: The Bonneville, has arrived...



Vesicant
01-19-04, 04:35 PM
Ok, here it is... the new Bonneville GXP with the Northstar V8 :coolgleam


http://www.modernracer.com/images/pontiacbonnevillegxpfront1.jpg

http://www.modernracer.com/pontiacbonnevillegxp.html


All i can say is... Mwahahaha....

Elvis
01-19-04, 05:29 PM
Not bad.

Same wheelbase as the Seville, 200 lbs lighter, 1" higher, 1" narrower, 1.5" longer.

Probably $10,000 less.

GM is probably only doing this because the Seville as we know it is in its final year.

2004_SRX_
01-19-04, 08:44 PM
I was hoping for a little more HP considering they've got over 300 out of it, of course with a little different setup. But I guess 275 is good for a Bonneville, and I must say GM cleaned up its looks in the past couple years. All it needs is RWD...

Night Wolf
01-20-04, 03:50 PM
well..... although I heard about this for awhile...so much for the N* being exclusive to Cadillac.... and no, the Auroa dosn't count....

.....I wonder if it will still say "Made exclusivly for Cadillac by General Motors" on the engines..... this is the one thing I don't like about that.... the one thing that made Cadillac soo cool (their own engine) is now being shared....ahhh damn GM bean counters....

tru504187211
01-20-04, 04:22 PM
Very true Night Wolf, isn't this "The Penalty of Leadership" at work?? Check the first page of your owners manual or go here to read it...

http://younggotti.no-ip.org/Cadillac/intro.html

Jacob Hoppe

Blackout
01-20-04, 04:33 PM
I like it better then the GTO

gothicaleigh
01-20-04, 04:43 PM
Definately better than the GTO.

Experiment_626
01-20-04, 05:52 PM
Honestly, this is what the Bonneville should have been right from the beginning. Except for maybe the interior...


I just hope that there are some people out there willing to buy them. You can get a lot of car for the money they are asking.

Blackout
01-20-04, 05:57 PM
With a base price of $36,000 I have a few other cars I would rather get then that. Nice looking car but the price is a little on the extreme side.

Caddy Man
01-21-04, 08:28 PM
why are they sharing the northstar?!? :annoyed:

Vesicant
01-21-04, 08:45 PM
Why is the Chevrolet Trailblazer the same SUV as the GMC Envoy? Why is the Chevrolet Malibu the same as the Saab 9'3? Whyy?


GM and Ford LOVE to share parts... they call it budgeting; so they dont have to make new parts everytime... and i guess GM Wanted a V8 powered Bonneville so they found an engine that would fit and gave them the edge they wanted without having to make a new one...

gothicaleigh
01-21-04, 11:41 PM
Besides, it's not our northstar anymore. We get the re-engineered 320hp versions now. If you're feeling threatened by a Bonneville, it's time to trade up.

Let them have the 10 year old version.

Experiment_626
01-22-04, 11:11 AM
Another big reason they decided to go with the Northstar is that Bonneville production recently moved from Lake Orion Assembly to Detroit Hamtramck Assembly. As that engine is already used heavily on the Devilles and Sevilles at the same plant, it made it a relatively painless addition to drop it in the GXPs as well.

The only V8 at Lake Orion was used in the Aurora, which is no longer.

BeelzeBob
01-23-04, 11:36 PM
Keep in mind that Cadillac has had exclusive use of the Northstar engine for 11 years....time to share...??? Cadillac is putting Vortec engines in the trucks they market.... and they get the new high feature V6 in the CTS.... AND, they are using the Z06 engine in the CTS-V.... so...how can they complain about the Northstar in the Bonneville GXP ???

Cadillac still has exclusive use of the 300 HP L37 version of the engine. Pontiac is "stuck" with the LD8 in the GXP. So...Cadillac's L37 will still say "made exclusively for Cadillac"

The GXP uses the "standard" power rating for the LD8 engine as it is certified under the LD8 engine family umbrella. It makes all of the 275 HP, though, as the GXP has a very low restriction , application specific, exhaust system that was developed specifically for the GXP.

