give you improved rotor strengh and eliminates cracking issues associated with drilled rotors.

For the record also the main purpose of slotting or drilling a rotor is for dissapation of heat and gas trapped between the pad and rotor. Rotors because slotted and drilled in the early 60s (possibly earlier) for that exact reason, since it has trickled to many modern passenger cars.

Bendix is well on top of their game, and makes top quality product, so if anyone really wants a strong, quality cross drilled and slotted rotor Bendix is the company to go with. Also besides just providing brake parts Bendix has its only facilities where they repair everyday cars to ensure their parts are working properly.

Thanks for the info.... so from my link are those a good choice for me?
I know they are only $113 for the front, and some say that they might not be good because they are cheeper in price.....:hmm:

And should I be looking at the sport suspension ones or regular rotors?

The drills and slots are built into the casting of the brake rotor, that give you improved rotor strengh and eliminates cracking issues associated with drilled rotors.



Currently there are no known rotor castings with holes cast into them- anywhere.

I've researched this for over three years and spoken to industry workers from Europe even. Nobody has been able to ever provide any proof of a casting with holes.

To the extent that I continue to post a $250 reward to anyone who can provide proof of their existance. Looks like it's your turn to try to take my money. Bring the proof my friend!

those bendix rotors look really nice...250 for a set is great too, especially if you're only thinking of having the car for maybe 3 years. i imagine hawk ceramics would be acceptible on these, no?

those bendix rotors look really nice...250 for a set is great too, especially if you're only thinking of having the car for maybe 3 years. i imagine hawk ceramics would be acceptible on these, no?

No reason the Ceramics wouldn't work. Are the rotors also slotted for gas release? Gotta a pic?

ceramic pads would work fine, the hawks are very grippy and you will notice that they wont work very well till they get warmed up, then they are very good. gas slotted or drilled? I prefer the gas slotted because it doesnt compromise the structural integrity of the rotor plane (umm flat part of rotor) the way drilling does. the gas slot has a lot of affects.
primary: it allows outgasing under heavy loads (you press the brake down hard, it heats up the pad, the pad material poofs into a gas an pushes the pad away from the rotor surface hurting your braking ability, he slots allow this gas to escape)
the slots are also good chanels for water from rain to go when you brake.

ceramic pads would work fine, the hawks are very grippy and you will notice that they wont work very well till they get warmed up, then they are very good. gas slotted or drilled? I prefer the gas slotted because it doesnt compromise the structural integrity of the rotor plane (umm flat part of rotor) the way drilling does. the gas slot has a lot of affects.
primary: it allows outgasing under heavy loads (you press the brake down hard, it heats up the pad, the pad material poofs into a gas an pushes the pad away from the rotor surface hurting your braking ability, he slots allow this gas to escape)
the slots are also good chanels for water from rain to go when you brake.

Good points Kael. You need to remember those holes do compromise the integrity of the rotor. That's why the hardening processes are so important.

wow...so should i buy the cheap rotors on ebay or not??

wow...so should i buy the cheap rotors on ebay or not??

Your call do your homework.

Currently there are no known rotor castings with holes cast into them- anywhere.

I've researched this for over three years and spoken to industry workers from Europe even. Nobody has been able to ever provide any proof of a casting with holes.

To the extent that I continue to post a $250 reward to anyone who can provide proof of their existance. Looks like it's your turn to try to take my money. Bring the proof my friend!

dude!!

porsche 930 (911 turbo) had rotors with cast in holes. yeah they were expensive as hell but they exist/existed, i think those were the ceramic ones.

now they have Porsche Ceramic Composite Brake (PCCB), those are weird and black and glow and those have cast in holes as well. (it is confirmed they are cast in even though some sources say "drill-hole pattern" the term is just descriptive for the holes.

do I get the 250?
cause, that would be cool.

dude!!

porsche 930 (911 turbo) had rotors with cast in holes. yeah they were expensive as hell but they exist/existed, i think those were the ceramic ones.

now they have Porsche Ceramic Composite Brake (PCCB), those are weird and black and glow and those have cast in holes as well. (it is confirmed they are cast in even though some sources say "drill-hole pattern" the term is just descriptive for the holes.

do I get the 250?
cause, that would be cool.

