: A Little Head



ShadowLvr400
01-30-04, 06:27 PM
Not like that you pervs. I ordered the heads from XMS today. They should arrive next week. My caddy may be back on its feet by mid Feb. Of course, I don't think I'll be able to slip in with the computer reprogramming, but I'm going to hunt up that thread, and check the link.

Ralph
01-30-04, 08:38 PM
Not like that you pervs. I ordered the heads from XMS today. They should arrive next week. My caddy may be back on its feet by mid Feb. Of course, I don't think I'll be able to slip in with the computer reprogramming, but I'm going to hunt up that thread, and check the link.

:mad:

DeVillish
01-30-04, 08:54 PM
where would you get the computer reprogramed? I should be getting either an Eldo or STS after basic and stuff, and i'll be very interested in this stuff.

ShadowLvr400
01-30-04, 09:08 PM
2 months back, a post I started about OBD2 Programmers. Someone found that domesticperformance.com would do it, if you send them your car's computer. A number of people were skeptical, but since I'm going to have more power, and the accursed 112 governor, I'll take the plunge.

ShadowLvr400
02-05-04, 11:21 AM
News update, the heads that Bob had on the shelf were a bit corroded from sitting a while. So he's having his shop guy make me a fresh set. It'll take about 2 weeks it seems, so my caddy won't be back up quite as soon as I'd hoped. Ah well.

ShadowLvr400
02-25-04, 01:19 AM
Myparts have arrived. And they're heavy. I'm going to take pictures of them in the morning, and show what they look like. I'll also try to get pictures of the car in progress.

Ralph
02-25-04, 01:28 AM
What's a guestimate on your total hp when it's complete?

ShadowLvr400
02-25-04, 08:35 AM
In theory, 380-390 horse, and 405-420 torque. Roughly. my engine numbers on its own pushed about 280 horse, and 310-315 torque up at the crank. Runnin some calcs based on my 1/4 mile trap speed, and some math equation that I don't know offhand, it said 274 to the tires. I have one where I was a bit faster, so leaning towards the 280 mark or more. The dyno gave me accurate torque of 295 to the tires. Using a 5% torque loss through an avg automatic, puts me in the 310-315 range. Can also look at the difference in the motors shape, the dyno was before I had a lot of service done to the car which woke it back up even more.

Dubya
02-25-04, 01:44 PM
the 4t80e has 24% loss, the average auto fwd is like 18-20%

maybe those were crank #'s?

can't wait to here the news! the 1 reason i don't want a 2k3 aurora to replace my 95 is because of lack of performance, sounds like this can make it reach even exceed a stock 4.6! sweeeeeeeeeet

ShadowLvr400
02-25-04, 08:50 PM
Pictures posted on ym cardomain page. But, they came out blurry. Dangit.

Ralph
02-25-04, 10:08 PM
the 4t80e has 24% loss, the average auto fwd is like 18-20%

maybe those were crank #'s?

can't wait to here the news! the 1 reason i don't want a 2k3 aurora to replace my 95 is because of lack of performance, sounds like this can make it reach even exceed a stock 4.6! sweeeeeeeeeet

I've never heard of loss being quite that high.

Dubya
02-26-04, 12:29 AM
aurora's always dyno at 189-190hp at the wheels, i always see 300hp cadillacs dyno at around 230hp. the 4t80e is huge, it can hold alot of power, but it sucks alot up too

ShadowLvr400
03-22-04, 11:10 AM
Towed it to the shop today. That was a fun experience. Sheesh, can't get it onto a flatbed, so had to pull the grill plate, bungee the hood shut, after tying to the front engine mounts with some rope. A Ford F150 drug me there.
As for the shop, should be about a 4-5 days of work time. They did not look impressed... They like the car, and ready to do the work, but not ecstatic to be doing it. :)

Yay! Finally gonna be back on the road!