One nice thing about the GXP is that the LD8 engine is coupled with the 3.71 final drive for the first time in a production car. In addition , the shift points have been bumped up to the 6500 RPM points of the L37... The low end grunt of the LD8 engine with the 3.71 final drive really makes the car scoot. The LD8 pulls off the 6500 upshifts perfectly with the low backpressure exhaust. All in all a very very nice package.

The GXP was done by the HPVO group so the chassis tuning, engine integration and calibration , etc. was all spec'ed by the HPVO group as the car is built under the control of the GM Performance Division for Pontiac..as apposed to the normal product engineering team for the Bonneville doing the car.

The amazing thing about the GXP is the grip it has. With the 18 inch wheels and big brakes the car is very very competent and will make a lot of cars look very very silly on a freeway cloveleaf....LOL

I've put about 4300 miles on one of the first GXP production vehicles that went into our test fleet and it is one of my favorite cars of all time....and it will still go in the snow. Something many of the cars that it will outperform in the dry cannot hope to do.

Stoneage_Caddy
01-23-04, 11:52 PM
but is it worth the 36k in your opinoin ? then again 36k doesnt buy too many 4 doors of that caliber (sp?)

outside the price i love the car , always liked the bonneville , esp the present gen ....very nice looking rig

HotRodSaint
01-24-04, 10:02 AM
It looks good. But I'd never pay 35k for a FWD car. Ever.

At least Pontiac is moving in the right direction with RWD cars and good looking cars. Let's see if they can connect the dots and make some cars all of us will enjoy.

At least they didn't call it a G7 or something stupid like that. I want names and not numbers.

BeelzeBob
01-28-04, 09:35 PM
but is it worth the 36k in your opinoin ? then again 36k doesnt buy too many 4 doors of that caliber (sp?)

outside the price i love the car , always liked the bonneville , esp the present gen ....very nice looking rig

I think that the price on the car is very attractive when you look at what the content level is and look at the price of the past version of the SSEi. For an extra 2K you get the Northstar, the 4T80E trans, all the electronics upgrades like PAS, Stabilitrac, the Northstar all speed traction control, the 18 inch wheels and tires, big brakes, the GXP struts and springs which are pretty special in themselves, all the GXP fascias and body molding which are exclusive to the GXP, the low back pressure exhaust (people are spending a grand to get performance exhausts that don't work as well as this one), all the interior trim and seats....etc. The other way of looking at it is that it offers virtually the same performance and comfort of the STS...but at 15K less. The interior stuff is quite nice with the faux carbon fiber trim pieces, special shifter, special seat seating areas, and special dash for the GXP with a 160 speedo that is exclusive to the GXP. Lots of goodies there. Just the sachs struts and straight rate springs would cost 1K to upfit from the aftermarket...and they were developed specifically for the GXP and tuned for that car.

The GXP handles so well that I would put it up against a great many RWD cars. It is truly that good. It sticks like a slot car on freeway loops and can make most cars look silly...and...it still goes in the snow we've been having.

DaveSmed
01-28-04, 09:43 PM
Thats a good question. 160 speedo...... Is it limited?

Stoneage_Caddy
01-28-04, 11:39 PM
putting it that way bob i sure think its well worth the money , i have never looked at what a new ssei stickers for since 1997

BeelzeBob
01-29-04, 02:21 PM
Thats a good question. 160 speedo...... Is it limited?

NO. It has high speed, performance tires on those 18's that were made tuned specifically for the GXP. The GXP gets the oil cooler, also, so there isn't any reason to limit it.

You are not going to see any cars come out of the GM Performance Division or HPVO that are "limited"....LOL

tstach
01-29-04, 02:49 PM
Will we be seeing this in Grand Rapids this weekend at the show?

BeelzeBob
01-29-04, 10:36 PM
Will we be seeing this in Grand Rapids this weekend at the show?
Can't honestly say....I know that Pontiac has several of the first production cars on the show circuit but I do not know if GR is on that list....the GXP has been produced in very limited quantities so far as production goes thru the last phases of tryout for the car and most of the cars produced are still in the GM fleet going thru the final quality audit. The volume production starts in early February so I am not sure if any GXP's are available for the GR show.

