: How come N* isn't used in more vehicles?



weister42
05-23-06, 02:21 PM
From what I know the N* engine is a high performance engine that's designed to go fast, so how come GM only have the N* option on big heavy sedans? If they have this option on smaller cars I bet there will be way more mechanics getting involved and therefore a lot more aftermarket parts for the N*.

Maybe the 2005 Bonneville with the 275hp N*(same one as mine I'm guessing?) can stirr up the wind. Maybe not.

eldorado1
05-23-06, 02:35 PM
LT5?

Most "performance" people go goo-goo for pushrods... So things like the GTO, corvette, etc will continue to get LSx engines. In addition, there are distinct advantages to pushrod engines in performance applications... less weight, fewer parts, generally a lower CG. I recall reading some of the LSx heads are getting really good flow properties... i.e. close to 4 valve.

I wouldn't be surprised if the northstar was getting closer to being phased out. I think the cross-platform (GXP, whatever else) marketing trend might be evidence of it's death throwes. Going from the "exclusive" cadillac-only to cadillac and pontiac kind of made it less worthy.

I think the new wave will be turbocharged 4 cylinders like the ecotec, which has been proven to 1200 hp. Sportier cars like the saturn sky ( :worship: ) will be getting those... That version will be making 260hp, which is 130hp/L, which would make for a 600hp northstar.

weister42
05-23-06, 04:34 PM
So we might we driving 4 banger Caddies pretty soon? LOL

It's true that the N* has been out for more than 10 years and its technologies are not up to the norms anymore, I guess GM didn't plan this out very well.

eldorado1
05-23-06, 04:47 PM
So we might we driving 4 banger Caddies pretty soon? LOL


If gas hits $4... yep! :alchi:

Tombo47
05-23-06, 05:31 PM
Well then you guiys didnt hear about how caddy will be addign direct injection the the northstar.


Drect injection will put it up to something like 390 HP. Try to find articles online about it. Its been buzzing around as lexus is upping their 4.6 with DI.


I think the Northstar is too legendary to die just yet.

eldorado1
05-23-06, 05:40 PM
hmm... cool?

Post the link when you find it

Tombo47
05-23-06, 07:41 PM
im finding minimal info but people talkign on forums...but theres definately going to be a direct injection HF 3.6l thats used in CTS...and its bumping it to about 285HP at least as it promises 15% increase over the 255....Now if you think that GM will allow their Luxo Liner V8 to put out only 30 more HP than thier V6....you should hit yourself with a brick. Although they did that with the 3800V6-4.5 Motor like morons...that would not stand in todays market.

Cadillac is plannign something big, and i think we should show a little more faith. They are making leaps with their V Series and they already made a direct injection northstar V12 featured in their Cien concept...Seeing as they built a DI N* v12, ill venture to say they already build a DI N* v8.




If they planned on killing the Northstar, they wouldnt publicize it by putting it in hi end cars on lower marques..they are promoting quality..hence why they put those chrome "GM" badges of Excellence on their newer cars. GM is about qulaity these days...and a 320HP motor in the upcomming model years is not goona hold water...so many trust the northstar they know current buyer will trade in their 2005-2006 caddies for the new DI ones, thus giving them a whole shit load of newer vehicles with low miles, to resell at a good price.

THEY ARE GOONA MAKE EVERYONE HAPPY WITH THE NEW DI MOTORS!

EVERYONE WINS!!

94greencaddysls
05-23-06, 07:46 PM
The northstar will be around for awhile as they just revamped it for the new model line. And the Northstar was only caddy specific for a few years, as the Aurora has a smaller version of it.


Edit: Actually I'm thinking the v-series being dropped to 4.4 liter's and have a supercharger thrown on it. I have no idea if they did anything to the non v series car's as drastic as that.

Tombo47
05-23-06, 07:50 PM
oh yea, the CTS with DI is expected to be 290-300 BHP....the 280 3.6L VVT V6 goes to the lacrosse and other hi end GM cars.

Tombo47
05-23-06, 07:51 PM
think theyll elave a Northstar with only 20 more HP than a V6? i think not. In 2008, expect a DI N* producing somewhere around 400HP.

Tombo47
05-23-06, 08:05 PM
and to add even more im willing to bet that the fuel pump will be engine driven which is great maitenence news for higher miles...also stainless steel variable pressure fuel rails...and also no EGR vavle due to VVT....

codewize
05-23-06, 09:09 PM
Absolutely. The Northstar engine has survived mass production for more than 10 years and is one of the best engineered engines ever mass produced. Since they've started putting it in other vehicle it has a little less personal luster but look at the facts.

The thing is pretty much an engineering marvel in the world of internal combustion engines.

