: My dream '95 Fleetwood Brougham!



I~LUV~Caddys8792
03-15-06, 05:08 PM
Upon looking through my '95 Full Line brochure, I came up with my dream Fleetwood Brougham.

Fleetwood Brougham $40,100

-Brougham Package (standard)
-Security Package $360.00

Options:
-Chrome Finish Wheels
-Leather Seating $785.00
-Astroroof $1550.00
-Three Channel Garage Door Opener $135.00
-Engine Coolant Heater
-AM/FM Stereo w/ cassette and single slot CD Player $200.00
-Trunk Mounted CD Changer
-Heritage of ownership badge $25.00

It would be Carmine red, with the full vinyl top, and a neutral leather interior!

N0DIH
03-15-06, 05:30 PM
Don't forget option RPO V4P, the 7000# towing package. HD 4L60E, 3.42 gears, engine oil cooler (radiator cooled), external trans oil cooler, shielded exhaust and mufflers for high heat, and it comes with V08 mech fan. No, don't buy into that it soaks up all the HP, like 10hp and all, I don't buy that, mine is freewheeling most of the time anyway, sometimes light enough to stop and push backwards. Fuel economy testing (extensive!) has shown NO fuel economy degradation with fan on vs off.

BUT, if you want mush mush FE1 suspension, no can do, it is a strict FE2 car. Same front spring rates as the Impala SS FE4, but taller springs. Not sure on rear, still trying to find out.

And go spring for the full size spare while you are at it....

caddycruiser
03-15-06, 06:27 PM
Don't forget option RPO V4P, the 7000# towing package. HD 4L60E, 3.42 gears, engine oil cooler (radiator cooled), external trans oil cooler, shielded exhaust and mufflers for high heat, and it comes with V08 mech fan. No, don't buy into that it soaks up all the HP, like 10hp and all, I don't buy that, mine is freewheeling most of the time anyway, sometimes light enough to stop and push backwards. Fuel economy testing (extensive!) has shown NO fuel economy degradation with fan on vs off.

BUT, if you want mush mush FE1 suspension, no can do, it is a strict FE2 car. Same front spring rates as the Impala SS FE4, but taller springs. Not sure on rear, still trying to find out.

And go spring for the full size spare while you are at it....

Even though it's no drag racer, we certainly love our '92 Roadmaster V92 Tow Pack car. 193k miles or not, the firmer suspension bits give it a very nicely controlled and fairly precise ride and handling motions, and the car is the eptiome of a "tank".

As far as the mechanical fan, I still can't stand the helicopter roar of it, especially when first started in the morning, but the fuel economy is still terrific and it has, BY FAR, the quickest and best working heat and A/C of any car in the driveway, even the '04 Suburban.

One day I still want to at least drive a V4P Fleetwood, but as is, I am more than satisfied with the feel of my '95 FE1, as it feels just as controlled as the Buick, but has better steering that is firmer and crisper. Not sure if there's a lot of new suspension bits or what, but the '95 FE1 is definately a different feel than the '93 FE1...I just wonder which one is closer to "what it's supposed to be."

But yeah, in short, if I could go back 10 years and order my "ideal Fleetwood", I'd check off EVERYTHING, including V4P and the vinyl roof delete...just wouldn't know what color!

I~LUV~Caddys8792
03-15-06, 06:32 PM
Does the V4P Package make it ride significantly firmer also? I had the towing package on my Roadmaster, and I wasn't impressed with the ride at all. I think it rode too firm considering how large it was.

I~LUV~Caddys8792
03-15-06, 06:34 PM
As far as the mechanical fan, I still can't stand the helicopter roar of it, especially when first started in the morning,

YEAH! I hated that sound! It drowned out the sound of the V8. You hear the same thing with the 4.3 V6, that same helicopter roar.

caddycruiser
03-15-06, 06:45 PM
Does the V4P Package make it ride significantly firmer also? I had the towing package on my Roadmaster, and I wasn't impressed with the ride at all. I think it rode too firm considering how large it was.

