: STS 2005: Reactions



fallenstarseven
01-18-04, 06:21 PM
These are my feelings:

Overall, a big disappointment. Of the previous vehicles adopting the Art+Science theme, the XLR is the most successful and the SRX the least successful. To keep the momentum, Cadillac should have carried on with what they did with the show cars--give us different iterations or flavors of the overall design language. The STS clearly fails to take the language another step and doesn't even apply it as well as the CTS, the first vehicle out the door with the new look.

It's obvious to me that Lutz (or someone) watered down the look.

The headlight treatment is the weakest element. The lights taper from bottom to top, giving it a static feel that might have been ok on the SRX, which as an SUV needs to look solid and safe. The STS, however, needs to look nimble, rakish, fast, and luxurious. Something a biit narrower that canted inward and tapered from top to bottom, like the Sixteen's headlights, would have been much more distinctive.

The grill doesn't add much to the package--where are some of the lovely grills we saw on the show cars? It's far too small. This car will look even blander with a mesh V-series grill.

The body shape, at least what we've been able to see from the spy shots and the one official photo, neither attempts to apply the design language on a softer overall shape, nor carriers it in the opposite direction, progressing with the knife-edge direction it was first shown with. Instead, it looks tamped down and cheap. This looks like the product of one of GM's factories of old, not the product of fresh thinking.

The old Seville had its own presence, a certain elegance. The new STS looks bland and even a little narrow--it visually doesn't look much larger than the CTS, at least in these photos. There's nothing here to appeal to a BMW or Mercedes or even Lexus driver.

My bottom line: Huge missed opportunity at a very very important moment in the Cadillac comeback. No wonder they didn't show it at Detroit--they knew they blew it.

Vesicant
01-18-04, 06:37 PM
Good opinion, but being me... I tend to take a "rice racer" attitude to it, I personally think it looks close to the beefed up M5 from BMW. IF you lowered the car and put some on nice sideskirts, front airdam on it, (and the wheels look perfect as they are)... like they've done with the M5; it would look simply dangerious! And in my opinion, even the un-modifyed one looks dangerious. Then again, thats me... I think they are using variations of the edge design but just not drastically changing the look Much.

Looks like a BMW Killer to me!

gothicaleigh
01-19-04, 01:04 AM
We'll see how much they 'blew it' when it is released. I've heard some very critical comments on this car and it has not even been released yet! I remember much the same thing floating about the internet when the CTS was released and look how well that has done.

I don't like the idea of Cadillac softening the Art&Science look(yes, I loved the Sixteen, but I believe the sharp creases will give the company a better sense of identity by contrasting their competitors' typically round designs), but I will reserve judgement until I can see one in person. Some cars need to be seen in the real world to appreciate their presence.

2004_SRX_
01-19-04, 07:49 PM
I honestly don't understand how people, especially Cadillac fans, can be upset with the '05 STS. I can see you are the slightest bit disappointed because it was toned down, like you said, probably by Lutz. But the Seville was never the best looking Caddy, and I assume they are keeping it that way with its replacement. If you like the SRX, you should like this. I think they share many lines and though they don't look as good on the sedan as on the SUV, it is still very attractive. Like gothicaleigh, I will reserve my definite judgment untill I see this thing in person. Speaking of that, I guess it won't make any show appearances this year?

gothicaleigh
01-19-04, 08:52 PM
It was going to be introduced in New York, or has that changed?

Brett
01-19-04, 09:30 PM
While Im not totally sold on it. I think the toned down look fits to the target demographic. Wow em with the CTS, then as they age and become more conservative give them the STS. It seems like a decent plan, assuming thats what Cadillac was thinking

gothicaleigh
01-20-04, 12:07 AM
Yeah, I agree that they're 'playing it safe' with the STS design so they don't alienate those who may be put off by the CTS' polarizing looks (I thank the automotive press for that term, it describes the car perfectly).

banstyle
01-20-04, 12:56 AM
I'm going to reserve judgement in lieu of more detailed pictures and the ability to view the car in-person. When it comes out this fall, then I'll know how I feel, especially as a Seville afficianado.

BeelzeBob
01-20-04, 08:54 AM
This always happens. I hated the Camaro when it first came around in 1993. I thought it looked just like a Geo Storm. Take a look at a place you'd never expect this type of talk - www.corvetteforum.com - 90% of the Corvette enthusiasts grumbled about the looks of the C5.. Look at how many are grumbling about the looks of the C6... This is normal behavior...

Playdrv4me
01-20-04, 12:05 PM
I dunno, quite a few so far seem to agree on the design faux pas (sp?) here, Im actually surprised a previous lurker or new user made the effort to actually sign up and post just for this purpose. I agree however we need to wait to see it in person before passing full judgement. I will say this however guys, I liked the last two STS's from the FIRST moment I saw them. There was never a watering down and getting used to it period for me, they were just awesome right from the start. So I think maybe I had my expectations set a little too high for the new one. Like Gothicaleigh said... well wait and see what the sales numbers reveal... (cadillac could you give us a damn ass shot somewhere please).

fallenstarseven
01-25-04, 01:51 AM
I liked the CTS and all of the show cars from the moment I saw them. I currently drive a BMW and my spouse and I have been excited about what's happening at Cadillac. I loved the previous Seville as the only distinguished design in the entire Cadillac portfolio for the past decade or so. I have been monitoring this forum and various other sources for any whisper of what the new STS would look like.

And as I've stated, it's just plain disappointing. I will be glad if new pictures prove me wrong, but I can tell from the spy shots and the one undisguised photo that that is not likely.

It will be shameful if GM develops week knees and fails to live up to the promise that the Evoq, Image, Vizon, and the new models have all conveyed. Wimping out in a misguided effort to "keep the old crowd happy" means we'll get cars from Cadillac that are neither fish nor fowl. Have some faith in your customers--if you have faith in your new design language and your vision for Cadillac, you should have faith that your customers will understand and follow you there.

The one thing I can say about Chris Bangle, the BMW design chief, is that he is sticking to his guns on the new design direction-even though he's taken harsh criticixm for it. The big difference is, his new design theme is incoherent and downright ugly, and is cheapening his band, while the Cadillac theme enhances the Cadillac brand. Too bad Cadillac seems to be losing the kind of guts that brought us the show cars, the CTS, and the Sixteen.

ShadowLvr400
01-25-04, 03:05 AM
Still hate the CTS looks, and the STS, even a watered down mimic, is still a mimic of the CTS. Personally, I think whichever engineer designed this current Cadillac look.... Should be castrated with fishing line as they are sodomized by Mike Tyson, in front of their grandparents. But, that's my opinion.
The drivetrain may be fun though. AWD with a V8 pushing it could be a real blast.

Pete03Z06
01-25-04, 01:11 PM
I disagree about the design of Cadillac's new generation being the wrong way to go. If they didn't take some action as such and produce something that a LOT of people really like, they would continue to lose and lose and lose market share with boring products. Cadillac's new stuff (with the exception of this new STS, not sure about it) is just what the company needed :coolgleam

Cadillacboy
02-02-04, 06:04 PM
I prefer '04 over '05 ,but it doesn't mean that I don't like the design ,however I wish front view was similar to Cadillac Sixteen not CTS .And also Seville models have always looked different to other Cadillac models but this new design brings this mothing .
For instance:
When you look at the current rear or front of the STS , you can see a difference on the headlamps as well as taillights.So to say it's staring you at the face because of horizontal shape

Caddy Man
02-04-04, 11:46 AM
i kno cadillac is using a deisgn theme with all their cars...but all of the cars are turnin out exactly the same!!! same lookin grill, same ''stacked'' healights...this is why i dont want the DTS to change right now. its just gonna look like a variation of the others. i think the new sts is alright but it looks to much like a cts, i abolsultly loved the past 2 STS generations (i think it was 93-97 and then 98-03?)