I think it will be around for years to come. And if anyone thinks Americans are going to settle for 4 bangers Hah I don't care how much HP they produce, we're not having it. Then we'd all be ricers.


Well then you guiys didnt hear about how caddy will be addign direct injection the the northstar.


Drect injection will put it up to something like 390 HP. Try to find articles online about it. Its been buzzing around as lexus is upping their 4.6 with DI.


I think the Northstar is too legendary to die just yet.

Ranger
05-23-06, 10:16 PM
Cadillac tried a 6 cylinder during the last gas "Crisis". It flopped. For some reason Cadillac drivers want a V8, even if it is a small V8. Cadillacs and V8's are synonimous and seem to be one of those things that are sacred. I just don't think you'll ever see a 4 cylinder Caddy. Just my $0.02

acklac7
05-24-06, 12:00 AM
and a 320HP motor in the upcomming model years is not goona hold water


You can say that again...While I do commend GM for producing a supercharged N* I still am somewhat upset when I look at the competition's V8's...IMO the horsepower "bar" is now set @ 350...There was a post on here a while ago about how 300hp just isn't what it used to be...And I completely agree...The base STS should pack no less than 350hp...With an optional upgrade to 400hp ....And have the V put out about 500....Then I would be happy :D

peteski
05-24-06, 03:24 AM
Someone mentioned that performance people (in USA I assume) love pushrod engines.

While that is probably true, I find it funny that most European exotic sportscars (like Ferrari) use (and have been using for years) engines similar to N*. Except they are usually V-12.

I don't follow F1 but I wonder if those cars use pushrod or OHC engines?

Peteski

parts68
05-24-06, 08:07 AM
Actually the push in GM is for phasing out pushrod motors.
Seems that the 3.8 and LSx are about the only ones left.
They struggled with doing any major rework on the 3.8 as
it had plenty of replacements in that displacement range.
I still cant figure out why the killed the 3.5 Shortstar after
only a few years.

caddydaddy
05-24-06, 08:56 AM
I just don't think you'll ever see a 4 cylinder Caddy. Just my $0.02

So, no rebirth of the Cimmaron??? :crybaby:

eldorado1
05-24-06, 09:15 AM
Someone mentioned that performance people (in USA I assume) love pushrod engines.

While that is probably true, I find it funny that most European exotic sportscars (like Ferrari) use (and have been using for years) engines similar to N*. Except they are usually V-12.

I don't follow F1 but I wonder if those cars use pushrod or OHC engines?

Peteski

American's don't want Ferarri's... They want tractor motors that can uproot a tree at 1500 rpm... :thepan:

F1 is pneumatic I thought?

clarkz71
05-24-06, 02:36 PM
American's don't want Ferarri's... They want tractor motors that can uproot a tree at 1500 rpm... :thepan:

F1 is pneumatic I thought?

What Americans do you hang out with??? I don't know anyone who would take a GTO or Corvette over a Ferrari, $$$$ not being a factor of course. And people who like pushrod V8's better than DOHC V8's are afraid of working on them, to complex for some I guess. Being a Mercedes Benz mechanic for almost 25 years I'm just used to OHC engines and prefer them. And if your into motorcycles the fastest bikes are all DOHC 16V 4 cyl engines. And yes, F1 engines are pneumatic now, previously OHC. Maybe you should have "I love tractor motors" under you name. LOL

eldorado1
05-24-06, 03:01 PM
Maybe you should have "I love tractor motors" under you name. LOL

Note that the above sentiments are not my own.

Take a look at the hotrods and more recently sand rails of today. Not too many northstar/lt5/DOHC engines. They're all SBC's, LS1's, LT1's, the occasional Hemi or straight 6....

I prefer winding each gear to 8500 rpm, and my next buildup will do just that.

The only thing better than a northstar, is a 500hp northstar. :bouncy:

Ranger
05-24-06, 03:04 PM
So, no rebirth of the Cimmaron??? :crybaby:
Lets hope not. I think Cadillac would like everyone to forget the Cimmeron. I can just see them cringe every time the name is mentioned.

clarkz71
05-24-06, 03:49 PM
The only thing better than a northstar, is a 500hp northstar. :bouncy:

I'll second that, and a 4T80E that handles it.:thumbsup:

acklac7
05-25-06, 12:22 AM
What are the benefits of having a push-rod over a DOHC engine? (and vice-versa) ?

Dooman
05-25-06, 08:57 AM
Driving to work and back, I'll take the torque and low rev's every time. The STS seems just right, down low and up top. I don't need more than the 300hp to cruise the highways at 80 or below.. It's great from the toll booths, any more push and I'll be getting tickets..

acklac7
05-25-06, 01:45 PM
Driving to work and back, I'll take the torque and low rev's every time. The STS seems just right, down low and up top. I don't need more than the 300hp to cruise the highways at 80 or below.. It's great from the toll booths, any more push and I'll be getting tickets..

In every gear but third my Eldo (275hp) is nice...But man..that 3rd gear is WEAK..Especially when you floor it @ 37mph expecting to get the 2nd gear burst..And all you get is the "lull" of 3rd gear...Very dissapointing..and extra 50hp (or even an extra 75!) would work wonders :)

JimHare
05-25-06, 04:20 PM
What are the benefits of having a push-rod over a DOHC engine? (and vice-versa) ?

The engineering and/or technical benefits are arguable. The OHC engine is more complex, generally taller and wider than a comparable OHV engine, and is more expensive to produce. It needs timing chains or belts to drive the cams. It's harder to work on the internals of the engine, simply because there are so many other parts in the way.

The pushrod is a simple, tried-and-true design, but has limitations - it's not as air-flow efficient, since most OHV engines have only two valves per cylinder. You have to keep the valves adjusted with tiny little slivers of metal that are .00000000000000005ths of an inch in thickness (I exaggerate a little, but not that much.)

The main reason OHC engines have become more popular is they offer a greater HP & Torque output when compared to a LIKE-DISPLACEMENT engine. European carmakers are taxed on DISPLACEMENT, not HP, so it made sense to design engines that were little tiny buckets, yet still produced good HP.

OHC engines sound nicer - the Italians wrote the song, but it's been sampled now more often than Vanilla Ice and "Under Pressure" by other manufacturers. The Northstar version of "Camshafts Singing at 7,000 rpm" has a nice lilt to it..

clarkz71
05-25-06, 04:57 PM
It needs timing chains or belts to drive the cams.


A pushrod V-8 also has a timing chain, just not as long.

94CaddyConcours
05-25-06, 06:49 PM
What . Being a Mercedes Benz mechanic for almost 25 years I'm just used to OHC engines and prefer them.

Hey if I need help/advice on my M103 would you give me some knowledge

clarkz71
05-25-06, 07:42 PM
Hey if I need help/advice on my M103 would you give me some knowledge

Sure, no problem. What chassis car do you have? 201, 124, or 126.

krimson_cardnal
05-26-06, 04:23 PM
For those who haven't seen it, here's one way to put a NorthStar in a Teeoughta MR2:

http://www.v8mr2.com

sweet! :thumbsup:

codewize
05-29-06, 09:00 AM
That is sweet.


For those who haven't seen it, here's one way to put a NorthStar in a Teeoughta MR2:

http://www.v8mr2.com

sweet! :thumbsup:

weister42
05-29-06, 03:47 PM
So it's possible to swap a N* engine into another car? I want a N* in a 240sx:)

eldorado1
05-29-06, 05:04 PM
So it's possible to swap a N* engine into another car? I want a N* in a 240sx:)

Why not? I've got one in my fiero... Just measure first to make sure it fits. :D

weister42
05-29-06, 05:55 PM
Would you need to transplant all the sensors/hardware/computer or can you just use the motor as-is and buy aftermarket parts for them?

eldorado1
05-29-06, 06:56 PM
sensors and hardware are important to a running engine... :p

I wouldn't touch the stock computer with a 10' pole, but maybe that's just me... GM spends the big bucks to develop their computers to run in all conditions, and I'm running a GM computer. It's not the stock computer, because that one hasn't been hacked, and I doubt it ever will be... but... Now I can mod to my heart's desires. boost, cams, whatever... I haven't decided yet. :D


The great news is you can pick one up in your local junkyard for $50. That doesn't include eprom burners, reprogramming or wiring, but it's a start. If you want more info, let me know...

Oh, I'm also working on a super-top-secret project... Can't say much more than, "it will be cool." :D

Bill Strong
05-31-06, 12:49 PM
Like my v8 mr2?
We will be stuffing anothing into a different chassis. this time using a 4 or 5-speed fiero box and a carbed northstar. keeping it simple as a proof of design study. I am having a company in maryland build a manifold for me. more later...

Bill Strong

krimson_cardnal
06-02-06, 05:58 AM
hey Bill - great website!!! and a really sweet project. keep us all posted. :thumbsup:

94CaddyConcours
06-02-06, 04:42 PM
Sure, no problem. What chassis car do you have? 201, 124, or 126.

Kool. I have the W126. Are you also on any other Benz forums?
Thanks,
Bill Song

clarkz71
06-02-06, 06:16 PM
Kool. I have the W126. Are you also on any other Benz forums?
Thanks,
Bill Song

PM me to discuss this further.