Looked like a fair wagger to me Kael. PM him your mailing address.:bouncy:

http://www.rahq.com/acatalog/Online_Catalog_Brakes_6.html more stuff

well I know porsche used to use them but switched back to solid do to stress cracks, the pccb stuff is neat but i have seen that crumble before too.

I am not doing it to be a doink.. just saying i knew of some comapny that did it, it was prosche, the cermaic with cast in holes rotors where 15k or something totally ridiculous.

and he kind of has to accept.
I am sure as a brake guy he can make some calls and confirm that porsche used them

then.. we'll see :)

Thanks for the info.... so from my link are those a good choice for me?
I know they are only $113 for the front, and some say that they might not be good because they are cheeper in price.....:hmm:

And should I be looking at the sport suspension ones or regular rotors?

Thats up to you, the Street HP Rotors are great quality rotors, on a everyday car just like 20" wheels its mostly a cosmetic upgrade, but there will be improved brake life.

those bendix rotors look really nice...250 for a set is great too, especially if you're only thinking of having the car for maybe 3 years. i imagine hawk ceramics would be acceptible on these, no?

Absolutely acceptable.

No reason the Ceramics wouldn't work. Are the rotors also slotted for gas release? Gotta a pic?

http://www.bendixbrakes.com/downloads/052005/StreetHP_rotor_SellShee.pdf

Theres the PDF.

dude!!

porsche 930 (911 turbo) had rotors with cast in holes. yeah they were expensive as hell but they exist/existed, i think those were the ceramic ones.

now they have Porsche Ceramic Composite Brake (PCCB), those are weird and black and glow and those have cast in holes as well. (it is confirmed they are cast in even though some sources say "drill-hole pattern" the term is just descriptive for the holes.

do I get the 250?
cause, that would be cool.

Back it up with something other than a post on a forum and it's all yours. I'm 100% willing to pay this with PROOF postitive. That means at the very least data from Porsche directly that they were produced this way, pics that show the molds to produce them, pics of casting plugs, or any verifiable source who can produce drawings or casting specs to show it.

I still have $250 to say that you cannot. In fact I'll bump it to $300 to show good faith.

'Cording to my industry sources you still can't.

*the only limit on this is that it be a production based part and not dedicated to 'one off' parts used one time on a 917 for example. That simply because the internet story for years is not about dedicated racing applications but stated matter of fact' that "Porsche rotors have the holes cast..." blah, blah, blah. I say: BS. As for ceramic parts, that's not a cast iron rotor. But again if you can even prove that I'll pay it and continue the quest on the iron parts.

Some say I'm obsessed with this. Only because for years I've grown tired of reading it (and in fact quoted it out of foolishness years ago) with absolutely ZERO data to back it up. I've often said that if it were true and I was Porsche or any other mfg you can bet YOU'D KNOW THIS IS HOW WE MAKE THEM. (and FWIW the latest P data specs "drilled" rotors in their literature....

Want the money? Bring it on my friend! I'm all ears.:thumbsup:
I wil make you an internet hero as being the ONE person who has solved this mystery!

well I know porsche used to use them but switched back to solid do to stress cracks, the pccb stuff is neat but i have seen that crumble before too.

:)

This statement is odd. I 'think' you mean they used to offer rotors with holes in them but went to blanks. Solid rotors are rotors with no air gap. That we can agree they did not use. Even ceramics I would be willing to wager are nothing more than cast parts with holes drilled.

Here's a bit of a tip on all of this; you can't begin to guess what the mold to produce this would look like. In discussions with a European vendor we finally got mold pics of the plugs and the walls. You have a mold for the casting and walls to produce the outer sides. Fill the void and you have a rotor. Bust out the plug and the sand falls. Casting walls wiould be very, very complex parts.

