: M, AMG, SRT, V, SVT, SS, S (audi), R (jaguar) - Who's the best



CVP33
04-10-06, 07:06 PM
Who has the best in house tuning and why?

BMW - M
Mercedes - AMG
Chrysler/Dodge - SRT
Cadillac - V
Ford - SVT
Chevrolet - SS (yes you can include the Z06)
Audi - S
Jaguar - R


I didn't include AC Schnitzer, Brabus, Callaway, Lingenfelter, Mallett, etc. because aftermarket tuners are literally endless.

Caddy Man
04-10-06, 11:40 PM
Id have to say the M line. They have been at it probably the longest and BMWs are already known for thier handling and sporty feel even on the base models.

davesdeville
04-12-06, 03:09 AM
BMW, Mercedes, Cadillac, Audi, and Jaguar are really on a different level than Ford, Chevy, and Chrysler/Dodge.

I would have to say it's AMG for the top level. Hopefully super V would change that.

And SRT definately over SS and SVT right now in the lower level.

gothicaleigh
04-12-06, 06:53 AM
///M

BMW even has the motorsport (which the ///M stands for) history to back it up.
They squeeze every ounce of power out of their engines and offer the most complete performance package in each of their classes.




AMG may have faster cars in the rediculously high price ranges, but ///M is at the top of any class they compete in and remains the benchmark for in-house performance.

AsAkAs
04-12-06, 09:50 AM
I'd go with the M, but Audi's new RS line is shaping up to be much better competition, i've always loved AWD in performance cars.

As for stlying though, V takes the cake.

Blackout
04-12-06, 12:26 PM
As for stlying though, V takes the cake.AMG > V series for styling. Performance purposes I can't make a clear cut winner. I have a 3 way tie for that with SRT, M, and Audi's RS line.

GERMEEZY1
04-12-06, 12:48 PM
definitely M....they only do cars that are out of the box pure handling cars...not like SRT or SS that does SUV's.....M only does manuals and no SUV's.....

CVP33
04-12-06, 06:49 PM
While I agree that the Europeans have it over us Americans in high end performance, racing heritage, etc. I would argue that, allowing for price, the argument can be made that you get more for less with the US offerings. Specifically what Cadillac and Chrysler have done with thier V and SRT models. The SRT covers literally all the bases with offerings from $24K (srt-4) up to $90K (srt-10 viper).

I'd rank them like this:

Performance - M
Class and cache - AMG
All season ass kicking - S (audi)
Making up ground quickly - V
Everyman's supertuner - SRT
Not living up to the name - SS
Going, going, gone - SVT (and yes you will be missed)
Why bother - R (Jaguar)
I'm sorry this is speed and performance, NOT let's play dress up - Mazdaspeed, TRD (Toyota) and S-Type/A-spec (Acura)

Zorb750
04-13-06, 12:45 AM
Who the hell deleted my post? I wrote it this morning...

I'll rewrite the same opinions...

M first of all.

SRT can't be beat for performance for the money.

If you did include the aftermarkets, I would say M+Dinan, then AMG+RENNtech.

CVP33
04-13-06, 08:10 PM
Who the hell deleted my post? I wrote it this morning...



Damned conspiracy!

Jesda
04-15-06, 12:20 PM
Oooh, good thread. SS has the heritage and M has the reputation. Unfortunately, the SS badge has been abused as of late.

I lean toward M overall. They're daring and innovative.

R Jags and V Cadillacs get the nod for styling.

JCM1
04-15-06, 12:37 PM
I have a great respect for BMW's M. They offer the best balance in performance and handling. But, I am a Mercedes guy, my favorite is still AMG. Besides, where else are you going to find 738 lb-ft of torque and 604 HP on a roadster, luxury coupe, and full size luxury sedan. And that's at only 2,400 RPM :)

Zorb750
04-15-06, 09:21 PM
Just don't forget that if you put that SL65 on any kind of track other than a straight line, the M6 will destroy it.

JCM1
04-16-06, 12:46 AM
Maybe, but I'd like to see how the new SL compares, and the more practical four door S65 AMG has no BMW counterpart. I would like to see an M7 but, such a vehical would have been better based on the old 7-Series.
Let us not forget the G55 AMG. Where else are you going to find a 5,500+ pound truck that accelerates to 60 MPH in 5.5 seconds then up to an electronically limited 130 MPH. Go home switch tires and hit the trails with not only low range gearing but, three locking differentials. To top is off, you can tow 7,700 pounds and probably still get to 60 MPH in under 12 sec.