DaveSmed
01-30-04, 09:38 PM
You are not going to see any cars come out of the GM Performance Division or HPVO that are "limited"....LOL Excellent. The way it should be..... :yup:

speedyguy
01-31-04, 04:12 PM
Well the price is because of the Northstar. The reason for the price was negotiated by caddy.. They donít want you being able to buy a Pontiac for less that is stock as fast as a Caddy. That would be silly. The management system will also be the same. Yes the same system that is very difficult to modify. Caddilac reluctantly made the move but only if it was to there advantage. So the Northstar was inevitably going to be a playing chip.

Have you seen any widespread adds for the car? NO.

Why? Well it is a Northstar and a Northstar with computer mods can be made very powerful. Keep the price high and the adds low-to nill and yes Cadillac will Let Pontiac have a Northstar.

Once again the amount of excessive redundant computer protection on the Northstar management system indicates Cadillac does not want you to mod this engine at all.

We are much closer to solving this Mistake and this will mean a 400hp Bonneville or Northstar driven car.


Just wait until the GP gets the engine.


Ty

DaveSmed
01-31-04, 08:47 PM
I sat in one. Those things are nice, but the carbon fiber trim pieces looked really fake. Other than that, I like it a lot.

BeelzeBob
02-02-04, 05:18 PM
Why? Well it is a Northstar and a Northstar with computer mods can be made very powerful. Keep the price high and the adds low-to nill and yes Cadillac will Let Pontiac have a Northstar.

Once again the amount of excessive redundant computer protection on the Northstar management system indicates Cadillac does not want you to mod this engine at all.

We are much closer to solving this Mistake and this will mean a 400hp Bonneville or Northstar driven car.



Ty


Cadillac does not want you to modify the computer calibration because GM is responsible for the emission certification and long term compliance in the field...modifications to the system will be detrimental to it's emission performance....so....the intent is to make it so that it is "untouchable"...LOL

I assume with the "promise" of a 400 HP Northstar car you are anticipating some pretty extravagant engine modifications..??? Such as...??? Changing just the computer calibration alone will not give one more ounce of HP. "chips" do not make HP....engine mods that move more air make HP once the calibration has been adjusted accordingly. Without the engine mechanical mods there is little or no power in just the "chip".

BeelzeBob
02-02-04, 05:19 PM
Will we be seeing this in Grand Rapids this weekend at the show?


I'm curious, was there a GXP at the GR show...????

speedyguy
02-03-04, 01:42 AM
Cadillac does not want you to modify the computer calibration because GM is responsible for the emission certification and long term compliance in the field...modifications to the system will be detrimental to it's emission performance....so....the intent is to make it so that it is "untouchable"...LOL

I assume with the "promise" of a 400 HP Northstar car you are anticipating some pretty extravagant engine modifications..??? Such as...??? Changing just the computer calibration alone will not give one more ounce of HP. "chips" do not make HP....engine mods that move more air make HP once the calibration has been adjusted accordingly. Without the engine mechanical mods there is little or no power in just the "chip".

bbob.

Well I canít refer to the other posts you posted regarding this chip but you did mention a few times the Cadillac program was not anymore protected than any other program obd2. Wrong.. bbob you continue to say the same things but they continue through alot of work and spent dollars to be proven wrong.

Nothing-personal bbob but your blanket hater attitude towards work with the caddy obd2 computer has me interested why you have this motive? In the case of the computer program the Cadillac has an additional security system on top of other GM obd2 programs. The other programs "seemed" to meet the same constraints/Protection required by GM so Why the extra protection just on Northstar engines????

Extravagant engine mods??? Common you and I both know the 4.6l can reach quite serious hp without SC or poweradders. I would say 400 is the peak tweakable Hp.

Yes I had also said many moons ago on GM forums and in many other places the Computer mod does not add HP. Yes this is obvious. So why repeat yourself??? The issue is without the computer you cannot use the poweradders or mods required to gain the extra HP. Common you know that and it was not implied otherwise by my statement.


"Why? Well it is a Northstar and a Northstar with computer mods can be made very powerful"

Read it a few times if necessary.. A Northstar with computer mods can be made very powerful. So once the Northstar has the computer modified it can be made more powerful.