2004_SRX_
02-04-04, 05:27 PM
I can see what you mean about all the Cadillacs looking too similar, but to say the '05 STS looks like a CTS??? They are two very different cars. The CTS is sharp-edged and sporty while the STS is round-edged and luxurious. IMO, it is good for a company's line-up to look similar but not exact, witch Cadillac is doing.

RES
02-06-04, 11:12 PM
:crying2: It f*ckin blows...tooooo much watering down

RES
02-06-04, 11:17 PM
:lildevil: I also feel Bob Lutz should have his privates wacked off for what he did to the STS..... :histeric:

Gramzster
02-14-04, 12:56 AM
I feel the 2005 design is nice, however I as well feel that the headlights are a factor that I do not prefer.

I was thinking of it, and I think that possibly, they should have incorporated the headlights similar to the current Seville models, as the newer headlights do give it that 'CTS' look.

Excuse my very crummy photoshop skills, but I tried to combine the 2005 model, with the current headlights, and I think if they DID do that, from the results, it would provide a redesigned model, but still have a little bit of that Seville look to it, and i would REALLY like that.

Oh well, gotta wait till the model is actually released until I can give my definite opinion.

Brett
02-14-04, 09:49 AM
That looks good gram....welcome to the forum :)

Dubya
02-16-04, 05:56 PM
we should at least see it in person before we know....in my opinion the cts isn't a very nice looking car in the pics, but i love it in person, pics don't even do the xlr enough justice! saw a red one about 2 months ago - cadillacs comming back in a big way, most of gm finally is.

gothicaleigh
02-21-04, 08:25 PM
For comparison:
http://gothicaleigh.5u.com/images/04ctsfq01.jpg

http://gothicaleigh.5u.com/images/05sts01.jpg

They definately hail from the same company, but clones? No, I don't think so. They are as similar to one another as two cars from any other manufacturer.

gothicaleigh
02-21-04, 09:07 PM
I also would like to know what is so unusual about having a company design theme.
More examples(this time from Cadillac's competitors):

http://viewimages.mbz.org/by_chassis/Sedan/203/065/c32amgt.jpg

http://viewimages.mbz.org/by_chassis/Sedan/211/w211t.jpg

gothicaleigh
02-21-04, 09:08 PM
http://gothicaleigh.5u.com/images/m3.jpg

http://gothicaleigh.5u.com/images/m5.jpg

silver bullet
02-24-04, 06:37 PM
I don't see whats wrong with Cadillac's makeing the new STS resemble the CTS yet enough of a differance , to seperate the two. It works for Mercedes, BMW, Volvo, and VW to an extent. Cadillac has a new unique style like it or not, it's catching on.

2004_SRX_
02-25-04, 03:19 PM
I just want to add that the BMW and M-B models posted are a lot more similar than the STS and CTS. In fact, there are many manufacturers with models more similar than the STS and CTS. I don't think that cars are that similar at all.

Banker
03-18-04, 07:42 PM
I have seen the STS and these pictures do not do it justice. As usual, the initial pics released by GM are not from the best angle and really do not capture the overal effect of the vehicle's styling.

The rear of the car looks great, very powerful. Side profile looks long, sleek and dignified. The interior is beyond what I ever though GM could do. I can't wait to get the full scoop at New York.

When you guys see this car, you will believe!!

Cadillac is back!

c5 rv
03-18-04, 08:22 PM
I hope to get a first-hand look sometime soon. The lady at work whose daughter is a manager at the Grand River plant said that her daughter brought a new STS home last weekend. I'm hoping for a drive - or at least a good look.

BeelzeBob
03-18-04, 10:34 PM
I've seen it. It's different looking than the CTS. I don't have pictures to post, but it's a little different than what we've seen. The pictures probably just aren't doing it any justice...

Ralph
03-19-04, 01:51 AM
I think I'm just going to also have to see one in person, I can't really tell from photos. It does look close to the CTS, except the Acura TL type rocker panal side flares along the bottom of the doors. (assuming that is the STS) I would still like to see more distinction between the models, but I guess we have no choice. I personally don't care if Mercedes, etc. has similar-looking clones among the models, I like a little more distinction and variety among a line. Why does Cadillac have to "jump in the river" if everyone else does? I like the styling of the CTS, ON the CTS. I don't really want to see a CTS-looking Deville either.

Playdrv4me
04-02-04, 09:28 AM
For comparison:
http://gothicaleigh.5u.com/images/04ctsfq01.jpg

http://gothicaleigh.5u.com/images/05sts01.jpg

They definately hail from the same company, but clones? No, I don't think so. They are as similar to one another as two cars from any other manufacturer.

I still stand by my original comment. That car could fly as the next DTS,and quite well,but as a replacement for the Seville its sorely lacking. The current STS stands out from the crowd and is instantly recognizable as a Cadillac to be recokned with. Alot of people who KNOW what an STS is would have no clue what this thing is. Oh well... I can still hold out hope they will do something drastic with the DTS. Following the competition is most certainly not the best way to get ahead of them.

Caddy Man
04-02-04, 01:44 PM
that car looks to much like the CTS. No other company takes thier lowest entry level car (sorry to all the CTS owners, no offense) and uses that to design the rest of the line!! does mercedes design the s class after the c class or bmw take design themes from the 3 series to the 7 serioes? NO!! They go the other way which is how it should be. now look at the A,B and C pillars and where the windows are on the 05 STS, they looks EXACTLY THE SAME as teh CTS, not to mention that crease that goes up near the top half of the doors. we are cadilalc enthuistats we kno the differnce btwn every cadillac model...but show those two pictures to the average person and they WILL NOT see the difference. i really liked the current STS way more than this new one, and i hope they wont make the DTS look like all the same. I mean i understand they are doin the art and science theme, but come one!! the front end off the 05 STS (grill and headlights) is IDENTICAL to the SRX.