Keep the discussion up and I'll send you some more info from my end. I'm not saying it cannot be done, I'm simply saying it is not being done and I doubt it has ever been done on any production vehicle.

Your call do your homework.

I was trying to by reading all this mumbo jumbo in the thread. Sometimes all it does is confuse me more than I already am

alright. I know they were out there. hmm you know cooltech used to make them out of mmc, but then cooltech was bought out by AEM.
visual proof of its exsitence
http://www.sportcompactcarweb.com/projectcars/9904_mazda_rx_7_part_3/photo_01.html

and a reputable magazine source.

This statement is odd. I 'think' you mean they used to offer rotors with holes in them but went to blanks. Solid rotors are rotors with no air gap. That we can agree they did not use. Even ceramics I would be willing to wager are nothing more than cast parts with holes drilled.
.

sorry, I was getting tired
I meant they used to have the cross drilled, they cracked too, they switched back blanks or a "solid" surface rotor.

I still have $250 to say that you cannot. In fact I'll bump it to $300 to show good faith.
Well, that does it! I'm heading out to the garage tonight to manufacture the first set made of Play-Doh. I mean 300 bucks is 300 bucks. Kael, you want to join me? I'll split the payout 50/50 when Todd pays up.

:duck: :spin:

An important not about drilled/slotted rotors: you are probably going to have a hard time finding a shop to have the rotors turned. This is less of a concern if you are not going to have the car for more than a few years, but if it's a keeper you need to think about this. I did not know this on my last car and it came as an unwelcome shock.

Drilled and slotted rotors offer better braking performance, there is no doubt. The primary advantage to the drilling is reduced weight and the slotting, heat dissipation by increasing surface area. Weight and heat dissipation are less of a concern in normal daily driving than on the track (unless you are driving like a complete maniac). Yes, having slotted and drilled rotors looks cooler, because really, it is. Except when the rotors eventually warp and they will because they are brake rotors and that is what brake rotors do, you cannot have them turned on a lathe as you would normal rotors. No, most shops refuse to endanger their equipment by turning slotted or drilled rotors, so then you have to buy an entirely new set of rotors all around.

Replacing the brake pads with a more agressive compound is easy. Opting for a bigger brake kit is a bit more of an investment, with appreciable gains. Buying slotted and/or cross drilled rotors, unless you have a shop willing to turn them, increases your long term maintenance costs significantly.

I'm not saying "Don't do it," I am just making you aware of the major drawback. As I said before, I had cross drilled and slotted rotors on my previous daily driver. Did it make me happy? Absolutely! Was there appreciable difference in traffic? Not really. Did they save my life? I'm not sure, maybe. Was it worth the extra cost of a new set of rotors once I wore the cool cross drilled and slotted set out? I'm going to have to say, "No."

I am a huge proponent of increasing braking capacity, that's one thing you can never have enough of, but cross drilled and/or slotter rotors is not the way to go if you want to improve things long term. Get a brake kit with a bigger footprint and some more agressive pads. That combination with a decent tire will make you happy and save in the long run.

Mike:

Very well said. Brake rotors are a wear item and most important a safety device. The brake rotors and calipers that are on the 3.6 CTS are sized or biased to an engine that is producing 255 BHP. Many fail to realize that when they increase the BHP of that vehicle; that very same sized rotor and caliper is not going to provide the same safe stopping distance as it once did when it was 255 BHP.

So hence; if you increase the size of the boat; you better bring along a heavier anchor and a larger sized rotor that is properly biased with the correct brake caliper piston bore is of paramount importance.

Cross-drilling a rotor adds some cooling and thermal properties to the rotor surface. Gas slotting a rotor provides some added benefit of deglazing the rotor surface of the epoxy compounds from the brake pads and aids in deglazing the rotor's firepath.

Cross-drilled is for looks and certainly adds additional cooling properties to the brake rotor that can reach temperatures above 1000 degrees. Gas-slotting is for the track and those who enjoy cleaning there wheel rims of brake dust compound on a daily basis.