CadCrazy
03-22-04, 02:06 PM
Towed it to the shop today. That was a fun experience. Sheesh, can't get it onto a flatbed, so had to pull the grill plate, bungee the hood shut, after tying to the front engine mounts with some rope. A Ford F150 drug me there.
As for the shop, should be about a 4-5 days of work time. They did not look impressed... They like the car, and ready to do the work, but not ecstatic to be doing it. :)

Yay! Finally gonna be back on the road!

I am excited about your new heads. Please let me know how they turn out as I also plan to buy them especially if they give even half the claimed horsepower. I also put a down payment on the supercharger but have not heard anything. Maybe I will call Bob today...Whats it been now two years?

Allante North *
03-23-04, 07:18 PM
Good to hear your getting closer! Please keep us posted. I've been looking for some 93-94 heads for some time to work up, but they are hard to come by. Can't wait to see some time slips.

ShadowLvr400
03-23-04, 09:37 PM
I'm cursed, I swear. The shop, after getting a good look in and under the car, don't want to do the work now. Arg! Going there tomorrow to talk them back into it. If they refuse, the car's getting pushed into a river or something. A car that I can't get repaired is of no use.

CadCrazy
03-23-04, 10:21 PM
I'm cursed, I swear. The shop, after getting a good look in and under the car, don't want to do the work now. Arg! Going there tomorrow to talk them back into it. If they refuse, the car's getting pushed into a river or something. A car that I can't get repaired is of no use.
If they don't feel comfortable doing it please don't let them do it...That is just my opinion though. But hurry and get it done as we are all excited about the heads :burn:

Aurora By Olds
03-24-04, 12:33 AM
I'm cursed, I swear. The shop, after getting a good look in and under the car, don't want to do the work now. Arg! Going there tomorrow to talk them back into it. If they refuse, the car's getting pushed into a river or something. A car that I can't get repaired is of no use.
Have it trailored to my house, you provide the parts, I'll do the labor.....
Too bad were like 1200 miles apart :)

zonie77
03-24-04, 09:36 AM
What is scaring the shop? 2 guys dropped the engine in a 97STS in 6 hrs without power tools or lift and I was gone 2 of those hours.

Did you get the manual? Mitchell or Alldata should be enough but the manual is probably a lot better for the head swap. Did you get the timesert kit?

ShadowLvr400
03-24-04, 11:49 AM
It's not so much pulling the motor, it's the machine shops that are stopping this guy. He uses 1 machine shop, and they don't want to deck check, clearance check, and time sert the block. I have ALL the damn parts for it, but they don't want to.
I have a machine shop 40 miles away, willing to do the work for some 1600+ BUT, they don't want the car, just the motor. ASE certified but doesn't want the whole car, just the damn motor. So, find a way to pull the motor, transport it, and then put it back in. Realign the engine cradle and so forth, do the front end alignment. So close to torching the car right now I'm glad it's not within reach.
As for towing it, I would need to pull the front and reap bumper off to get it on a flatbed. Bloody hell.

BeelzeBob
03-24-04, 12:08 PM
It's not so much pulling the motor, it's the machine shops that are stopping this guy. He uses 1 machine shop, and they don't want to deck check, clearance check, and time sert the block. I have ALL the damn parts for it, but they don't want to.
I have a machine shop 40 miles away, willing to do the work for some 1600+ BUT, they don't want the car, just the motor. ASE certified but doesn't want the whole car, just the damn motor. So, find a way to pull the motor, transport it, and then put it back in. Realign the engine cradle and so forth, do the front end alignment. So close to torching the car right now I'm glad it's not within reach.
As for towing it, I would need to pull the front and reap bumper off to get it on a flatbed. Bloody hell.


Why won't the shop install the timeserts themselves...??? It is an easy operation that certainly doesn't require a machine shop. There is nothing that needs to be decked or machined to do this and I wouldn't recommend decking the block anyway.... Just have the shop do the timeserts and install the heads. What kind of shop is that if they can't do timeserts and a head install??? Maybe you need to find another place to work on it...???