lack master
05-29-04, 09:29 AM
:rant2:Well I'm just going to be blatent and get right down to the point. This car will not sale well and u say how do I Know? well I'm the person this car is targeted to. I'm a 27 year old buisness man. A three time caddi owner 88 dev, 94 fleet, 03 sev. I 'm a cadillac enthusist, I can buy any one of the big 4/ merced, bmw, lex, cadi. Cadillac is my car of choice. My mother drove a cadillac, now she has a lexus Ls400, tell u any thing right there? I convinced three of my good friends to buy caddi's, escalades and eldog's and more......, all younger men I mind you, all under 30. One friend got rid of his older lexus Ls400 for an deville and the other got rid of his Range Rover for an escalade. But all that dosent matter, what does matter is without me they would have never even thought about caddy,I talked them in to lac.I always stuck by caddy. I told them before the art and sience crap that caddi's were starting to get faster and better with new suspensions and had just as much clout as benz (both car heritiges dating back to 1800's). But u know what I was wrong. I thought caddi was on there way back, With all the superbowl spots and stuff. I haved watched the whole lineup change for the new and good in the past three years and haved looked on with promise and pride, steadly waiting for the final touch to the new line up the flagship the masterpiece my favorite the sts. But this makes me absloutly sick. Back in 94 when I saw my first sts I couldn't believe my eye's, a caddi that looks like a performance sedan and drives like one too, I couldn't wait to get one. To good to be true next to my stiff driving 88 deville at the time. The sts just got better as time went on with all the computer gagets and looks too. It had a different look than all the other caddies, letting u know on site that this was a different type of cadillac vehical. Not like the typical caddies of the past, something on the class level of a lexus or benz. A top notch caddi that would change peoples opinion of that old big sloth sloppy bad breaks driving sedan style everyone had become use to. A caddy that could compete. I like all caddies but I have driven caddies for over ten years and many of them had tended to be alike. I still want to stick with caddy, but don't want to give up all the immenities of Lexus(toyota) bmw and benz and the prestige. So u see, me as a caddi lover, a person who has claimed cadillac there car of choice no matter what and want's to make a statement every time I touch the road Knows that the StS has to be different than that of the other caddies. If u dont want to offend the older traditional caddi drivers (with exstream new sytling) who are all pretty much dead now anyway let them have the deville and if they don't like it they can get a benz or a wack ass lincon town car(yuck).The sts must be different to attract that younger buyer that says I'll drive to the office in a caddy but I don't want to be up staged buy that co-worker that drives an E class benz or that lexus or infinity. This car has to stand out for it is supposed to be the the flagship right, with the exception of the XLR? Cadillac has to show the younger buyer, yes we will step out on that ledge and come dramatically different in at least one car for the younger liberial driver, while making sure not to piss off the older aging conservative driver. But Lets face it, the older buyers want something differnrent too. I see all the old gezers in lexus and benz now, not like it use to be when caddies were in all your upscale neigborhoods garages (1980's). People want something different, pirticulary the younger well to do. A lot of younger people in the 90 's had an old or almost dead type of perception of a caddy driver because lexus was fresh and new but that image has started to change for u see most of the new caddy drivers are young and don't know about cadillac's prestige and over 100 year old heritage. Most of the people that chosed to buy the cts in 02' were never caddy drivers before anyway, they were just amazed by the bold stand out style caddy had chosen. Cadillac has made a horrible mistake in making the sts a big cts. Knowone that makes 80,000 a year and up wants their sts mistakin for a entry level cts lux. The cts is a fine car for cts drivers but not for the very rich taste of sts drivers.The 05 has a very cheap look inside and out, all I have to do is look at the pictures and u can tell.I know, I have plenty of pictures of this car back and front, inside and out and have studied them for hours at a time. I perdict that only 20 percent of the people that chose the old 98-04 sts over other brands will do the same again and I also predict that the 05 StS will come in dead last for cadillac in sales . Most people that were to buy this car were already caddy drivers anyway and wanted to make a bold statement, not just to other lux cars but to other cadillac drivers as well. When most of your own customers don't like a product before it has hit the market thats not good. Benz can make some of their cars look the same because they have about 30 different types of benzes made every year, Caddy can not do that because their line up is small, 6 different cars because of their buget. And everyone knows the S class dosent look like the C class, and the little baby lexus i/S dosent look like the 430 Ls, a matter of fact the LS 430 dosent resemble any other lexus and thats why it sells well and will continue to sale. In my opinion the 05 sts is a flop and will be rejected by the type of critical caddy lover that would consider this over a lex, bwm or E benz because they will know that this is supposed to be the best sedan caddy can make, "please" and it's not even close, an overgrown cts. Caddy must of thought, well Im sure that the most picky and prestigest caddy drivers will be more than happy with a big entry level cts. Mr Kluts or luts (CEO GM) or whatever, youve got to be joking. If this car does sell even a little it will be because its new, eventuly once the caddy lovers see that such pee-ions in the luxury game like infinity are making cadillac look stupid, like lexus did in the 90's they will soon jump off the band wagon like I'm about to do. I just cannot believe they didn't use the concept design thats on the future car pictures page (the bigger bubbled up sts with the vertical lights going inward and big mesh grille, something like the caddy Imaij concept), now that's how I always emagined the new 05 body, not an over grown cheapish looking cts inside and out. I dont like it and aperently I'm not the only one that dosent and I will not be buying a new cadillac sedan till they redisign the sts or dts, 2008-9 mabey. I might get an escalade though. I have told the same friends that I convinced to get lacs and still have them, that basically the new sts caddy is not a contenter and is a big joke. I don't care for it and will not be owning a new caddy sedan for a while.This is bad, for without me my friends would not be in the lac's there in now. I'm afraid that this car will be looked over for cars that are not even in this bracket (chrystler 300c). I hate to say this but the new sts sucks ass and should have never been made, you'll see when they scrap this style real quick after poors sales. I feel like my team lost the world series.I take pride in the class of luxury I drive and I will not settle for an blowted up cts that cost ten grand more.

Brett
05-29-04, 11:50 AM
This car will not sale well and u say how do I Know? well I'm the person this car is targeted to. I'm a 27 year old buisness man. .

Cadillac does not consider 27 yr olds as the target demographic for the STS, you would fit into their CTS category. Whether you personally fit into their category or not is another question(im 30yrs old and surely dont fit the demo for the LS430 i own), but the STS is designed for the 40-55 set.

1toycad
05-29-04, 12:38 PM
"I feel like my team lost the world series.I take pride in the class of luxury I drive and I will not settle for an blowted up cts that cost ten grand more." By LackMaster


I disagree with you on this point. :tisk:

The STS and the CTS may share some visual cues (like the Benz's S, E and C seris do, or like the BMW's 7 and 5 series) but the STS is not a bloated, tarted-up CTS. Both cars are different and will offer different choices to their target segment.

The STS seems to be a fine car that will attract many Euro-sled buyers. The car's many features and technological advancements make it a very attractive and viable choice.

Will the STS be a big selling success for Caddy? Only time will tell.

b4z
05-29-04, 02:42 PM
Uhhh, I had lusted over the LS400 for several years. I bought a '95 in November in excellent condition. It was soft, had very light steering and was sluggish off the line, and it didn't have great headroom.

I now drive a '04 SRX and look forward to geting behind the wheel.
What does that say to you?

I personally never liked the FWD Caddies and felt they didn't compete against the other luxury offerings.
At least now they have a fighting chance.

CaddyFan2004
06-01-04, 09:01 PM
Lack Master - with that spelling and grammar, hard to believe you're in the market for a Cadillac...

STS is a totally different car than a CTS. You're way off base. An STS is about as much the same car as a CTS as a 5 series is the same car as a 3 series.

lack master
06-01-04, 09:27 PM
well caddyman I'm supprised u are in this forum because I didn't think grade school english teachers made enough to drive lac's either.

lack master
06-01-04, 09:49 PM
ah yes caddyfan, if the CTS and the STS are both so different, why dose the STS offer an lower grade weak ass v6 now, Just like the same v6 in the CTS, oh I forgot that is the same DOHC v6 that is in the CTS. Cadillac never did that before? I don't care what anyone says they look just alike, an offer the same engine for both cars. I'm not falling for it.

ben72227
06-02-04, 12:37 AM
I personally don't like the "futuristic" or "art and science" style that GM is going with for Cadillac or any of the other subsidiaries of GM. Take for example the Chevy SSR or whatever its called. ITS AWFUL. It looks like an El Camino and a VW Beetle hooked up and had a baby. YUCK! Not to sound too hateful, i do like some of the Concept Cadillac designs like the Sixteen and the Cien, but not ones like the Vizon or whatever its called.

It seems that GM has had trouble making good-looking cars since - geez like at least 20+ years? What happened to the Corvette Stingray and Buick Specials? Seems like GM just got lazy and started making ugly-ass K-cars. Even today, with the new look futuristic look, most GM cars are still awful. Cadillac is one of the few that didn't completely get dragged down with the rest of them. At least Caddys had style to them even if they were ugly on the outside.

But lets look at say....the Malibu Max. Who would buy one of those when you could get a Honda Accord or a Toyota Camry? Most American-made cars (Chevy, Pontiac, and Ford specifically) LOOK REALLY CHEAP compared to their Asian counterparts. Lets just hope GM TRIES to make the STS so that it can compete against the competition.

And to end my awful post, heres an AWFUL PICTURE. It literally brought tears to my eyes:crying: when i saw it:

http://www.stillruns.com/caddyfire2.jpg

M STaR 013
06-02-04, 02:11 AM
i like how the 05 STS looks personally. is it because i am a CTS driver? maybe. or is it because this design theme is so different than any other rounded off luxury car is screams attention from people looking at you on the road. i think it is that. most people in the world are afraid of change, and this is another example of it. like the previous thread said the corvette people did not like the C5 design when it first came out, and look at it now, still on top. give it a chance! see the STS in real life first, please!

