: Not Nearly As Hard As I Thought



1993 eldorado green1
04-02-06, 07:34 PM
well after about 2 1/2 hours work i have the motor all tore down and can see for sure that the timing is off. it appears as if one of the cams are off by 2 teeth. this job byfar was easier than i thought it would be.

i had absolutly no problem tearing the engine apart to actually view everything. all i need to do now is find the timing marks and re-align it and put her back together. i have taken pictures in the process and i will post em up asap.

if anyone here can scan the timing marks for me i that would be aswome. i am hopeing to have this done tonite and im gonna try to fire this thing up and see how it runs..

wish me luck! :)

eldorado1
04-02-06, 07:57 PM
question - how do you know it's out of time if you don't know where the timing marks are?

Ranger
04-02-06, 08:20 PM
I hope you are using a FSM. I recall our old guru once giving someone a lengthy discription on how to set the timing. It was somewhat involved as I recall.

parts68
04-02-06, 09:36 PM
I would also rotate the engine both clock wise and counter clockwise to check for chain stretch,timing change.
I would help you with timing marks but dont have a way to get them from FSM to you.

1993 eldorado green1
04-02-06, 09:49 PM
well, there is some question as to how exactly it is suppost to be set and im gonna have to do some research to figure that 1 out. i know that this motor changes timing every 7 revolutions right? so what i have been doing for the last 1hour is rotating the motor by hand and looking at the marks and heres what i came up with.

i think it is suppost to be as follows,

ok, you are looking at the side of the car, actually sitting on the ground on the side of the car looking at the crank. i know for sure that the crank and the intermediat sprocket are suppost to line up dot2dot.

no matter how many times i rotate the motor over when i get dot2dot it takes 7 revoloutions. what i am seeing on the cams is this,

1 either there not even close to being on
2 or the right head cams are as follows, the intake cam has a longer slot that is at 12oclock with the head.

the exhaust cam on the right head is also at 12oclock but with the small dot at 12oclock.

the rear or left head exhaust cam is at 12oclock with small dot up top and the intake cam is advanced 2 teeth with the longer slot being near 12oclock.


in every sequence that left intake cam is advanced 2 teeth, no matter how many times i rotate the motor it is still off byh 2 teeth.

the only question at this point is, is it suppost to be like the right head? intake cam with small dot at 12oclock and exhaust cam longer slot at 12oclock?

if so then all i need to do is loosen the tentioner on the rear chain and rotate that intake cam back 2 teeth and it should be a done deal..

any thoughts? i swear im gonna have to mail all you guys a 6pack for all these questions i keep asking..

eldorado1
04-02-06, 10:40 PM
what's this dot you're talking about? The camshaft keys are what you line up to perpendicular to the head surface. The only dots you line up are on the primary chain sprockets. You should be able to line those sprockets' timing marks up every revolution. However, due to the odd number tooth sprockets on the secondary chains, it will take several revolutions before everything lines up 90 degrees to the head.

chevelle
04-02-06, 11:29 PM
Your observations are correct. Every 7 revolutions of the crank the crank and intermediate sprocket marks will line up. However, if everything is in time and you turn the crank 7 times the intermediate/crank sprocket marks will come back into line but the cams will show 180 off. Turn the crank 7 more times and the intermdiate/crank will be back in time (as expected...every 7 revolutions of the crank) and now the cams will be correct also. The cam timing marks come back into the correct spot at 12:00 (relative to the cam cover sealing surface) every 14 revolutions of the crank.

This is because of the odd number of teeth on the sprockets and the fact that the intermediate sprockets are deliverately designed with partial step down ratio to avoid any timing drive harmonic problems with the timing drive that would destroy the chains and make the drive noisy.


Regardless of all the marks in the system if you take out number 1 spark plug and use a dial indicator down the spark plug port to set the piston at exactly TDC (firing) the cams should be in time and the marks should be at 12:00 on the cam sprockets.

If three of the cams are at 12:00 relative to the cam cover sealing surface and one isn't then that cam is definitely out of time.

The exact same sprockets are used on the intake and exhaust cams. To account for the different timing requirements the sprockets are marked with the two different timing pin slots (the I and E beside the slots) showing which slot to install on the cam pin whether it is an intake cam or exhuast cam. The marks follow along with the slots marked I and E. When the cams are in time at TDC the timing pins on the cams will be at 12:00 as will the timing marks on the perimter of the cam if the correct slot is used for the intallation (I or E) and the engine is in time.