As N0DIH has said before, it actually does, but at the same time it gets rid of a lot of the natural slop and float of a typical FE1 car. Still not a BMW, but definately firmer enough that some don't like it.


YEAH! I hated that sound! It drowned out the sound of the V8. You hear the same thing with the 4.3 V6, that same helicopter roar.

Drives me nuts, even though I never drive that car, but it does sort of add to the "big, burly" feel of the car.

I~LUV~Caddys8792
03-15-06, 06:49 PM
Alright, so I definetly do not want the V4P package, it rides too firm for me. I like the slop and float of a typical Caddy ride.

If I wanted 3.42:1 gears, I could just switch them out myself.

N0DIH
03-15-06, 08:05 PM
Mine will a little for a few seconds. You can't hear it inside the car. If it is locked up that tight, get a new fan clutch, it is bad or the wrong clutch.

It shouldn't be an issue, none of my cars ever were execpt my 76 Delta 88 when it locked up solid, and I could barely get over 35 mph!! 7 blades locked up tight soaks up some SERIOUS power!

I have heard many Chevy 4.3's roaring like crazy, bad clutches. They shouldn't be that bad. Makes me wonder if there is 2 levels of clutch. Maybe the RM and Caprice got the cheapie and the Cads and Pontiacs and Olds that I had in the past all had the better one?

I know of the rpm only clutch, just that, at low rpm it is right, at high rpm it is loose.

Then the rpm/temp clutch, which is only tight when hot AND low rpms, else it nearly freewheels. That is the one to have.


YEAH! I hated that sound! It drowned out the sound of the V8. You hear the same thing with the 4.3 V6, that same helicopter roar.

N0DIH
03-15-06, 08:12 PM
But you don't get the HD 4L60E and HD Cooling. Must haves.... :thumbsup:

For me? I'll go chase a BMW, and make him work his butt off to keep away. I still like what my friend in his STI said when I went after him "what the f@#$", he still is in shock that his boat gave him such a hard time. And he was already on it boosted. We both had traction issues on the dusty ground, I was having problems fighting TC pulling back my throttle. GGGGGGGRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I don't think I could take the car riding any softer, it would drive me nuts, or make me seasick!! No floaties for me!

Find one and drive it and see, you might actually like it. My mom's FE1 97 Deville is a mush mobile compared to my FWB. I wouldn't survive long. I like my hard cornering.....


Alright, so I definetly do not want the V4P package, it rides too firm for me. I like the slop and float of a typical Caddy ride.

If I wanted 3.42:1 gears, I could just switch them out myself.

96Fleetwood
03-15-06, 08:16 PM
Sounds like a nicely packaged Brougham! Slowly we are turning you away from the dark side of Town Cars... muhahahahahah! :thumbsup:

I~LUV~Caddys8792
03-15-06, 08:20 PM
Sounds like a nicely packaged Brougham! Slowly we are turning you away from the dark side of Town Cars... muhahahahahah! :thumbsup:


LOL! Oh don't think I havent dreamed up Town Cars too! Seeing as how I wanna make the T/C or FWB into a weekend/night cruiser and still have the '92 SDV as the daily driver, I probably wouldnt NEED the FDC like the deVille has. I would want a LOT of power and RWD and a lot of aftermarket, and thats where the FWB comes in.

It costs a couple grand to get a SOHC 4.6 Town Car to the Stock LT1's performance level.

N0DIH
03-15-06, 08:21 PM
Town whats?

Ahh, yeah.....

I~LUV~Caddys8792
03-15-06, 08:25 PM
I don't think I could take the car riding any softer, it would drive me nuts, or make me seasick!! No floaties for me!

Does a FWB w/o the V4P ride and handle as bad as a 1995 vintage Town Car? Now THATs a boat!

caddycruiser
03-15-06, 08:26 PM
LOL! Oh don't think I havent dreamed up Town Cars too! Seeing as how I wanna make the T/C or FWB into a weekend/night cruiser and still have the '92 SDV as the daily driver, I probably wouldnt NEED the FDC like the deVille has. I would want a LOT of power and RWD and a lot of aftermarket, and thats where the FWB comes in.