ShadowLvr400
03-24-04, 12:15 PM
They're wanting to garuntee their work, and don't feel comfortable putting on the new heads without doing the check. And it's everyone's concern with the nitrous system. The fact that I'm not going to refill my tank until very far down the road, if at all. Want to rip the f***er off almost, and sell it off. I think what it really is, he has easier work lined up, and my car's too hard and not enough cash to be worth it.

BeelzeBob
03-24-04, 12:20 PM
They're wanting to garuntee their work, and don't feel comfortable putting on the new heads without doing the check. And it's everyone's concern with the nitrous system. The fact that I'm not going to refill my tank until very far down the road, if at all. Want to rip the f***er off almost, and sell it off. I think what it really is, he has easier work lined up, and my car's too hard and not enough cash to be worth it.

Not a lot of places will "guarantee" work done on mod engines. Maybe you just have to write them a letter detailing exactly what you want done and releasing them from any responsibility....that is the sort of thing you get into with a mod'd engine unfortunately.

ShadowLvr400
03-24-04, 12:31 PM
Hmm... But, I still need to know the engine will stay running for more than 10 minutes. Especially with the way I drive.

BeelzeBob
03-24-04, 03:58 PM
Hmm... But, I still need to know the engine will stay running for more than 10 minutes. Especially with the way I drive.

This is hard to guarantee. The guys that you are wanting to work on the engine did not do the heads..... They are working on a mod engine that you could decide the spray 10 minutes from the shop. Such is the nature of doing high performance mods. You are mandating the changes to the engine so you have to step up and accept responsibility for your actions. If it blows, it blows and you pay to take it apart and find out what went wrong. That is why most people that do this sort of thing learn how to work on it themselves and do it themselves...no offense...but it will be hard to find a mechanic that will take all your parts and bolt them on a mod engine and "guarantee" that it will run for more than 5 minutes. If it blows and you find that they left a head bolt out then you might make a case for asking them for warranty work....but....generally speaking in a deal like this you are on your own. People that want to mod the engine need to understand this upfront. There are no real guarantees in any high perf work, especially since you are developing a package yourself...i.e..no one is selling you a crate engine to put in the car that is tested and sorted out.

For example, suppose the engine gets put together and immediately blows up. You take it apart and find a broken valve. Is it the mechanics fault. If he guarantees that he is a nut. It is the guys who ported the head or assembled the head...or did you just overrev it....???? That is why "guarantees" on mod'd engines are non-existent.

ShadowLvr400
03-24-04, 04:23 PM
I'm not asking for some major warranty, just enough for him to say, that he'll promise to put the parts on properly, and do a proper install. Like if it blows and we find it blew because he put the cam in backwards, that I'd bitch about. He's saying right now, without having the machine shop, he doesn't even want to garuntee the work.

zonie77
03-25-04, 12:51 AM
A) If the shop or their machine shop doesn't do all the work they aren't gonna guarantee anything. That is part of the profit built into the part or shop charges. If they didn't control the parts or shop work they don't want to get into a complicated mess.

B) "Hmm... But, I still need to know the engine will stay running for more than 10 minutes. Especially with the way I drive."

Another reason not to guarantee it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!

C) "That is why most people that do this sort of thing learn how to work on it themselves and do it themselves..."

We discussed this before...Is spring break coming up?? The cradle alignment doesn't seem to be a problem. We lined it to the wear marks (very little play anyway) and the car tracks straight.

D) If you aren't gonna do this yourself start calling performance shops to find someone who can do it.

ShadowLvr400
03-25-04, 09:55 AM
My Spring Break's already over. And already called all the shops around, this is the only one who expressed an ounce of interest in doing the car. Hey Zonie, where are you at, and how much would you want to do the car? All the parts are in the trunk etc. (Wouldn't be able to be there till very last week of April, first week of may.

zonie77
03-25-04, 10:34 AM
Arizona, near Phoenix. I don't work on other peoples cars, just family and friends. I have enough work there and I don't even get paid!!!!LOL(then a sob)

BeelzeBob
03-25-04, 02:40 PM
Shadow, where are you...er...ah...where is your car???