1993 eldorado green1
04-03-06, 01:34 AM
Your observations are correct. Every 7 revolutions of the crank the crank and intermediate sprocket marks will line up. However, if everything is in time and you turn the crank 7 times the intermediate/crank sprocket marks will come back into line but the cams will show 180 off. Turn the crank 7 more times and the intermdiate/crank will be back in time (as expected...every 7 revolutions of the crank) and now the cams will be correct also. The cam timing marks come back into the correct spot at 12:00 (relative to the cam cover sealing surface) every 14 revolutions of the crank.

This is because of the odd number of teeth on the sprockets and the fact that the intermediate sprockets are deliverately designed with partial step down ratio to avoid any timing drive harmonic problems with the timing drive that would destroy the chains and make the drive noisy.


Regardless of all the marks in the system if you take out number 1 spark plug and use a dial indicator down the spark plug port to set the piston at exactly TDC (firing) the cams should be in time and the marks should be at 12:00 on the cam sprockets.

If three of the cams are at 12:00 relative to the cam cover sealing surface and one isn't then that cam is definitely out of time.

The exact same sprockets are used on the intake and exhaust cams. To account for the different timing requirements the sprockets are marked with the two different timing pin slots (the I and E beside the slots) showing which slot to install on the cam pin whether it is an intake cam or exhuast cam. The marks follow along with the slots marked I and E. When the cams are in time at TDC the timing pins on the cams will be at 12:00 as will the timing marks on the perimter of the cam if the correct slot is used for the intallation (I or E) and the engine is in time.


sweet, that saved me some time to try to get pics of the marks, thank you! next question, do you think 2 teeth is gonna be enough for the valves to hit the pistons? i certainly hope not because this is how the motor was fired and ran until i got the car. the good thing is it was only driven like 3 miles like this.

how about releasing the tentioners? that little pin, do u pull it or what? all i need to do is release the chain tensioner on the rear head and move the intake cam sproket and i can button her back up. i WILL drive this thing tomorrow...

danbuc
04-03-06, 08:08 PM
Here's the pages for setting Cam timing right out of the service manual, in case you needed some visual representation...
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c48/danbuc/Engine-timing-page-one.jpg

danbuc
04-03-06, 08:09 PM
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c48/danbuc/Engine-timing-page-two.jpg

danbuc
04-03-06, 08:09 PM
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c48/danbuc/Engine-timing-page-three.jpg

1993 eldorado green1
04-04-06, 12:28 AM
great photos thank you! well shes up and running again and i must say smooth as glass!!!!!!! no more raw fuel smell, no more horrible idle either. the cam was off 3 teeth! unfortunatly it still has that freaking p083 code and i cant figure out why but im not givving up. i will figure this out and like now, i wanna drive it.

i have pics that im gonna post tomorrow. thanks for all the responses and help i needed it. as soon as i get this all figured out i am gonna do a formal write up for future reference.

1993 eldorado green1
04-04-06, 05:01 PM
http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c361/james131gc/cadillac001.jpg







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http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c361/james131gc/cadillac003.jpg









http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c361/james131gc/cadillac004.jpg

1993 eldorado green1
04-04-06, 05:13 PM
http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c361/james131gc/2027.jpg









http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c361/james131gc/2026.jpg









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http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c361/james131gc/2020.jpg

eldorado1
04-04-06, 05:35 PM
unfortunatly it still has that freaking p083 code and i cant figure out why but im not givving up.

Told you it wasn't the cam timing. :p

I still think it's the wiring or the ignition module. I still have to believe it's most likely the wiring.

1993 eldorado green1
04-04-06, 06:46 PM
Told you it wasn't the cam timing. :p

I still think it's the wiring or the ignition module. I still have to believe it's most likely the wiring.


no, it was the cam timing, it was off 3 teeth. it would idle so badly it would shake your teeth fillings loose and smoke and it smelled like raw fuel.

now the idle is smooth as glass and the stink is gone! the exhaust actually smells "normal " now..

i need to figure out that damn code! im outside working on it right now. i cant tell if the icm is getting all the peramiters that its looking for or not as i dont have access to the mitchell until tomorrow. in gonna check the resistance on the cam sensor right now and the power and ground to the icm.

as it is right now it will not start with both crank sensors plugged in and i get "no pcm codes" if i unhook 1 of the crank sensors it will fire right up and i get that p083 code.

ill tell ya, some absolute fool was in here at 1 time messing around with the wiring, it is 1 mess after the next that im fixing as i go.

i also found a fuel line clamp that was loose spraying some fuel into the intake valley, nice huh?

well, im back at it ill post later with my findings..