It costs a couple grand to get a SOHC 4.6 Town Car to the Stock LT1's performance level.

Yeah, it'll be interesting to see what you get, if anything.

From what you've said before, I think a Town Car would probably be more to your liking, but you never know...kinda like me being bored and on Autotrader instead of studying for finals in December, seeing a '95 Fleetwood listed in a color that was nice, with good miles, and a great price...all at a dealer not far from where I live (closest Fleetwood I've EVER come across). Everyone knows how that one worked out...

But I have a feeling, if I hadn't found it, and not gotten another one after time, some TC's also were catching my attention from time to time, and that always was a possibility.

You've already noticed the somewhat substandard build quality from time to time on the Fleetwoods, something not so typical with TC's, and it's also easier to find a Lincoln...glad I went the Caddy way still, but everyone's different.

caddycruiser
03-15-06, 08:30 PM
Does a FWB w/o the V4P ride and handle as bad as a 1995 vintage Town Car? Now THATs a boat!

Never been in a TC over the road, but from what I've read, the Fleetwood is actually a bit tighter than the TC...but the TC is REALLY a marshmallow, so the Caddy is still very soft, but won't instantly make a person as seasick...

So, in short, no:)

I~LUV~Caddys8792
03-15-06, 08:35 PM
but the TC is REALLY a marshmallow, so the Caddy is still very soft, but won't instantly make a person as seasick...

LOL! My best friend and I took a '94 Town Car Executive Series out for a test drive last summer. I really liked it and he hated it because he was getting seasick in the passenger seat! Ha! His exact words "Cars shoudln't be.....that smooth.....I like feeling some bumps" Hah!

caddycruiser
03-15-06, 08:54 PM
LOL! My best friend and I took a '94 Town Car Executive Series out for a test drive last summer. I really liked it and he hated it because he was getting seasick in the passenger seat! Ha! His exact words "Cars shoudln't be.....that smooth.....I like feeling some bumps" Hah!

That'd be me. I'm all for supple and bump absorbing, but floating and bobbing all around is for ships at sea...not a car.

Actually, matter of fact, that's a reason why I CANNOT ride in our '93...at least in the back seat. Driving, I can zip that thing around like a Porsche and love it, but riding makes me sick, even on little trips.

My '95 is just a bit firmer, probably due to fresher shocks, and the steering is even better than on the Suburban, but I'd still like to find a V4P car to test...the descriptions of them sound very much to my liking.

I~LUV~Caddys8792
03-15-06, 10:34 PM
Yeah, its not so bad when you're driving it, but when you're riding in it, watch out!

96Fleetwood
03-15-06, 10:49 PM
You should take a ride in my car with the SS springs, Bilsteins, and Hotchkis bars... no more float here :tisk:

I~LUV~Caddys8792
03-15-06, 11:06 PM
Hey whats the difference between the V4P and the Police Package on the Caprice Classics?

96Fleetwood
03-16-06, 07:56 AM
The Police package has 3.08 gears, Posi, heavy duty lifetime hoses, thicker sways, and higher speed limiter.

I~LUV~Caddys8792
03-16-06, 08:08 AM
So the only differences are the 3.08 gears, heavy duty lifetime hoses, thicker sway bars and the 150 MPH top speed?

Bro-Ham
03-16-06, 08:39 AM
Hi,

The car does look great in red. If you made me go to the fantasy 1996 Cadillac dealership and order one I'd do red, NO vinyl top, tan interior, load it up including astroroof and chrome wheels, and guess I'll take the mush suspension.

I remember one of these back in the day that was dark blue, tan interior, no vinyl roof, chrome wheels and it looked sharp!

I'm not crazy about the way the vinyl top looks on this body style since it looks like an afterthought.

I wish some of these old cars were made still. GM used to make older body styles of cars in south america and I wonder if they still do. I remember reading in world car books as a young-en and was amazed that cars made south of the equator were the previous body style cars that we drove in the US 5+ years ago. If it is still done I would doubt the Fleetwood is being made but perhaps the Caprice still is? How do we find out?

