: Dammit Dammit Dammit!!!



DopeStar 156
06-14-06, 04:03 PM
I passed for the smoking part of the inspection but I failed for emissions. My NO, HC, and CO readings were too high to pass. I went to Auto Zone again and this time bought an air filter and this fuel additive stuff that guarentees to pass you through emissions or double your money back. $8 a bottle for this stuff and I had to get two bottles because of the size of my fuel tank. I dumped in the fuel additives and now I just have to burn up the tank and refill, then go back for inspection. I'll throw on the new air filter right before I go for the inspection.

SO MAD!!!! :rant2:

90Brougham350
06-14-06, 04:43 PM
Cheer up DopeStar, you've passed the smoke test. Hopefully you can get through the other tests now, and get the damned sticker. We're all hoping the best for you!

N0DIH
06-14-06, 05:08 PM
Ok, break it down:

HC-This is fuel that was NOT EXPOSED to the flame front. aka, fuel that got caught up in some carbon chunks, or some in a ring land, etc. Lean Mixtures will cause this too. As the flame kernel was too small and did not expose all the A/F mixture to the flame. I would be looking for old spark plugs, cap, rotor, wires, etc. Fuel that got out of suspension in the A/F coming in the chamber can be a cause. Look for vacuum leaks, stuck PCV, loose carb mounting (10 ft/lbs MAX TORQUE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!, this is an every 6 month retorque guys). Lower octane fuel helps here.... Fast burning fuel is the name of the game! Dump a ton of alcohol in the tank to get more O2. Methanol even, but VERY corrosive. Ethanol is best.

CO-This is fuel that make it past the combustion chamber without getting enough O2 to burn. 10% Ethanol fuel can help here by providing additional O2. Dirty air filters are #1 problem. Misfiring cyl will cause also. Partial fire causes HC, full misfire causes CO....

NOx-This is often caused by too high combustion chamber temps. Too high timing, lack of EGR flow are culprits. High octane fuel might help, only because it has more oil and burns slower. Slightly though....

Now, start thinking about your car and what it might be....

Post the actual numbers if you can.

I~LUV~Caddys8792
06-14-06, 05:26 PM
UGH!!!! This is harder than the ACT!!!!!

BluEyes
06-15-06, 11:53 AM
I'd put the air filter on now. If it needs replaced, just do it. It won't get dirty in the space of one tankfull unless you drive through a duststorm or something.

Definately check out the EGR and Ignition system as NODIH suggests. I'd pull all the plugs and check the plug gap and condition as well as measure the resistance and length of the plug wires to calculate resistance per inch. Give the cap and rotor a look as well.

Do you have a code reader? You should have one of the systems tht works with the $20 GM code reader they sell at Wal-Mart. Not all engine codes will set the "service engine soon" light, so that's an easy check.

Another thing to consider is because you have bad valve seals, you probably have some crud built up on the back of the valves that is slowly cleaning itself off and contributing to the bad readings. That will hopefully clear up within the next tank of gas...

Also, is your thermostat working right? A cool engine will make more emissions. Since you probably don't have a temp gauge, a new 195* thermostat might be in order if the current one is more than a few years old.

caddydream
06-16-06, 01:27 PM
What kind of engine is it again?

N0DIH
06-16-06, 01:47 PM
Olds 307, Engine Code Y or 9 (likely a Y, but 9's have shown up). 7A heads (small ports similar to the Olds 260 "10" head with larger valves and slightly larger chambers.

DopeStar 156
06-16-06, 02:31 PM
Mine's the HO 9 engine actually, I got lucky there. I went back and failed again. The readings were lower but barely.... I'm demanding a refund from "Guarenteed to Pass" because I did what they said and I ****in' didn't....

Also the assclowns at the inspection station turned my car the **** off, restarted it 5 minutes later, THEN ran an emissions test! I flipped a shit when they told me I failed and told them they shouldn't have turned the car off in the first place, but they just didn't care....

Anyway, I'm gonna try to have the carb settings checked out and adjusted accordingly. If that won't do it then I guess I might need a catalytic converter.... If I need a new cat I'm getting a performance cat since I was intending on getting one anyway.....

Anyone else think there's something I missed?

turbojimmy
06-16-06, 02:58 PM
Mine's the HO 9 engine actually, I got lucky there. I went back and failed again. The readings were lower but barely.... I'm demanding a refund from "Guarenteed to Pass" because I did what they said and I ****in' didn't....

Also the assclowns at the inspection station turned my car the **** off, restarted it 5 minutes later, THEN ran an emissions test! I flipped a shit when they told me I failed and told them they shouldn't have turned the car off in the first place, but they just didn't care....

Anyway, I'm gonna try to have the carb settings checked out and adjusted accordingly. If that won't do it then I guess I might need a catalytic converter.... If I need a new cat I'm getting a performance cat since I was intending on getting one anyway.....

Anyone else think there's something I missed?

I'd take it to a garage and be done with it. The state stations are just going to continue to bust your nuts. There's no reason for them to shut the car off for 5 minutes. The catalyst has to be hot - they did that so you would fail.