Most local shops will not turn dimpled, drilled or slotted rotors for the reasons you stated. Knowing that in advance; we use a deep -320 degree cryogenic treatment process that changes the molecular alignment of the rotors alloy material and increases the tensile strength and useful life of the product.

Simply stated; we put the finished rotor in a sealed vessel tank and thermal treat it to minus 320 degrees below zero and then heat temper it to 500 degrees farenheight.

We do this to brake rotors because you can't turn them after they are drilled; and for most vehicles owners; they will be the last set of rotors you'll ever purchase during your ownership of the vehicle.

Why do other manufacturers of drilled or slotted rotors not use deep -320 cryogenic thermal treatment. The simple answer is "repeat business". They know in advance that the rotor is a wear item and in 25 to 30k miles; they'll get your money again and again.

It should be noted that there are some companies that sell cryo rotors or frozen rotors etc. These particular rotors are in fact Frozen to -100 degrees. At this thermal level; the life expectancy of that item increases by 100% or 2 times. There is no liquid nitrogen used in this process, but rather a refrigerant much like what is used in a heat pump.

When you introduce liquid nitrogen NO2 and then drop the thermal temperature to -320 degrees below zero; you have in effect increased the life expectancy of that metal substrate by 500 to 700%.

In addition; brake cleaning should be a part of every vehicle owners preventative maintaince program. A good quality brake cleaner and #0000 steel wool on the rotors firepath as well as regular inspection of the brake calipers pistons and rubber boots can head off any problem before it becomes a problem or safety issue.

Pietro,

you have a link to your shop? I'm assuming you're a vendor.

Kael,

Some comments on Porsche 930 cross driled rotors and current Porsche ceramic brake parts.

The 930,begining with 1978 had cross drilled Zimmerman rotors. They are large, heavy and do their job well. They have to in order to handle the horsepower. They are expensive (over $200 per wheel if you shop). They require special caliphers, offsets etc. Under heavy use, they develop hairline cracks between the drilled holes and must be discarded. Figure maybe 20 track days or less before this happens.

Later model Porsches (2000 on) have had ceraqmic pads and brake parts including rotors. I have no personal experience with them but have been told that they have developed MANY problems. I am told Porsche is committed to them and continues to use them. Presumably the earlier problems have been solved.

The issue of cost benefit is highly subjective. If you are a casual track user (like me) I think you are better off with stock Porsche Carrera brakes because of less unsprung weight and incresed reliability. Beyond a doubt, I can assure you that a 930 brake system will carry more speed deeper into a corner then will a stock set up.

I presume the same arguments wold carry forward to a CTS.

The 930 cross drilled Zimmermans, I am 99% certain, are drilled after the fact... not cast with holes. This comes up all the time and many very experienced people have said this was the case. Most Porsches (not 930s) have stock Carrera Zimmermans which have been drilled in a machine shop.

If I were to spend more money on rotors I'd skip the drilled holes and buy slotted rotors.

Pietro,

you have a link to your shop? I'm assuming you're a vendor.

Brian,
See this thread.

http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/cadillac-cts-forum/78122-cms-website.html

Robert

didn't realize it was the same company. See, they need a website. :)

Now that I've tickled some believers into questioning their beliefs, here are a couple of pics from a well known supplier in Europe. With input in another thread elsewhere by industry workers from top mfgs in Detroit to emails from current Brembo engineers...I really rattled some cages on this topic over a year ago.

Of late a large east coast retailer of another big brand was claiming the rumor and was certain he could gather the supporting documents to back it up when I pressed him. So far the money remains in my pocket.

Saying they do not exist because there are no pics means nothing. ok. I do not claim to be 100% certain they do not exist. I can say that I do not believe they exist and have never existed and I'm willing to pay to see proof that they do.

I'm sure by now someone wants to see something so here you are. If you have questions about what you see I'll be glad to answer.

It's really that simple so please don't try to beat me up over it. That's all I ask.

Todd,
This has been an enlightening thread. I've enjoyed your challenge to Kael and others. The information serves the Forum well and at the same time adds a bit of "Gamemanship" to the process.