96Fleetwood
04-16-06, 10:03 AM
AMG used to be on top before they became a permanent part of Daimler-Chrysler... right now I would have to go with M//

Zorb750
04-16-06, 02:50 PM
X5 4.6is

X5 4.8is.

The G series Mercedes looks like a bus. It's not nearly as refined as it could be, to the point that it's not worth buying to your typical simple "expensive car buyer" because it's inferior to so many of them. The ML, BMW X6, Lexus GX and LX, and Range Rover* are all quite a bit more civilized. I know that only the G, LX and Range Rover are passable off road.

Don't forget that only about 5 percent of Range Rover drivers actually take them off road. I would think it would be a good deal less than that for this car, even though it is quite capable off road. Take it out of its element (read: put it on road) and it loses its edge.

JCM1
04-16-06, 07:21 PM
Can't do anything off road with the X5 and the current Range Rover has a sketchy off road record. It's the styling of the G that's appealing. Too many SUV's look the same regardless of price. The G stands out from the rest with capabilities that most of the other lack.

Zorb750
04-16-06, 09:01 PM
Ah but I didn't say that the X5 had much in the way off road capabilities. BMW says its recommended off road use is limited to trails, not rock crawling, mud, sand dunes (though they don't have much trouble at Silver Lake in Michigan). The G's off road abilities in imported form are about that of the Land Rover Discovery II.

Off Road Magazine put the so-called "off road capable" upscale SUVs to the test a while back. The Range Rover (Previous gen) and Jeep Grand Cherokee were the only two that got through everything. The Lexus, Mercedes G500, Durango (previous generation), and Discovery II handled most of it, for the medium class. Some kind of Infiniti, the Ford Explorer, the X5, and I forget the rest formed the light class which they recommended for light use only.

They grouped into three classes, in terms of actual overall capability (regardless of toys and features). There were twenve, but I don't remember all of them. I just remember Grand Cherokee, Discovery II, Range Rover, G500, Lexus, X5, Ford Exploder, Infiniti, Durango, Chevrolet Trailblazer. The vehicle had to be available in a fairly civilized form. They wrote that they specifically did NOT test the Hummer because they could not justify calling it an upscale vehicle. I also remember them stating that for this test the Trailblazer and Envoy were not equivalent, as the Envoy did not have a heavy duty or off road package, and skid plates were not available.

Will scan and post if I find it soon.

JCM1
04-16-06, 09:05 PM
Well if they tested the G500 with it's standard street shoes no wonder. I'm surprized they didn't include the H2.

JCM1
04-16-06, 09:06 PM
Anyways, back to M vs. AMG, why did BMW never make an M7?

AsAkAs
04-16-06, 09:42 PM
Anyways, back to M vs. AMG, why did BMW never make an M7?

Good question, I'm sure they will at some point, we already have the M6, it's just a few steps away

JCM1
04-16-06, 10:56 PM
I hope they do, while I am a Mercedes fan there is nothing wrong with competition, keeps everyone on their toes and more willing to build some very nice road machines. As I said in a previous post, I wish BMW would have made an M7 out of the previous 7-Series, something like a M7 V-12. I like the older 7, the newer one has some querky styling cues and electronics. I think they scared away their more conservative buyer, right into the arms of Mercedes or Lexus. The current 7 would still be an excellent canidate for the M treatment. If BMW did decide to take that route, the S65 AMG would certainly get a run for it's money. But I still think overall, AMG offers a more diverse line up of luxury performance vehicals then M. I think most of the differnece between M and AMG lies in personal taste, driving style and maybe most important, the accual vehical that recieves the performance treatment. The competition is way too close to call one or the other the 'best.'

JCM1
04-16-06, 11:09 PM
I saw a very nice example of a black Chrysler 300 SRT-8 today while I was at the Mobil station in Dearborn Heights, Michigan. It did not look stock so I asked the owner a few questions who was only too happy to show off his rather impressive ride. The engine was supercharged, chipped, and had an intake kit. The exhaust had been upgraded and the sway bars beefed up by some 30% according to him. The only thing I didn't like was the 'Lambo' front doors but, to each his own. Either way, a very impressive rig. I have to imagine he has to have around 550 HP with all the upgrades. I would love to see how it would perform against the STS-V, XLR-V, or even the likes of BMW's or Mercedes' performance models.

Zorb750
04-17-06, 01:22 AM
There was no H2 at the time.

