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Can A Pro Tuning Shop Withhold Info About Your STS-V?

8K views 47 replies 16 participants last post by  Garmibohath 
G
#1 · (Edited by Moderator)
I bought an 2006 STS-V from a guy in Fenton, Michigan that had a sick LC3 under the hood. This guy.....let's call him Mr. Sh!tbag.......knew it was sick because Livernois Motorsport told him it was sick after a dyno checkup. They offered to investigate the problem but Mr. Sh!tbag decided to put it on Craigslist and instead and dump it on.......well me.

This was a D3 Stage 2 that seemed to be missing 100 RWHP but taking it f/ for a drive still had plenty of go to still impress a potential buyer. The beauty of this scam was you had to put it on a dyno to detect the problem. Mr. SB told me he never had it on a dynometer. But Mr. SB messed up when he left the Livernoise receipt in the glovebox that I discovered a few days later.

When I called Livernoise to get dyno info on "my" car I pretended to be Mr. SB but when they discovered I was a new owner they shutdown all communication w/ me. Problem was it was too late......the guy on the phone remembered the car and gave me the bad RWHP numbers. Livernoise proceeded to tell me "it sucks to be you" but they would release no further info on the dyno pulls they did f/ for Mr. SB because it was confidential information. Anyone else heard of a similar situation?
 
#3 · (Edited)
You're out of luck. The private business has no obligation to release a previous owner's information, the car is way out of GM warranty (which would have been voided anyway) and a private vehicle seller has no obligation to provide a "warranty", either written or implied.

I'm not sure that, instead of pretending to be the original owner, you could have gotten what little info you did receive. When the business realized that you misrepresented yourself it was wise on their part to cease conversation.

IF the car is/was subject to federal emissions controls and if it will not now pass an emissions test due to the "tune", then selling it may have been fraudulent on the part of the seller.

As always, Caveat Emptor.

EDIT: It appears, from Post #4, the company in question is a somewhat shady operation. Producing a captive audience is pretty scummy. If you avail yourself of their "product" do they ask you so sign an exclusive rights statement to further work by them ?

EDIT: Livernois is no small shadetree outfit .............. https://www.google.com/search?q=livernois+motorsports&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8
 
#4 · (Edited by Moderator)
Yes[,] I figured out the issue but am keeping that close to my vest until my lawyer's work is complete.

It gets worse[. N]ot only does Livernois Motorsports have a company policy that protects sh!tbag car owners who dump bad cars on on ebay or Craigslist but they also have a policy of puting a software "lock" on any car they tune which prevents you from going elsewhere to get dyno work done.

Despite the fact they know I'm in a very bad situation they will not let me get my car worked on (tuned) where I live.

I live 250 miles from Livernois Motorsports.

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You're out of luck. The private business has no obligation to release a previous owner's information, the car is way out of GM warranty (which would have been voided anyway) and a private seller has no obligation to provide a "warranty", either written or implied.

I'm not sure that, instead of pretending to be the original owner, you could have gotten what little info you did receive. When the business realized that you misrepresented yourself it was wise on their part to cease conversation.

IF the car is/was subject to federal emissions controls and if it will not now pass an emissions test due to the "tune", then selling it may have been fraudulent on the part of the seller.

As always, Caveat Emptor.

EDIT: It appears, from Post #4, the company in question is a somewhat shady operation. Producing a captive audience is pretty scummy. If you avail yourself of their "product" do they ask you so sign an exclusive rights statement to further work by them ?
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When I first called I had no idea I had just bought a sick STS-V. As a matter of fact I was calling [for] the dyno RWHP because I was certain I would be given a BIG number more in line w/ D3 claims. I simply said "I have a receipt here w/ a work order number... can you pull up the dyno pull numbers"?

Pretending may not have been the correct word to use. I had the receipt w/ the work order number in the upper right hand corner from I car I owned, they asked [for] it and I and gave them what they wanted. Livernois never asked "hey, before we talk.....is this your reciept?". I certainly had no obligation "written or implied" to tell Livernois I had a receipt I found in my glovebox of a car I just purchased.

When they gave me this sick RWHP value I was certain they must be mistaken and told them so. Then the guy on the other end reminded me "I" was told all this when the work was done in 2013. I said "wait a minute I'm was the new owner". I never imagined they would shut down the conversation at that point.
 
#7 ·
Thanks for the observation. Multiple usernames are not allowed by CF Rules and Guidelines.

BYEBYEAMG
has been deleted from the database and the few posts remain as "Guest". PapaV, the original username with 82 posts, remains.

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#9 ·
Not sure if d3 has the parts to even gain 100whp. Had many issued with livernois. Just go else where. Once they wreck your shit they say o well. The clowns that sell you parts are just that clowns. The guy who runs the front office talked my brother into extended pushrods after they sold him on a head job on his g8. He said wouldnt that be bad to mill the heads then use those... He said nope we know how to build 6.0s. He picked up his car and was told the metal rattling noise was normal LS noisy drivetrain. After 7000$ in upgrades the motor made it 500miles. He brought it to them 3 times during that time frame and Livernois said **** you not our issue. **** that place I would never recommend anyone to bring anything to them. They are the new D3... We expanded out facilities so **** off haha
 
#10 ·
I don't see how any company can legally lock up your car so that you cannot take it anyplace else to work on it, that will run afoul of federal laws I believe.
Protect their Tune data sure, but they cannot legally make it impossible for another company to run make a tune for the car?...
 