ShadowLvr400
03-26-04, 12:31 AM
My caddy and I are both central Florida. East of Disney. Basically right at Kennedy Space Center, little south of Daytona Beach.

ShadowLvr400
03-26-04, 02:26 PM
They're going to do the work, garuntee on putting it together right, but no warranty on how long the parts and such will last. Works for me, I'll be gentle and keep an eye on everything.
As a note, my tranny fluid was very low, so going to do a check on that while in there. Wouldn't surprise me that it leaked out, thing's been sitting a while.

BeelzeBob
03-26-04, 02:44 PM
They're going to do the work, garuntee on putting it together right, but no warranty on how long the parts and such will last. Works for me, I'll be gentle and keep an eye on everything.
As a note, my tranny fluid was very low, so going to do a check on that while in there. Wouldn't surprise me that it leaked out, thing's been sitting a while.

Tranny fluid low...how could you tell if you didn't start the engine?? The engine/trans must be warmed up and idling to check the level in the 4T80E. The 4T80E stores the oil in the side cover (it is a dry sump system) so the engine must be idling to allow the trans scavenge pump to fill the side cover to check the oil. As the trans sits the oil will drain to the bottom pan over time so probably the oil is just in the bottom pan and the level will be fine once the engine is started.

If you have them service the trans, remind them to drop the bottom pan, clean the screens, drain the side cover completely by removing the hidden drain plug that is accessed once the bottom pan is removed and refill with fresh fluid checking the level at the fill port with the engine idling and warm.

I assume this shop has the service manuals for the Northstar and is familiar with changing the heads, setting the cam timing and such..... The engine is straight forward to work on but does require special techniques, bolt tensioning procedures, etc....

ljklaiber
03-26-04, 04:03 PM
Just excuse my opinions, but any who mod , need to understand the Rod! No guarantees .

Head porting is more art than science, at least in my day. Numbers on the Superflow, tended to get lost on the Dyno. Port volume slows airspeed, and the shapes at or directly beside a precision 3 angle valve job were most important. Before I retired, I had a Serdi 100 valve and seat machine. It corrected and gained 75 percent of the improvement I needed. I just massaged the ports, and the results translated. Changing cams, and installing headers and increasing the 'blowdown', just adds to the job. Nitrous just seems to ignite the torch sooner. Never worked with it much.

I may be an old guy, but I never quit on a job for my customers. I live in SE Georgia, and if everyone falls out, contact me here at this post site, and I will try to see that with or without NOS, your 'Baby' runs.

:coolgleam

BeelzeBob
03-26-04, 05:16 PM
I tend to agree with you. It will be interesting to see the head porting results. My experience with "ported" Northstar heads has been very poor, actually. There is so much dependence on in-cylinder motion with port fuel injected engines that tampering with the intake ports, in particular, can often make less power even though they flow more air as the porting can tend to stratify the charge creating rich/lean regions in the combustion chamber resulting in poor combustion and a loss in power.

Cylinder head mods with port fuel injected engines need to be done cautiously as a port fuel injected engine is guaranteed to have a non-homogenous mixture being pulled into the cylinder....i.e...all the fuel for the charge is at the intake valve and the rest of the charge that comes in later and last is all air....so the fuel is all next to the piston and the only way to mix the stuff up is via swirl/tumble/squish during the intake stroke and during the compression stroke. Changing the port shape can DRAMATICALLY effect this relationship. This is not such a problem with carbed engines as the mixture with a carb and a wet manifold is already somewhat homogeneous before it starts past the valve. This is one aspect of port fuel injection that people don't often recognize as a large negative is that the port injection engine with a dry manifold has a very stratified charge going into the chamber past the intake valve and the port shape and port flow governs the resulting in-cylinder flow that mixes the charge.....gross airflow is not always the best thing.

Mods on the exhaust side only can help as the Northstar head is a bit weak on that side as the exhaust ports were designed more to keep the exhaust velocity up for emissions...so flow does mean something on the exhaust side but the intake work ususally ends up in the engine making less power from what I have seen.

ljklaiber
03-26-04, 06:12 PM
BBob,
You are exactly right. I never worked with port fuel injection, but did development on the small two barrel; LMS cars of Nascar. The great reduction in airflow resulted in a 'wet load' at the valve head as identified by dykem spray into the carb at WFO, and verification on disassembly.