740i Sport + Dinan S3 = M7... More or less at least.

It puts its handling up to 540i levels, plus adds a supercharger. Supercharged BMW 4.4 = 412 HP. There's additional hardware you can add to bump it up to 463 as well, but only if you have the 99+ version (With Double VANOS), the 1996-1998 4.4s can "only" get to 441.

JCM1
04-17-06, 09:35 AM
But still no smooth as glass V-12.

fast66
05-21-06, 05:37 PM
M for sure, far better than AMG.

dp102288
05-22-06, 01:13 PM
Gimme the price of an M6 or SL55/65, and I will have an STS-V that will smoke them all. V all the way.

Florian
05-23-06, 10:04 PM
While I agree that the Europeans have it over us Americans in high end performance, racing heritage, etc. I would argue that, allowing for price, the argument can be made that you get more for less with the US offerings. Specifically what Cadillac and Chrysler have done with thier V and SRT models. The SRT covers literally all the bases with offerings from $24K (srt-4) up to $90K (srt-10 viper).

I'd rank them like this:

Performance - M
Class and cache - AMG
All season ass kicking - S (audi)
Making up ground quickly - V
Everyman's supertuner - SRT
Not living up to the name - SS
Going, going, gone - SVT (and yes you will be missed)
Why bother - R (Jaguar)
I'm sorry this is speed and performance, NOT let's play dress up - Mazdaspeed, TRD (Toyota) and S-Type/A-spec (Acura)

CVP,
While I agree on most points (Ive owned most of the car types mentioned - I read that SVT will produce a car and truck (likely the Cobra and Lightning) per year.
As for the SS label...strictly marketing anymore, no punch, no power.

You nailed the rest!


F

Blackout
05-24-06, 05:27 AM
New rumors are coming out that SVT will make SVT versions of the Fusion and the Edge.

gothicaleigh
05-24-06, 07:15 PM
New rumors are coming out that SVT will make SVT versions of the Fusion and the Edge.

Can you honestly be excited about that though? :yawn:

I~LUV~Caddys8792
05-24-06, 08:01 PM
I vote for AMG. I'd say M, but they don't cover enough models. For example, you can get a S65AMG but no M7.

Blackout
05-25-06, 05:40 AM
Can you honestly be excited about that though? :yawn:For the Fusion yes for the Edge....ehhhh.....I'm not waiting for it but it would be interesting to see what they make of it. But the last I heard the SVT Fusion is supposed to have their new 3.5 V6 which is making 300 hp and then have SVT go through it and I could see a 350-400 hp Fusion. Just make sure it has a stick and it will be all good. And on top of the Edge and Fusion SVT already announced that they already have the GT500 and their next project will be a pickup. Maybe a return of the Lightning?

ChicagoCTS32
05-26-06, 07:33 PM
SVT is dead. Car & Driver, June 2006: Csaba Csere's "The Steering Column" - Ford drives its 13-year-old SVT group off a cliff. The last car coming out of the SVT group is the GT500, but it's de-emphasizing the SVT name. SVT was only the marketing unit of Ford. The engineering was performed by SVE, Special Vehicle Engineering. Random details...


M only does manuals.....

M does make an automatic. The new M5 is a 7 speed SMG. The 6MT is coming out this fall.

My vote, The M division of BMW. Close 2nd, V-Series from Cadillac (but I'm biased).

Good thread Chris.

Blackout
05-27-06, 10:34 AM
SVT is dead. Car & Driver, June 2006: Csaba Csere's "The Steering Column" - Ford drives its 13-year-old SVT group off a cliff. The last car coming out of the SVT group is the GT500, but it's de-emphasizing the SVT name. SVT was only the marketing unit of Ford. The engineering was performed by SVE, Special Vehicle Engineering. Random details...Really?


Ford Edge and Fusion to get SVT treatment?

Posted May 22nd 2006 6:54AM by Erin Mays (http://www.autoblog.com/bloggers/erin-mays), Autoblog.Com


http://www.autoblog.com/media/2006/05/fusion.jpg (http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:hyWgEeMMacoJ:subscribers.wardsauto. com/ar/ford_mulls_svt/+edge+mulls&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=2)Ford spokespeople let it slip that the company is considering SVT variants of its new Edge crossover and Fusion sedan (pictured). The move would support Mark Field's statements last month that SVT is alive and well, and not on its deathbed as previously rumored. As it stands, the Mustang and an unidentified truck will get SVT upgrades, and the consolidation of SVT and Ford Racing, as well as the recent successes of the latter, will no doubt build excitement for the new vehicles.