CaddyFan2004
06-02-04, 06:30 PM
ah yes caddyfan, if the CTS and the STS are both so different, why dose the STS offer an lower grade weak ass v6 now, Just like the same v6 in the CTS, oh I forgot that is the same DOHC v6 that is in the CTS. Cadillac never did that before? I don't care what anyone says they look just alike, an offer the same engine for both cars. I'm not falling for it.
They offer a V6 in the STS just like BMW offers the same 3 liter engine in both the 3 series and the 5 series.

The STS is a bigger car, has a more luxurious interior, and offers options not available in the CTS.

And what's "lower grade weak ass" about the V6? A 260 HP, all aluminum engine with continuously variable cam phasing and a variable intake manifold is lower grade?

lack master
06-03-04, 01:50 AM
Well caddyfan Your going to have your opinion and I will have mine, and I respect your opinion, but I have to say the inside looks very cheap. Maybe I was a little harsh on the outside but it still looks like a smoothed out CTS, not ugly but to plain for my taste.

Stace
06-03-04, 08:49 PM
The reactions to the new STS are interesting ... I believe it is a resonable interpretation of the new styling themes. I think it is much more elegant than other Cadillac models but is very definitely related in styling. Look at the MB, BMW and Audi model lines ... different but similar.

The new V6 looks like a very, very interesting powerplant. I've always been partial to V8's but I'm really impressed by the specs on the new V6. I plan on purchasing a new STS in the next few months; if the V6 were available with the AWD I would probably buy it.

Pimpin_Whity
06-03-04, 10:32 PM
different opinions on a new car as always. i personally love it, just put 4 tail pipes and it's set. some magazines describe it as a "blown-up CTS" in a negative way, those bribed monkeys never said anyting like that about bimmer (every car is a "blown-up" version of the lower class), as well as some mercs. i think caddy is splitting up in different directions, like a smart company should. they have the new sporty designs of the CTS, STS and SRX while keeping the original classic pimpin DeVille and Escalade (and maybe the already legendary Sixteen), i would love to see what they're going to do with those two next. and i can't wait for the 06 STS-V, from what i heard about it from the caddy rep on the NYC Auto Show it's going to be killer and superchared 460bhp N* powered (finally putting the engine to good use and giving caddy owners more bragging rights in the sport-lux class :devil:). but the 05 STS really shines on usefull features and interior design, which puts even the 7series to shame, and getting up to the s500 turf (while it need more leather in some parts that should have been leather to begin with :rant2: , u have to sit in it to really get the beauty. i was one of the few lucky regular folk to do that :p)

SoundAdvantage
06-04-04, 02:51 AM
These are my feelings:

Overall, a big disappointment. Of the previous vehicles adopting the Art+Science theme, the XLR is the most successful and the SRX the least successful. To keep the momentum, Cadillac should have carried on with what they did with the show cars--give us different iterations or flavors of the overall design language. The STS clearly fails to take the language another step and doesn't even apply it as well as the CTS, the first vehicle out the door with the new look.

It's obvious to me that Lutz (or someone) watered down the look.

The headlight treatment is the weakest element. The lights taper from bottom to top, giving it a static feel that might have been ok on the SRX, which as an SUV needs to look solid and safe. The STS, however, needs to look nimble, rakish, fast, and luxurious. Something a biit narrower that canted inward and tapered from top to bottom, like the Sixteen's headlights, would have been much more distinctive.

The grill doesn't add much to the package--where are some of the lovely grills we saw on the show cars? It's far too small. This car will look even blander with a mesh V-series grill.

The body shape, at least what we've been able to see from the spy shots and the one official photo, neither attempts to apply the design language on a softer overall shape, nor carriers it in the opposite direction, progressing with the knife-edge direction it was first shown with. Instead, it looks tamped down and cheap. This looks like the product of one of GM's factories of old, not the product of fresh thinking.

The old Seville had its own presence, a certain elegance. The new STS looks bland and even a little narrow--it visually doesn't look much larger than the CTS, at least in these photos. There's nothing here to appeal to a BMW or Mercedes or even Lexus driver.

My bottom line: Huge missed opportunity at a very very important moment in the Cadillac comeback. No wonder they didn't show it at Detroit--they knew they blew it.

Spoken by a True Ford Enthusiast :rolleyes: If your going to drive a car Drive American not some Bull$hit park bench ridin piece of recycled Rice Burnin Lexus, i mean Toyota. You must be unemployed and hate your Ford escort wagon so bad you never wash it :drinker Have you ever heard the saying, Never Judge a Book by it's cover ?
The STS for 2005 will be one of Cadillacs Top selling cars, and even though you won't be driving one, Just seeing ones tail lights disappear should leave you with a lasting impression.

Cadence
06-09-04, 05:45 PM
:helpless:

I been around Mercedes and BMW for a long time and the only thing that was inherently similar with the 3,5, 7, series and the C-, E-, and S-class were the front facial. The bodies were always different from each other, enough to tell the difference between them at first glance. I can easily look at the 5 series and know the difference between it and the 3 and 7 series. With Mercedes, the bodies never did resemble each other. The CLK and SLK may be similar in some ways, but their bodies never resembled each other to the point that it left other people confused with one another. And the E-class Mercedes has a personality all of it's own.

When I look at the CTS and the STS, the STS seems to be suffering from some sort of identity crisis. Either it appears like a rounded off CTS to some people, or it looks like a Deville to others. The STS, IMO, needs a more aggressive styling than what it received. I know I say this before, but I just can't help but to say it again, I was expecting the STS to look more along the lines of the Cien and Sixteen, or at least like the XLR and CTS. Just looking at it, as it is right now, says Lutz all over it. It's just not what I had expected. When I look at the '05 STS, I'm just left wondering, what is it's purpose in the lineup? :hmm: Is it the flagship? Is it the entry level to the DTS? When the '92 Seville first debuted, everyone raved at it's looks. To me, that's just what this STS should have done, grab hold of the world's attention with an iron fist.

I have to agree with Fallenstarseven here: The old Seville had it's very own presence and elegance. I think that when Lutz got involved, they lost that in the interpetation (like they did with the GTO......) with this new STS.

Maybe it is the photos being taken? But first impressions always seem to linger the longest. I want to like this car, but the body lines just won't let me right now.

Caddy Man
06-09-04, 07:50 PM
i agree with the above post on the notion that the fronts on those cars (bmw, mercedes) might be similiar but the bodies are compelty differnt that from far away i can tell at first glance. according to some peoples posts on this forum, they had trouble tellin the STS was acutally an STS and not a CTS. THats exactly what we dont need. no one i kno confuses an s class for an e or for a c class or a 3 series bmw for a 5 or a 7, but i have a feeling MANY are goin to confuse the sts for a newer cts.

Pimpin_Whity
06-10-04, 03:23 PM
try telling apart an older 5series from a 7series from "far away", not too easy. of coarse u can do it with the new 5series because it's too ugly to be compared to the good looking 7. and you can defenately tell apart an STS from a CTS.
http://www.maximum-cars.com/Cars/Cadillac/2005%20STS/2005-STS-17.jpg
http://www.cadillac.com/images/models/cts/gallery/photoExt8_med.jpg

Brett
06-10-04, 04:30 PM
i agree with the above post on the notion that the fronts on those cars (bmw, mercedes) might be similiar

yeah, the rears are totally different :rolleyes:

Cadence
06-10-04, 07:05 PM
We as fans of Cadillac will know the difference, but drivers of other brands would not know well enough to tell the CTS and the STS apart at first glance. They'd have to pretty much be on top of the car to tell the difference. The only tell-tale sign difference in the CTS and the STS, are the lines in the CTS, which gives it a much sharper image overall. But if you didn't know that, you'd call the CTS a STS and vice versa.

Also, from being an owner of past Sevilles, I'd buy the CTS on looks alone. I'm not sold on the watered down looks of the new STS at all. If that was what Cadillac was aiming for, they succeeded. The STS made a name for itself as a luxuary sportscar. Nothing in this new interpetation of the STS suggests such a thing. Other past STS owners aren't exactly won over by the new car as well. If I'm nitpicking it, so be it. I just think they need to improve the looks of it, that's all.

Lutz must be german for lopped, because all the curves in this STS were lopped off for that "jelly bean" like image.

b4z
06-10-04, 08:56 PM
Lutz also had the designers lower the roof 1" more than their original design.
I am hoping(praying) that this does not cause the windshield header to be so
low that I have trouble seeing overhead stoplights.
I already move the sunvisor over to the side window in both my SRX and the CTSs I have driven.

Can anybody guess which car company patnented the low windshield header?
You guessed it, Chrysler with the cab forward LH cars.
Wonder if Lutz had a hand in those too?

eddie
06-18-04, 09:10 PM
I find it interesting that you say the SRX is the least successful expression of the Art and Science design philosophy. The other day while driving home from work, I spotted a loaded black SRX V-8 model. Next thing I knew, I was driving slower just to get a better look, I wasn't even trying to be inconspicuous. The driver of the SRX wasn't fazed at all, no doubt because he was surrounded by admirers on all sides! It was amazing how much attention that vehicle attracted. I think you may be among the minority in your opinion of the SRX's styling.

fallenstarseven
06-19-04, 03:14 AM
Spoken by a True Ford Enthusiast :rolleyes: If your going to drive a car Drive American not some Bull$hit park bench ridin piece of recycled Rice Burnin Lexus, i mean Toyota. You must be unemployed and hate your Ford escort wagon so bad you never wash it :drinker Have you ever heard the saying, Never Judge a Book by it's cover ?
The STS for 2005 will be one of Cadillacs Top selling cars, and even though you won't be driving one, Just seeing ones tail lights disappear should leave you with a lasting impression.


Actually, Soundadvantage, I drive a BMW right now. I travel a lot on business and get a chance to drive a lot of different makes, models, and classes of cars, and am definitely not a Ford fan. I am disappointed with the direction BMW is taking--too much technology for technology's sake (iDrive, the active steering in the new 5). I like the look and feel of the new E-class so I'll probably go that route next. I am rooting Caddy on--I want to be able to buy a premium American make in the 5- and E- class. The STS just is not that car, at least not from what I've seen so far. But I don't expect you to really respond to this with anything other than more 8th grade, off-base taunts that miss the mark.

fallenstarseven
06-19-04, 03:20 AM
Eddie, I'm starting to see quite a few SRX's around on the Bay Area highways. It has grown on me somewhat. I think it's better looking than the Escalade group, not quite as good looking as the CTS. I'm hoping that maybe the photos of the STS don't capture the crisper angles and lines. Headlights are still a mess. I still don't understand why they didn't keep moving forward with some of the themes in the concept cars. Lack of guts I guess on the design side.

I like what I'm hearing about continuous upgrades to performance across the range, though.

CADDYDEN
06-21-04, 10:56 AM
I feel the 2005 design is nice, however I as well feel that the headlights are a factor that I do not prefer.

I was thinking of it, and I think that possibly, they should have incorporated the headlights similar to the current Seville models, as the newer headlights do give it that 'CTS' look.

Excuse my very crummy photoshop skills, but I tried to combine the 2005 model, with the current headlights, and I think if they DID do that, from the results, it would provide a redesigned model, but still have a little bit of that Seville look to it, and i would REALLY like that.

Oh well, gotta wait till the model is actually released until I can give my definite opinion.well done guy. Gram, that shot you posted should be shared with lutz and his design team at GM. and you should get the royalties. and then everyone can still say, Best of all, its a Cadillac!

megeebee
06-21-04, 01:54 PM
I'm with the "wait-and-see-it" faction. Any three dimentional object is best judged when seeing it in three dimensions. Also, I agree with the member that wrote that GM publicity shots aren't often very good. (which is odd, but that's another thread.)
While I'm typing, I'd like to say that, historically, any new Seville (now STS) has been quite a departure from the model it replaced. The original '76, the '80, the '86, the '92. (the interior of the '98), all leaps beyond thier predecessors. I feel that if Cadillac handles it well (un-bundling options for a start!) and not building too many fully optioned Northstar's at the beginning, the STS will bring the brand to a new, perhaps more conservative audience. Compared to its competition, the new STS is a very compelling choice. Think about it: the current LS?, the "Dame-Edna" 5 series, the E class? As a design, the STS will equit itself very well among these cars and, I feel, best a few of them!

hotrails
06-24-04, 11:01 AM
Well for my 2 cents...I agree with most- the '05 STS should have looked different, but yet carried on some elements of the '92-'97, and '98 to present.

The '05 looks like a bloated CTS from the photos. What works on the CTS doesn't seem to on the larger car. It makes the car look small, narrow and tall...everything an STS shouldn't be. I do like the fact it is RWD, but again, that will be lost if it looks like and CTS on steroids. Why should I pay what an STS costs to have it look like a smaller, less expensive model? And whoever said earlier that the Seville was never the best looking Cadillac in the line? Uh, since '92 it certainly has been. The bustle back and the other up to '92 looked like pimp-mobiles, but the Seville in either SLS or STS form has been the best looking Caddy hands down for 12 years running! Better get them eyes checked. Unless you just love the "old man" Devilles...I do like the DTS's...as more of a sleeper than anything. I always get challenged in either of my STS's by Beemers and Benz drivers out on the highway...I just wish my STS's were rear drive but I do love the styling of the current and past models...as someone else said earlier, those Sevilles had their own presence and elegance AND sportiness. Except for those with that stupid damn fake convertible top ones! I feel like taking a Sawzall to the damn thing and putting it out of its misery!!! Yuckkk!!! The only people driving those things are Pimps and 90 year old Floridians with the HUGE Re-Entry Shield Sunglasses that fit over their regular eyeglasses!! Those things are putrid!!! At least the Pimps put on the 13" Daytons and have killer sound systems in theirs LOL!!!

Caddy Man
06-26-04, 03:39 AM
well i saw another STS (second one) in detroit today, but this time it was parked so i got a up close all around look....it looks to much like a CTS! i'll say it again. I even showed my freinds and they said it looks like a larger CTS. It reminded my of those CTS that come with custom 18 inch wheels from the dealership. I dont find anythign special about this car, im sorry to say. It is my opinion, but i am basing it on one i saw in real life with my own eyes (black color). It dosnt look bad, but i dont find anyhitng special about it, they should have distinguished it a little more. just cuz the cts is successful dosnt give them a lisnce to put that treatment to all the other cars. and to those that justify it cuz bmw and mercedes have similiar designs(which they dont!!!!, except for the older 7 and 5 series, i can see where u guys would think they look the same from the back) why does that mean we have to follow those companies?! That is no excuse. to me, the STS has truly lost its presence. It is just a CTS on steroids now. There is nothin cuttin edge about the design since we all saw it 3 years ago in the form of the CTS, they should have at least kept the horizontal headlamps!! :rant2:

ko_kidd
06-30-04, 12:51 AM
New member here--not even close to having money to buy any new car.
College...


Anyhow, the 2005 STS looks OKAY buy itself, and would look damn good by any standards, but...


Because of the CTS it almost looks like a copy.

Also, it reminds me of an Acura TL or Honda Accord--mainly between the A and C pillars (from roofline to floor), especially for the "Honda"-brand Accord because the trunk snubs down [for whatever strange reason they decided to do that]

I like the photoshop of the 2004 Seville STS lights onto the new model. While the styling could be more jagged/sharper like the CTS (but not copying it), the lights alone would make a huge difference in people's perception of this new model.

At least creating some sort of shorter headlights with some length of wrap-around would relate it to the previous Seville.


(BTW, the longer wheelbase is the only thing that makes this car look long. You can see that the front wheels are closer to the bumper [do they exist these days] of the car compared to the 2004 model.)

Skuuter
06-30-04, 04:24 PM
But lets look at say....the Malibu Max. Who would buy one of those when you could get a Honda Accord or a Toyota Camry? Most American-made cars (Chevy, Pontiac, and Ford specifically) LOOK REALLY CHEAP compared to their Asian counterparts. Lets just hope GM TRIES to make the STS so that it can compete against the competition.

I completely disagree with you regarding preferring aCamry or Accord over a Malibu Maxx. I've never been an Accord fan, and having rented both a 2004 Camry and Maxx lately, I can tell you the Maxx is a much nicer car. I know all the critics say the Camry has better quality interior pieces, but I disagree. I think a lot of people are wrongly biased to give the Toyotas an edge in "perceived" quality. Aside from the electronic steering, The Malibu is a much better road car, IMHO. The Camry rides terribly on bad roads, while the Malibu does a much better job at absorbing these same imperfections.

ben72227
06-30-04, 05:16 PM
I completely disagree with you regarding preferring aCamry or Accord over a Malibu Maxx. I've never been an Accord fan, and having rented both a 2004 Camry and Maxx lately, I can tell you the Maxx is a much nicer car. I know all the critics say the Camry has better quality interior pieces, but I disagree. I think a lot of people are wrongly biased to give the Toyotas an edge in "perceived" quality. Aside from the electronic steering, The Malibu is a much better road car, IMHO. The Camry rides terribly on bad roads, while the Malibu does a much better job at absorbing these same imperfections.
"Perceived" Quality????

There's a reason that Toyota and it's luxary line Lexus scored highest on JD Powers reliability reports AND Consumer Reports this year. Its because no matter how bad you talk about the Jap auto makers, the fact still remains that they're light years ahead of most American cars in terms of reliability. What do you think goes to the mechanic more - a Toyota 4Runner or a Dodge Durango??? The dodge of course... Over the past ten years alone, there have been so MANY bad American made cars:

Chevy Cavalier
Pontiac Sunfire
Dodge EVERYTHING
Chevy Trailblazer
GMC Envoy
GMC Sonoma
Jeep Grand Cherokee
Pontiac Bonneville

And those are just the really bad ones i remember off the top of my head.

Not to sound too pessimistic, i will say that the american car makers are making an effort to make better cars (the new, redesigned Malibu, the Cavalier replacement (I think its called Cobalt???), even the Corvette is getting upgraded (Im assuming its so it can compete with Ford's new sports cars - the GT and the new Mustang) as well as the new Sigma-based Cadillacs (which i personally don't like; they don't have any personality to them. Don't look like Caddys to me) and the new Dodge Magnum and Chrysler 300 are all a step in the right direction. Its good that the american car companies finally realized that the Jap cars are far superior in quality to american, so they were forced to redesign their vehicles to be up to par with the Japs.

Barber of Seville
07-24-04, 04:13 PM
Too bad that Cadillacs are no longer elegant luxury cars. If I wanted a sports car Cadillac is the last brand I would consider. If Cadillac were to split the difference and still make traditional luxury cars like Fleetwood and Eldorado while marketing cars like the CTS, STS and SRX they might retain more of their original customer base. 9 out of 10 Americans won't be able to distinguish the new STS from the CTS....I can't so far. :tisk:

Don't know what I'll replace my Seville with but it certainly won't be with any of the Batmobile wannabes that Cadillac is turning out. They seem to have lost their way. I have spoken to legions of fellow Cadillac owners that think the new cars are downright ugly. Well, they are. I'm probably gonna replace my car with something substantial looking like a Chrysler 300M.

The new Caddies are warmed over, slightly reworked Saturns and Opels....not much more.

2dfx
07-27-04, 08:46 PM
IMHO the new STS is an insult to what the STS was. The STS was the 'luxury sports car' and now is no longer seems to have that luxury look and feel. It feels too foreign to me...but perhaps thats what the Cadillac engineers are going for since noone wants to buy an American car anymore...nono they must have their Lexus' and Acuras etc etc

That leaves the only traditional looking car in the Cadillac lineup to the DeVille and related combos.

After seeing this, I feel sick now. Disaster may await when they redesign the DeVille....

gothicaleigh
07-27-04, 09:49 PM
Too bad that Cadillacs are no longer elegant luxury cars. If I wanted a sports car Cadillac is the last brand I would consider.

With choices that include the CTS-V and XLR (both among the best, if not the best in their respective classes), why would Caddy be your last choice? Surely, there are less sporting brands...


Don't know what I'll replace my Seville with but it certainly won't be with any of the Batmobile wannabes that Cadillac is turning out. They seem to have lost their way. I have spoken to legions of fellow Cadillac owners that think the new cars are downright ugly. Well, they are. I'm probably gonna replace my car with something substantial looking like a Chrysler 300M.

You meant '300C', right? The 300M is anything but substantial...
Lost it's way? I would say it finally remembered what made it great to begin with. Bold, controversial designs and world-class performance. It's come full circle in my opinion...
I think the recent turn around in sales for Cadillac proves that it has worked too. These are the best Cadillacs produced since the 60's. Finally Cadillac can say it's a world competitor and keep a straight face while doing it.


The new Caddies are warmed over, slightly reworked Saturns and Opels....not much more.

The Opel (er, I mean Cadillac) Catera no longer exists. The current lineup is based on the Sigma chassis (which so far is exclusive to Cadillac) and has nothing to do with Opel.

I don't understand your Saturn comparison at all. Please explain where you see similarities... :hmm:

gothicaleigh
07-27-04, 10:03 PM
Don't know what I'll replace my Seville with but it certainly won't be with any of the Batmobile wannabes that Cadillac is turning out.

Aww... and C&D thought you were going to switch for sure...
"The kindly old barber of Seville trades scissors for a switchblade. (http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=3&article_id=8279)"

miscreant
07-27-04, 11:17 PM
IMHO the new STS is an insult to what the STS was. The STS was the 'luxury sports car' and now is no longer seems to have that luxury look and feel. It feels too foreign to me...but perhaps thats what the Cadillac engineers are going for since noone wants to buy an American car anymore...nono they must have their Lexus' and Acuras etc etc

No, the STS never was...period. It was always a little tighter, little sleeker...Deville. NOW it is the luxury SPORT sedan. I still get tickled to death when people comment about the "look and feel" of a car not yet even available to drive or sit in at dealerships...



That leaves the only traditional looking car in the Cadillac lineup to the DeVille and related combos.

Unfortunately, the "traditional" cars are NOT selling...at all. With TONs of money off, they aren't selling. Funny, the new art & science stuff, now that stuff we can't keep on the lot...I know there are still traditional buyers out there, but they are quickly and quietly becoming the extreme minority.

But don't fret - the STS finally fills the spot it was meant to fill, but Cadillac was too scared before to step into those shoes - not now. But those that are used to the way the STS was (which was alot of luxury with very little sport) will need to understand that the STS no longer is that car - the new DTS is that car, but you have to wait 1 more year for that...

The 2005 STS reinvents the STS, and now there really will be a difference between the STS and the DTS...

jerseyvette
07-28-04, 09:01 AM
These are my feelings:

Overall, a big disappointment. Of the previous vehicles adopting the Art+Science theme, the XLR is the most successful and the SRX the least successful. To keep the momentum, Cadillac should have carried on with what they did with the show cars--give us different iterations or flavors of the overall design language. The STS clearly fails to take the language another step and doesn't .....