Simple really. SoÖ. head, cam, and timing are the basic mods that add the hp after the computer has been made to let the new parameters run within the system.


Bbob I am not sure why you say what you do but either you donít like interest in modifying the computer or you have alternative interests. Or just negative. I mean as stated above you repeatedly attacked the idea on Gm forums and at least one of your comments have found to be 100% incorrect. This has me even more interested in your motive.

So whatís up with all the negativity?? Where do you derive your information because your comments on GM forums regarding the security of the Caddy obd2 computer was wrong.

I derive my information from many different sources. The first was modifying Caddy computers until there software and hardware was stolen. I then found a programmer who has the 96-98 caddies partially done. Then we have the other two companies I work with who are working hard at disassembling this excessive mess if security.

Where do you derive your expertise/knowledge?

Ty

BeelzeBob
02-03-04, 01:46 PM
To answer some of your questions....

I work for GM as an engineer on the Northstar engine and have bit of experience with it dating back to the late 80's when the different concepts for the engine were discussed.

I think you are misquoting me or taking something out of context....I don't recall saying that there was no additional security in the Northstar controller or software. I don't know why I would have said that as I know differently.... you must have misunderstood or I was unclear.

I do NOT have any sort of hatred for modifying things as well as the computer. I just try to point out that "chips" and computer mods ALONE do not make more power. The Northstar engine is correctly calibrated as is from the factory to make the most power possible in the production configuration. With cylinder head mods, cams, compression, etc. it is like any other engine...it will make more power. But, it requires mechanical mods...not just changing fuel and spark values. Many of the posts imply that this is not true...that simply changing the chip will make power.

Exactly where and what have I ever said that was proven wrong??? Let us talk specifics not generalities.

Repeat THIS: Changing the computer calibration alone in the Northstar will not make more power. The correct values are there for max power...I know...I put them there. We didn't leave power on the table or misunderstand the requirements for the engine.

Aftermarket tuners and chip makers tend to think that reprogramming the system will yield power with no changes. On some packages that are deliberately detuned for durability purposes or on boosted applications where the boost control can be overriddent this may be true but on the Northstar the max performance is allowed with the cal in the OEM box. I agree that it is necessary to change the computer calibration to take advantage of any mechanical mods to the engine...but simply changing the computer is not going to get any power.

I don't attack anything on modifying the computer. I just point out these facts to inform others. If you take it as an attack, sorry. Just stating the facts. Aftermarket tuners and chippers feel free to remove any engine protection that is built into the box and software...such as the piston temp protection that dials in richness on extended full throttle operation...in the interest of max power without any regard or testing as to what will happen to the engine. This is not really right as the cal was done that way to protect the engine and without it there can be catostropic failures that then get blamed on the engine.....not the person that mis-calibrated it. That is an area that does cause a bit of rancor on my part. Meddling with something that you don't know what you are meddling with....LOL


Believe me I totally understand the power capabilty of the Northstar engine. I have worked closely with chrfab over the years and understand what they do and how the power is made. The engine can make a LOT of power....but....it is very very hard to take the Northstar in a production car and make it much faster. The HP can be improved but , due to the gearing limitations of the 4T80E, the fact that the automatic is the only option for a trans, the vehicle is going to weigh 4000+ pounds, etc. it is hard to get more TORQUE from the engine to make the car faster. 400 HP is probably achievable with open exhaust, open intake, cams, springs, head porting etc....but...it will be 400 HP at 8000 RPM and the production car will probably be slower than it was originally because the engine will have no low end power to launch it.

The Northstar in a light weight car with a manual trans works well with more cam to make more power. You can drive around the lack of low end torque. Look at the Shelby Series 1 cars. Those are 4.0 liter Aurora engines with the L37 cams in them. Make great power and drives fine...with a manual trans and a 4.11 final drive in a 2600 pound car.... I have an autographed Series 1 jacket given to me by Carol Shelby for the work that I did on that car so that is part of my data base.....

