: Has Cadillac ever built a "Muscle car" or something close to this idea?



Ralph
01-10-04, 01:01 AM
With the exception of the new V series, of course. What has been the most powerful Cadillac, stock?

Deep Sleep
01-10-04, 01:18 AM
With the exception of the new V series, of course. What has been the most powerful Cadillac, stock?

How about the mid-80s 'sport touring' Deville. Stiffer springs,shocks,wider aluminum rims,lower profile tires,F&R Anti-roll bars,larger exhaust,differnt gearing ect. It does have the HT4100 engine :histeric: (hasn't given me any problems yet),It performs pretty good. It will leave some nice marks on the pavment but I try not to do that to often. Still all stock, Just hit 28,000 original miles.

DaveSmed
01-10-04, 01:46 AM
Probably the 1970 Eldo with the 500.

Ralph
01-10-04, 03:17 AM
Ya, probably an Eldo, I like the look of the 1968 Fleetwood Eldorado coupe. There is a pic of a green one in my owner's manual. I was just thinking that Olds had the 442's. Buick had the GS's, Pontiac had the GTO's, but I suppose Cadillac never wanted this type of image? Don't laugh at this, look at the new V series, that CTS-V will kick with 400 hp! It seems since we lost many of our traditional "musclecars" nowadays, the high-priced luxury cars are picking up where they left off.

I think if Jaguar has that 2 door model with the supercharged V8 (XKR?) then I would like to see something like that from Cadillac, but without the sticker-shock of the XLR.

Ralph
01-10-04, 03:20 AM
How about the mid-80s 'sport touring' Deville. Stiffer springs,shocks,wider aluminum rims,lower profile tires,F&R Anti-roll bars,larger exhaust,differnt gearing ect. It does have the HT4100 engine :histeric: (hasn't given me any problems yet),It performs pretty good. It will leave some nice marks on the pavment but I try not to do that to often. Still all stock, Just hit 28,000 original miles.

Hey! I'm supposed to have the lowest mileage 1991 or older around here!! :mad: :histeric: How did you acquire that thing, and keep the miles off it?

Deep Sleep
01-10-04, 03:55 AM
Hey! I'm supposed to have the lowest mileage 1991 or older around here!! :mad: :histeric: How did you acquire that thing, and keep the miles off it?

:histeric: :histeric: :histeric: :histeric: :tease: Had to wait for the old lady to die, :histeric: :histeric: :histeric:
J/K, Really this old lady bought when she was in her 80s. She never drove it,My brother -in-law booght for 1500.00. He put like 2,000 miles on it,didnt like it and gave it to his sister(My Wife)She put like 3,000 miles on it, She don't like it so she gave it to me :bouncy: :bouncy: .I pretty much don't drive it except on the week-ends,Unless I'm working witch is alot. Soon I plan to get around to installing the audio system, Pioneer head unit, active cross over,2 tweeters,2 4" high mids,2 61/2" low mids,2 8" woofers,2 10" subs. 1 400 watt 4 channel amp,1 200 watt 4 channel amp, 2 250 watt bass amps. Rockford Fosgate & Kenwood. Already have all proper gage wire,1 fared cap,power dist blocks ect. Did I mention I like good audio systems??

Scrapyard
01-10-04, 07:01 AM
Probably the 1970 Eldo with the 500.

Exactley. That's the closest thing you're gona find from Cadillac. It was a 2 dr hard top, had around 425hp if I remember right and it had (what they considered) sport suspension. Although it was FWD, weighed in around 5000lbs and drug side mirriors around corners. It was Cadillacs muscle car.

HotRodSaint
01-10-04, 11:44 AM
I saw a '53 Coupe De Ville convertible at a Christies auction in Monterey several years ago. It sold for $150,000 or so.

It was equiped from the factory with a supercharger. I think it was the only one made. It wasn't a prototype, it was done at the request of a wealthy buyer. That seems to be their only 'real' attempt to make a 'muscle car'.

Unless we go back to the '30's and the V16's and coach built coupes.

BTW, I read it was the '54 models that introduced the Cadillac 'float'. Until then they were road worthy cars. So much so, that Briggs Cunningham entered a stock '53 into Le Mans.

kcnewell
01-10-04, 11:44 AM
I had a '69 Fleetwood in the early '70s ( I bought it in '71 ) It had a 472 in it BigAssed car with BigAssed power! I don't know if anyone would consider it a muscle car but it had plenty of muscle.....It had way more pep than the '74 Lincoln MK IV with a 460 in it That I bought next....Last Ford product I ever wasted my money on. After the Lincoln I've never bought anything but Cadillacs and I never will.

brougham
01-10-04, 03:16 PM
Eldorados are supposed to be Cadillacs fast cars. When they were selling the cars they wanted to sell why would they want to spend the time making anything more?

A touring DeVille a muscle car? 5.7L Fleetwoods and Broughams have more power! :basketcas They had more torque then any other Cadillac from the 80s &90s including the Eldorados. And what other car could pull 7,000lbs :holycrap:

El Dobro
01-10-04, 03:23 PM
Well, there's always the 93 Allante with the Northstar.

HotRodSaint
01-10-04, 06:54 PM
After the Lincoln I've never bought anything but Cadillacs and I never will.
I saw the Lincoln Mark X concept at the Detroit auto show. I like the looks much better than the XLR.

Deep Sleep
01-10-04, 10:33 PM
Eldorados are supposed to be Cadillacs fast cars. When they were selling the cars they wanted to sell why would they want to spend the time making anything more?

A touring DeVille a muscle car? 5.7L Fleetwoods and Broughams have more power! :basketcas They had more torque then any other Cadillac from the 80s &90s including the Eldorados. And what other car could pull 7,000lbs :holycrap:

Muscle cars were more than just power, Otherwise caddy pretty much had the muscle car wars won. But how many caddys did you see dusting Road runners,Boss mustangs,Z-28s,GSXs?? Caddy made more power and torqe than most of them, Just to damn heavy :histeric: . Not to mention way to soft ride :histeric: . So I will think of my Touring Deville as a Muscle car or 'something like that'

kcnewell
01-11-04, 02:22 AM
I saw the Lincoln Mark X concept at the Detroit auto show. I like the looks much better than the XLR.


I'm sure it looks great......But like most everything Ford does they'll f*ck it up in the production models without a doubt!

Ralph
01-11-04, 03:52 AM
Exactley. That's the closest thing you're gona find from Cadillac. It was a 2 dr hard top, had around 425hp if I remember right and it had (what they considered) sport suspension. Although it was FWD, weighed in around 5000lbs and drug side mirriors around corners. It was Cadillacs muscle car.

I've got the 1970 Olds brochure, and I sure like the bad ass look of the Toronado that year. I think it said it was a 455. Besides the engine, did the Eldo share any components with the Toronado, or did they keep the Caddy "exclusive" even back then?

El Dobro
01-11-04, 11:10 AM
Cadillac used their engine, but other than that, the chassis and suspension were pretty much the same.

Ralph
01-12-04, 02:39 AM
Cadillac used their engine, but other than that, the chassis and suspension were pretty much the same.

No, I meant and thought that the 455 is what Olds used! Are you saying Eldo used the 455?

El Dobro
01-12-04, 10:05 AM
Cadillac used their own engine and Oldsmobile used their own engine.

Big Jim
01-13-04, 04:32 AM
I think the reason Cad's weren't known as muscle cars is they were usually owned by older people who didn't know what WOT meant. Shortly after the 500 Eldorados came out, I had a friend who was working as a state patrol dispatcher. Early in the morning, patrol cars are few and far between in northeastern Colorado. An officer tried to pull over a new Cad. The guy put his foot into the Cad and the chase was on - for a little while. The patrol cars of that era would do an honest 140. In the space of 10 to 15 minutes, the Cad had pulled so far ahead, the officer could no longer see him. That qualifies as a muscle car to me.

Ralph
01-14-04, 01:15 AM
I think the reason Cad's weren't known as muscle cars is they were usually owned by older people who didn't know what WOT meant. Shortly after the 500 Eldorados came out, I had a friend who was working as a state patrol dispatcher. Early in the morning, patrol cars are few and far between in northeastern Colorado. An officer tried to pull over a new Cad. The guy put his foot into the Cad and the chase was on - for a little while. The patrol cars of that era would do an honest 140. In the space of 10 to 15 minutes, the Cad had pulled so far ahead, the officer could no longer see him. That qualifies as a muscle car to me.

The only time I actually saw a cop give up pursuit, was in the late 1980's, and it was a motorcycle that got the better of them. I guess if you got the cubes, fat doesn't matter. :p

Big Jim
01-14-04, 05:25 AM
I don't know if it would go around a curve but it was a straight line rocket. Of course, most of the muscle cars were just that. I had a friend with a new Road Runner. It'd bury the speedo on the straight but heaven help you if you needed to make a corner. Reminds me of the old racing adage: The only thing faster than cubic inches is cubic dollars. Caddy sure had the inches.

Ralph
01-17-04, 03:27 AM
I don't know if it would go around a curve but it was a straight line rocket. Of course, most of the muscle cars were just that. I had a friend with a new Road Runner. It'd bury the speedo on the straight but heaven help you if you needed to make a corner. Reminds me of the old racing adage: The only thing faster than cubic inches is cubic dollars. Caddy sure had the inches.

I know the older cars from the 70's for example, leaned a lot when you turned. My 1969 383 Charger R/T leaned, but not too terribly. Even my 1991 Grand Marquis, you could practically scrape the doors. LOL. In fact, I think some leaning might be good for weight transfer of traction to the tires that need it most. IMO. I think most if not all new cars are designed to "corner flat" by keeping all tires firmly planted for max control, but did this really create the most traction? I think SOME lean is good, and expected.

Deep Sleep
01-17-04, 12:43 PM
I know the older cars from the 70's for example, leaned a lot when you turned. My 1969 383 Charger R/T leaned, but not too terribly. Even my 1991 Grand Marquis, you could practically scrape the doors. LOL. In fact, I think some leaning might be good for weight transfer of traction to the tires that need it most. IMO. I think most if not all new cars are designed to "corner flat" by keeping all tires firmly planted for max control, but did this really create the most traction? I think SOME lean is good, and expected.

Tire's man. I know when I had my 69 dodge charger 60s where 'low profile' :histeric: . Radials? Didnt have those yet.We had them good old bias-ply tires. :histeric: Like I said, A true 'mucle-car' is more than just about power. Don't make me bring my 80s sport-touring DeVille up there and show you what I mean. :bouncer: :tease: :nyanya:

brougham
01-17-04, 01:35 PM
Tire's man. I know when I had my 69 dodge charger 60s where 'low profile' :histeric: . Radials? Didnt have those yet.We had them good old bias-ply tires. :histeric: Like I said, A true 'mucle-car' is more than just about power. Don't make me bring my 80s sport-touring DeVille up there and show you what I mean. :bouncer: :tease: :nyanya:

A true 'muscle-car' was bigger car and just about all power. Anything else was a bonus. Most didn't even have sway bars. Between your DeVille or Ralph's Fleetwood, I'd be in that Fleetwood any day for that exact reason. Ralph would probably enjoy to see the differences :histeric:

Ralph
01-18-04, 12:47 AM
A true 'muscle-car' was bigger car and just about all power. Anything else was a bonus. Most didn't even have sway bars. Between your DeVille or Ralph's Fleetwood, I'd be in that Fleetwood any day for that exact reason. Ralph would probably enjoy to see the differences :histeric:

..............but, but, my CCR will keep me on the road no matter how hard I turn on the ice.......right?? :( :histeric: :histeric: :histeric: :rolleyes: :yawn:


Actually, that old Charger or my 1970 Plymouth Fury weren't too bad for handling. I think the Fury was lighter and handled a bit better. It never even had power steering, took some effort to parallel park that beast. That car would have made a he-man even out of Pee-Wee Herman, or Michael Jackson. :D :devil:

themind
01-18-04, 11:46 AM
Can we mix&match? How 'bout my '41 60 Pickup, with upcoming
a dual blown injected Cad 500 & more? Does that qualify?

See pic:

http://he.net/~dirkr/files/41Cad.jpg

-Dirk R.

Ralph
01-18-04, 10:39 PM
Can we mix&match? How 'bout my '41 60 Pickup, with upcoming
a dual blown injected Cad 500 & more? Does that qualify?

See pic:

http://he.net/~dirkr/files/41Cad.jpg

-Dirk R.

:yup: that counts with me Bud! :bonkers:

TimsToy
01-19-04, 10:12 AM
I tend to think that their building them now. Wouldn't the XLR, the CTS-V and the coming STS be considered Modern Day Muscle Cars?

Gotta figure out a way to get ahold of one of those CTS-V's! :lildevil:

nerisauto1
01-19-04, 08:15 PM
93 Eldorado ETC is the Cadillac muscle car of the 90's, I have had 2 that would do 0-60 under 6 secs! quarter under 15! Stickshift Vette and Iroc 350 performance in style! I think they are the least adverstised and known performance cars of the 90's. My current red 93 Eldorado, all stock with the exception of air silencer removed does (G-techPro times) which at most are off by 1,2/10's of a second from actual track times. Does 0-60 of 5.7 with abs fuse removed sound fast? abs fuse removed so traction control doesn't kick in, smoky tires..lol...and 14.1 sec quarter miles sound quick? Muscle car like? I think so, so yeah Cadillac had a sleeper. HotRod Cadillac Eldorado ETC, check the pics out in the cadillac pictures section under my member name, you have to see this bright red caddy! bright red sounds tacky for a Chadillac, but check it out, looks so fine with its chrome rims, dual exhaust and that roar that makes people turn their head, coming from 300hp cadillac only "northstar" V8! Yeah i know the aurora came with the 4.0L.........but...I have smoked many 5.0L and 4.6L mustangs with this bad boy, along with quiet a few hopped up ricers or whatever the young boys call their 4banger hoopties, while riding in class!

Ralph
01-19-04, 11:26 PM
93 Eldorado ETC is the Cadillac muscle car of the 90's, I have had 2 that would do 0-60 under 6 secs! quarter under 15! Stickshift Vette and Iroc 350 performance in style! I think they are the least adverstised and known performance cars of the 90's. My current red 93 Eldorado, all stock with the exception of air silencer removed does (G-techPro times) which at most are off by 1,2/10's of a second from actual track times. Does 0-60 of 5.7 with abs fuse removed sound fast? abs fuse removed so traction control doesn't kick in, smoky tires..lol...and 14.1 sec quarter miles sound quick? Muscle car like? I think so, so yeah Cadillac had a sleeper. HotRod Cadillac Eldorado ETC, check the pics out in the cadillac pictures section under my member name, you have to see this bright red caddy! bright red sounds tacky for a Chadillac, but check it out, looks so fine with its chrome rims, dual exhaust and that roar that makes people turn their head, coming from 300hp cadillac only "northstar" V8! Yeah i know the aurora came with the 4.0L.........but...I have smoked many 5.0L and 4.6L mustangs with this bad boy, along with quiet a few hopped up ricers or whatever the young boys call their 4banger hoopties, while riding in class!

That's cool Dude, and welcome aboard, you too Tim!

OK, so I'm assuming you got the 4.9? If I have an air silencer where is it? I have a good mag article that compared the SS Camaro to the new Cobra, they removed the air silencers and got about 10 more hp! Not bad for a simple trick. Mine is no slouch either, however yours must weigh less=faster.

Night Wolf
01-20-04, 04:02 PM
1993 ETC/STS came with the 295? hp N*.....

..... I never thought about removing the ABS fuse to disable traction control.... the the car will really run low 14's without traction control?

my 4.9 DeVille is only good for high 15's.... I am hoping to do some mods though...there is not much........

Ralph
02-01-04, 04:12 AM
Something I can't figure out. If the limit to FWD is around 300 hp, then how did the 1970 Eldorado with the 500 cu in. engine that produced around 425hp get away with it? I mean, with all the technology today, Cadillac is basically limited to 300 with the Northstar in the Deville, right?

No, I'm not looking for ways to keep fwd around for another 10 years, LOL

Tickle Me Eldo
06-30-04, 08:56 PM
Probably the 1970 Eldo with the 500.
Cadillac has some muscle, but I think a '70 Chevelle SS or Hemi could provide that a little better.

Tickle Me Eldo
06-30-04, 09:01 PM
If the limit to FWD is around 300 hpWhere did this info come from :hmm:

RERM
06-30-04, 09:15 PM
How about the mid-80s 'sport touring' Deville. Stiffer springs,shocks,wider aluminum rims,lower profile tires,F&R Anti-roll bars,larger exhaust,differnt gearing ect. It does have the HT4100 engine :histeric: (hasn't given me any problems yet),It performs pretty good. It will leave some nice marks on the pavment but I try not to do that to often. Still all stock, Just hit 28,000 original miles.

You're kidding!!!, right!!!???

I would agree with the older Cadillacs, 50's, 60's, maybe a 70's model or two. But to call a mid 80's Cadillac muscular, even sporty!!! by comparison a 1986 MB 560SEL could beat a stock IROC-Z!!!! sometimes reading the posts in these forums I feel like I'm the only one who remembers the 80's cars. (not just the ones I happen to like).

Msilva954
06-30-04, 09:52 PM
The post isnt really about "US" considering them muscle cars but what Cadillac produced to be considered even Semi-Sporty.....with which why they had a tighter suspension and what not.

RERM
06-30-04, 10:22 PM
I see....sorry eh!!! :banghead:

But if that's the case, wouldn't the STS (of all years), the ETC (ditto) and the DTS qualify??? :hmm:

Ralph
07-01-04, 01:14 AM
Where did this info come from :hmm:

:welcome: We had a big discussion about it last year, and I was basing that info on articles I read. Sorry I don't have a link.(I usually post them) I also thought it was the general consensus that because of cars actually getting more powerful now, more and more are going to a driveline that can handle the extra torque, etc. (300 C, for ex.) Namely RWD. How many FWD cars can be named today with FWD and 300+ hp? If FWD could handle the extra torque, then cars like the CTS-V could have had a modded Northstar,(FWD) but they don't. I'm not saying FWD drawbacks are the reason CTS's are RWD, but it could be a theory, especially when balance and handling must be considered for a performance car.

And YES, I would still like an explanation of how the '70 Eldo could handle the extra torque, if a Deville today couldn't.

Ralph
07-01-04, 01:21 AM
Cadillac has some muscle, but I think a '70 Chevelle SS or Hemi could provide that a little better.

That's what I would think, considering Caddies were a bit heavier IMO.

Ralph
07-01-04, 01:36 AM
Here are some more factors to consider:

http://www.edmunds.com/ownership/techcenter/articles/43847/article.html

Randy_W
07-01-04, 08:24 AM
:welcome: We had a big discussion about it last year, and I was basing that info on articles I read. Sorry I don't have a link.(I usually post them) I also thought it was the general consensus that because of cars actually getting more powerful now, more and more are going to a driveline that can handle the extra torque, etc. (300 C, for ex.) Namely RWD. How many FWD cars can be named today with FWD and 300+ hp? If FWD could handle the extra torque, then cars like the CTS-V could have had a modded Northstar,(FWD) but they don't. I'm not saying FWD drawbacks are the reason CTS's are RWD, but it could be a theory, especially when balance and handling must be considered for a performance car.

And YES, I would still like an explanation of how the '70 Eldo could handle the extra torque, if a Deville today couldn't.
The transaxles were much stronger, but also much heavier, as were the cars themselves! They got about 10-14 MPG avg. Performance is not a problem if you are willing to put up with the other factors, such as weight, MPG, noise, etc...;)

cruzajc1
07-01-04, 08:48 AM
I consider my 96 STS a muscle car:)


Gus

cruzajc1@aol.com

Imprl59
07-01-04, 12:47 PM
The transaxles were much stronger, but also much heavier, as were the cars themselves! They got about 10-14 MPG avg. Performance is not a problem if you are willing to put up with the other factors, such as weight, MPG, noise, etc...;)
And they ate their HUGE CV joints for breakfast. Look at a late 60's / early 70's eldo and it either has new CV joints or it needs them. If you drive it hard it just chews them up.

Also consider how much room they had under the hood back then. You could never get that much heavy duty stuff under a current cars hood.

Steve B.

RERM
07-01-04, 09:35 PM
Also, remember Gross Horsepower V.s. SAE Net Horsepower. Plus I don't think they cared about Torque Steer back then.

Ralph
07-02-04, 03:50 AM
Good points guys. I also think they had more torque than today, despite the gross ratings back then. My Dad's Olds W-30 455 was rated at 360 gross hp back in 1971, however I read in a recent Musclecar Magazine that the actual Net hp is exactly what a new DTS has, namely 300 hp. (not sure of the torque though)

If those transaxle components were more heavy duty in 1970, you'd think they would last longer, especially if gross hp ratings even things out compared to today's net ratings.

EastOfGratiot
07-15-04, 11:48 PM
Cadillac was a premier performer in the early 1950's. They didn't make a performance splash again until the Northstar came out.

I always wanted a classic Cadillac muscle car, so I decided to re-write history just a bit.

RECIPE:
1) Start with 1 first generation Seville (reasonable weight, decent handling, 4 wheel discs, great looks)
2) replace small block 5.7 litre with a raised deck 7.6 litre engine of the same design.
3) get rid of the electronic engine control fru-fru
4) add in dual exhausts
5) upgrade the gauges
6) put on some decent classic-era aluminum wheels
AND
BANG!

A 400 horsepower Cadillac muscle car that looks like it came off the assembly line.

(see my home page for details)

Smokey
07-16-04, 05:16 PM
Here's my vote:

http://www.firefighting.org/juan/

JohnnyO
07-17-04, 11:43 AM
:coolgleam Early-80's Eldo Touring Coupe had a performance look to it, mostly black or body-color trim and you could even get white-lettered tires as an option. Mechanically the same (not real fast) but it had a better suspension and bigger 225/70-15 tires. If memory serves, Cadillac got the idea from a batch of hopped-up Eldos that Roger Penske's Caddy dealership built and sold back then. An 83-84 Eldo TC is a pretty rare bird, they only built a few hundred each year.