#13 · (Edited by Moderator)
I find it unfathomable also[.] I never agreed [for] Livernois to put a lock on my car's software[,] so how can they get away w/ it? It's my car now[,] not Mr. Sh!tbag's. My lawyer in MI has beat this law on other consumer products...especially the tune lock B-sh!t.

Livernois offered [for[]me to drive to Dearborn Hts, MI where they would strip off there tune code and then I could push it to a local Caddy Dealership to pay [for] a stock software reboot. My car won't even start let alone run w/ the stock software. So I would be left w/ having to ship the car back to a tuner in Ohio and have him start from scratch.

Livernois was correct[,] it does suck to be me.
 
#18 · (Edited by Moderator)
That's what the problem turned out to be. I solved my problem by installing a set of your headers. Livernois never knew what the problem was just that the engine was underperforming.......BIG TIME.

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They locked the tune on my V too. The engine light came on 1 week after they tuned my car and when I told them about it they said that I had to pay 300 to retune it and when I took it to the dealer to get it fixed they said that the computer was locked and they couldn't return it to stock. Give timmy or jesse @ wait4meperformance they'll take care of you.
What can Wait4me do? They cannot bypass the tune lock.
 
#28 ·
This is not uncommon with many "tuner" shops. The problem is not Livernois, it is the change in car ownership (and the car being wounded). As a matter of fact, I would be sure to have GM examine the ECU on any car I was going to purchase. A "bad" tune can destroy an engine very quickly.
 
#32 · (Edited)
I can't imagine that locking a customer's ECU is common practice at Livernois or any tuner. It might be, but it is weird enough to make me wonder if Livernois has a story with the previous owner.
Regarding post #4: the "pretending" approach may have soured your potential relationship with Livernois.
I'm sorry this happened to you. I hope you get your car sorted out.
 
#35 ·
Actually as I have found out it is NOT UNCOMMON f/tuners to put a lock on their tunes.
Livernois is one of them.
I asked them why and was told they tweek hundreds of different parameters and don't want other tuners messing with their tunes and messing your car up as a result.
They said nothing about intellectual property.
Ther are several members here who have commented and don't have an issue w/ any performance shop locking a customer ECU.
The fact is, assuming your car is properly set up on the dyno, there only TWO ENGINE TUNING PARAMETERS that will determine your cars RWHP output........timing and air:fuel ratio.....that's it.
Not hundreds of adjustments, not a dozen.......TWO.
Any tuner that tells you differently is selling you something other than a proper tune.
In other words there is no research conducted or intellectual property to be obtained.
If there was Livernois would be advertising their Patented Pro Tune.
They don't.
So you have to ask yourself......why put an ECU lock on a car that prevents the owner from the full use of his legally owned property?
My take is that it is simply to create a captive client base.
 
#36 ·
There is a lot more to a "tune" than tweaking timing and fuel at full throttle. Transmission settings, variable cam settings, and rev limits are just a tiny fraction of what gets changed when I tune an STS-V. LS cars with big cams require a ton of work to achieve a stable idle and other driveability attributes.

Maybe Livernois is trying to create a "captive client base" but they would have a legit reason to fear other tuners adjusting things and then spreading rumors that the Livernois tune sucks after they screw it up.
 
#42 ·
I never asked if they would do it free of charge......they just said the only way they would allow me to have full ownership of my property was they would delete their tune and then I could get a my ECU re flashed back stock.
I'm not sure its worth it now....especially since my car won't run w/ a stock tune.
 
#43 · (Edited by Moderator)
How modified is your car that it will not run with a stock tune to at least limp home or someplace, I am not familiar with D3 stage2...?
If they are willing to unlock it then by all means take the escape route and get yourself free of them!
  1. Buy HP Tuners.
  2. Get a base tune file for your mods from TimmyC or the other tuners here.
  3. Have Livernois remove their tune and unlock the ecu.
  4. Plug HPTuners in and upload the safe file based on your mods.
  5. drive car to another shop to final tweaking and detailed tuning.

Yes it is Expensive, but HPtuners is worth the $ to have if you have a modded car.
 
#45 ·
just to post on this I live in Dearborn heights mi and about 2 blocks from livernois and I would never take anything there lol. theya re no one for blowing cars up and doing half ass work and saying "o well". If you in Michigan I go to some close buddies at BCP(boos controlled performance) in Livonia solid and great staff.
 
#48 ·
No doubt, perhaps you will not look "cool" yet I believe it's stunningly better at 'reclaiming a piece of the street' than certain (spam link removed) I've seen on the grounds that it's anything but a bigger front facing space of yellow to approaching cadgers. It gets seen I can advise you, thus what that is possibly not generally in a positive manner...
 
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