I think we only disagree in the fact that many posts allude to the lack of computer re-calibration as holding the Northstar back in the production car. This is really not the case. Everyone hopes for a magic chip that will give them 50 HP...it doesn't exist with the Northstar. The thing that holds the engine "back" is the fact that it is a 280 cubic inch engine in a 4000+ pound car that is already making over 1 HP per cubic inch from the factory. The low hanging fruit has been picked from the HP tree. I is hard to make the car faster without mods that most people don't want to put up with in day-to-day use. That is all I'm saying.

Vesicant
02-03-04, 07:22 PM
I must say, this is the best engineering ive heard of for a General Motors production engine. Although I suppose it was actually Cadillac making the engine... You guys rock! I drove a 1995 DeVille Concours with the LD8 (only option for that year) and it was very rev happy. Ofcourse the exhaust was worn out a little bit and it sounded very nice (flowed more than stock), but the dynamics, the torque and just the sound of your engine... :worship: .

I recall going down an on ramp, and lightly flooring it... in 4th gear the RPM's just kept going higher and higher and then i let off because i didnt want to blow the engine on a borrowed car! Awesome feel and sound for such a heavy car. I think if anyone has driven a Northstar near its max, they would agree that its very performance tuned from the factory.

speedyguy
02-04-04, 01:52 AM
To answer some of your questions....

I work for GM as an engineer on the Northstar engine and have bit of experience with it dating back to the late 80's when the different concepts for the engine were discussed.

I think you are misquoting me or taking something out of context....I don't recall saying that there was no additional security in the Northstar controller or software. I don't know why I would have said that as I know differently.... you must have misunderstood or I was unclear.

I do NOT have any sort of hatred for modifying things as well as the computer. I just try to point out that "chips" and computer mods ALONE do not make more power. The Northstar engine is correctly calibrated as is from the factory to make the most power possible in the production configuration. With cylinder head mods, cams, compression, etc. it is like any other engine...it will make more power. But, it requires mechanical mods...not just changing fuel and spark values. Many of the posts imply that this is not true...that simply changing the chip will make power.

Exactly where and what have I ever said that was proven wrong??? Let us talk specifics not generalities.

Repeat THIS: Changing the computer calibration alone in the Northstar will not make more power. The correct values are there for max power...I know...I put them there. We didn't leave power on the table or misunderstand the requirements for the engine.

Aftermarket tuners and chip makers tend to think that reprogramming the system will yield power with no changes. On some packages that are deliberately detuned for durability purposes or on boosted applications where the boost control can be overriddent this may be true but on the Northstar the max performance is allowed with the cal in the OEM box. I agree that it is necessary to change the computer calibration to take advantage of any mechanical mods to the engine...but simply changing the computer is not going to get any power.

I don't attack anything on modifying the computer. I just point out these facts to inform others. If you take it as an attack, sorry. Just stating the facts. Aftermarket tuners and chippers feel free to remove any engine protection that is built into the box and software...such as the piston temp protection that dials in richness on extended full throttle operation...in the interest of max power without any regard or testing as to what will happen to the engine. This is not really right as the cal was done that way to protect the engine and without it there can be catostropic failures that then get blamed on the engine.....not the person that mis-calibrated it. That is an area that does cause a bit of rancor on my part. Meddling with something that you don't know what you are meddling with....LOL


Believe me I totally understand the power capabilty of the Northstar engine. I have worked closely with chrfab over the years and understand what they do and how the power is made. The engine can make a LOT of power....but....it is very very hard to take the Northstar in a production car and make it much faster. The HP can be improved but , due to the gearing limitations of the 4T80E, the fact that the automatic is the only option for a trans, the vehicle is going to weigh 4000+ pounds, etc. it is hard to get more TORQUE from the engine to make the car faster. 400 HP is probably achievable with open exhaust, open intake, cams, springs, head porting etc....but...it will be 400 HP at 8000 RPM and the production car will probably be slower than it was originally because the engine will have no low end power to launch it.

The Northstar in a light weight car with a manual trans works well with more cam to make more power. You can drive around the lack of low end torque. Look at the Shelby Series 1 cars. Those are 4.0 liter Aurora engines with the L37 cams in them. Make great power and drives fine...with a manual trans and a 4.11 final drive in a 2600 pound car.... I have an autographed Series 1 jacket given to me by Carol Shelby for the work that I did on that car so that is part of my data base.....

