: Suspension, V Handling, General Car handling question



dannystang
06-09-06, 11:07 AM
Ok here goes,

I would like to try to keep this to serious answers but I know Florian wont resist.

When I drove me car BEFORE hotchis sways the body would sway to the left or right kinda floating off the suspension and when it could not anymore the rear would break lose and both rear tires would just fishtale.

Fast-foward to with hotchkis.

Now the car is much flatter ive had em on for a while now but I notice when I hit a turn REALLY hard the car will bow a little, but now the rear doesnt entirely break lose, it feels like I am driving on an uneven surface and one tire is EXTREMELY underload and the other is hopping?

Shouldnt the car remain flat on the turn?

Test drove a corvette it didn't do that so I ruled out its an IRS thing.

Its really scary as if I fishtale atleast I can regain control. This feels like 1 tire on the road the other off..very wierd feeling when you get off the turn.

Very Wierd, anyhow you pro racer types might be able to explain...

Will the coil overs fix this?

By the way I do have FG2 currently.

dannystang
06-10-06, 07:17 AM
Hold on lemme get this right...

NOT ONE RESPONSE?!?!?

Damn you guys hate me.

atdeneve
06-10-06, 07:43 AM
Excessively stiff sway bars will have the effect of lifting one wheel (the inside rear wheel) off the ground. Whether that would be the case here, I don't know, but I would be inclined to think that the Hotchkiss are not that stiff.

Plus, I think our cars are just too heavy. They'd probably start sliding before lifting - unless you did some serious spine shattering suspension tweaks. Slap em on an EVO and, sure, I wouldn't doubt that the rear inside wheels are lifting when you're doing some serious driving.

Are you comparing/observing this change in handling dynamic on the same turns, tried before and after the install?

Could it be something as simple as running in a higher gear than usual, thereby preventing the back from swinging out as easily? But, then again, if you were trying to accelerate through a turn in too high a gear, you'd probably be experiencing much more plowing/understeering - in such a situation you probably wouldn't have sufficient g forces to promote lifting in the rear.

In any case, that is odd. I hope I won't be experiencing that with my Hotchkiss. There are several people who have taken the V to the track with the Hotchkiss. Surely, if anywhere, they would have experienced this on the road course. Who knows, maybe you got everyone stumped?

StealthV
06-10-06, 08:16 AM
Danny, what do you have for tires on the rear and their size? Stock wheels?

dannystang
06-10-06, 08:32 AM
Danny, what do you have for tires on the rear and their size? Stock wheels?

Everything is stock, GSC 245/18 nothing fancy...

Thanks for the replies though :)

KTSwanson
06-10-06, 08:32 AM
Danny, what do you have for tires on the rear and their size? Stock wheels?
I had a similar problem in spite of major suspension stiffening when I replaced the stock F1 EMTs with RSA-EMTs: weird floating sensations, virtually resolved on replacing the RSA-EMTs with Toyo Proxe T1Rs.

StealthV
06-10-06, 09:40 AM
Ever watch a front wheel drive car at an AutoX lift the inside rear wheel off the ground all the way around a corner? This sounds similar to what you're describing - just not to the point of completely unloading the inside tire.

The factory bars of course are set to the "safe" side to allow one to find the limit and not get into too much trouble when one finds it.

Would a fresh shot of grease in the bushings help? The bar may be sticking a bit and not providing a smooth load transfer across the rear?

Florian
06-10-06, 10:02 AM
Hold on lemme get this right...

NOT ONE RESPONSE?!?!?

Damn you guys hate me.

We actually really enjoy watching you flail about. I had no answer to your one and only question that had merit. Im proud of you my little knob-washer!


F

Florian
06-10-06, 10:05 AM
Would a fresh shot of grease in the tush help? Maybe sticking a smooth load inside Danny's rear would help

Rick knows what ButtHoleStang really likes.....

Thats the one I was waiting for.....



F

StealthV
06-10-06, 10:11 AM
Good thing I backspaced over what I had typed - it was wide open and I knew you'd jump on it if I left it the way it was.

There, you got some more...

BadCad
06-10-06, 11:57 AM
good thing my mamma doesn't read these posts - my oh my! :tisk:

dannystang
06-10-06, 09:59 PM
We actually really enjoy watching you flail about. I had no answer to your one and only question that had merit. Im proud of you my little knob-washer!


F

Hey I have plenty of questions that had merit...

alcast082
06-11-06, 11:57 AM
The subaru sti ar homestead speed way do the 3 wheel thing around every turn, Pretty damn fast too.

L.Sanchez
06-11-06, 08:37 PM
Ok here goes,
Now the car is much flatter ive had em on for a while now but I notice when I hit a turn REALLY hard the car will bow a little, but now the rear doesnt entirely break lose, it feels like I am driving on an uneven surface and one tire is EXTREMELY underload and the other is hopping?

Shouldnt the car remain flat on the turn?

You have the same setup as I have. FG2's with the hotchkiss bars. What you are describing to me sounds like tire scrub...where the front end of the car feels like its just sliding very hard against the road and the power to the rear isn't being planted right. Tires are an obvious idea to this problem, but before you dump another $800+ on tires, I might suggest an alignment.