My bottom line: Huge missed opportunity at a very very important moment in the Cadillac comeback. No wonder they didn't show it at Detroit--they knew they blew it.

You probably have seen my other posts and I agree with you regarding this STS being a small looking car with a "safe bet" type of design from GM. I've been driving cadillacs since the early 1990s and this is the singular largest disappointment that I have seen from GM (since the Cimarron in the 80s).

I saw this car twice. Once at the NY Auto Show last spring and once again in front of a Hotel here in Nj several weeks ago. I went to a local dealer to see the car and they told me that it is not available yet and that the car I saw was probably one that a factory rep was driving that stopped by the hotel. Anyway to make a long story short here is what my impression was of the car;

1) Takes what the CTS has as a look and dulls it down. Almost like if you were to take the CTS, enlarge it a few inches in every dimension and just generally dulled it down.

2) The side profile looks boxy and inexpensive. For example: On a BMW 5 Series Sport package the window seal areas are all black as well but they appear to be sporty since the cars have a flowing ane elegant design. On the 2005 STS all the window seal areas look like they were tacked on as an after thought to a squared off window shape etc.

3) From a pure sheet metal perspective the 2005 STS apprears to look inexpensive rather than expensive. I was in San Diego thsi week and saw two cars on the road (along Rt5) a BMW 645 CSI (2004) and a New Bentley Continental GT 2 door. Both of these cars had a brawny, aero and wide stance to them. The BMW coupe has a very Avant garde type of Artistic look which I think gives it more and more appeal as time goes on (it actually grows on you). Now look at the STS shape, why is there such little Cadillac originality in the car? They could have made a very pronounced grill or even given the car an elongated Aston Martin sedan type of look that combined futuristic technology with all the best of the past, butbthis did not happen.

4) I''d bet what is driving the shape of the STS are the following factors. a) The car is really designed to sell into smaller car countries like Italy, France, Germany, Japan and China with only an equal consideration for the US market. An interestring fact is that the 1998 Seville was the first cadillac unveiled over seas as a new "global model" as compared to focusing on the US as the primary and most important market. b) since the bet for high profits is going to be in the SUV space (and the Escalade and SRX are already designed) the 2005 STS could not look "too good" or show up the "bread winner" products like SRX, CTS and Escalade for GM. Could they have made a car that looks better than a 745i? Certainly! But they did not in order to keep the other models looking valuable. Just imagine if a lower priced STS looked 20 times better then an SRX or Escalade..think about this..it makes sense.

If any sponsoring dealers are out there I'd appreciate to be left alone with PRO 2005 STS propoganda comments. If anyone has a sincere discussion to have that is objective I welcome it.

gothicaleigh
07-28-04, 09:51 AM
Takes what the CTS has as a look and dulls it down. Almost like if you were to take the CTS, enlarge it a few inches in every dimension and just generally dulled it down.

I agree that they should have left the creases alone. The car would have had much more presence in my opinion had they left the angles sharp. The front uses similar design elements to the CTS, but the back is more akin to a DTS than the CTS.
I don't see the 'CTS look' in the interior at all...

DG2
07-28-04, 04:41 PM
I sat in the new STS at the New York auto show. I looked it over carefully for a good 30 min. The STS does look very much like the CTS ! Cadillac made some strong improvements on the design while making for a better balance of the Art & Science" theme. The interior is stunning compared to the CTS. The big question is is it worth trading in my '04 CTS Lux/Sport/Nav for the STS? How will the trade in value hold up?

The CTS is so darn good I am not certain it would be a smart move to trade up.....

gothicaleigh
07-28-04, 05:20 PM
If any sponsoring dealers are out there I'd appreciate to be left alone with PRO 2005 STS propoganda comments. If anyone has a sincere discussion to have that is objective I welcome it.

You mean anyone who shares your opinion of the car?

BTW, the only one I know of with dealer connections around here is Miscreant. So far I haven't seen anything he has posted that would be 'propaganda' or speculation, just facts and numbers on the car. Your posts on the other hand, are based on nothing more than you happening to have seen the car once or twice and your assumptions based upon that. It would lend some credibility if you had a legit source to back up your statements.

miscreant
07-28-04, 07:26 PM
I think you finally convinced me...


1) Takes what the CTS has as a look and dulls it down. Almost like if you were to take the CTS, enlarge it a few inches in every dimension and just generally dulled it down.

Yes, it's duller. Looks almost like a mix between the CTS and traditional Deville - the rear looks strikingly like a Deville. Ludicrous thinking on their part. I don't understand why they wouldn't abandon the old style and go completely Art & Science. Chizzled lines and all.



2) The side profile looks boxy and inexpensive.

I agree, as the picture below points out. It's more boxy than a new Chrysler 300 in fact. It's boxy, but yet dulled down, kind of a dulled-down boxy car. It's boxy in a not-boxy kind of way.

http://www.ctsowners.com/images/stsside.jpg



3) From a pure sheet metal perspective the 2005 STS apprears to look inexpensive rather than expensive. I was in San Diego thsi week and saw two cars on the road (along Rt5) a BMW 645 CSI (2004) and a New Bentley Continental GT 2 door. Both of these cars had a brawny, aero and wide stance to them. The BMW coupe has a very Avant garde type of Artistic look which I think gives it more and more appeal as time goes on (it actually grows on you).

Yes, indeed. I mean the extra $10K+ grand of the 645 and the extra $70K of the Bentley is nothing - can't Cadillac stun me like those two door specialty cars do? Great comparison.



Now look at the STS shape, why is there such little Cadillac originality in the car?


I was wondering the same thing. Why can't cadillac come out with cars just like the 745i and 645 styling, but yet nothing like them and be original? Aren't there intelligent people at Cadillac that can figure this out? Make a car just like the imports, like the styling of these E and S class cars, like the 5 series you alude to above, but yet not like them with some cadillac originality. Why can't they have the big grilles like the 300, but yet stay original to cadillac?



They could have made a very pronounced grill or even given the car an elongated Aston Martin sedan type of look that combined futuristic technology with all the best of the past, butbthis did not happen.

Amen, read my mind. Why not the big grille to compete with the Chryslers!?!? But yet different too, original. Why not an Aston Martin-ish sedan, but without the price tag and still different and original. I'm following you man!



4) I''d bet what is driving the shape of the STS are the following factors. a) The car is really designed to sell into smaller car countries like Italy, France, Germany, Japan and China with only an equal consideration for the US market.


Exactly, the car is designed so much like the luxury imports it's obvious they want to compete, but yet not designed like the imports at all. Cadillac is ramping up their exports each day! How dare they consider to actually compete in the global market when we need the competition here as more and more people drop their money into the luxury imports here in the US? They should have come out with an American style sedan, but yet styled like the luxury imports at the same time.



An interestring fact is that the 1998 Seville was the first cadillac unveiled over seas as a new "global model" as compared to focusing on the US as the primary and most important market.


The new Cadillacs should compete with the Chryslers and Fords, not the luruxy Imports - exactly. I mean, isn't Cadillac an AMERICAN car company, it shouldn't be acting like it can actually compete on that level.



b) since the bet for high profits is going to be in the SUV space (and the Escalade and SRX are already designed) the 2005 STS could not look "too good" or show up the "bread winner" products like SRX, CTS and Escalade for GM.

I think you nailed that on the head. If the STS would have been REALLY stunning, that SRX or Escalade buyer would have certainly turned their eyes to the STS and purchased a car instead. Good thing they toned it down so the sales of the SRX and Escalade weren't effected. I think they'd much rather NOT sell the STS over the SRX or Escalade.



Could they have made a car that looks better than a 745i? Certainly! But they did not in order to keep the other models looking valuable. Just imagine if a lower priced STS looked 20 times better then an SRX or Escalade..think about this..it makes sense.