I think we only disagree in the fact that many posts allude to the lack of computer re-calibration as holding the Northstar back in the production car. This is really not the case. Everyone hopes for a magic chip that will give them 50 HP...it doesn't exist with the Northstar. The thing that holds the engine "back" is the fact that it is a 280 cubic inch engine in a 4000+ pound car that is already making over 1 HP per cubic inch from the factory. The low hanging fruit has been picked from the HP tree. I is hard to make the car faster without mods that most people don't want to put up with in day-to-day use. That is all I'm saying.


Context is the issue. Did I say this chip would gain you HP?????

You implied I did and then proceeded to criticize the point with my name on it.

So did I say this??

No I didnít.

Either you are senile or you intended to shift context to discredit the option of a computer mod?.

??????

Never said Production car!!!!!

Said the potential of the N* is much greater. GM seems to avoid power adders that are not "lame" roots style SC's. An engine like the Northstar is just begging to have a turbo slapped on.

As for computer changes.

"such as the piston temp protection that dials in richness on extended full throttle operation...in the interest of max power without any regard or testing as to what will happen to the engine. This is not really right as the cal was done that way to protect the engine and without it there can be catastrophic failures that then get blamed on the engine.....not the person that miss-calibrated it." (I fixed a few spelling errors for ya.)

lol Yes we could also through away the temp control and mix up the firing order .....if we were idiots. Obviously this comment is not derived from a happy place..??? Again it is obvious that we do not want to change the computer with a big hammer and a swig of beer. Actually it requires a very smart tech to make this happen and your final jab points out what your issue seems to be.

If I am correct you worked on the engine. So far alot of text no proof.. But lets say you did. You would be fairly guarded of your work and its merit as it stands. No one likes to have there painting repainted.

Understood.

No matter what the aftermarket person wants to do to there N* they will need to use a computer option that is modified. Very simple. So this means when the computer option is available we can take the next step and utilize the options available. Too bad Gm didnít let you guys use a turbo. That way instead of defending the engine you could be gloating about its versatility.

I am sure Shelby did not use a stock GM computer (unmodified) for his car.

bboob I agree lets not go over this anymore because really its getting silly and including GM forums I have ..We have done this 4 times...?.



Ty

BeelzeBob
02-04-04, 12:05 PM
Context is the issue. Did I say this chip would gain you HP?????

You implied I did and then proceeded to criticize the point with my name on it.

So did I say this??

No I didnít.

Either you are senile or you intended to shift context to discredit the option of a computer mod?.

??????

Never said Production car!!!!!

Said the potential of the N* is much greater. GM seems to avoid power adders that are not "lame" roots style SC's. An engine like the Northstar is just begging to have a turbo slapped on.

As for computer changes.

"such as the piston temp protection that dials in richness on extended full throttle operation...in the interest of max power without any regard or testing as to what will happen to the engine. This is not really right as the cal was done that way to protect the engine and without it there can be catastrophic failures that then get blamed on the engine.....not the person that miss-calibrated it." (I fixed a few spelling errors for ya.)

lol Yes we could also through away the temp control and mix up the firing order .....if we were idiots. Obviously this comment is not derived from a happy place..??? Again it is obvious that we do not want to change the computer with a big hammer and a swig of beer. Actually it requires a very smart tech to make this happen and your final jab points out what your issue seems to be.

If I am correct you worked on the engine. So far alot of text no proof.. But lets say you did. You would be fairly guarded of your work and its merit as it stands. No one likes to have there painting repainted.

Understood.

No matter what the aftermarket person wants to do to there N* they will need to use a computer option that is modified. Very simple. So this means when the computer option is available we can take the next step and utilize the options available. Too bad Gm didnít let you guys use a turbo. That way instead of defending the engine you could be gloating about its versatility.

I am sure Shelby did not use a stock GM computer (unmodified) for his car.

bboob I agree lets not go over this anymore because really its getting silly and including GM forums I have ..We have done this 4 times...?.



Ty
Speedy......

