: This sounds dumb but I'm gonna ask anyway - air intake question



weister42
05-08-06, 07:30 PM
So the more air an engine gets the more power it can make? So what if I was to install a high rpm motor with a fan on it and install it before the throttle body? Something like a Dremel that can do 30K rpm and a high-velocity computer CPU fan.


Oh I can already hear someone callin me stupid:rolleyes:

Ranger
05-08-06, 08:33 PM
What you are talking about is basically a turbo charger, but I am sure it will need top be much more robust than what you are discribing.

ELDOminator
05-08-06, 08:50 PM
I'd like to correct you Ranger, and call it a supercharger. My brother and I are working on an "Electronic supercharger" that will hopefully fit in any car... It's only about 50% done. We've hit a hard deadend though. But yes, it should work just like a regular supercharger. Wish me luck and I'll show you how it comes out! :highfive:

eldorado1
05-08-06, 09:33 PM
So the more air an engine gets the more power it can make?

Yep. But compressing air requires more power than a dremel has.

3 starter motors would be a start...

http://www.turbomagazine.com/tech/0406tur_knight02_z.jpg

1993 eldorado green1
05-08-06, 09:56 PM
Yep. But compressing air requires more power than a dremel has.

3 starter motors would be a start...

http://www.turbomagazine.com/tech/0406tur_knight02_z.jpg




yep yep, that air needs to be compressed to do anything and a small cpu fan is not gonna make any difference. you also need to be able to move a large volume of air aswell.

its like this,

if you have a standard sized air hose for an air compressor it usally runs at 100 psi right?

now, if you had a 12 inch diameter air hose that was also holding 100psi and you were trying to fill up a 1000 gallon cylinder, what hose is gonna fill it up faster? obviously the larger the hose the faster it will fill up.

that is why when you increase airflow in a engine usally you would port out the heads, more airflow faster.

same thing with polishing cylinderheads, air moves faster resulting in better flow...

Ranger
05-08-06, 11:18 PM
Yeah, I guess I meant supercharger. I stand corrected, thanks.

eldorado1
05-08-06, 11:59 PM
As a side note, there is a video circulating on the interweb showing a honda dyno run with a gas leafblower attached. +20hp or something. Not bad considering the leaf blower is only a 1hp engine.

ELDOminator
05-09-06, 02:55 PM
Well I'll just spill my beans. I got the intake portion of a Turbocharger, with the compressor fan and all. I'm going to hook up the shaft of the compressor to an electric motor. (Was thinking one starter motor, will be enough. But will overheat quickly. So I think... Router?) Even a router ran at about 26,000 RPM, isn't as much as a quite frequently ran 100,000 RPM turbo. So we're making a gear box to increase the RPMs of the router(s) so create a sufficient PSI. We'll also controll the speed of the RPMs with a speed controller so we don't put too much HP through the Transmission at low RPM (wheel spin!!!) or at shiftpoints. We'll also probably use a second battery to power it all. And we will also try, if needed, adding a 9th fuel injector in the intake manifold, probably near the TB. I hope it works.

dkozloski
05-09-06, 03:19 PM
You're a day late and a dollar short. Look through the old CTS threads. Somebody was working on this a couple years ago.

eldorado1
05-09-06, 03:35 PM
Well I'll just spill my beans. I got the intake portion of a Turbocharger, with the compressor fan and all. I'm going to hook up the shaft of the compressor to an electric motor. (Was thinking one starter motor, will be enough. But will overheat quickly. So I think... Router?) Even a router ran at about 26,000 RPM, isn't as much as a quite frequently ran 100,000 RPM turbo. So we're making a gear box to increase the RPMs of the router(s) so create a sufficient PSI. We'll also controll the speed of the RPMs with a speed controller so we don't put too much HP through the Transmission at low RPM (wheel spin!!!) or at shiftpoints. We'll also probably use a second battery to power it all. And we will also try, if needed, adding a 9th fuel injector in the intake manifold, probably near the TB. I hope it works.

Won't work, or at least not in the sense that you think it will. 20hp maybe. A router is maybe 1/2hp tops. When you gear it up to a higher RPM, there will be less available torque. Take a look at the supercharger the 4.6L cobra's use. At redline at WOT, the supercharger is taking 50hp off the crank. You'd need about 100 routers. I don't recall what starter motors put out, but I think it's 1 or 2 hp, intermittant duty.

http://www.magnusonproducts.com/images/mp112g2.jpg

btw, the whole concept of electric superchargers are ridiculous. Every time you convert one form of energy to another, you lose power. So pretend your heavy duty alternator is taking 50hp from your engine. 50% of it will be converted into electricity, the rest into heat. So now you have 25hp worth of electricity. 1hp = 746 watts, so you have 19kW of electrical power. You feed that to your 10 starter motor electric supercharger. Those also have a 50% efficiency, so you now have 9kW of power turning the supercharger (about 13hp)

See how there's extra parts there who's only use is heating up the air and wasting power? Instead of putting a belt on the engine and using that full 50hp, you're only getting 13hp after you take into account the losses.

Also, for the record - that 50hp required to turn the supercharger... about 40kw... divided by 14V = 2857 Amps. That's how much electrical power you'd need if the motor were 100% efficient.

codewize
05-09-06, 07:12 PM
Wrong again. A supercharger would be mounted after the induction system. What he is describing here is exactly an electronic turbo charger. The only problem I see is the inability to change the boost rate. At idle you engine is going to be provided with way to much air which is why a turbo is designed the way it is.

Induction 101


I'd like to correct you Ranger, and call it a supercharger. My brother and I are working on an "Electronic supercharger" that will hopefully fit in any car... It's only about 50% done. We've hit a hard deadend though. But yes, it should work just like a regular supercharger. Wish me luck and I'll show you how it comes out! :highfive:

codewize
05-09-06, 07:15 PM
Yeah that would be great if you only had a 1000cc engine to boost like the Honda.

Back to V8's


As a side note, there is a video circulating on the interweb showing a honda dyno run with a gas leafblower attached. +20hp or something. Not bad considering the leaf blower is only a 1hp engine.

eldorado1
05-09-06, 08:06 PM
Turbocharger (tûrhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/lprime.gifbhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/omacr.gif-chärhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/lprime.gifjhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/schwa.gifr)
n. A supercharger that uses an exhaust-driven turbine to maintain air-intake pressure especially in high-altitude aircraft

Supercharger (shttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/oomacr.gifhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/prime.gifphttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/schwa.gifr-chärhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/lprime.gifjhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/schwa.gifr)
n. A blower or compressor, usually driven by the engine, for supplying air under high pressure to the cylinders of an internal-combustion engine.

packrat427
05-09-06, 09:22 PM
Here is the link for the gas leaf blower dyno vid.It is pretty good .
http://videos.streetfire.net/player.aspx?fileid=AB544E3B-5DFF-416D-9CFD-A1AD23CA9564

eldorado1
05-09-06, 09:56 PM
heh... guess it was only 10hp with the blower on the honda. Thanks for the link

codewize
05-09-06, 10:18 PM
Umm ok I guess technically I was wrong BUT I am right.


Turbocharger (tûrhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/lprime.gifbhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/omacr.gif-chärhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/lprime.gifjhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/schwa.gifr)
n. A supercharger that uses an exhaust-driven turbine to maintain air-intake pressure especially in high-altitude aircraft

Supercharger (shttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/oomacr.gifhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/prime.gifphttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/schwa.gifr-chärhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/lprime.gifjhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/schwa.gifr)
n. A blower or compressor, usually driven by the engine, for supplying air under high pressure to the cylinders of an internal-combustion engine.

codewize
05-09-06, 10:22 PM
I will say that video is friggin cool.

packrat427
05-09-06, 10:35 PM
The video is cool but I like the fogging of the nitrous in the intake of the leaf blower. It is funny how just a little whiff will make that much differance without being directly injected.

chevelle
05-10-06, 12:50 AM
It takes a lot of power to compress that much air regardless of whether it is a turbo-charger or super-charger arrangement. You are not going to get much at all with an electric motor. The supercharger on the STS-V Supercharged Northstar takes almost 80 HP to drive it at 6500 RPM....lot of starter motors....and a huge battery cable....LOL.

The idea is a good one and it is a fair question to ask but the practicality of the issue is that you are not going to get an electrically driven boost device to give you much at all...if anything at all. Especially from something as small as a router motor or dremel tool.

There have been some examples of electric motors being used to accelerate the turbo wheels in a turbocharger to reduce the throttle lag when a big turbo is used. It was a marginal improvement but the power requirement wasn't much of an issue since it was a very temporary, transient aid, not meant for full time boost.

chevelle
05-10-06, 01:02 AM
Neat video but they are a bit misguided I think. They seem to imply that hopping up the leaf blower with NOS was making it really pump up the power to the engine when , in fact, they were just spraying NOS into the inlet of the car engine. That would happen regardless of whether there was a leaf blower involved or not.

I suspect that when they hit the NOS the way they were spraying it into the atmosphere around the leaf blower the NOS was simply picked up by the air inlet for the leaf blower fan (that grated area of the leaf blower) and just blown thru and into the intake of the engine. And what the leaf blower happened to injest was mostly blown thru it into the exhaust and into the inlet of the engine in the car.If you look at most leaf blowers like that the exhaust from the leaf blower is piped into the high speed air duct coming from the blower fan to quiet and muffle the exhaust sound from the leaf blower motor.

Those results from just fogging NOS into the inlet air are completely believeable. One of the pro-stock teams in NHRA was caught cheating years ago with a hidden NOS bottle that just fogged into the underhood area. That little whiff of NOS that the motor picked up was worth several tenths of a second in the quarter mile. On a prostock car that was huge.

94CaddyConcours
05-12-06, 07:56 PM
I have a electric leaft blower. I dont think it will make a differnt. Before I go that route I would try use compress oxygen.
I rather use the leaft blower to help cool my engine that force induction.

I though asian people would do those weird stuff

parts68
05-13-06, 12:31 AM
thats pretty neat,they doubled the Hondas HP[sic] by adding a leaf blower.
my lugnuts have more torque than your Honda.

On the train of thought of an electric supercharger.
You have to make up the power used for motors somewhere.
Large battery and large alternator require more power to maintain.





As a side note, there is a video circulating on the interweb showing a honda dyno run with a gas leafblower attached. +20hp or something. Not bad considering the leaf blower is only a 1hp engine.