1993 eldorado green1
04-04-06, 09:11 PM
well after further thought and testing heres what i come up with,

1 it will only run with 1 crank sensor hooked up and shows p083 code

2 with booth crank sensors hooked up it shows no codes but wont spark

3 someone has hard wired the fuel pump to run all the time

4 the security light stays on while the car is running

im wondering if maybe that security light has something to do with all this? its odd that its on and will never shut off. its the only thing i can come up with that makes any sense to me. if the car is not seeing the correct vats siginal it wouldnt want to run right? i know that gm will not run the fuel pump or spark if there is a problem with the vats system. someone hard wired that fuel pump for a reason.

is there anyway to check the bcm codes on this thing? i need to see why that security light is staying on, i think it will answer my problem with the no spark..

zonie77
04-05-06, 09:32 AM
The VATS system is pretty easy to defeat. There are instructions on the web and it might be in tech tips.It's soldering a resistor to bypass the key. You have to determine the correct resistor though.

dkozloski
04-05-06, 02:37 PM
The VATS system shuts off the fuel pump so that's why the pump is rigged. Put it back like it's supposed to be, take the VIN and the registration to the dealer and get the right key. Once you start trying to monkey your way around the security system it's like wiping your butt with a hoop; there's no end to it.

1993 eldorado green1
04-05-06, 05:24 PM
The VATS system shuts off the fuel pump so that's why the pump is rigged. Put it back like it's supposed to be, take the VIN and the registration to the dealer and get the right key. Once you start trying to monkey your way around the security system it's like wiping your butt with a hoop; there's no end to it.



LMAO thats good! i found out the correct vats code today from the dealer and sure enough mine was not right so i went ahead and got a new key and still nothing! the security light went off but it still wont start. i guess im gonna find the fuel pump relay and try to put it back to stock and go from there.

anyone have an idea where it might be located at? 95 ETC well, ill be outside working on it somore trying to get it right, chime in with suggestions anytime now, lololol

parts68
04-05-06, 07:01 PM
I did a VATS Pass Key 2 rig a few years ago when I did an engine transplant in our sons 83 S10 Blazer 4x4.
I used drivetrain from a 94 camaro and it was looking for the key resistor to fire the injectors.
I got the passkey module from a donor car and was lucky enough that it still had key in the ignition,so I got the ole Fluke out and read the resistor.
I then put a mini toggle switch under the dash somewhat hidden and wired the resistor in series with the passkey module.
For theft deterrent I just flip the switch.
Someone will make 3 attempts and it will lock them out,even if they find the switch and put it in proper position.
I didnt wire the starter enable into this so it will crank but wont get fuel to injectors.I would put noids on the injectors to see if they are getting a hit.
The VATS will keep them from firing if its not happy.

1993 eldorado green1
04-05-06, 07:39 PM
well, as i said a little while ago, i found the proper key at the dealership today. in my findings tonite i found something interesting. the security light is off but i noticed something else.

when i turn on the key to start but dont crank the ses light does not come on! i had this exact same problem with my 96 camaro z28. i was never able to figure out why it did this but i do know that if i took a switched power wire and ran it to a small orange wire under the steering column it would start like normal.

as soon as i noticed this i started to trace wires and to my surprise i found that this car has had this problem for some time! it has a junkyard pcm in it and it has tons of electrical tape on the wires, i removed the tape and i could see where someone had been in there with the test light poking wires.

i still cant find where they hot wired the fuel pump at but i will get the proper wiring diagrams tomorrow and start the b/s task of rewiring the electrical system.

it seems to be a common problem on these gm cars around the same year because i have seen this on other cars too. on my camaro i changed the pcm,bcm,ipc, and the full wiring harness from front to back and it still would not fire up the car. theres gotta be a pcm relay thats bad or something.

if you can think of a pcm relay or something that would cause this please chime in. also i should add, this car has a brand new icm and ignition switch to rule those out as possibilitys. there is several post up on here reguarding this car and these problems but i will keep answering to this post..

i will get the entire wiring diagram tomorrow from the mitchell on demand 5 and see what i can find as far as power wires and such.

as always thank you in advance for all replies!!

eldorado1
04-05-06, 08:44 PM
I would spend the $50 and buy a junkyard harness, and swap that in... seriously. Electrical tape doesn't belong on automotive wiring. Heat shrink tubing or nothing. Who's to say he didn't just twist some wires together, and it unraveled, causing your problem?

dkozloski
04-05-06, 10:18 PM
There are two things that need to be taken away from mechanics and never given back; black electricians tape and silicon sealer. Both just make a hell of a mess out of a good job.

1993 eldorado green1
04-05-06, 11:19 PM
I would spend the $50 and buy a junkyard harness, and swap that in... seriously. Electrical tape doesn't belong on automotive wiring. Heat shrink tubing or nothing. Who's to say he didn't just twist some wires together, and it unraveled, causing your problem?


that is up in the air still. so far i havnt found any wires that have been cut or anything, just taped the harnesses where they were testing the wires ya know?

1993 eldorado green1
04-07-06, 02:39 PM
still havent figured it out yet, im going outside right now to start working on it sommore though, it has managed to officially piss me right off. i still cant find where they bypassed the fuelpump to run all the time.

i think that thats gonna be where the problem is. im going outside to do some more testing and ill write back with my findings..

blb
04-08-06, 11:11 AM
Is the reason the fuel pump runs all the time, because the fuel pump relay is stuck or shorted in closed position?

1993 eldorado green1
04-08-06, 04:09 PM
Is the reason the fuel pump runs all the time, because the fuel pump relay is stuck or shorted in closed position?


nope i found the wire last nite. they had the fuel ran to switched power from the relay center in the trunk. i removed their wire and sure enough the fuel pump runs the way its suppost to. i cant understand why somebody hard wired the pump when it is functioning properly.

i still am trying to figure out the no start issue and im gonna be trying a used pcm monday.

i just took the car out today and got 4 new tires, rotors, calipers, pads and some other things, it rides alot nicer now. right now im going to put a fresh coat of wax on her and try to figure out this s062 code. im not sure if its a shock or just the sensor. i will be testing the values of the sensor and see what i come up with.

i noticed that the transmission shifts really oddly, im not sure if its because of the ses light being on or because of the s062 code. when i start it up it says "traction dissabled" then it says "service ride control system" the only coes i get is i032 i think and the s062.

i hope there releated and i can kill the 2 birds with 1 stone. ill repost later on with my findings..

1993 eldorado green1
04-09-06, 08:43 PM
well, ive had enough with this wiring mess on this car!!! i had to remove the airbox assembly today to gain access to the trans filler and what do i see? well someone had actually removed the plug from the tcs/abs pump there and cut the whole plug off!!!! the hole plug is gone and i can see wires cut everywhere. im not a happy camper at this point. i did find a 94 etc in a junkyard that appears to be "unmolested" and the wiring is in great shape. im going to bring it home tomorrow and strip it down to the nitty gritty.

i will be removing the entire wiring harness, cylinder heads, transmission, abs/tcs pump and a few other things. my plan is too have those heads rebuilt and to get a time-sert kit and do my engine and put the new heads on my engine.

obviously while it is all apart im gonna take that other trans and have it rebuilt at a local trans shop that i deal with.

i have been kicking around the possibilty of rebuilding the lower end on my engine but it is in good shape and with 119k it should last for awhile longer. basically the car will have a complete new trans and time-serted engine and the abs/tcs pump. i will also replace all the wiring from the firewall forward and see if it takes care of that no start p083 issue i have been having.

im hopeing to have this all completed within the next three weeks, just in time for the summer crusing, then i WILL keep this car for atleast another 150k!!!

wish me luck, ill post as soon as i start the whole process, hopefully tomorrow...

zonie77
04-09-06, 09:02 PM
1993, Dude! You are gonna be the new Guru!:thumbsup:

1993 eldorado green1
04-10-06, 09:20 PM
1993, Dude! You are gonna be the new Guru!:thumbsup:


well thanks for the flowers! :) but i could NEVER be as good as some of the old gurus ive seen on here, 1 in perticular ( im sure u know who ) was the best i have ever seen. i am simply thoughing parts at a broken car in hopes to fix it up. the wiring harness is a must!

i have located a 93-94 ETC car that im suppost to bring home tomorrow and start ripping her apart. i can only hope that the wiring harnesses under the hood are the same. they appear to be and i believe that my 93 had the same rss suspention as my 95 does.

i will do 1 final check over to make sure the wiring is the same and if so i will start possibly tomorrow nite. i got a bench price to do a performance rebuild on the trans from a shop that i tow for, 400.00!! and get this 2 year unliminted miles warranty!!!!! thats super sweet!!

all i need to do now is to find a time-sert kit or order 1 and get the heads up to the shop for a fresh rebuild.

i am hoping now to have the new motor,trans and wiring harness installed in 2 weeks tops. it should be like a new car when im done, hell i might even go up 2 the dealership and buy 4 factory brand new struts while im at it :)

1993 eldorado green1
04-11-06, 05:42 PM
oohhh, oohhh it is tuesday and the donar car is here, it is still on the back of my tow truck right now, i need to take it up and clean the motor compartment out then im gonna start ripping it apart. ill have pics up tonite of the donor car.

the donor car specs are as follows,

1 1994 eldorado, its NOT an ETC

2 it has never been apart or doesnt appear to ever have been

3 it has a blown lower end

4 i am taking everything before i return it to the yard which should be by saturday

i hope it has the same wiring harness that my 95 ETC has, im gonna check for the foglight plugs and such tonite when shes in the garage. i will be starting work tomorrow after work on it. wish me luck, pics will be up in an hour!!!!!




as promisseb, here are the donor car pictures,







http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c361/james131gc/donorcaddy002.jpg












http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c361/james131gc/donorcaddy001.jpg











http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c361/james131gc/donorcaddy004.jpg











http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c361/james131gc/donorcaddy006.jpg











http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c361/james131gc/donorcaddy010.jpg















http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c361/james131gc/donorcaddy007.jpg











http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c361/james131gc/donorcaddy012.jpg

auroradude
04-11-06, 11:02 PM
i think someone triedt o steal that car at some point...someone was really determined to hot wire it. Nice pics and i wish i had the skills like you do to rip tht thing apart, I would rebuild everything in my car front to back if I could do that...i have the money heh.

1993 eldorado green1
04-12-06, 12:40 AM
i think someone triedt o steal that car at some point...someone was really determined to hot wire it. Nice pics and i wish i had the skills like you do to rip tht thing apart, I would rebuild everything in my car front to back if I could do that...i have the money heh.

its all about memory. anyone could do it if u can remember how to put it back together. i used to be a mechanic in 00 but i didnt like all the stress.
i think these projects are fun..

1993 eldorado green1
04-12-06, 08:34 PM
UPDATE:::::


Well after about 2 1/2 hours of work its ready to come out, i will pull it tomorrow afternoon, i didnt get started until about 7pm and its 915 right now, not too bad.

here is some pics of the stage 1 removal process,








http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c361/james131gc/donorcaddyremovalstep1007.jpg







http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c361/james131gc/donorcaddyremovalstep1005.jpg









http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c361/james131gc/donorcaddyremovalstep1004.jpg









http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c361/james131gc/donorcaddyremovalstep1003.jpg









http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c361/james131gc/donorcaddyremovalstep1002.jpg









http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c361/james131gc/donorcaddyremovalstep1001.jpg

96-deville-man
04-12-06, 10:22 PM
Looks good. kinda wish it was me doin all this stuff. i would be like a kid in a candy store. you should see about porting those heads! good luck hope it works out.

cl1986
04-14-06, 11:26 PM
93, what started all this?? who put the timing all wrong?? Did you just find the car or what??

1993 eldorado green1
04-15-06, 01:35 AM
93, what started all this?? who put the timing all wrong?? Did you just find the car or what??


i got it from an 80 year old man who decided to replace the headgaskets. he didnt time sert and didnt set the timing right. the wiring was someone elses work from years ago, it will be mint when im done :)

1993 eldorado green1
04-15-06, 01:37 AM
more pictures as promised. took me 3 hours and it was on the ground...






http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c361/james131gc/engineremovalstep2007.jpg








http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c361/james131gc/engineremovalstep2004.jpg







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http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c361/james131gc/engineremovalstep2009.jpg









http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c361/james131gc/engineremovalstep2011.jpg










http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c361/james131gc/engineremovalstep2012.jpg









pretty cool i think, much easier than i thought it was gonna be. ill have more pics up tomorrow or sunday....

parts68
04-15-06, 08:36 AM
going back in is the hard part

zonie77
04-15-06, 11:00 AM
pretty cool i think, much easier than i thought it was gonna be. ill have more pics up tomorrow or sunday....


I agree...a lot of guys freak at dropping the cradle, it is easier than trying to pull it. Great pics.:thumbsup:

1993 eldorado green1
04-15-06, 12:31 PM
I agree...a lot of guys freak at dropping the cradle, it is easier than trying to pull it. Great pics.:thumbsup:


well, i have dropped cradles before but they were 4 cylinder cars with 2 piece cradles and they were a pain in the u know what!! this was a different story it came out vey easily and i cant see a problem getting it back in either, using the tow truck boom REALLY makes these jobs easier ill tell ya.

i am going to start ripping apart the 95 tomorrow and ill post pics of that one as well. 1 thing i found on here is that alot of threads dont have good pics so i will try to post tons of them for furture references.

i was down right scared when i started reading post on here about doing the headgaskets, then when i looked in the mitchell and it called for 13 hours to remove the engine i thought, OMG!!! now that it is already out and stripped im like, easy i would do it again 10 times if i had too..

parts68
04-15-06, 09:27 PM
IM sure that labor is R&R