I am stil telling ya, cooltech made them out of mmc.
see my link on the article.


is this one of those "impossible to win bets"?

It's a cool pic and yes it does show reliefs in the vane wall. But in similar form so does this pic. The owner swore up and down pointing to the reliefs shown as proof. We agreed tha the reliefs were in place but also noted the very clean machined holes done by a cutting tool. When pressed one manufacture admited that the reliefs are in place but the actual HOLE is drilled....(see mold pics above)

We ended up right back where we started. No pics, molds or rough castings ever shown yet to have holes passing during the casting process.

Keep trying. We might get there yet.

***This isn't the first time I've been told I'm not playing fair. That's fine, I can understand the frustration. It's also not the first (or last) time I've been shown a pic of a FINISHED rotor which really tells us nothing. If it was that simple I'd be broke and not still on the crusade for the Holly Rotor! A finished part says nothing of how it was really produced. The molds above clearly show a flat surface in which the iron is placed. Then the holes are drilled- right next to the vane reliefs.

I have at least two OEM engineers who have researched this to great extent. They'd be floored if someone could prove this.

Dug up a bit more research for you guys.

http://www.northamericanmotoring.com/forums/showthread.php?t=71917

Given the price tag you can be certain the reference to "Cross Drilled" rotors would be more of a "exclusive to P, our custom rotors with cast holes..." or some selling point info.

************************************************** *******
Here's a post from another thread with the engineers.


I spoke to an Italian Disc manufacturer while at the Cleveland GP. She used to work for the company that poured Brembos Discs before there was a falling out in the company, which split. She now works for the other half.

She said that back in the 70s, there was talk of it, but it never materialized. The technology, and mold process that it was going to take were no where near something mortals could even dream of so the idea was scrapped. She specifically said that they were drilled after they were poured and even mentioned the cast in hype.

She is the rep that takes care of Stoptechs discs, which I might add, are very VERY nice rotors.

No I dont have a recorded conversation, or pics, but its not like we didnt know they were not cast in any way.

Oh Todd,
no man, dont take it as frustration, i am smiling the entire way.

for me this is more just an excersize then a relization that every where I do everyone has "heard" of it but no one anywhere has any proof of where, its always something they heard on a forum somewhere.

I can see the logic behind the design but I agree that it would be a pain to produce.

So this is just more of an entertaining excersize.. and hey. a little extra cash always helps :)

-K

I'm sure by now someone wants to see something so here you are. If you have questions about what you see I'll be glad to answer.

It's really that simple so please don't try to beat me up over it. That's all I ask.

I don't quite understand...you're saying that their product is NOT cast even though they claim it is? And they agreed with you that it is not cast?

"...rotors are all vented with cast not drilled holes. that means no tension, no cracking*, no splash shield required, and the perfect ventilation for optimum braking. special slots make the surface area of the ventilation system much larger than in conventional rotors, keeping temperatures down and durability up."

what?! manufacturers lie about their claims?! my world is wrecked. you mean the "performace chip" ie. resistor doesn't really produce 40hp???

yes, manufacturers stretch things out just enough without "lying."

I don't quite understand...you're saying that their product is NOT cast even though they claim it is? And they agreed with you that it is not cast?

"...rotors are all vented with cast not drilled holes. that means no tension, no cracking*, no splash shield required, and the perfect ventilation for optimum braking. special slots make the surface area of the ventilation system much larger than in conventional rotors, keeping temperatures down and durability up."

That's pretty much what it came down too~. I'll have to dig a bit in the old files I saved and find the comments. Of course I can't personally confirm them as true as it was not first hand (if that would matter anyhow) but it went sorta like..."we cast the walls to strengthen the hole area, but the actual hole is drilled after the casting is pulled"....blah, blah, blah... Well, that's not quite what the web page says....LOL

In the end of course it proved nothing one way or the other. But the mold pics clearly show non perforated walls. Take it for what it's worth. I'm still in search of that raw casting held up to the light with 48 shining holes smiling at me!