.....I must point out a quote you made earlier in this exchange that certainly could be taken to mean you were talking about more power in the production car.... "We are much closer to solving this Mistake and this will mean a 400hp Bonneville or Northstar driven car. ' What were you talking about, then if it isn't a production car??

Sorry about the mis-spelling and thank you for correcting me. I enter so much into this forum in the interest of helping with the correct info that I rarely if ever proof read so some typos slip through.....kind of like when you then say "...lol Yes we could also through away the temp control and mix up the firing order ......" You meant "throw" away the temp control, right....LOL just kidding here....you know the deal about people living in glass houses....LOL

I think that most all of your posts indicate that changing the "chip" will net a lot of power....yes. Unless you specify otherwise (which is the question I asked that got this started) then one would naturally assume that.

Yes, by the way, I AM getting senile and I resemble that.....LOL...fortunately I can't seem to remember to worry about it too much....

No, I am not overly protective of our "canvas" (OK...I am....) but I do understand what it will and won't do pretty well. I find that most all of the simple aftermarket "chips" and add-ons do little or nothing for power (and we have tried a lot of them....just for our amusement...) and I hate to see people being mislead.

If you ARE talking about applications of the Northstar outside the prodcution car why on earth would you bother to mess with the production controller...??? The only reason in my mind to try and hack into the production controller is to modify the production car. The Northstar engine is ripe for using an aftermarket controller and there are many of them that work on it with little or no developement necessary. The 93-99 Northstar crank sensors and direct fire coil pack operate as a separate, standalone entity that actually serves as the basis for a lot of the aftermarket control systems. DFI, Electromotive, Holley, to name a few, use the Northstar crank sensors and reluctor wheel pattern and the direct fire coil pack as is. The coil pack electronics send a user friendly reference signal to a PCM that is pretty universally accepted. If the desire is to mod the motor for an aftermarket appplication outside the production car use an aftermarket controller. Much easier to use and the cal and software is readily accessible. That is what the guys at chrfab use and it works well.

In the aftermarket "chips" I have reviewed over the years I have seen MANY situations where the chipper eliminated or bypassed some important element of engine protection. In many cases, they simply turn off the knock control and then put a label on the chip saying "premium fuel required"....duh....if the owner used good gas they would get the same results without the chip.

"lame sc's".......LOL LOL. Stop by Warren, Michigan and I'll show you a Northstar with a "lame" supercharger on it....LOL What's so lame about superchargers?? Back to the idea that we have a relatively small displacement engine in a relatively heavy production car....a supercharger provides the perfect air flow characteristics and response curves to make a little engine act like a big engine in terms of responsiveness and torque. There is still and issue with turbo's and the heat that they suck up when it is time to coldstart on the FTP and light the catalyst fast. With a heavy luxury car to make meet the most sstringent LEV and SLEV standards (something the aftermarket tuners and chippers don't even understand....) it is next to impossible with a turbo in the exhaust. A supercharger does not tear up the exhaust side of the emission equation which is another reason that they are very popular. BTW...in case you had not noticed, there are a LOT of manufacturers that recognize the advantages of "lame" superchargers and are using them on their production engines.

Yes, we are down to arguing over minor points taken out of context so I think we should just agree to disagree. I think, seriously, that we are a lot closer to agreeing than you realize, and the "point" now is just defending our individual turf. Stop by and I'll buy you a beer....peace.

tstach
02-04-04, 01:03 PM
Sorry for the delay, but, no, there was not one there. Not too much at that show.

BeelzeBob
02-04-04, 01:46 PM
Sorry for the delay, but, no, there was not one there. Not too much at that show.

Yea, I talked to the Pontiac marketing person this morning (little late returning my call.....LOL) and she confirmed that there just wasn't an available car for that show. There are 60 or more "auto shows" around the country in major cities and it is just impossible to have a factory presence at each of them. Just the major 12 or 13 shows are supported by the factory... most of the local or smaller shows like GR are just local zone and dealer supported so that is why there was no GXP there...they are a few days away from being shipped to commerce....

speedyguy
02-04-04, 09:44 PM
Bbob,

For the sake of those who may read with concern the actual people doing the computer are very meticulous and there will be no hack and grind technology used.