After I put the bars on, I noticed a similar thing, so I went and got my car re-aligned with a more aggressive alignment. Big difference...no more scrub feeling, no more rear end that didn't feel as progressive or smooth as it had with the smaller bars. A good custom alignment is usually about $80-$100 and even if it doesn't make a huge difference, the decrease in tire wear was noticeable as was the difference in the way the car steers and handles.

Ladis

L.Sanchez
06-11-06, 08:37 PM
Ok here goes,
Now the car is much flatter ive had em on for a while now but I notice when I hit a turn REALLY hard the car will bow a little, but now the rear doesnt entirely break lose, it feels like I am driving on an uneven surface and one tire is EXTREMELY underload and the other is hopping?

Shouldnt the car remain flat on the turn?

You have the same setup as I have. FG2's with the hotchkiss bars. What you are describing to me sounds like tire scrub...where the front end of the car feels like its just sliding very hard against the road and the power to the rear isn't being planted right. Tires are an obvious idea to this problem, but before you dump another $800+ on tires, I might suggest an alignment.

After I put the bars on, I noticed a similar thing, so I went and got my car re-aligned with a more aggressive alignment. Big difference...no more scrub feeling, no more rear end that didn't feel as progressive or smooth as it had with the smaller bars. A good custom alignment is usually about $80-$100 and even if it doesn't make a huge difference, the decrease in tire wear was noticeable as was the difference in the way the car steers and handles.

Ladis

Dreamin
06-11-06, 10:54 PM
but now the rear doesnt entirely break lose, it feels like I am driving on an uneven surface and one tire is EXTREMELY underload and the other is hopping?

Dont follow... so this is right before the rear breaks lose? which wheel is hopping (inside or outside)? Or when the rear is sliding... it's sliding/hopping?

In either case this isn't normal... you may have something binding, loose or broke... The stiffer bars could now be really exaggerating the problem. Check that one of the rear springs hasn't partially popped out of the lower cradle... check for a blown rear shock (small stream of oil on the casing)... Push down on the left side of the trunk hard... and then right side of trunk... do both bounce back the same? Any clunking when you do this? Finally, check your alignment... if rear toe is out of whack... the rear will feel scarey crazy.

More description of the symptom / car feel please...

VELOSE
06-11-06, 11:09 PM
I think I know what Dannystang is going thru. I have FE4 struts/shocks though. I've felt that eventhough the sways keep the car from boating around side to side, it almost feels like there's a side effect. It feels like when taking a turn aggressively, the suspension seems to compress more. Almost like the sways are so stiff when activated by a hard turn that if the suspension can't absorb the extra downforce created by the sways, the car can plow. I don't know how else to describe it. Maybe I can think of some other way to describe it.

By the way, I went over a driveway the other day and the car 3 wheeled very slightly for the very first time. I know the feeling because I had an 03' VW GTI with front and rear sways that 3 wheeled often.

dannystang
06-12-06, 06:46 AM
I think I know what Dannystang is going thru. I have FE4 struts/shocks though. I've felt that eventhough the sways keep the car from boating around side to side, it almost feels like there's a side effect. It feels like when taking a turn aggressively, the suspension seems to compress more. Almost like the sways are so stiff when activated by a hard turn that if the suspension can't absorb the extra downforce created by the sways, the car can plow. I don't know how else to describe it. Maybe I can think of some other way to describe it.

By the way, I went over a driveway the other day and the car 3 wheeled very slightly for the very first time. I know the feeling because I had an 03' VW GTI with front and rear sways that 3 wheeled often.

I think you nailed it Velrose, I tried it the other day, I tried it both on an offramp (right turn) and a 90 degree intersection (no one around it was ok)...

Its like the Front left suspension is compressing to its limits, the rear left (drivers front and left) also digs in it almost feels like the tire is stuck between the car and the pavement and has no where to go.. meanwhile the passanger left kinda has a hoping feeling...

Ever been on a teeter tot?

The car gives me the impression its 3 wheeling but like someone mentioned I dont even believe that could be possible in the V...

Dreamin, no this happens without the rear breaking lose, doesnt happen on a progressive turn either (ie the offramp) just on sudden quick turns.

When it does break lose it doesnt breaklose like the V use to which was somewhat controled, this is more like grabing an old 1990 ltd turning the steering wheel full force and 90 mph just to see what happens...well who know what happens but i would imagine it would teetertot.

Hopefully this week I will grab alcast and have him video

blown black caddy
06-12-06, 10:35 AM
If you are using stock springs the spring rates needs to be increased for the front. That should help with the car compressing. This will keep the right rear tire on the ground. Sway bars only help decrease the body roll(yaw). It's early in the morning for me and I may have read this the wrong way. Either that or you have a binding problem with the sway bars? Try swapping out the Hotchkis for the stock and see if it still does it? I'd try the front first and then replace and swap the rear bar? Just my 2 cents.......:getaway: