: 500 in '89 Brougham....



Night Wolf
03-23-06, 09:24 PM
What exactly is involved in swapping a 472/500 into an '89 307 Brougham? I mean like all the little stuff.... The TH400 would be used as well... what about the driveshaft from the Brougham, and would the 2.54 (?) 7.5" rear in the Brougham be fine at first?

Motor mounts would need to be taking from a 368/425 RWD, right? What about all the little BS stuff... accessories, vaccum canister etc..... basically what would be all the things needed to go thru with the swap?

Benzilla
03-23-06, 10:22 PM
This is a 500 in a '80 Brougham so it had the 368, but I thought it still might help in some way http://www.mcsmk8.com/80CAD-500/MAVICA.HTM the guy knows a lot about caddys.

BTW, you need to post up some pics of the '89, all the old topics that it was in are now blank. thanks.

Night Wolf
03-24-06, 12:14 AM
I have known about that guy for quite some time....

that had a 368 like you said, so much like the 425 in my '79... a 500 was more stright forward...

the '89 has the Olds 307, not a Cad engine, so its a bit more involved... thats where I just wanted to know what needed to be changed. My '79 would have probably been good for parts for the swap, but its a way off in the future.

I don't have the Brougham yet, that in itself is some time away.... I should have it in less then 6 months, but it all depends.

I am jus trying to judge if it would make sense to hold off with the 307 and 200R4 for a while until a fully built 500/TH400 is ready to go in, or just get ahold of a running 500, throw a cam in it, my modified intake manifold, rebuild the carb and put it in.... then some time in the future it would get pulled again and get a complete overhaul....

... thats what I am trying to plan out. I am very limited on the actual work I can do because of space and whatnot.

The 307 runs fine, it has a new carburator, which made it quite peppy. It does have near around 200k miles on it tho, but, it still runs fine. The 200R4 was rebuilt about 60k miles ago, give or take... the speedo is broke so miles are unknown.

The car needs alot of work... when I really think about it tho, the worst parts are the body... has its share of dings and light dents (my mother coudln't stop driving into things) and the paint is in really bad shape. Also the drivers seat is all ripped up as well as both front armrests... it needs some work, but still has alot of potential.

The car was one of those dealer aftermarket specials... but normally, while I really don't like them... it works on this car. Why? I dunno, maybe because it has been in my life for so long. When she bought this car with ~80k on it from Florida 8 years ago, it was nearly mint in every way... so I know how it looked when it would gleam like new.

Of the aftermarket stuff, it has the gold badge package, hand painted pin strips, black fabric roof, moon roof, remote keyless entry/alarm, silver/gold rolls royce grille, real spoked wheels (they were on the '79... I still have them), kinda custom interior because of the black poping on the seats.

I have never seen another light grey, with black fabric top car... plus the interior is a very nice neutral color that dosn't really age... the grey/black piping is a very nice combo.

an Olds 455 has crossed my mind, as it would be a more bolt in swap... and I could use the V8-6-4 stuff since they fit... but.... I dunno, as much as I like Olds, I am biased to the big block Cads... I like them alot, and miss having one... 472/500 it is.

Since these pics are quite old now, some stuff has changed... there are now 4 new (used) body filler panels that are painted to match. the right rear side marker lens was replaced (since it was warped from rotted out resontaor causing exhaust gases to melt it), my mother hit a stump on the passenger side, denting both doors at the bottom.... the rear bumper has a slight dent and is rusting, the front bumper is dented, tho not really an issue at the time (I was in the car when she hit that) and there is a rust spot over the rear wheel that needs to be fixed. Oh, it now has a nice full set of late 80's Brougham Cadillac hubcaps.

The car has alot of new stuff tho.... AC system, tho it still dosn't work... new carb, tranny cooler, new radiator, new windsheild, somewhat fresh tranny, new headliner (they did a crappy job) new air shocks, rear springs replaced with cargo springs... raised the back end a bit, better stance, more durable. new wiper motor, nice Kenwood cd player (may go into next car she gets tho)...more stuff like this....

of the problems... driver power seat dosn't work... my mother is short and the seat is like all the way up, totally uncomfortable.. that'll be fixed. cruise control dosn't work, front power windows are kinda slow, may replace motors. typical climate control issue with these cars.... more little things...

Here are some pictures:

http://inoventionseast.com/1979%20DeVille/New%20Folder%20(2)/PDR_0020.JPG

http://inoventionseast.com/1979%20DeVille/New%20Folder%20(2)/PDR_0019.JPG

The rust over the rear wheel, its gotten worse now.. but not thru the body... that'll be of the first to get grinded down and primed. The stuff around it is some rust stopper spray stuff I tried... didn't work too well, and it ran like crazy.

http://inoventionseast.com/1979%20DeVille/New%20Folder%20(2)/PDR_0024.JPG

The beastly 307, lol. The engine bay, while dirty...is clean.... yeah. No rust and stuff, it would clean up nice with engine cleaner and a pressure washer. I gotta say, with the new carb, and new TV cable for the trans... it snaps into gear nice and it is quite peppy for the 307... I could definitly live with it. Funny to note tho, the 307 is a PITA to work on, whereas the 425 was really easy.... one thing I don't like is the computer controlled carb... why have a computer kinda setup for FI running a mechanical carb? It has an O2 sensor, TPS etc.... oh well....

http://inoventionseast.com/1979%20DeVille/New%20Folder%20(2)/PDR_0032.JPG

Both armrests are worse now... they are beyond repair, so I'd have to get new armrests, then get the color matched. Other then that the door panels are in nice shape.... Some of the weather stripping is bad, tho I guess it isn't all that bad... the weather stripping on the trunk could be replaced tho.

http://inoventionseast.com/1979%20DeVille/New%20Folder%20(2)/PDR_0035.JPG

Carpet needs a good cleaning/shampoo, it may be able to be saved... the floor mats are kinda shot. The seat looks like it'll need alot of the leather replaced... the leather on the steering wheel turned to a nasty stickey carcus... it now has a cover on it, probably stay that way.

http://inoventionseast.com/1979%20DeVille/New%20Folder%20(2)/PDR_0036.JPG

I really like the embroiderd wreaths... more ripped leather, you can see the nice contrast with the black piping... both front seats could probably be restuffed with foam as you can see some sagging in the bottom part... tho its still quite comfortable. The center armrest is worn, tho not ripped... fine for the time being.

http://inoventionseast.com/1979%20DeVille/New%20Folder%20(2)/PDR_0037.JPG

DopeStar 156
03-24-06, 12:38 AM
I like your mom's car. It looks like with a little work it could be made into a really nice car. Does she still have it? I wish I had an '89 Brougham.....

Night Wolf
03-24-06, 12:46 AM
I have the light lens with both the wreath and crest, they'll go on inplace of the plain square ones... also need another arm rest.

http://inoventionseast.com/1979%20DeVille/New%20Folder%20(2)/PDR_0038.JPG

http://inoventionseast.com/1979%20DeVille/New%20Folder%20(2)/PDR_0039.JPG

Nice feature. Desipte being aftermarket, its been problem-free.... I think it has slowed down a little, so I need to take a look at it, probably can live with it, but I wonder if the motor could be replaced int he future.

http://inoventionseast.com/1979%20DeVille/New%20Folder%20(2)/PDR_0040.JPG

The black fabric top... kinda has some fade/stains on it now, maybe it could be cleaned up... I really like the color and the fact it is fbaric (not vinyl) so if it ever got replaced, it would be with the same exact thing.... actually f anything on this car got replaced, it would stay exactly how it is now... I really like it.

http://inoventionseast.com/1979%20DeVille/New%20Folder%20(2)/PDR_0041.JPG

http://inoventionseast.com/1979%20DeVille/New%20Folder%20(2)/PDR_0042.JPG

My mother was babysitting, hence the car seat. Rear seat and door panels are good.. the seat back pockets have kinda stretched out form stuff being in them, I could fix that tho.

http://inoventionseast.com/1979%20DeVille/New%20Folder%20(2)/PDR_0043.JPG

Really, the more I think about it, the more its not in nearly as bad shape as I have always kinda made it out to be... truth is, a new paint job and driver seat repair and the car would be looking better by a long shot... and really, what 17 year old car dosn't need a paint job or ripped leather fixed?

The thing is, the cost to get this car looking nice would be more then the cost to just find a mint, low mileage Brougham on ebay and buy it....

but, I am geting the car for free, it runs and drives fine, has alot of new stuff, has alot of rare and cool stuff... but most of all, I want a project... I look forward to spending a weekend to fix one thing at a time... fix the speedo one weekend, the cruise control next etc.... My '79 was a project car like that (tho it was all totally fix by the time it was wrecked) the Coupe... dosn't need anything, so then I go out of my way to replace stuff because I want to.... like, tomorrow I replace the fuel pressure regulator... not because it needs it, but because it is good to change anyway... plus... I want something to work on.

So thats the deal with the Brougham. My mother says it has been getting really bad gas mileage.. like 12, but the speedo is broke, once I fix the speedo, I'll see what its getting for mileage, it should be 16ish around town and 24ish highway, if its in that ball park, it's fine... and who knows, once I get stuff fixed on it, I may use it as a daily driver for a while... I miss having a big body, full frame, RWD car... and that has a moon roof and other neat stuff...

Also, her finace' has an '87 Brougham. That car has about 210k miles, had the tranny rebuilt maybe... 70k ago? And the engine was replaced with a brand new long block about 10k ago... that car was also from Florida, bought with about 70k on it 8 years ago. The car is showing its age tho, and Rich (mothers finace') wants a Tahoe or something, so he isn't going to be driving it much longer..... not certain yet, but I may end up with both Broughams, most likely use the '87 as parts if needed... *MAYBE* even swap the engine since that would be a direct swap... but if the 307 in my mothers car is running fine, I don't see a reason... despite the new engine, that car runs bad, nearly no power... it too has a new carb, and a new exhaust system... not sure on the problem tho.... I should spend some time looking at it. I dunno about the '87 though, thats up to him, its not worth anything in money, so maybe he'll be inclined to hold onto it.... my mother already said tho that once she moves down here later in the year and they get their newer cars, she is giving me the Brougham.... it was also going to be my first car, but money was tight and my mother wasn't able to afford a new car.... I learned how to drive in that car, and took my road test in that car.... its lived a kinda hard life - women owned, and my mother would do stuff I would never do... like park really close to the store, so it has its share of dings and stuff... but, it was maintained quite well and stuff was fixed when it broke.

Well, that was quite the.... tangent... anyway, I'd still like to get a rough idea how mch I am looking at, in terms of work... to getting a 500 and TH400 swapped into this thing....

but *IF* I did, it would be a near stock, junkyard 500, as I don't have money for a nice rebuild... so really I am thinking... would a stock 500 swap be worth it, only to pull it out in the future? or should I just live with the 307 and overdrive for the time being, get the car fixed up, then in the future when I have the time and money, do the full 500 build and whatnot?

Night Wolf
03-24-06, 12:50 AM
I like your mom's car. It looks like with a little work it could be made into a really nice car. Does she still have it? I wish I had an '89 Brougham.....

uhhh.... you do have an '89 Brougham... lol... with the super dooper 180hp 307, remmeber? :).

Yeah, she still has it, its in NY at the time... she just drove it to PA and back without any issue at all... the long highway driving was good for it.... this Summer Rich and I fly up to NY (I only get 11 days off) and he and my mother will drive her Brougham, towing my small utility trailer (yeah it has a Class II hitch and electronic trailer brake controller) with some stuff for them, and I'll be driving my Oldsmobile Delta 88 down with our 2 cats (who will be living with me in my apartment) Sometime after she moves down here, and they sell her house in NY, is when they'll get new, used cars... and I get the Brougham.

I remember when it was new, witht he nice spoked wheels I had on the '79, the paint would shine, the top was a deep black, the grille would sparkle with gold and silver.... it was by far one of the sharpest Broughams around....

DopeStar 156
03-24-06, 01:37 AM
uhhh.... you do have an '89 Brougham... lol... with the super dooper 180hp 307, remmeber? :).
*Looks out window* Oh wow! Santa came early this year! :bouncy:

I think you should take your mom's car when she's ready to give it up. It's gonna have all that mommy love in it...... I'm gonna go hug my mom, she's still awake anyway.... Haha.

Night Wolf
03-24-06, 01:52 AM
*Looks out window* Oh wow! Santa came early this year! :bouncy:

I think you should take your mom's car when she's ready to give it up. It's gonna have all that mommy love in it...... I'm gonna go hug my mom, she's still awake anyway.... Haha.

Dopes been drinkin.... or smokin.... something.....

DopeStar 156
03-24-06, 02:05 AM
Hey I love my mom! (For the time being, I'm sure she'll piss me off tomorrow.) If I were you I'd just bear with the 307 for a while and wait until you got the cash and space set aside for an engine swap. It's not THAAAAAAAAAT bad. Hahahaa!!

Night Wolf
03-24-06, 02:12 AM
Yeah, thats what I am thinking.... pplus the gear ratios of the 200R4 and the rear diff kinda make up for the power... and with a smaller engine and overdrive, it brings the fuel mileage closer to what the Coupe gets...

I haven't been in that car for quite some time, I mean, since I got my license, almost 3 years ago I have only spent a handful of hours in the car... I don't remember how it rides on the highway.....

if it is as smooth and trouble free as my '79 was (that trip was amazing) then I'll be much more inclined to holding onto the 307 for now... the 203 and 200R4 is a nice combo for the highway.... if I can tune it up to get the 23 or 24ish mpg on the highway it should get, then damn, I'll be really happy......

Still tho, that engine has almost 200k on it... tho I suppose if I do fell inclined to keep the 307 for the time being, and the '87 Brougham ends up staying around, that does have a new engine....

Still tho, I am trying to see how much is involved in doing the swap...

DopeStar 156
03-24-06, 02:19 AM
On the highway it's pretty decent. Mine holds hills perfectly fine and everything. It moves just fine really. Knowing you you'll mod the poop outta that engine and make it quicker.

Jonas McFeely
03-24-06, 03:46 AM
I have that same grille in same condition(its kinda faded).I have the newer one on my car.Thats the 2nd one i've ever seen though.Pretty ok car,needs some TLC obviously.I think its got potential,plus youve got the Astroroof,that in itself is worth fixing up the car.I have never seen the black cloth top on any Brougham,so i assume thats a dealer add on.Other than that cool car.

I actually wanted to put a 350 in my Brougham.But the 500 is just so much more unique and cool now that i look at it.Whats the specs on those and are there any after market parts for them?

davesdeville
03-24-06, 05:02 AM
There is a full range of aftermarket parts for 500s. And you already start out a honda-and-a-half of displacement above a 350.

If I didn't have an engine lift or easy access to one, I would get a JY 500, save up a grand and do forged pistons and rods, then swap it in virtually stock. Start with a really solid bottom end, then later you can worry about the cam/valvetrain/heads/etc without pulling the engine again.

As far as the actual swap goes, find a 77-81 RWD BBCad parts donor car, use the accessory drive from that. I'm sure you already know where one is...

Night Wolf
03-24-06, 10:53 AM
On the highway it's pretty decent. Mine holds hills perfectly fine and everything. It moves just fine really. Knowing you you'll mod the poop outta that engine and make it quicker.

Well, theres really not much to do to the 307... the biggest draw back is that it is sipping out of straws... alot of head work is what the 307 really needs, and that is way more then I am willing to put into a 307.... Truth is, for as long as the 307 stays, I'll just deal with the power until the swap is done. With the new carb, it is quite peppy... almost spins the tires from a stop :). The trans is shifting really nice now, almost like it has a shift kit... so I can deal with it for the time being...

a 403 would be a direct swap too... but really, if anything gets swapped in that thing its a 472 or a 500.... the '79 is gone, that was my big block Caddy sleeper project... well, now that I'll be acquiring the '89 Brougham, the plans have moved on to this car.... Minus the classic factor of the '79 and the fact that the car had more character/personality (which it did) plus the sweet d'Elegance interior.... I do like the Brougham, in general... more... I kind have always did... I made myself like the '79, and it worked well, because I really liked that car... I just remember times I thought about selling it for an '89 Brougham... and now I want a '79.... do figure.... but, I think once I get the car and start fixing it up nice and see a change for the better, after the steady decline in its condition.... will really make me feel better.... a 500 would even make the deal sweeter.... but they'll be around forever, so if needed, the engine build could be held off for a bit...

Night Wolf
03-24-06, 10:56 AM
I have that same grille in same condition(its kinda faded).I have the newer one on my car.Thats the 2nd one i've ever seen though.Pretty ok car,needs some TLC obviously.I think its got potential,plus youve got the Astroroof,that in itself is worth fixing up the car.I have never seen the black cloth top on any Brougham,so i assume thats a dealer add on.Other than that cool car.

I actually wanted to put a 350 in my Brougham.But the 500 is just so much more unique and cool now that i look at it.Whats the specs on those and are there any after market parts for them?

Everything on that car is aftermarket, including the moon roof....

I have never even considered a 350 in the Brougham... its just not happening... I kinda don't like the 350, simply because everyone has it... there is nothing special about a 350. If this car didn't get a 472 or 500, it would get an Olds 403 or 455.... but thats a long stretch.... its getting a big block Cad....

Only way I'd build a 350 in a Brougham, is if it was a '90-'92 and have the 350 option.... if it did, then yeah, I would do a performance build on the engine it has. Thats the only way.

Night Wolf
03-24-06, 11:02 AM
There is a full range of aftermarket parts for 500s. And you already start out a honda-and-a-half of displacement above a 350.

If I didn't have an engine lift or easy access to one, I would get a JY 500, save up a grand and do forged pistons and rods, then swap it in virtually stock. Start with a really solid bottom end, then later you can worry about the cam/valvetrain/heads/etc without pulling the engine again.

As far as the actual swap goes, find a 77-81 RWD BBCad parts donor car, use the accessory drive from that. I'm sure you already know where one is...

See this is what sucks....

the freakin junkyard is charging me for parts off my own car! my gosh.... maybe I'll be able to talk to a manager or something....

What accessory drive do you speak of though? I know the 425 oil pump is a better angle, so I would get that (probably end up getting a new oil pump spec'd for 425... no?) but what would I need from the 425... pullys? what else? Motor mounts... hell, I'd probably just get those new too....

So you are saying to by a running junkyard 500, and strengthen the bottom end first? Then later do a cam, head and valve work.... that way the engine could stay in the car....

so forged pistons and rods are all the 500 would need to have a really solid bottom end? crank and what not is fine?...... Would this end up being a total rebuild... hone out cylinders and what not... basically, how indepth would I go with the "forged rods and pistons" because I know how easy the snow ball effect can take place....

the local junkyard charges $100 for an engine bare, or $200 for an engine complete.... so I guess I would get a complete engine.... the only have 3 cars that (had) a 472 or 500, they are all gone... but there is about a dozen 425's.... 425 is nice, but not for my project... people know the value of a 472/500 and they are hard to snatch before other people get them....

90Brougham350
03-24-06, 11:06 AM
Yeah, I love the 350 in my '90, it pulls pretty darn good and lays a very nice patch when I ask it to, but a Caddy 500 would be pretty damned cool. I just like the SBC's because the aftermarket is so huge. But nobody really knows a whole lot about Caddy BB's, I mean, you don't ever hear much about them.

I~LUV~Caddys8792
03-24-06, 12:33 PM
Torque baby!!!

What year would you get the 500 from?

Jonas McFeely
03-24-06, 02:23 PM
Yeah, I love the 350 in my '90, it pulls pretty darn good and lays a very nice patch when I ask it to, but a Caddy 500 would be pretty damned cool. I just like the SBC's because the aftermarket is so huge. But nobody really knows a whole lot about Caddy BB's, I mean, you don't ever hear much about them.

I clicked on the link at the bottom of your sig and read all about ralph,spent about an hour or so reading alot of what happened.Damn,what a good read.What a legend...

The Ape Man
03-24-06, 04:11 PM
Look in the archives. All the info is there. If you cannot find it then send me a PM and I'll write it a forth time. Sounds like a worthwile project.

Night Wolf
03-24-06, 04:45 PM
Torque baby!!!

What year would you get the 500 from?

Any.

Not only a 500... but a 472 also.... by the time I'm done with it, it'll be a 500.... or more.... and it really woudln't mater what year, if it didn't have HEI, it would get it, and either way it would get a big kick in the pants when I am through :).

I~LUV~Caddys8792
03-24-06, 05:00 PM
Even the 190hp & 360 lb/ft '75-'76 500 would be more than enough power for a 4156lb '89 Brougham.

Night Wolf
03-24-06, 05:10 PM
They weren't really 190hp/360ft-lbs......

I~LUV~Caddys8792
03-24-06, 05:27 PM
So in all honesty, with out any mods, what are they rated?

Night Wolf
03-24-06, 06:20 PM
303hp @ 3,900RPM

468ft-lbs @ 3,300RPM

http://www.eldocountry.com/hrmtorque/hPage4.jpg

I~LUV~Caddys8792
03-24-06, 07:48 PM
Well well well.....

davesdeville
03-24-06, 08:43 PM
See this is what sucks....

the freakin junkyard is charging me for parts off my own car! my gosh.... maybe I'll be able to talk to a manager or something....

What accessory drive do you speak of though? I know the 425 oil pump is a better angle, so I would get that (probably end up getting a new oil pump spec'd for 425... no?) but what would I need from the 425... pullys? what else? Motor mounts... hell, I'd probably just get those new too....

So you are saying to by a running junkyard 500, and strengthen the bottom end first? Then later do a cam, head and valve work.... that way the engine could stay in the car....

so forged pistons and rods are all the 500 would need to have a really solid bottom end? crank and what not is fine?...... Would this end up being a total rebuild... hone out cylinders and what not... basically, how indepth would I go with the "forged rods and pistons" because I know how easy the snow ball effect can take place....

the local junkyard charges $100 for an engine bare, or $200 for an engine complete.... so I guess I would get a complete engine.... the only have 3 cars that (had) a 472 or 500, they are all gone... but there is about a dozen 425's.... 425 is nice, but not for my project... people know the value of a 472/500 and they are hard to snatch before other people get them....

Yeah you would most likely need the pullys from the 425. I'm not real familiar with the way the accessories are set up on a 307.

You'd need to check the bearing clearances, journal surfaces, bore the cylinders out to fit whatever pistons you get. The crank is fine. If you're eventually going for massive power you could do a main girdle but that's not required... But yes the point is to get a strong bottom end so you won't have to pull the whole motor again.

Destroyer
03-24-06, 08:44 PM
Everything on that car is aftermarket, including the moon roof....

I have never even considered a 350 in the Brougham... its just not happening... I kinda don't like the 350, simply because everyone has it... there is nothing special about a 350. If this car didn't get a 472 or 500, it would get an Olds 403 or 455.... but thats a long stretch.... its getting a big block Cad....

Only way I'd build a 350 in a Brougham, is if it was a '90-'92 and have the 350 option.... if it did, then yeah, I would do a performance build on the engine it has. Thats the only way.
You seem pretty bent on a big block and thats a good thing. In your case I would get a 455 Olds with "E" heads or the 472/500. The 403 would NOT give you the results you want. With a long shaft th400 you may not need to alter the driveshaft but even if you did, its pretty cheap. As long as you get the right motor mounts this should be an easy swap. You will need a bigger radiator and in time a better rear with a little more gear, 3.08 or 3.23 would be ideal for the big block, they dont need more than that. No matter which of these motor you get, make sure it is complete with all accessories. Its a royal PITA just getting the motor and hunting for the right pulleys and so forth, trust me I know.

I have had plenty of experience with the Caddy big blocks and the 455 Olds motors. They are definately stump pullers. My 67 Cutlass with a .30 over 455 and many other mods was awesome but I put big money in that motor. The best bang for the buck IMO would be to find a good running early 70's car with the big block for cheap, who cares if its smashed or rusted?, just yank the entire drivetrain and put it in your car. You may have to modify the transmission crossmember a bit but again its not a biggie. Now if you get a junkyard motor to do a full build on, I'd go with a Chevy small block as it would be cheaper.

Personally, I prefer the small block Chevy. I know "everyone" has a 350 but there is a reason for that. The cars that the big Olds and Caddy were in were monstrous, much heavier than the '89, they needed the torque just to get moving good. The big blocks also weigh a lot more, I want to make my car handle and haul. Stock big block vs stock small block the big block wins but the aftermarket for the Chevy small block is huge. Yes it will need more gear and a stall converter to get off the line good but if its built right it'll pull hard to 6000+ rpms's. Just being able to find the parts you need right away for the SBC makes it the better choice for me. Yes you could buy aftermarket parts for the BB Olds or Caddy but you are very limited and the prices are sky high. I love the BB Caddy's and BOP's but my sweetheart will always be the small Chevy as the possibilities are endless.

Night Wolf
03-24-06, 11:50 PM
Yeah you would most likely need the pullys from the 425. I'm not real familiar with the way the accessories are set up on a 307.

You'd need to check the bearing clearances, journal surfaces, bore the cylinders out to fit whatever pistons you get. The crank is fine. If you're eventually going for massive power you could do a main girdle but that's not required... But yes the point is to get a strong bottom end so you won't have to pull the whole motor again.

So all pullies from a 425?

accessories are setup strange ont he 307... it has the nwer, smaller radial compressor (R4?) not the long one GM used for decades (A4 IIRC) The 307 also has an AIR pump, and 4.... yes... 4 belts... the 425 had 2.....

Checking clearances, yeah, thats a given... I have done that a few times before...... honing the cylinders.... I would have to get near stock replacement pistons, I mean, I don't think I could bore .030" out using the honing tool you put on a drill......

The idea of building up the engine step by step and seeing each power improvement level really intrests me more then doing a complete rebuild and thats it... it would be neat to be able to drive it while building it up and such.... and damn, a stock refreshed 500 alone would haul... its already packing considerable more power then the 425, and that was a pretty quick motor for the car...

Night Wolf
03-25-06, 12:14 AM
You seem pretty bent on a big block and thats a good thing. In your case I would get a 455 Olds with "E" heads or the 472/500. The 403 would NOT give you the results you want. With a long shaft th400 you may not need to alter the driveshaft but even if you did, its pretty cheap. As long as you get the right motor mounts this should be an easy swap. You will need a bigger radiator and in time a better rear with a little more gear, 3.08 or 3.23 would be ideal for the big block, they dont need more than that. No matter which of these motor you get, make sure it is complete with all accessories. Its a royal PITA just getting the motor and hunting for the right pulleys and so forth, trust me I know.

I have had plenty of experience with the Caddy big blocks and the 455 Olds motors. They are definately stump pullers. My 67 Cutlass with a .30 over 455 and many other mods was awesome but I put big money in that motor. The best bang for the buck IMO would be to find a good running early 70's car with the big block for cheap, who cares if its smashed or rusted?, just yank the entire drivetrain and put it in your car. You may have to modify the transmission crossmember a bit but again its not a biggie. Now if you get a junkyard motor to do a full build on, I'd go with a Chevy small block as it would be cheaper.

Personally, I prefer the small block Chevy. I know "everyone" has a 350 but there is a reason for that. The cars that the big Olds and Caddy were in were monstrous, much heavier than the '89, they needed the torque just to get moving good. The big blocks also weigh a lot more, I want to make my car handle and haul. Stock big block vs stock small block the big block wins but the aftermarket for the Chevy small block is huge. Yes it will need more gear and a stall converter to get off the line good but if its built right it'll pull hard to 6000+ rpms's. Just being able to find the parts you need right away for the SBC makes it the better choice for me. Yes you could buy aftermarket parts for the BB Olds or Caddy but you are very limited and the prices are sky high. I love the BB Caddy's and BOP's but my sweetheart will always be the small Chevy as the possibilities are endless.


I am totally biased to the Big Block :). Hell, I HAD a Big block... I miss it... I really do.....

The thing with the Olds 455, is because the car has a 307 in it now, the 455 is a more easy swap... truth is, I don't care and I want a 472/500... so I'll do it. They have been swapped into far more difficult cars, this is just a matter of mixing and matching parts...

the long shaft TH400.... is that on '68-'76 DeVilles? IIRC the '79 had a short tail.... and that was in the same chassis... this is when I really wish I had the means to pull crap off my own damn car... that TH400 was mint and would be exactly what I need for this.... let along the 425 with all the mounts and pullies and whatnot....

Gears, I would like to finish with a 3.08 Posi.... the '79 had 2.28 and that totally bogged the 425 down. The 307 has somewhere in the neighborhood of a 2.54..... either way, its better then a 2.28, and if the 7.5" rear will hold up to the 500 (it should without a problem from what I have heard) then the stock diff is staying in until sometime later in the future.

Of the accessories from the 425 I do have.... is the A4 AC compressor... with new o-rings. It had to come off when I pulled my intake manifold, so I took it with me. The stock alternator on the 425 was 63 amp, so I would get a new one anyway, much higher amperage. The water pump would get replaced... so the only accessory I would need is the power steering pump... and that is bolted to the engine.... the pullies... really, are going to be cheap... I mean maybe like $30 for a whole set? really I am not too worried about it....

The 350 is a great engine... but I just don't "like" them... its hard to explain. About them being popular, I think its more for the fact that GM has used it in nearly anything they made for the last 50 years, it can be swapped into anything.... and a couple drunken rednecks with a 12-pack can rebuild a 350 over a weekend..... compared to an Olds engine, the 350's tolerances are quite a ways off....

plus, a small block just has no place in this car... its a project car, not a daily driver, but knowing me, I'll drive it daily anyway... if there is a way for a small block, there is a way for a big block... and a 500 compared to a 350 is just simply a no brainer at all.... for multiple reasons.

About the cars being much more heavy.... that is true, but my '79 was the same chassis as the '89.... and that had the 425.... 7.0L big block Cadillac.

I believe in overkill.... I love torque and really don't care about HP, plus, like I said before, I am just flat out biased towards the big block Cad's.... I have no desire to go to 6,000RPM, I was happy with the 425 shifting at 4,000.... personally, I like a low rever with high gears... the Cad likes to tug, not rev... and seeing the speedo move quicker then the tach, but still getting pushed in the seat from the acceleration is just sweet.... achieving top speed in 2nd gear is sweet.... I just miss having the big block, monster low end torque and high gears.... it was a sweet combo.

Prices for a BB Cad really aren't all too high... and for what I am going to be doing, not an insane crazy build (yet) I think I would actually be surprised with just how much power I'll be getting from some simple mods.... keep in mind the baseline 500 power levels are 300hp and 460ft-lbs torque... all around 3,500RPM.... now think of how much you'd have to do to a SBC just to get there....

If I went with the forged rods and pistons... next up would be a hotter cam (MTS #10 or #15) head work, valve job, upgraded valvetrain etc... I already have a modifed '68 472 intake manifold I'll use, so my intake is covered. My rebuilt performance tuned Qudra-Jet form the 425 isn't jetted for a 500.... dunno what I'd do there... and I think BB Chevy headers welded to Caddy flanged to clear the Brougham chassis..... would really make a killer engine.... with quite insane power levels.... I think 450hp anf 650ft-lbs of torque would be manageable fairly easy from such a build.... and that is plenty enough for that Brougham.

On a final note....

the Cads has the POB bolt pattern... which means it *could* bolt up to the current 200R4.... now... I know it would tear the 200R4 into pieces... and I coudln't see passing up a TH400 for a 200R4.... but since the car already has it, and it has a semi-recent rebuild.... would it be worth to maybe keeping, it would have to be strengthened up, but then thats probably just as much work as a TH400 and what not....

So, so far I'll need a set of pullies and motor mounts... the motor mounts I'll just end up getting new, I mean, its a motor mount, they wear out over time.... so motor mounts for, say, a '79 425 would fit the chassis, and the 472/500, right?

What about the TH400, which have the short tail or long tail, and which would I need for the Brougham?

Night Wolf
03-25-06, 12:43 AM
From the Ape Man in a similar tread.... see, I did a search :).


A 500 will fit in an 89. you may have problems getting through emissions in this state with it though. You need a donor car to pick several parts off of. a 77'8'9 Deville with a 425 oil pan and pickup tube is needed. Radiator, the engine mounts and pulleys. Exhaust manifolds 1st choice RWD 472 or 500 application 2nd choice 425 RWD application. Wiring modification but nothing major. Then you get to the transmission. Either it gets pulled and replaced with a TH400 and you have no overdrive and lousy gas mileage with your current rear alxe ratio so that has to get swapped to a hopefully posi unit in the 2xx:1 range. OR you beef up the current trans. It's much more than a simple swap. The best swap for my money into one of these would be an Olds 403. Largest small block ever made. It can be made to look 100% stock in your car.


No emmissions to worry about.

So a 425 oil pan and pickup tube (dip stick?), radiator, engine mounts and pullies....

Motor mounts I'll get new... and hell, a raditaor I would just get new anyway.... I have a brand new nice alunimum radiator for a 307 back in NY, but the Brougham already has a new radiator...

So that leaves the oil pan/pick up tube and pullies that need to be taken from a 425.... simple enough, there are plenty of 425's in the junkyard I go to... including mine....

For exhaust, I think stock 500 manifolds that are opened up a bit would be fine until I start kicking things up, so I am not too worried there... 500 manifolds already flow alot better then 425 manifolds.

So a TH400 would be in order.... would I want one form a 425 car or a 472/500 car? Are they the same, or is the short tail/long tail a factor?....

Benzilla
03-25-06, 02:05 AM
Just saw the pics of your mom's car, thats nice! Its totaly worth restoring it I think. Besides, if you just go out and buy a Brougham in great condition, your not really making a differance, where as this way, your keeping one more if the great american land yachts on the road, dosen't that sound great!

Check out this place for restoration parts, they have everything and they are reliable. http://www.cadillacville.com
Oh, and I saw somewhere in the detailing forum on here, that theres this stuff you can put on your cloth top to make it look new again, like a dye or something, here's a link http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/cadillac-detailing-appearance-modification/62627-attn-cloth-top-reviver.html

Hope that helps :)

davesdeville
03-25-06, 04:45 AM
honing the cylinders.... I would have to get near stock replacement pistons, I mean, I don't think I could bore .030" out using the honing tool you put on a drill......

AFAIK there aren't any stock bore forged pistons. Boring is machine shop ONLY! But I guess if you buy a Ram you can take the block to a machine shop now can't you...

IMO, if you go with, say, a MT15 or bigger so you end up shifting at 5500+ at WOT, 3.08s would be good. Anything smaller and 2.54 if that's what's in there would be OK, 2.73 would probably be ideal. Posi would be required with that torque in a "light" car (compared to 68-76s.) If you want a 7.5" to live, use street tires. Drag radials, a good launch, and 500ft.lbs. will make a 7.5 unhappy in short order. As for the 200R4, I'd just try to sell it, or see how long it will take to explode, either of those options would be good.

I'd use a short tailshaft TH400 and driveshaft out of a 77-81 RWD Caddy. A long tailshaft would mean driveshaft modification, or finding a short tailshaft trans and swapping the tailshaft over.

And up until now I forgot the most obvious the mid sump oil pan... :thepan:

The Ape Man
03-25-06, 11:13 AM
I should write this stuff up as a sticky so it can all be found in one place.

77-81 used short tail TH-400. That's what you want.

'81 and IIRC '80 used a driveshaft without the constant velocity joints. The later shaft is lighter and much cheaper to keep alive.

The TH-200 can be used and the bellhousing fits but it will need a lot of internal reworking done by a GOOD transmission guru. This trans was used in the Buke Grand National and can take some torque but the torque convertor specific to the Grand National is expensive. Other convertors yield mixed results. You also need to fabricate linkage with the correct geometry for the all important detent cable. The lockup feature takes some work or another hundred dollars of stuff to enable without an ECM.

a 425 flexplate can be modified to fit the TH-200 torque convertor bolts with careful measurement using only hand tools.

The later rear axle will work if not subjected to stupid stuff like peeling out around turns. Traction will be a joke with any open differential.

Earlier aircon compressor will work using the early hose assembly. Disconnect the low side at the accumulator and the high side at the condensor inlet.

Motor mounts that mount to the block aren't readily available from parts houses. The frame mounted ones are but those don't break on these cars too often.

You really want your whole '79 back to pull all this stuff. Just use the entire drivetrain from one end to the other.

All this stuff is in the archives of this board in more detail.

DopeStar 156
03-25-06, 01:16 PM
I'm curious so I'll ask a stupid question here.... If you replace the 200-R4 with the TH-400 which has no overdrive, would you have to replace the column since the shifter would be able to move into a gear position that that particular transmission didn't have? What I mean is the TH-400 is set up "P RNDL" and the 200-R4 is set up "P RND321" so the shifter would be able to move into 7 different positions on a transmission that only provides 5. Also would you have to swap out the speedo since you're gonna have a different display of the gear selection? Humor me, I'm curious....

Night Wolf
03-25-06, 01:26 PM
Just saw the pics of your mom's car, thats nice! Its totaly worth restoring it I think. Besides, if you just go out and buy a Brougham in great condition, your not really making a differance, where as this way, your keeping one more if the great american land yachts on the road, dosen't that sound great!

Check out this place for restoration parts, they have everything and they are reliable. http://www.cadillacville.com
Oh, and I saw somewhere in the detailing forum on here, that theres this stuff you can put on your cloth top to make it look new again, like a dye or something, here's a link http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/cadillac-detailing-appearance-modification/62627-attn-cloth-top-reviver.html

Hope that helps :)

Sweet, I'll have to give it a shot, that stuff looks like it could save the top, since it is in good shape, its just those spots.

With this car, I am not going to a complete resteration to make it look like new... I am just not into that, and that would be totally un-practical. I just want it to look nice, be a great cruiser... and within time, be the home of my 500 project that I have been wanting to do for quite some time now.

Night Wolf
03-25-06, 01:31 PM
AFAIK there aren't any stock bore forged pistons. Boring is machine shop ONLY! But I guess if you buy a Ram you can take the block to a machine shop now can't you...

IMO, if you go with, say, a MT15 or bigger so you end up shifting at 5500+ at WOT, 3.08s would be good. Anything smaller and 2.54 if that's what's in there would be OK, 2.73 would probably be ideal. Posi would be required with that torque in a "light" car (compared to 68-76s.) If you want a 7.5" to live, use street tires. Drag radials, a good launch, and 500ft.lbs. will make a 7.5 unhappy in short order. As for the 200R4, I'd just try to sell it, or see how long it will take to explode, either of those options would be good.

I'd use a short tailshaft TH400 and driveshaft out of a 77-81 RWD Caddy. A long tailshaft would mean driveshaft modification, or finding a short tailshaft trans and swapping the tailshaft over.

And up until now I forgot the most obvious the mid sump oil pan... :thepan:

I am still pondering weather the MT10 or MT15 would be the one to get.... that there would determine how far out the rest of the build goes.

I agree, a 2.73 Posi would be ideal.... thats what I would like to find, and what I wanted to find for the '79.

This car isn't going to be getting drag radials..... so the 7.5" isn't a problem.... maybe sometime in the future when it gets a stronger diff, I'll give the drag radials a try, but I am not even considering it right now.

Night Wolf
03-25-06, 01:43 PM
I should write this stuff up as a sticky so it can all be found in one place.

77-81 used short tail TH-400. That's what you want.

'81 and IIRC '80 used a driveshaft without the constant velocity joints. The later shaft is lighter and much cheaper to keep alive.

The TH-200 can be used and the bellhousing fits but it will need a lot of internal reworking done by a GOOD transmission guru. This trans was used in the Buke Grand National and can take some torque but the torque convertor specific to the Grand National is expensive. Other convertors yield mixed results. You also need to fabricate linkage with the correct geometry for the all important detent cable. The lockup feature takes some work or another hundred dollars of stuff to enable without an ECM.

a 425 flexplate can be modified to fit the TH-200 torque convertor bolts with careful measurement using only hand tools.

The later rear axle will work if not subjected to stupid stuff like peeling out around turns. Traction will be a joke with any open differential.

Earlier aircon compressor will work using the early hose assembly. Disconnect the low side at the accumulator and the high side at the condensor inlet.

Motor mounts that mount to the block aren't readily available from parts houses. The frame mounted ones are but those don't break on these cars too often.

You really want your whole '79 back to pull all this stuff. Just use the entire drivetrain from one end to the other.

All this stuff is in the archives of this board in more detail.

I agree, it should be a stickey.... I'd say PM a mod about it and do a really nice writeup, I'd like to be able to always know where it is to go back to.

So I do want the short tail tranny... Maybe in the upcoming weekends I will go and remove my TH400.... I know they'll charge me for it, but I think a tranny is less then $50, so I'll deal with it. Atleast I know that was in great working order, fluid and filter was changed, and it has 93k origanal miles.

Only '80 and '81 used the non CV joint driveshaft, and that is the one to get?

I don't think I'll really bother with the 200R4.... the TH400 is just the better choise in nearly every way.

The current 7.5" would hold over until, the engine is actually swapped into the car, and I come across what I am looking for.... 8.5" and something in the range of 2.73-3.08 with Posi.

Keeping my '79 would have been great, I definitly agree with you there.... but with no place to store it and lots of other difficulties with living in an apartemnt with no family nearby made that happen. It s at their junkyard now, and there is no chance of getting it back. I'll just ask them if I can take stuff off my car I need, I am pretty sure they'll say no, in which I'll probably just end up taking it off anyway, and paying for it.... their prices are very resonable, so it wouldn't be a whole lot I would be spending...

that car had a 2.28 open rear diff... I don't want that. So I would mostly be looking at the TH400, pullies, oil pan/pickup tube, and maybe the motor mounts......

Night Wolf
03-25-06, 01:48 PM
I'm curious so I'll ask a stupid question here.... If you replace the 200-R4 with the TH-400 which has no overdrive, would you have to replace the column since the shifter would be able to move into a gear position that that particular transmission didn't have? What I mean is the TH-400 is set up "P RNDL" and the 200-R4 is set up "P RND321" so the shifter would be able to move into 7 different positions on a transmission that only provides 5. Also would you have to swap out the speedo since you're gonna have a different display of the gear selection? Humor me, I'm curious....

Yup.

Its super easy.... 4 screws, a speedo cable and a wire harness.

But, I already got that covered.... becuase I bought the speedo from *MY* '79... yes, I had to pay $15 for it... but I figured if I gotta get it anyway, what better then to get it from my own car?

The differences are, the '79 dosn't have the little 55mph mark, the '79's high beam indicator was the outline of a Cadillac crest, the '89 has the regular light beam. The '89 has the much common arrows for signals, the '79 has the classic sideways triangle looking things..... and the gear selection....

instead of P RND321, the '79 has Park RN*Drive*Low. each * is actually a seclection, so there is (as said in the owners manual) Drive2 and Drive3, or also reffered to as Drive right position and Drive left position.... basically, its the same thing as D21, but seeing Park, Drive and Low on the cluster was just so cool :).

So my cluster reads 93,351 or so... origanal miles... my mothers car has around 193,000 miles on it by now... and these clusters are only 5 place.... so... it kinda works out.

DopeStar 156
03-25-06, 02:24 PM
Ok, but what about the column? That doesn't have to be replaced too? That's cool that it's the same speedo from your '79 Think of it as a rebirth, you're like Frankenstein here bringing the car back with the body of another. MWAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! *Crackle of lightning*

The Ape Man
03-25-06, 05:10 PM
The 4 speed column has different detents than the 3 speed. It will work with a TH-400. I used to line up N neutral so it read properly and the rest was good enough. It all works OK even with the extra 3 on the readout. Best result happens when the whole shebang gets changed. Some of this is in the archives.

Night Wolf
03-25-06, 09:32 PM
By switch the column would mean I'd have to find a '77-'81 with the same, grey interior... which isn't happeneing.... so really, I am kinda stuck with the column issue thing....

DopeStar 156
03-26-06, 02:05 AM
By switch the column would mean I'd have to find a '77-'81 with the same, grey interior... which isn't happeneing.... so really, I am kinda stuck with the column issue thing....
Paint one?

The Ape Man
03-26-06, 09:25 AM
Yup. You paint it with paint from a hobby store. Like I said, you can get by with your original. There are other issues swapping column around. The older cars still have the highbeam dimwit switch on the floor and the ignition switch plugs differ some years. The terminals themselves can be popped out and swapped. The Column in my 1980 CDV was removed from a 1987 Fleetwood RWD.

Night Wolf
03-26-06, 03:28 PM
yeah, I miss the floor mounted high beam switch :(

So if it is lined up in Neutral, then Park would line up, neutral... and 3, 2, 1 should line up fairly good? what about the "stops" like if I was to manually down shift to 1st with the 4spd column.... with no stop on the column the only thing stopping it would be the selector on the trans... I don't like that... can the column be modified in that way?

The Ape Man
03-26-06, 08:19 PM
If you miss the floor dimwit switch then modify your present car to use one.
Not too difficult.
Line up neutral and everything will be reasonably accurate but the low gear column detents will not feel positive like they should. Try it you'll see. Usable for sure. I have not tried changing internal column pieces as too many speciality tools are needed.

Night Wolf
03-26-06, 08:46 PM
Nah, the dimmer switch will stay how it is.

Hmm, I guess its just something I'll end up dealing with when the time comes along...

DopeStar 156
03-26-06, 09:41 PM
Keep posting about this, I'm interested in seeing how this comes together. How hard are engine swaps? To me that is such a foreign "you can't do that" concept.

Night Wolf
03-27-06, 06:04 AM
Engine swaps, when you have the time and space, are not hard at all.... a nice garage with room to work at night or reguardless of weather is perfect...

I don't have that, plus I live at an apartment, so any work would have to be done about 2.5hours up North at my mothers and Rich's soon-to-be new house.

The thing that is really putting a hault to this right now, is the fact that not only would I need a new engine, but a new transmission as well, which also means I would have to go thru a transmission, and possibly rebuild that, that would be alot of money for a shop to do, and I have heard, say a TH400 isn't too bad to do, so I would attempt it myself...

add to that, the fact that the 200R4 in the car is recently rebuilt and works fine.... is starting to make me think about other choices... for now. More specifically, the 403. Because of it being a small block, it would be a drop in instaltion, and nearly everything from the 307 would fit it, it would bolt up to the 200R4 fine, and from what it sounds like, it woldn't kill the 200R4 if power levels are kept within reason... I never gave much thought to the 403, or any of the Olds swaps because I *did* want the big block Cad.... but really, when I started thinking about it, I would be getting myself into more then I can handle, given the situation right now....

plus, lets say a 403 was swaped in, it got a mild build... say maybe in the neighborhood of 250hp and 350ft-lbs torque... possibly more, that would be more then enough to play with for a while. What would that bring the car to in the 1/4 mile? maybe mid 15's? Even if it was a flat 16, which is what the '93 Coupe is, I gotta say, for that size car, its quite fast, and would definitly allow me to have some fun with it. Then in the future when I have my own place, and the means to really do a nice build on a 500 and TH400, I would.... I'll have the car a long time, so may as well have fun with different parts of it.

I still would like to do an engine swap, but perhaps something a bit more simple at first, given the situation.

So, I am going to start reading up on 403 goodies, that one Olds site (book marked) is a great start... they were only made for a few year tho, right? seems like it'd be hard to come by one... still tho, I have some time to think about it.

Night Wolf
03-27-06, 06:09 AM
Well, from what I have been reading already:


Stock specs on a 1977-79 403 are: 185hp@3600 RPM, 320ft/lbs torque @2200 RPM, 4.351 x 3.385 bore/stroke, 8.0:1 compression ratio.


Damn, thats already the same numbers as my 425 was putting out, at similar RPM.... I am thinking my 250/350 figures on a mild build 403 may be very conservative... especially with that 8.0:1 compression, which would end up being 9.0-9.5:1 by the time I am done.... this is looking better...

I have always been interested in Olds engines, but don't know too much about the classics... the 403 isn't that popular, but I would think parts would still be cheaper then the Cads..... are Olds parts interchangeable? There is quite the aftermarket for a 350 and 455.... maybe the 403 build wouldn't be so bad after all.

*So it seems like the 403 has a couple drawbacks, but alot of good... most of these drawbacks they said are when trying to crank over 600hp or spin to 8,000RPM..... gosh, I don't want to go anywhere near either of those figures.... I gotta get to school now, but I'll be thinking about it all day, and reading up more later tonight.

DopeStar 156
03-27-06, 09:37 AM
Yeah, taking the Olds engine route seems much easier than replacing the whole drivetrain just for a preference.

Night Wolf
03-27-06, 10:52 AM
It all depends how much the 200R4 is good til. I have been reading more up on the 403, seems like a really nice and workable motor, and since it is already quite powerful form the start, what I am expecting from it will not require much of a buildup or considerable money involved, which means the 403 woudln't be working too hard to get the performance I expect.

I just don't want to gernade the 200R4... it was rebuilt by a very good local shop back in NY, and a tranny cooler is on the car now... but I am sure it wasn't a performance rebuild, just a regular rebuild... so I really don't want to push my luck too much....

Whats nice with this is, I can go in steps. Swap the 403 in and use the current 200R4, then when I get the time and space, get a TH400 and build it up, swap that behind the 403... then either choose to hop up the 403 a bit more or just go for the Cad swap.... but being able to string it out over time, instead of all at once is just so much better.

Really, if it got a 403, and the 200R4 stays, I am not going to be driving the thing cross country, so it isn't going to be getting alot of miles... it'll be a 2nd/3rd car, I put 10k miles on the '79 in about 18 months of driving (wasn't driven much at all in winter) so thats what I'd expect with the Brougham, basically, even if the 403 was infront of the 200R4, I wouldn't be expecting it to last 100k.... I'd say within 20k miles is when I would be looking at other options.

So, I am off to do more reasearch on the 403, and see what the 200R4 can handle... there is no way to beef up a 200R4 without tearing into it, right? which is as involved as a rebuild, which I am not doing....

Night Wolf
03-27-06, 03:44 PM
Well, I am thinking about going and pulling the TH400 from my car anyway... I mean, I'll need it sooner or later, and that was a great trans, its just going to go to waste. They'll charge me for it, I know it... I think without a core it'll be around $50, who knows... it sucks that I am charged for stuff off my own car, but I really don't have a choice here.....

So, my question is... how difficult is it to remove a TH400? The car is quite high off the ground, so I can get under it. I know I have the bellhousing bolts, the driveshaft, the tranny cross member, the cooler lines and the selector lever... I'd really like that tranny because I personally know the miles are true, and its in perfect working condition... no neutral drops or crap like that.... Since this is a u-pull-it yard, I gotta do it all myself, so I'll see if they have some sort of a cart for the tranny to lay on then I drag it out... and I'll have to put it in the trunk of the '93 Coupe.

So how hard both in time and work is it to remove a TH400? I get out of school at 3, and they close at 6.... roughly 2-3 hours working time if I do it durring the day.... is it hard?

*IF* I get the tranny, I'll see about the pullies, oil pan, and maybe mounts.... tho to get the motor mounts the engine is going to have to pretty much come out.... they have an engine lift there, but what do I do with the engine once the mounts are gone? just let it balance in the engine bay with no intake manifold or oil pan? If I didn't remove the intake manifold, and had a use for the 425, I'd take that too... but my eyes are on a 472 or 500....

Still undecided on which route to go... right now though, I would like the stuff from my car... if removing the trans isn't *too* hard, I am thinking about heading over there tmorrow....

Night Wolf
03-27-06, 04:27 PM
well, this is just update after update....

As much as I'd like to get *my* TH400, it won't happen... since it'll be sitting around and whatnot....I'll end up getting a TH400 when the time comes for the swap, since it'll get a performance build, it really dosn't matter what running condition its in.

I just talked to my mother, we discussed alot of things, one of them being the cars. The new plan is, on my Summer break, the last week in July (only 11 days) I am flying up to NY, I *was* going to drive my Oldsmobile down, but instead, my mother and I are going to swap cars, she is getting my Olds (since it has working AC) and I am getting the Brougham, we'll do it thru the DMV and all that good stuff. Which means I'll be driving the '89 Brougham the same exact trip I drove the Coupe and the '79 to FL.... If the Brougham is going to ride as amazing as the '79 down, then damn, I am looking forward to this!.

That is exactly 4 months from this week. Since I am going to be driving the Brougham down, 3 things must be taken care of 1) driver seat must work... I think the wires are broke as it was fixed once before. 2) speedo.... the gear in the tranny is wrong (reads 12mph over) so I'll have to get one form the junkyard, and the cable needs to be replaced. 3) cruise control. I don't know what is wrong with it, but it dosn't work. I fixed it on my '79, I'll fix it on this, no way I am driving cross-country in a car with no cruise control.

So even though the 307 is nearing 200k miles, I trust it, once it gets down here, I'll keep putting around with it, and I'd like to find a 403, since it would be a pretty painless swap.

The Ape Man
03-27-06, 04:28 PM
Do a google search on "kevin wong cadillac"

Night Wolf
03-27-06, 04:38 PM
Nothing seemed to jump out....

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=kevin+wong+cadillac&btnG=Google+Search

The Ape Man
03-27-06, 05:16 PM
The first Olds FAQ link is useful. There are many links contained in that text further down. Kevin Wong had/has? a late 80's Brougham with either a 403 or a 455 with all the original engine management electronics (from the 307) still working. It has been featured on the WWW somewhere but I don't see it on that page.
Better to wait as you will be chasing parts for months. Olds 403's were used in late 70's Trans Ams also. Same years had a Pontiac 400 or Olds 403.

Night Wolf
03-27-06, 05:38 PM
Hmmm, so it seems like the 403, while a stepping stone, is really going to be more work/money in the end...

So I'll live with the 307 for the time, its not that big of a deal, once I get the money/time/space together to do the 500/TH400 swap, I'll do it.

So I am back to the start of this thread, and the same idea as the '79... though instead of a '79 Sedan DeVille d'Elegance, its now an '89 Brougham, instead of a 425/TH400 I have a 307/200R4. Plenty for me to get thru, and it just makes me want the 500 even more. There will be plenty of '77-'81 DeVilles at junkyards for me to pull a TH400 out of, I don't see a shortage of them anytime soon.

The oil pickup tube is the same thing as the dipstick? I may still pull 425 pullies/oil pan etc... get all the stuff I need a little at a time so I don't have to do a mad rush at once.

Night Wolf
03-28-06, 02:56 PM
Just for reference, what needs to be done to get a long tail TH400 from a 472/500 to fit the '89 chassis?

The Ape Man
03-28-06, 04:59 PM
Don't use a long tail trans. It can be done but you have to shorten the driveshaft.

Oil pickup and dipstick tube are 2 different things. You can always fabricate a dipstick tube from fuel line. The trick is getting it away from the crank counterweight.

Night Wolf
03-28-06, 05:45 PM
ok, I was just thinking if I ever came across a 500/472 with trans.... but that would be a long tail.... So a '77-'81 is a must then.

So what do I need form a 425, the dipstick tube or oil pick up? The oil pickup tube would be inside the oil pan then, right?

Destroyer
03-28-06, 06:55 PM
ok, I was just thinking if I ever came across a 500/472 with trans.... but that would be a long tail.... So a '77-'81 is a must then.

So what do I need form a 425, the dipstick tube or oil pick up? The oil pickup tube would be inside the oil pan then, right?
So what if its a long tail?. Get the driveshaft shortened. Its like $100 or so.

Night Wolf
03-28-06, 07:00 PM
I was under the impression it was a very difficult/not woth it task....

Is it really just a matter of unbolting it and bringing it to a machine shop, tell them it fits a TH400 short tail but I need it shortened to fit a long tail?

Is there any clearance problems on the car? cross members? the hump etc....

Destroyer
03-28-06, 09:00 PM
I was under the impression it was a very difficult/not woth it task....

Is it really just a matter of unbolting it and bringing it to a machine shop, tell them it fits a TH400 short tail but I need it shortened to fit a long tail?

Is there any clearance problems on the car? cross members? the hump etc....Yeah its that easy. There was a great driveshaft place in Clearwater but I'm not sure if they are still there. On a couple of projects I needed to shorten and in one case extend the driveshaft and their work was perfect, no problems. I'm gonna try to find the place (if its still around). Its been awhile and I cant remember the name. It was down Betty lane I think, I'll check it out.

No there wont be any clearance problems. The tail part of it is after where it mounts to the crossmember. Its inexpensive to do and real easy. I cant believe I'm having a damn brain fart and cant remember the name of the place though. :confused:

Night Wolf
03-28-06, 10:21 PM
well, I feel much better..... maybe I'll be able to find a nice 500/400 combo.

I was thinking about trying to get *my* TH400 just to have a TH400... but really, as much as I want it, its just better to hold off.... tho I am still thinking about my tranny....

davesdeville
03-29-06, 06:36 AM
Will a long tail even physically fit in the tranny tunnel? I went out and looked at the long tail 400 on my porch and the tailshaft is considerably wider than a driveshaft would be. It may or may not take some... modificiation (sledge hammer) to the tunnel. Really I'd get a short tailshaft and be done with it, if you can store it anywhere get the one out of your 79.

Night Wolf
03-29-06, 10:48 AM
I still would like my TH400.....

I am in the process of trying to figure out how much work is involved and how hard it'll be, since its just me.....

77CDV
04-02-06, 05:59 PM
Rick,

See, told you you'd fall in love again. You're gonna have a sweet ride when you're done. If I were you, I'd stick with the stock set-up for a while, accumulate the parts you want (as you have space), then swap engine and trans simultaneously. I rather like your original idea of a 500/TH400. The 403 seems such a non sequitur.

Craig

Night Wolf
04-03-06, 12:53 AM
Rich's Brougham, (the borwn '87) was running really bad for quite some time now...

long story short, when every other problem was looked at, I thought about one thing.... the timing...

turned out, when the shop put the new engine in, they set the timing to 20*, but never groudned the ALDL connector, so it was always advanced....

So I grounded that out, and the timing was like 14*..... rotated the distrubutor, it went to 20* and the engine smoothed right out...

So we advancced it to 24* BTDC (no ping on 87) then removed the paper clip. We did the mod to allow the secondaires to open more, and adjusted the TV cable, as it was shifting into 2nd at like 30mph... under WOT.

Now it runs/idles/sounds/feels so much better, gets more air when the secondaires are open, and runs to about 40mph in 1st and downshifts nice. Its ten folds better then it was...

so once we got it all good, and I took it out... I was making a U-turn with a yeild sign, nobody was coming, I was going like 20mph, and put it to the floor...

it downshift into first... but I was reminded at the.... amount of power the 307 lacks....

see its been atleast 3 years since I drove a 307 for any amount of time.... my big body car was the '79, with a lightly modded 425... so I got used to that power...

Well, with the 307, there was no quick downshift to 1st, it didn't make the car jolt with power, yank the nose up nor actually put you in the seat...... my '79 did all of that... I mean, the power of the 425 is so much more aparent.... *only* 40hp more and 65ft-lbs torque more.... but damn, the 307 (only 10k on new engine) just really lacks the power.... Also the 425 had 2.28 gears while the 307 has 2.54... so the 307 has the edge on gearing.

But, with the 425 making THAT much of a difference (it was quite a bit) It just makes me think how much a difference going form a 425 to a stock, freshened up 500 would be.... then a stock 500 to a modded 500....

But, yeah, I don't see engine swaps in my near future... not atleast with the recent chain of events... so the 307 is fine.... and I'll be able to pick up a 500/TH400 combo in the future... for now I'll engine the better mileage of a 307 and overdrive... the car "gets up to speed" but gosh... anything more is really asking too much.

My '79 was a 17 second car in the 1/4 mile... slow by todays standards, but it sure *felt* fast.... I figured the '89 Brougham would also be a ~17 sec car... but gosh no.... like I said, its been such a long time since i drove a 307... when you floor it from 20-70, you just slowly gain speed, like you are asking the engine too much.... the 425 would open up and haul the car.... lotta power reserve...

I~LUV~Caddys8792
04-03-06, 09:37 AM
God I wanna see an old road test for a 307 Brougham!!!

The '81 V-8-6-4 Sedan deVille article that CoupeDevilleRob posted said that was capable of a 11.4 0-60 and an 18.6 1/4 mile. Now thats the same hp as the 307 Brougham and the 368 has 10 more lb/ft. But the '81 has like 2.41:1 gears and the 307's all have like 3.08:1 or 2.93:1, so they have the gearing edge, and they have a four speed with o/d. It would make for an interesting race...

Night Wolf
04-03-06, 10:41 AM
307's have 2.54 standard.... a 3.11 would be nice for them.

Keep in mind, the gearing in the TH400 and 200R4 are different aswell...

but the 307.... it moves the car.... but the 425 just had alot of power... its like the 307 strains to move the car (engine is more fitting for a G-body) while the 425 can move the car as well as the 307, and never go above 2,000RPM.... there is just alot of power reserve.

90Brougham350
04-03-06, 03:31 PM
I'm glad you're getting the Brougham Rick, you know just as well as any of us the joy in a RWD Caddy. If I was in your situation, I would spend my time and money getting the vehicle itself into excellent condition. Cleaning the carpet, fixing the seat, you know, stuff like that. Engine work is fun, but like you've already said, it can snowball, once it's begun. The 307 isn't a bad engine by any means; it moves the Brougham around well for what it is. You may find that if you get the vehicle into great shape now and after a period of time has passed, you might be more capable financially or space-wise to begin an engine project. I still believe you should build a 500. But I wish you the best of luck whatever you chose to do. :thumbsup:

77CDV
04-03-06, 09:53 PM
... so the 307 is fine.... and I'll be able to pick up a 500/TH400 combo in the future... for now I'll engine the better mileage of a 307 and overdrive... the car "gets up to speed" but gosh... anything more is really asking too much.



Rick,

One road test I read once put it best: "Doesn't so much accelerate as accumulate speed."

Craig

Night Wolf
04-03-06, 10:01 PM
Thanks :)

Yeah, when I was working on the '87 Brougham I realized 2 things:

1) that thing is such a mess to work on (compared to the 425, which was clean) that I don't even want to bother pulling manifolds/heads etc... to make the 307 more powerful

2) I would really be getting into more then i want to if I did a 500 swap... I mean, there is no way I could go thru the work to put a stock 500 in, then it would just get more and more involved.. then the trans...

* When I say the 425 was more clean.... you pop the hood, and everything was neat and orderly, simple accessory section with 2 belts etc... the 307 has 4 belts, AIR pump, 2 miles of vaccum hoses, electrical wires all over.... I mean I really don't look forward to working on the 307 just because of the mess of stuff.... the 425 was a gem.

The benifit though, is that I will be getting much better gas mileage with the Brougham.... I mean, if its in good tune, it should get atleast 16/24ish... compared to 12/15.... all that adds up ya know?

Alot of the work I can do myself, all the little odds and ends, cleaning and replacing etc... The 2 things that I can't do are... upholstery work... which I guess since the worst part is the drivers seat, its not that big of a deal to bring it to a shop....

But also the body work.... moreso, the paint job. I was going to see about doing it myself *check out my thread about the $50 paint job in the apparance section) or, maybe just bring it to Macco..... but I dunno... I don't want to have to get another paintjob in 5 years... but I don't have alot of money to spend.

I think it'll be a fun project.... while its a nice car, its just simply not taking the same spot as my '79.... when I got my '79 it was like eh.... but now, everytime I see a '79 I just can't help but think about mine.... the Brougham will be a great car.... but I am sure sometime in the future I'll end up with another '79.... Sedan d'Elegance with the ceder red interior, dosn't matter what color outside it is, because if the paint is bad, it would get repainted.... Laramie Beige.... heh...

Night Wolf
04-03-06, 10:08 PM
Rick,

One road test I read once put it best: "Doesn't so much accelerate as accumulate speed."

Craig

Thats a great way to put it :)

Its like, you floor it... and you know there is a V8 somewhere up there that is moving the car... but you don't feel it, or really hear it.... and 20 seconds later you are doing the speed you wanted to do.... it'll go fast (realitively speaking), and stay there... but getting there... its just like floor it and wait.

I know one thing, the 307 lives a rough life in that car, I mean, I could drive my '79 all day, and never floor it.... never open the secondaries and never go above 2,000RPM... and I would be accelerating faster then traffic.... with the 307, I gotta floor it all the time... not really to keep up with traffic, but I just can't stand barely taking off from traffic lights.... the 307 is a strong engine tho... it is definitly a bit overwhelmed in that chassis tho.

With all the bad talk about the 307, I must say.... I do like it alot. The fact is is an Oldsmobile engine (over, say.... a Chevy) is really cool, I like Olds' engines. the thing won't die.... ever... and its a smooth and quite running engine. My only complaint is the lack of power... but really if it gives me trouble free service, which it should, even approaching 200k miles... and returns acceptable gas mileage, then I am happy.... get a decent sound system in it, and when I go crusing on the highway at night cranking my favorite music with the cruise set at 70, it wont matter if it has 140hp or 400hp.... I'll just be enjoying the drive.

Night Wolf
04-03-06, 10:17 PM
Like.... this, would never happen in the 307 Brougham. All stock, the sound if from the Edelbrock 14" open element air filter (which I have... may make its way on the 307 if it fits) In drive (as it was in durring this movie) it would shift form 1-2 at 3,900RPM and 2-3 at 3,400RPM.... wind it out manually to 4,200RPM in each gear and it'll do 60 in 1st and top out at 113mph in 2nd :).

The 425 was a great engine that I really miss...

http://inoventionseast.com/1979%20DeVille/1-3drive2.wmv

burrying the speedo in 2nd:

http://inoventionseast.com/1979%20DeVille/'79speedo.wmv

Man, these movies and others really bring back some memories.... I'm tellin ya, this is just all the more incentive to come back with the Brougham even more.... get it fixed up nice, then build the 500 I have always wanted, TH400 and 2.73 gears... little more boost, but still tug like these Cad's like to... I really miss the slow rev/fast accel feeling... winding each gear out so long.... I would be at a stop light and a kid in a Civic... we would both hit it, by the time I got to 50, still in 1st, he was ready to shift into 4th, lol.

77CDV
04-03-06, 10:55 PM
Rick,

Careful, you're starting to drool on the computer!:)

Seriously, I know just how you feel, having lost my first car (77 CDV) to theft. I "replaced" it with a 77 SDV (insurance money only goes so far for a poor college undergrad), a very good, loyal car, but never the same. Oddly enough, my dad said at the time I was shopping not to go out looking for my car, because I would be disappointed. He was right, as usual. Your mom's Brougham will be a sweet car, because you'll make it so, but it will never be your 79. Nor for that matter will any other 79 you may buy in the future, repaint or no. I speak from experience. Enjoy your new-to-you Brougham for what it is and what you will make it. If you're half as good to it as you were to your 79, that car will have a very happy life indeed, and you'll have a whole new set of different memories to treasure.

Craig

Night Wolf
04-03-06, 11:30 PM
Thanks :).

I~LUV~Caddys8792
04-03-06, 11:55 PM
Rick,

One road test I read once put it best: "Doesn't so much accelerate as accumulate speed."

Craig


Yeah, I can remember driving that '90 Brougham D'Elegance with that 307, and hitting the gas, and it was slow, sure, but it never felt strained or stressed.
It was like vrrrrrrrrrrrrrroooooooooooooooooommmmmmmmmmmmm,
slowly building up speed and RPM. It's not like an underpowered 4 banger, where all it does it rev like crazy and gets nowhere. The 307 in the 4200lb Brougham never throws you back into your seat like a 4.5 or newer Caddy does. But like Rick said, you know theres a V8 in there, because you're moving with out causing a lot of stress on the engine. The '90 I drove was pretty much silent under acceleration..and very very smooth. You get the feeling of solidity..very slow, quiet, smooth solidity.

But like around town, if I didnt floor it, it would feel alright, a little underpowered, but not bad, but on the highway at speed, or passing you HAVE to floor it to get any where..