Yes there is a easy misunderstanding with the comment I made about a 400hp Bonneville. It is not chip only solution for sure. LOL I am much the same when it comes to "fuzzy" math. I often warn about modifications to cars with products that sell HP snake oil.

I am young at heart Bbbob but I still remember the saying "finer dan frog hair split four ways".

Main reason for the computer is the number of people with stock Cadillacís who want to remove the top speed limiter. I have quite a few people who want it for that reason alone. Many also want to do silly things like add Nitrous in extreme amounts. lol fun stuff.

I have watched the CSC progress and a hyper version of that would reap some good HP for the person who must tinker.

Personally I like the Turbo. We are working with a fellow who has the 3.4l Turbo we will soon offer with the computer mod. HP tops out at 400 crank hp. The number is conservative but I donít want to be off too far.

I plan to use the obd1 caddy computer for my Pontiac Bonneville swap. This way it will meld nicely with the 92-95 Bonneville.

I might take you up on that beer.

Ty

BeelzeBob
02-05-04, 01:38 AM
Bbob,

For the sake of those who may read with concern the actual people doing the computer are very meticulous and there will be no hack and grind technology used.

Yes there is a easy misunderstanding with the comment I made about a 400hp Bonneville. It is not chip only solution for sure. LOL I am much the same when it comes to "fuzzy" math. I often warn about modifications to cars with products that sell HP snake oil.

I am young at heart Bbbob but I still remember the saying "finer dan frog hair split four ways".

Main reason for the computer is the number of people with stock Cadillacís who want to remove the top speed limiter. I have quite a few people who want it for that reason alone. Many also want to do silly things like add Nitrous in extreme amounts. lol fun stuff.

I have watched the CSC progress and a hyper version of that would reap some good HP for the person who must tinker.

Personally I like the Turbo. We are working with a fellow who has the 3.4l Turbo we will soon offer with the computer mod. HP tops out at 400 crank hp. The number is conservative but I donít want to be off too far.

I plan to use the obd1 caddy computer for my Pontiac Bonneville swap. This way it will meld nicely with the 92-95 Bonneville.

I might take you up on that beer.

Ty


Yea, I almost mentioned in the last post that one of the things that an aftermarket chip can do is to remove the speedlimiter if so desired.

The turbo charged cars that allow electronic control of the boost are an obvious exception to the "no HP in a chip" rule....LOL... There is a LOT of HP in overriding the factory boost limitations. I think that is also where a lot of the mystique of the aftermarket chips comes from.

Same with diesels where the HP rating is determined by the amount of fuel injected. The unfortunate part is that the OEM sets the power level depending on the durability requirements of the engine and overriding the fuel limitations seriously undermines the durability of the engine. Not that the OEM engineers didn't know how to put the extra fuel in...it was left out on purpose.

The setup that I like is a supercharger (for that low end torque and instant throttle response) that is fed by a turbo....now THAT setup will make some serious power with little compromise in driveability either way. The turbo can be sized for maximum power with little or no regard for low end response (the supercharger takes care of that) and the turbo boost actually starts to drive the supercharger (it is is a roots type) so that less and less power is taken away from the engine by the parasitic loss of the supercharger drive.

Stoneage_Caddy
02-05-04, 10:28 AM
"The setup that I like is a supercharger (for that low end torque and
instant throttle response) that is fed by a turbo...."

somebodys been around a 8v92tta detroit ......

speedyguy
02-05-04, 10:43 AM
I know of one 3.8l doing that.

The problem is the roots style SC is not going to fit very well under the hood.

I would have to make a hood as well. hmmmmmm Ram air?



Ty

BeelzeBob
02-05-04, 03:21 PM
"The setup that I like is a supercharger (for that low end torque and
instant throttle response) that is fed by a turbo...."

somebodys been around a 8v92tta detroit ......


Actually, there are a number of gas engines doing this setup for a maximum performance setup.......it really does work... Lots of plumbing and intercoolers but boy does it move the air into the engine.

Stoneage_Caddy
02-06-04, 01:32 PM
really ? i suppose there all devlopment hotrods ?

im starting to get jelous bob dude , your job kicks ass