I put some stuff called "FUELON POWER" in my Typhoon to get it through inspection every 2 years. It would fail for HCs (it ran rich, never could figure out why). Sometimes it worked, sometimes it didn't. The guy I took it to always got it to pass, though (nudge, nudge, wink wink).

Jim

N0DIH
06-16-06, 03:29 PM
Are you running 10% ethanol fuel or straight gas?

10% ethanol, or even run like 30% E85 might be just the ticket to make it pass. It will lower CO levels for sure.

IF you can get it there. It is only 25 miles away for me to get.

DopeStar 156
06-16-06, 04:25 PM
I usually run 89 octane fuel in there but when I filled up recently they only had regular, so I was forced to fill up on the 87. Why would they fail me on purpose?

Patrick7997
06-16-06, 06:24 PM
We've had this goofy emissions inspecting forever here in the People's Republic of Wisconsin..... sucks big time...

NODIH's posts are right on.... they should probably be added to Tech Tips or something....

In my experience, if & when applicable to your car, these are the critical elements: plugs, wires, rotor, cap, air filter, PCV, EGR, Oxygen Sensors.

Any one of these things can cause you to fail. If you find the "bad actor", you can go from a bad fail to an easy pass....

NODIH is right about ethanol... I did get one to pass years ago by pouring like 6 bottles of ISO-HEAT into about a quarter tank of gas.... alchohol usually burns nice & clean....

And yeah, your best results are with the car totally warmed up... but don't sit there in line idling... gasses build up in your exhaust system... keep shutting it off, once its warm. I've been told shutting off all the accesories in the car is also a good idea, so the motor is running as "easy" as it can... no air, stereo off, fans off....

Good luck, DopeStar. We're pulling for you.

caddydream
06-16-06, 10:14 PM
I've had 3 of these engines so far and they are very sensitive to the EGR. The timing is set high (20 degrees BTDC) so EGR needs to work right. Do you notice any pinging?

The EGR passages in my cars were full of carbon. On my Delta 88 the cat was partially clogged which caused the EGR passages to totally plug up. There are 2 tubes in the intake manifold under the primaries of the carb. These tubes are connected to the EGR valve via passages in the intake manifold. If the tubes are clogged like mine were, EGR does not work.

You can check by taking the carb off the manifold and looking down into the primary bores. The tubes should be clear of crud. Also remove the EGR valve and look for carbon buildup. The valve can be cleaned with a wire brush. Run wire through the passages between EGR and the carb to unclog. If the tubes are clogged drill them out with a power drill.

Also check the operation of the EGR valve by applying vacuum. I take a drag on the hose to the EGR valve with my mouth like a true motorhead. No high but it should cause the diaphram to move and the idle speed to change when on the engine.

So many things to look for when it isn't running right. Like the others said the condition of the ignition system should be good before moving on to other things.

Of course when the clowns at the inspection station don't do it right it's hard to win. Good Luck!

DopeStar 156
06-17-06, 03:27 AM
Good luck, DopeStar. We're pulling for you.
Thanks. Some good suggestions here, I'll get to the bottom of this, for now looks like I'll be making the NJ meet sans the sticker....

N0DIH
06-17-06, 01:05 PM
You aren't kidding. I don't know if I have ever seen a engine so sensitive to EGR flow. I guess GM dialed it in tight, no tolerance for bad EGR flow.

Mine wouldn't run anything but 93 octane on base timing. I finally pulled the carb and ran a drill bit down the EGR tubes and it took a bit of drilling to clear it. It was BAD. I got it cleared and it ran far more power than it had in years and 87 octane. It was a major improvement!

The ECM knows when it commands EGR and when it expects it to open (remember, this is a positive backpressure EGR), so when it expects it to open, it leans fuel mixture and increases timing. 2 things that contribute to HC and NOx (lean=HC, NOx=high timing and also lean mix). CO will fall into place with air filter and PCV in most cases. So with a weak spark and weak or bad EGR, you end up with a major emissions problem.

If you have a question on EGR flow, I would highly receommend a careful exam on the EGR flow (valves don't fail that often, so don't rush out to replace it), it is the EGR valve outlet to the EGR stack tubes under the carb that are most important.

AIR pump is just at cold start and when you hit WOT IIRC. It helps reduce some CO at cold IIRC. I have a good one from my 307, free to good home, with brackets. I rebuilt it some time ago and it is nice and free now.


I've had 3 of these engines so far and they are very sensitive to the EGR. The timing is set high (20 degrees BTDC) so EGR needs to work right. Do you notice any pinging?

The EGR passages in my cars were full of carbon. On my Delta 88 the cat was partially clogged which caused the EGR passages to totally plug up. There are 2 tubes in the intake manifold under the primaries of the carb. These tubes are connected to the EGR valve via passages in the intake manifold. If the tubes are clogged like mine were, EGR does not work.

You can check by taking the carb off the manifold and looking down into the primary bores. The tubes should be clear of crud. Also remove the EGR valve and look for carbon buildup. The valve can be cleaned with a wire brush. Run wire through the passages between EGR and the carb to unclog. If the tubes are clogged drill them out with a power drill.

Also check the operation of the EGR valve by applying vacuum. I take a drag on the hose to the EGR valve with my mouth like a true motorhead. No high but it should cause the diaphram to move and the idle speed to change when on the engine.

So many things to look for when it isn't running right. Like the others said the condition of the ignition system should be good before moving on to other things.

Of course when the clowns at the inspection station don't do it right it's hard to win. Good Luck!

DopeStar 156
06-18-06, 01:08 PM
Hmm, can you explain to me what the EGR does?

N0DIH
06-18-06, 04:06 PM
EGR, Exhaust Gas Recirculation.

Basically it takes some small portion of the exhaust and reroutes it back into the intake, directly under the carb primaries that dilutes the incoming A/F mixutre with a basically inert gas that has an effect of reducing peak combustion chamber temps. Like taking a fire and adding a little water to it. Just knocks the temps down, only with something that is free and has no residual value.

But, as you can see, this has an effect of hurting power. BUT, we have found that we can add some timing when this happens and lean out the fuel mixture and actually regain some lost power back.

Some believe if properly managed, it might have some fuel economy benefit.

But, on your car, the ECM controls it, and if the flow isn't there, the ECM has no idea, and still leans out mixture (high HC) and increases timing (high NOx). It was highly designed into the operation of the 307 and is a major factor for power and economy. If not working 100% right, it will hurt a lot, power and emissions mainly.

DopeStar 156
06-18-06, 05:08 PM
Hmm, sounds like you may have nailed it there... The symptoms are all there. What can I do to check it out?

DopeStar 156
06-20-06, 01:54 AM
I had a thought...

I filled up with premium gas and noticed a major difference in performance since I had regular in there. I'm concidering driving the car around tomorrow then trying the inspection once more on Wednesday with the partially used tank of premium fuel. Think it'll get me through?

Patrick7997
06-20-06, 01:41 PM
If the EGR is plugged, probably not....

If you really want to try it again before looking at that EGR, get a few bottles of iso-heat and pour them in the tank first.... or try throwing a gallon or two of E85 in there....

Should probably clean up that EGR though.... Just my humble opinion....

N0DIH
06-20-06, 10:32 PM
Yup, you won't regret cleaning up the EGR.

DopeStar 156
06-22-06, 02:03 PM
Apparently I have to remove the carb to get to it. How hard is this gonna be and how time consuming?

caddydream
06-23-06, 11:52 PM
It's not too bad. Even fun. Put a new gasket for the carb and clean the base of it good.

N0DIH
06-24-06, 11:57 PM
I often get a new gasket and stack it with the old one if it is in good shape (more heat isolation). I haven't ever had a leak.

Yup, get a 1in wrench, a 5/8" line wrench, a 1/2" socket/ratchet, and you can pull it in no time. I never had any problems with it. Don't over tighten the carb, 10 ft/lbs max. You can really damage it by being a gorilla with the carb to manifold bolts.

Don't try to take out the EGR stack tubes (well, I did, and replaced them with brass plugs and drilled 3/8" holes in them to improve intake air flow....) but GM does not recommend. I have heard of people dropping them in, or the floor of the intake can crumble on ones that are not doing well....

DopeStar 156
06-26-06, 02:14 AM
Issssssss this the EGR Valve?

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y250/DopeStar156/egr2.jpg
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y250/DopeStar156/egr1.jpg

Because if so, why do I need to take the carb off? Everything seems easily accessable without the removal of the carb.....

turbojimmy
06-26-06, 06:27 AM
Issssssss this the EGR Valve?

Because if so, why do I need to take the carb off? Everything seems easily accessable without the removal of the carb.....

Yeah that's it. Doesn't look like you have to take the carb off. Just that one bolt. If you have access to a vacuum pump (like a Mity Vac) you can put vacuum on it and make sure it's opening and closing like it should. It could just be clogged, though.

Make sure you get a new gasket, too. If it's never been off you may destroy the gasket while removing the valve. The auto parts store should have one.

Jim

DopeStar 156
06-26-06, 11:29 AM
I was concidering just replacing the entire thing since it's only a $60 part. As far as a vacuum pump, I have a mini shop vac, but I dunno if that'll do it.....

N0DIH
06-26-06, 07:26 PM
Why are you going to replace it?

Clean the EGR stack tubes under the carb, don't replace the valve, it likely is good and replacing it won't fix anything.

You can't test it with just vacuum applied on the valve, it is a POSITIVE Backpressure type, so it needs engine back pressure (engine running, revved up) to close the tiny valve in the EGR valve sense to make it close, else it will just act like it is a ruptured diaphram.

See the FSM for specific testing procedure.

I'd put my $$ on the EGR stack tubes, they need to be cleaned every 30K or so. If they start to get clogged up with carbon, they can cause emissions failures and will require higher octane to keep it from pinging (if bad enough)