Dave

caddycruiser
03-16-06, 11:03 AM
Hi,

The car does look great in red. If you made me go to the fantasy 1996 Cadillac dealership and order one I'd do red, NO vinyl top, tan interior, load it up including astroroof and chrome wheels, and guess I'll take the mush suspension.

I remember one of these back in the day that was dark blue, tan interior, no vinyl roof, chrome wheels and it looked sharp!

I'm not crazy about the way the vinyl top looks on this body style since it looks like an afterthought.

I wish some of these old cars were made still. GM used to make older body styles of cars in south america and I wonder if they still do. I remember reading in world car books as a young-en and was amazed that cars made south of the equator were the previous body style cars that we drove in the US 5+ years ago. If it is still done I would doubt the Fleetwood is being made but perhaps the Caprice still is? How do we find out?

Dave

Yeah, that is a common practice with a FEW cars, or at least used to be, but it was never the case with the GM B/D bodies. When the Caprice-Roadmaster-Fleetwoods were done, they were DONE for good.

I always wished I had known more about these cars years ago...even if I was pretty young. Actually, I remember going car shopping with the family back in the mid 90's, and never recall seeing a new Fleetwood once. Only rarely saw one around town, I think a blue '93 Brougham, being driven by a middle aged lady who collected antiques...and it was always FILTHY. Still was intrigued by it, but wished I could have seen a new one back in it's hay day.

Katshot
03-16-06, 03:10 PM
You can keep the mechanical fan, I'll take the dual electric ones. We did testing on them too years ago and found that the electric ones provide better cooling in "normal" driving conditions. I define "normal" driving conditions as normal city and highway driving, stop and go traffic situations etc. We found that although the mechanical fan is supposed to give better cooling, we couldn't figure out how. Our all-electric fan cars gave better performance especially around town in low speed situations. It was really evident with respect to air conditioner performance in stop and go traffic. Hey, why do you think Cadillac uses the all-electric fan cooling on all the limo and livery cars? On top of that, it may not be a lot but the mechanical fan DOES rob a small amount of horsepower.
I just don't see a downside of using all electric fans.

Bro-Ham
03-16-06, 03:51 PM
Hi,

I remember when...the 1993 Fleetwood came out. I was about 25 years old and hustled over to the local Cad dealer to drive it. It was a base Fleetwood with no vinyl top and it was so unreal to see a large Cadillac again! I will never forget - - my jaw dropped when I saw that mile-long dash!

I also remember seeing one of the very last 1996 cars sitting at Anderson Cadillac, near my office. White with white top and tan interior. A freind of mine was the sales manager and he intended to hold out for sticker price on that car because he thought there would be a rush of buyers since the model was discontinued. The buyers obviously weren't in a hurry since that car sat in the showroom window for a long time.

I keep having dreams of long and sexy rear drive Cads with big V8 engines. I think it's time for a really, really cool new model!

Dave

caddycruiser
03-16-06, 04:02 PM
You can keep the mechanical fan, I'll take the dual electric ones. We did testing on them too years ago and found that the electric ones provide better cooling in "normal" driving conditions. I define "normal" driving conditions as normal city and highway driving, stop and go traffic situations etc. We found that although the mechanical fan is supposed to give better cooling, we couldn't figure out how. Our all-electric fan cars gave better performance especially around town in low speed situations. It was really evident with respect to air conditioner performance in stop and go traffic. Hey, why do you think Cadillac uses the all-electric fan cooling on all the limo and livery cars? On top of that, it may not be a lot but the mechanical fan DOES rob a small amount of horsepower.
I just don't see a downside of using all electric fans.

That's a very good point. Like I said, I can't stand the roaring alone, but it also does seem to put a drag on the general performance, at least a bit.

It would make sense that the electric fans would be both more efficient and better cooling, which is why I never understood the point of changing to mechanical fans for tow pack cars...were they supposed to be tougher or better cooling, or what? That never made sense.

N0DIH
03-16-06, 04:20 PM
If it takes any HP during normal driving compared to the electrics, it has to be less than 1hp. Maybe 1-2 tops when fully engaged. Remember it is a temp/rpm clutch, so it won't see much rpm at all when the clutch is tight. We all know the laws of conservation of energy, so the electrics are gonna have to draw power from somewhere, the alternator. I think it really balances out more than we want to give it credit.

And for normal driving cooling? I'll take the mech. Why? I don't have the issues with the electrics not turning on till 220F or so, mine is always on, and I always have the 280w or so secondary fan, which is on anytime AC is on. I have yet to see my eng temp exceed 95C in 90F+ temps w/AC on. Ever. I watch it often in warmer temps. So you will have a much higher hysterisis of temp with the electrics than mechanical fan.

I think most people give the mech fan a very bad rap. It isn't bad, it is very quiet in normal operation, rarely ever tightens up (maybe 30 seconds to 2 min when cold it is tight), except maybe in 90+F traffic with AC on, it tightens up for a short time until temps come down or rpm goes up, still not audible from inside the car, and barely noticable on the gas pedal. Again, it is tight for VERY little of the time.

In reality in defense of the electrics, one electric does a lot for it, even with the mechanical fan disabled (belt pulled) in 85-90F temps the temps fluxuated more, but still never got over 102C. If the dual electrics would come on at cooler temps, they would do well, but there is a GOOD reason GM put them on for the V92 and V4P towing packages. They knew from their testing in the worst case conditions, the electrics would not be sufficient to cool the car sufficiently.


You can keep the mechanical fan, I'll take the dual electric ones. We did testing on them too years ago and found that the electric ones provide better cooling in "normal" driving conditions. I define "normal" driving conditions as normal city and highway driving, stop and go traffic situations etc. We found that although the mechanical fan is supposed to give better cooling, we couldn't figure out how. Our all-electric fan cars gave better performance especially around town in low speed situations. It was really evident with respect to air conditioner performance in stop and go traffic. Hey, why do you think Cadillac uses the all-electric fan cooling on all the limo and livery cars? On top of that, it may not be a lot but the mechanical fan DOES rob a small amount of horsepower.
I just don't see a downside of using all electric fans.

Katshot
03-16-06, 04:28 PM
As I recall, the mechanical fan "can" flow more air than the elecrtic one so it has slightly better max. cooling capability. The problem is that little bit extra causes a pretty major compromise in other areas.

N0DIH
03-16-06, 05:44 PM
IIRC, the mechanical fans can pull more cfm to a deeper pressure drop than an electric can possibly do. With a designed cooling system, aka like our cars, cfm of the electrics in there is a known variable. With the mechanical fan, they were able to determine it has higher capabilities for this car. Is the V4P radiator thicker? This might be a good reason for it. The electrics can't pull through a thick radiator well, mechancials can, of course, it takes more power to do it.

Flexalite doens't assign CFM values to mechanicals for this very reason, there is too many variables. But with that and the single (secondary) electric in addition to it, that is a tremendous amount of airflow.

And the primary fan on the LT1 cars is also smaller than the secondary isn't it? Or is that just the std base fans?

Good reading on fans:
http://carcraft.com/techarticles/53738/index3.html

http://www.flex-a-lite.com/auto/html/frequent-question.html

Katshot
03-16-06, 06:03 PM
I seem to recall (I can verify this tomorrow by checking my literature) that the base model uses two 150 watt fans and the optional "High-Capacity Cooling" (V03) uses a 150 watt primary fan and a 240 watt secondary fan.

caddycruiser
03-16-06, 07:56 PM
Here's something I've wondered about also, when these cars were new:

1) Was it a strong selling car, or did they tend to sit on lots a while?
2) Was production high enough that Caddy dealers would typically always have a few on hand, or was it usually like 1 or 2 at most? Were a lot specially ordered (I'm assuming YES, here)?
3) Did they ever have to use rebates or other incentives to move them?

I've always just been curious how they sold when new, especially since I never remember even seeing them on lots back then (not that I knew what I was looking for, but still...)

Bro-Ham
03-16-06, 11:28 PM
Here's something I've wondered about also, when these cars were new:

1) Was it a strong selling car, or did they tend to sit on lots a while?
2) Was production high enough that Caddy dealers would typically always have a few on hand, or was it usually like 1 or 2 at most? Were a lot specially ordered (I'm assuming YES, here)?
3) Did they ever have to use rebates or other incentives to move them?

I've always just been curious how they sold when new, especially since I never remember even seeing them on lots back then (not that I knew what I was looking for, but still...)

Hi,

The 93-96 Fleetwood Brougham was indeed rare on dealer lots when new yet wasn't a breakthrough car for Cadillac, which caused the demise of the model. Cadillac didn't have many takers for the overweight looking Fleetwood in a luxury car marketplace where the look of the lean and muscular German competition was capturing the enthusiasm and dollars of an ever increasing number of luxury car purchasers. The Fleetwood had always been a top of the line car in the past but this model, like the last of the Brougham models before it, was simply a moderately priced luxury car in the middle of the Cadillac range and was only intended to compete against the Lincoln Town Car. Plus, Cadillac already sold most of its full-size customers on the more contemporary and easier to drive smaller front drive deVille. The rear drive of the Fleetwood was a hard sell to most customers and caused the sales of the car to be more seasonal, especially in the north, and most dealers I knew hesitated to stock the car in inventory except for the summer and then many worried they'd be stuck with the cars in the fall as leftovers when the market dried up due to "traditional" buyers going into hibernation or heading south for the winter. I can't remember if it had rebates but I would bet it did, especially at the end of the model run.

Lincoln did a nice job with the restyled 1990 Town car which had delicate and elegant lines that borrowed elements from the previous model yet looked "with it" plus alloy wheels were standard and no vinyl tops were available.

The last totally new full-size rear drive cars introduced by GM in 1977 were a groundbreaking success as the first downsized cars that still maintained fantastic big car looks with large interiors and yet were instantly of the day and were very attractive inside and out. The 1980 updating of these cars was meant to be on the market until 1983 but stuck around unchanged until 1990-92 when they were only lightly "freshened" but it wasn't enough to make the outdated car, which was becoming increasingly stale, appear new enough to capture any kind of viable market. The 1993-96 Fleetwood, like the Roadmaster and Caprice, were poorly executed and didn't capture enough interest in the market to survive and the Corvette V8 is probably the only thing that redeems these cars today. Too bad Cadillac miscalculated and goofed so badly since now we don't have any rear drive Cads. I still can't bring myself to own a Town Car. I think Cadillac is finally turning around lately and I'm optimistic for the future!

Dave

caddycruiser
03-16-06, 11:48 PM
Wow, I really wish I had been aware of these cars back then!

That does sound exactly like one would think, though. Not a huge seller, and not a lot of them around, while the TC was produced and sold in higher numbers due to being a little more modern.

I think, had things like the interior and general build quality been better (though the Caddy's interior is very nice, and MUCH better than any of the other B and D cars), and maybe the styling been just a tad fresher, they probably would have done better. Luckily, the Vette V8 did become a great selling point in the last 3 years, and is still one of the top reasons these cars are actually so coveted today as 10+ year old used values.

Bro-Ham
03-17-06, 12:13 AM
Hi,

I really respect you guys who have the 93-96 Fleetwoods because you all are really, really passionate about them! I love it!

D

I~LUV~Caddys8792
03-17-06, 12:26 AM
I've got a good responce to this conversation, but I will post tomorrow when im not so tired!

HotRodSaint
03-17-06, 09:14 AM
My dream Fleetwood would be a '95 or '96 Black car with Red interior or a Mary Kay Pink car with Black interior.

I think Sandy has mentioned a Fleetwood 60 Special being produced specifically for top Fleetwood dealers that were available in Black or White with a true red interior. I'd like to track one of those down.

I~LUV~Caddys8792
03-17-06, 09:50 AM
Hi,

The 93-96 Fleetwood Brougham was indeed rare on dealer lots when new yet wasn't a breakthrough car for Cadillac, which caused the demise of the model. Cadillac didn't have many takers for the overweight looking Fleetwood in a luxury car marketplace where the look of the lean and muscular German competition was capturing the enthusiasm and dollars of an ever increasing number of luxury car purchasers. The Fleetwood had always been a top of the line car in the past but this model, like the last of the Brougham models before it, was simply a moderately priced luxury car in the middle of the Cadillac range and was only intended to compete against the Lincoln Town Car. Plus, Cadillac already sold most of its full-size customers on the more contemporary and easier to drive smaller front drive deVille.

Like you had said earlier Dave, the 93-96 Fleetwood, 91-96 Caprice, 91-96 Roadmaster and the 91-92 Custom Cruiser were designed as cheaply as possible. They basically took the same interior plans and stretched the body over them, and wanted to get that really rakish windshield, this is why they have that super long dash and shorter hood than the previous generation. It's things like that that really kill it for me, plus the low budget interior materials and lack of amenities that the deVilles have standard. If they would have done it like they did in the '70s, they would have made the FWB using the same D body, but they would have all the niceties of the deVille, plus more features.



Lincoln did a nice job with the restyled 1990 Town car which had delicate and elegant lines that borrowed elements from the previous model yet looked "with it" plus alloy wheels were standard and no vinyl tops were available.

Yeah, The 1990 Town Car won Motor Trend's car of the year in '90. I'd love to read the article on that, but I cannot find it anywhere online. The Town Car looked very formal and elegant, probably more elegant than the big, brash 93-96 Fleetwood. They're both very good looking cars, in different ways. But the Fleetwood definetly looks more special nowadays. It's much more attention grabbing, plus of course, the Fleetwoods are a lot more rare.



The 1993-96 Fleetwood, like the Roadmaster and Caprice, were poorly executed and didn't capture enough interest in the market to survive and the Corvette V8 is probably the only thing that redeems these cars today. Too bad Cadillac miscalculated and goofed so badly since now we don't have any rear drive Cads. I still can't bring myself to own a Town Car. I think Cadillac is finally turning around lately and I'm optimistic for the future!

Dave

As stated earlier, I think their biggest fault was not putting enough money or effort into the B & D bodies, I think if they did the same as Ford had done with the Crown Vic, Grand Marquis and Town Car, they would have sold many more, and they probably would have never stopped making them. I wonder why they cut costs and development so much? Did they know the market was dying? (literally!) For as many problems as I have with the FWB's, theres a certain feeling that owning one would give you, a feeling that the Town Car could never give you. Town Cars just don't look as sturdy and as solid, but in fact they are probably less fragile and better built. Plus, a Town Car is nothing special like a FWB is, unless its a Cartier or something rare.

Night Wolf
03-17-06, 10:31 AM
I have always liked the sound of a mechanical fan.... at idling, when throttling up and everything... makes it sound like a cool truck. That was cool with the '79, when turning up a steep hill it would downshift into first, hit the gas a bit and RPM go up to about 2,000 and just chug up.... and the cool sound of the fan. I am glad the Jeep has a mechanical fan with the same, cool sound too.

Night Wolf
03-17-06, 10:39 AM
Hi,

The car does look great in red. If you made me go to the fantasy 1996 Cadillac dealership and order one I'd do red, NO vinyl top, tan interior, load it up including astroroof and chrome wheels, and guess I'll take the mush suspension.

I remember one of these back in the day that was dark blue, tan interior, no vinyl roof, chrome wheels and it looked sharp!

I'm not crazy about the way the vinyl top looks on this body style since it looks like an afterthought.

I wish some of these old cars were made still. GM used to make older body styles of cars in south america and I wonder if they still do. I remember reading in world car books as a young-en and was amazed that cars made south of the equator were the previous body style cars that we drove in the US 5+ years ago. If it is still done I would doubt the Fleetwood is being made but perhaps the Caprice still is? How do we find out?

Dave

IIRC Caprice is still made in China.... ad Holden is doing quite a bit of stuff too...

Night Wolf
03-17-06, 10:57 AM
Its easy to forget how much power an electrical fan draws... especially a high powered one, then add in two or more.... and you are really putting a load on the alternator... which in turns takes engine power to run....

The reason most new cars use electrical fans is because most new cars are FWD... and you can have a mechanical fan with an transversly mounted engine....

Bro-Ham
03-17-06, 11:02 AM
Like you had said earlier Dave, the 93-96 Fleetwood, 91-96 Caprice, 91-96 Roadmaster and the 91-92 Custom Cruiser were designed as cheaply as possible. They basically took the same interior plans and stretched the body over them, and wanted to get that really rakish windshield, this is why they have that super long dash and shorter hood than the previous generation. It's things like that that really kill it for me, plus the low budget interior materials and lack of amenities that the deVilles have standard. If they would have done it like they did in the '70s, they would have made the FWB using the same D body, but they would have all the niceties of the deVille, plus more features.



Yeah, The 1990 Town Car won Motor Trend's car of the year in '90. I'd love to read the article on that, but I cannot find it anywhere online. The Town Car looked very formal and elegant, probably more elegant than the big, brash 93-96 Fleetwood. They're both very good looking cars, in different ways. But the Fleetwood definetly looks more special nowadays. It's much more attention grabbing, plus of course, the Fleetwoods are a lot more rare.



As stated earlier, I think their biggest fault was not putting enough money or effort into the B & D bodies, I think if they did the same as Ford had done with the Crown Vic, Grand Marquis and Town Car, they would have sold many more, and they probably would have never stopped making them. I wonder why they cut costs and development so much? Did they know the market was dying? (literally!) For as many problems as I have with the FWB's, theres a certain feeling that owning one would give you, a feeling that the Town Car could never give you. Town Cars just don't look as sturdy and as solid, but in fact they are probably less fragile and better built. Plus, a Town Car is nothing special like a FWB is, unless its a Cartier or something rare.

Hi,

This was a relatively low volume series of cars and GM could make more money using the plant they were assembled in for producing trucks, which were far more profitable and also at the height of popularity with cheap gas prices at the time. The RMaster/Caprice/Fltwd cars were definitely styled for a limited and dwindling market which was the kiss of death for them. The Corvette V8 was put in these cars to cut costs and wasn't an interesting feature for most Fleetwood buyers who didn't exactly buy the car for high performance. I'm still upset with Cadillac for half baking so many cars for so many years!

Dave

caddycruiser
03-17-06, 11:21 AM
IIRC Caprice is still made in China.... ad Holden is doing quite a bit of stuff too...

Well, a car with the Caprice name is, but it's not the same car. What was asked about was things like in Mexico where all the old tooling for the old VW Bugs was taken, and then they continued producing "new" old ones...up until just a couple years ago.

Katshot
03-17-06, 12:12 PM
Its easy to forget how much power an electrical fan draws... especially a high powered one, then add in two or more.... and you are really putting a load on the alternator... which in turns takes engine power to run....

The reason most new cars use electrical fans is because most new cars are FWD... and you can have a mechanical fan with an transversly mounted engine....

Packaging is certainly the main reason transverse-mounted engines use electric fans but why do you suppose longitudinally-mounted engines still use them? Bottom line, the electric fans are less of a parasitic load on the engine. Mechanical fans are ALWAYS a load. Variable, yes but ALWAYS a load. They also require a PTO which again is a source of power loss, and more parts which increase the liklihood of failure.
Electric fans on the other hand can cover a greater area of the radiator, because of multiple use, can be staged and programmed for specific engagement points which allow the engine temp to be maintained more accurately, and are totally off above a specific road speed so they offer ZERO load during cruising. They also do not require a shroud so they are far more compact and easier to install or replace. The average electric fan requires little more than the removal of 3 to 4 screws and disconnecting of a plug to remove.
Like I said before, I really see no down-side to using electric fans.

Bro-Ham
03-17-06, 12:13 PM
Well, a car with the Caprice name is, but it's not the same car. What was asked about was things like in Mexico where all the old tooling for the old VW Bugs was taken, and then they continued producing "new" old ones...up until just a couple years ago.

Hi,

To clarify, back in the 50's, 60's, 70's, 80's and possibly later, GM made cars in South America that were simply older designs that had been discontinued in the US. It would be interesting to know if it was still happening.

Dave