All I can say is my best improvements were made by ditch cutting the valve head above the top angle and radiusing the margin itself , below the seat.

Three distinct lathe cuts from stem to .062 above the
first top angle . aerated the wet flow enough to make us competitive.

In a production engine, not subject to rules, I would tend to make a more universal (rough surface) on the back face and lower stem of the valve itself.

As you stated, it is all about compleating the burn in the power stroke.

The aerated charge is more active and to the engine, it appears more lean. Easier to 'light the fire'.

Enjoy your posts here. It will never B EZ!

ljk

ljklaiber
03-26-04, 06:22 PM
LOL

I almost forgot how hard this stuff is, but I would add that a radius cutter design of Intake seats for the Serdi, and the decrease in size of the Intake, plus, and a +.50 (!.550) Exh valve size ,with a generous margin with rounded radius, helped a lot.
I guess in all this , I have reminded myself how damn hard all this evening engineering is, .. Bottom line was always time and patience and careful checking and preoiling with the valvesprings. They fail, and we all go home early.

ljk

Dubya
03-26-04, 09:46 PM
you two should get a room

ljklaiber
03-26-04, 10:34 PM
Why , When we can get free space in front of your face? Go to Chrome...Dubya!

BeelzeBob
03-27-04, 01:20 AM
Almost forgot about the dykem spray....LOL. I used quite a bit of that trying to get the TBI manifold on the 88 4.5 engine to get good fuel distribution. We would spray it in at wot and kill the engine and look at the flow patterns in the manifold to try and figure out where the fuel was going. It was a true dual level manifold with large throttle body bores, no distribution aids in the throttle body, etc.... nightmare at first.....about an 8 A/F spread on the first casting. Some of my missing hair is due to that. Eventuall got it sorted out though but it always amused me at the thought of some hot rodder taking an 88 4.5 TBI intake and grinding the ridges and troughs in the floor of the manifold smooth....LOL

ShadowLvr400
04-01-04, 08:00 PM
Some delays. Have a stretched timing chain, some major major carbon deposits, etc. Few other thing's we're going to take care of while we're doing all this. So at least another week n a half.

BeelzeBob
04-01-04, 11:48 PM
Some delays. Have a stretched timing chain, some major major carbon deposits, etc. Few other thing's we're going to take care of while we're doing all this. So at least another week n a half.

"Stretched timing chain..."....no way. I have never seen a worn or stretched timing chain on a Northstar engine even with 300K on them. Either something is really wrong or the shop does not know what the timing chains should look like. If you think that the timing chain is stretched I would LOVE to see it. Send me an email or personal message and I will send you my address. That timing drive will outlast the car....LOL

Now you are telling on yourself.....LOL How could there be heavy carbon deposits in an engine that receives frequent exercise...??? LOL Don't waste time and risk problems cleaning the pistons up too much. Just use a little WOT when you get the engine back together...that is the easy and fun way to clean the carbon out.

ShadowLvr400
04-02-04, 10:35 AM
Bob, you haven't seen me drive... Any more WOT, and I wouldn't need a gas pedal, just stick the throttle at full tilt. :P And my exhaust ports are packed pretty bad with carbon. The timing chain was very loose according to the shop, and had a bad link.

As for the compression issues, there's a clear failure of the gasket between frown, what cylinders... Back 2, passenger side. 1-3? Or is that 2-4 in back?

Also, a lot of my hoses are corroded pretty badly, so going to replace a number of them.

Alternator's on its last legs too, had noticed some charging issues before I shut down.

There's a bunch of wiring that's getting cleaned up as well, but that's not for tech issues, but for aesthetic. He already rewired my nitrous lines, and they look SO MUCH better now.

I may be advertising this shop and their machine shop, who's going to look at my stock heads, and possibly do some flow numbers on them.