It makes TOTAL sense. Just the other day I was talking to a guy who was comparing the Lincoln Navigator, Lexus LX470, Infiniti QX56, Land Rover Range Rover, and Cadillac Escalade. Good thing a lower priced STS wasn't on the lot, or I think he'd have switched in a heart beat...



If any sponsoring dealers are out there I'd appreciate to be left alone with PRO 2005 STS propoganda comments. If anyone has a sincere discussion to have that is objective I welcome it.

Yeah, though I am not going to be that calm about it. Basically, if anyone doesn't agree with us (me and you), don't bother to post.

megeebee
07-28-04, 07:30 PM
You mean anyone who shares your opinion of the car?

BTW, the only one I know of with dealer connections around here is Miscreant. So far I haven't seen anything he has posted that would be 'propaganda' or speculation, just facts and numbers on the car. Your posts on the other hand, are based on nothing more than you happening to have seen the car once or twice and your assumptions based upon that. It would lend some credibility if you had a legit source to back up your statements.

Here, here! And no, I am not a dealer nor do I profit in any way when others buy Cadillacs.

gothicaleigh
07-28-04, 10:19 PM
I think you finally convinced me...
<snip>
Yeah, though I am not going to be that calm about it. Basically, if anyone doesn't agree with us (me and you), don't bother to post.

lol :rolling:

Who says we all can't agree? :p

Devil_concours
07-29-04, 12:03 AM
why do you constantly make comparisons with european sedans and yet you don't want the cadillac to be in european sedan level (Which is whole lot higher than american luxury). Also if you think 300c is all american, look again.

M STaR 013
07-29-04, 04:40 AM
jerseyvette flip-flops almost as much as John Kerry! :rolleyes:

Caddy Man
07-29-04, 10:53 AM
and stop pointing out it shouldnt be like a europeans sedan yet you sit there comparing it to every f*ckin european car!!!!! :banghead: You keep sayin its a small car, HOW BIG ARE YOU DAM* IT!!!!?!? I also think the sts looks a little too much like a cts, but nontheless, i think its a beautiful car and it really puts cadillac in competition with the europeans...THE DAYS OF BIG BOAT CADILLACS IS OVER. I can see some of you dont like change...well to bad, its going to happen. and stop with your ''everyone is a dealer tryin to shut me up'' conspiracy theories. :bighead:

Brett
07-29-04, 10:55 AM
miscreant, that may be the funniest post ever on this forum.

jerseyvette
07-29-04, 01:19 PM
and stop pointing out it shouldnt be like a europeans sedan yet you sit there comparing it to every f*ckin european car!!!!! :banghead: You keep sayin its a small car, HOW BIG ARE YOU DAM* IT!!!!?!? I also think the sts looks a little too much like a cts, but nontheless, i think its a beautiful car and it really puts cadillac in competition with the europeans...THE DAYS OF BIG BOAT CADILLACS IS OVER. I can see some of you dont like change...well to bad, its going to happen. and stop with your ''everyone is a dealer tryin to shut me up'' conspiracy theories. :bighead:

Cadillac is SUPPOSED TO be synonomous with luxury, performance style and prestige (at least in my mind). If Cadillac does not stand "for big cars anymore" than the branding manager should be FIRED at GM. If Bentley, Rolls Royce or even Mercedes started making all small cars it WOULD BE BUSINESS SUICIDE for the companies, brand and stakeholders.

The mentality you ahve is WHY US CADILLAC OWNERS are all pissed off at GM. They have adopted a mentality that teh American Standard is a small and sub car car. Can STS compete on a US standard with european cars? The numbers will tell us that, this is why I will be scouring every GM resource I have in 8 months to see what the sales numbers are (It will be like my own small version of a Michael Moore film to show that small is not the way to go.)

Anyway this is not an ad homonym arguement at you or any other member. My beef is with GM Cadillac (secifically the STS design). I am not a troll rather a person who has sunk a lot of $$ into GM cars that I have been proud of over the years.

I feel like an orphan who has been abandoned by papa GM... :drinker

gothicaleigh
07-29-04, 02:46 PM
The Cadillacs are larger than the Mercedes that they share classes with. Bentley and RollsRoyce compete in a higher market segment and do not fit into a Cadillac comparison. It has been over fifty years since they were last seen as Cadillac competitors.

You also keep bringing up the suggestion that Cadillac sales are suffering because of the redesigns. This could not be further from the truth. Since they adopted the Art&Science design philosophy, Cadillac has been seeing record sales numbers. If the Sigma cars would have failed, Cadillac would have been going the way of Oldsmobile. The company was in trouble and needed a cataclysmic change. Should the branding manager be fired? Hell, I bet he's getting a fat bonus.


Cadillac is SUPPOSED TO be synonomous with luxury, performance style and prestige (at least in my mind).

Before the redesign, Cadillac was not associated with any of those qualities aside from maybe luxury(if they were lucky).

Now they have luxury with better quality interiors and electronics than ever before. The performance is finally on par with the rest of the world. The style is unique and influencing manufacturers around the world. And the new pricing and upscale competitiveness will recapture some of the brand's lost prestige.

Cadillac has delivered on all the qualities you claim to care about.

jerseyvette
07-30-04, 12:52 PM
jerseyvette flip-flops almost as much as John Kerry! :rolleyes:HELP..IS ON...THE WAY...

SET IT...AND..FORGET..IT.

I am not a Kerry Supporter at all but the campaign makes me chuckle!!
Regarding me Flip Flopping:

I Hop HELP..IS...ON..THE WAY for Cadillac Engineering.

I want a Cadillac A8-Eater Soon!!

jerseyvette
07-30-04, 01:14 PM
The Cadillacs are larger than the Mercedes that they share classes with. Bentley and RollsRoyce compete in a higher market segment and do not fit into a Cadillac comparison. It has been over fifty years since they were last seen as Cadillac competitors.

You also keep bringing up the suggestion that Cadillac sales are suffering because of the redesigns. This could not be further from the truth. Since they adopted the Art&Science design philosophy, Cadillac has been seeing record sales numbers. If the Sigma cars would have failed, Cadillac would have been going the way of Oldsmobile. The company was in trouble and needed a cataclysmic change. Should the branding manager be fired? Hell, I bet he's getting a fat bonus.



Before the redesign, Cadillac was not associated with any of those qualities aside from maybe luxury(if they were lucky).

Now they have luxury with better quality interiors and electronics than ever before. The performance is finally on par with the rest of the world. The style is unique and influencing manufacturers around the world. And the new pricing and upscale competitiveness will recapture some of the brand's lost prestige.

Cadillac has delivered on all the qualities you claim to care about.Like Dr. Ferry Porsche said. "I never used marketing research or sophisticated analytical models, I just designed the car of my dreams and I felt others would feel the same way I did." In my world Cadillac would be playing in every size segment of luxury cars. they should have a true competitor (again in size and segment) to the RWD TownCar and other intimidating cars like 745iL and S Class Etc. It;s simply a size thing, the larger it is the more intimidating and desireable the car becomes (like Shaq bigger is better!)

miscreant
07-30-04, 02:25 PM
In my world Cadillac would be playing in every size segment of luxury cars. they should have a true competitor (again in size and segment) to the RWD TownCar and other intimidating cars like 745iL and S Class Etc.

They will. The STS isn't it though, so stop trying to make it *it*, or at the least complaining that it's not. The STS fills the gap needed to be filled by Cadillac. They had the CTS, then a big gap, then the Seville and Deville. Rather than leave that gap, they decided to fill it with what the late model Sevilles were supposed to be. This also was a market segment that Cadillac had NOTHING to compete with. At the least, the Deville still does offer some good size and clean traditional Cadillac lines.

I think you probably would have more success in the Deville section. Maybe the moderators can make a 2006 and beyond DTS section and you can post what you think the DTS should be. But the fact of the matter is that the STS is to be, was created, and designed to be a competitor to a class and size of vehicles outside of your comparisons...