[Source: Ward's AutoWorld]
(Thanks to Omar for the tip)


Read (http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:hyWgEeMMacoJ:subscribers.wardsauto. com/ar/ford_mulls_svt/+edge+mulls&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=2)

ChicagoCTS32
05-27-06, 11:42 AM
Really?

I cited my source. You cited yours. We'll see what happens. I don't want SVT to die. They have a nice multi-year history of producing fast, balanced, affordable powerful cars and trucks. The SVT Lightening was the fastest production truck on the road til the SRT-10 Ram came out.

The SVT Contour was a sick little ride and very affordable. A guy in my hometown wrapped his around a lightpole doing 120 coming off of an offramp.

One thing for sure is that you will see miniscule SVT badging on the GT500 Mustang.

*Edited to satisfy Blackout.

Blackout
05-27-06, 09:38 PM
One thing for sure is that you don't see an SVT badge on the GT500 Mustang.It says SVT on the valve cover and on the center cap on the wheels

Zorb750
05-28-06, 09:00 PM
M does make an automatic. The new M5 is a 7 speed SMG. The 6MT is coming out this fall.

My vote, The M division of BMW. Close 2nd, V-Series from Cadillac (but I'm biased).


Where's the Automatic in this picture? The SMG can operate automatically but it is NOT an automatic transmission.

ChicagoCTS32
05-29-06, 02:15 PM
Zorb:


definitely M....they only do cars that are out of the box pure handling cars...not like SRT or SS that does SUV's.....M only does manuals and no SUV's.....

If it "can" operate automatically, then it is an automatic transmission. If it has a clutch and individually selectable gears, it's a manual.

Blackout
05-29-06, 06:00 PM
Then what about F1 paddle shifters on Ferrari's and Lambo's?

ChicagoCTS32
05-29-06, 08:29 PM
focus blackout, focus. come back around on topic. But since you insist on arguing something that you're wrong on, here's the information.

From ferrariusa.com: The 612 Scagletti uses a new development of Ferrari's renowned six speed paddle shift manual transmission that can be used in fully automatic mode.

Lamborghini doesn't have quite as much information on their website, but this is from edmunds.com: e.gear also works remarkably well when put into full "Auto" mode and left to figure things out on its own.

AsAkAs
05-29-06, 09:42 PM
Zorb:



If it "can" operate automatically, then it is an automatic transmission. If it has a clutch and individually selectable gears, it's a manual.

IN the case of the SMG and other similar systems like Audi's DSG, there is a clutch, there is no torque converter. It is a manual system, that can operate as an automatic with no input from the driver, but it is, in essence a manual transmission.

ChicagoCTS32
05-29-06, 09:59 PM
It is also, in essence, an automatic transmission that requires no input from the driver.

I'm not knocking any SMG, DSG, F1, etc transmission. They're awesome feats of engineering and can shift faster than any human. I drove an A3 with the DSG and it is sick. The point of my initial post was to address the "M only makes manuals". So if you take the literal sequential manual gearbox, then I am wrong, but if you ask any gearhead if SMG, DSG, or F1 tranny is a manual, you'll get an earful.

Zorb750
05-30-06, 03:06 AM
An automatic transmission uses entirely different technology and uses a torque converter im place of a clutch mechanism. Most SMGs use a multi stage wet clutching system. The SMG in automatic operation does not have the torque converter or any other inefficiencies found in an automatic transmission. You cannot classify it as an automatic when its actual workings have more in common with a manual transmission.

ChicagoCTS32
05-30-06, 03:05 PM
It is also difficult to classify it as a manual transmission when it requires no input from the driver.

Blackout
05-30-06, 04:00 PM
It is also difficult to classify it as a manual transmission when it requires no input from the driver.Well I think you already have your mid made up as to what is an automatic and what is a manual. So basically no matter what anyone says they are wrong and you are right. Fair assessment?:confused:

ChicagoCTS32
05-30-06, 08:23 PM
Well I think you already have your mid made up as to what is an automatic and what is a manual. So basically no matter what anyone says they are wrong and you are right. Fair assessment?:confused:

One could say the same about you and Zorb.

Blackout
05-31-06, 05:25 AM
One could say the same about you and Zorb.i said one thing. I'm not the one who went to different websites to try and prove me wrong. I wasn't the one who has done about 10 posts telling all of us what a automatic and a manual is:thepan: