: I Have the 180 HP H/O 307 "9" V8 in my Car!!!



DopeStar 156
03-14-06, 05:15 PM
Last time my car was in the shop my mechanic came up and told me my car had the H/O 307 from the late 80's Olds 442's under my hood. My VIN indicates it's the "Y" engine but he said it is definitely the H/O "9" engine. I'm inclined to believe him because all thoughout my membership here my 307 to me isn't a "dog" unlike the others around here who people call sluggish. My 307 IS capable of burning rubber as I've done it a couple times and I have absolutely no problems with acceleration with my car. Infact after I had my TCC Solenoid replaced today my car is performing better than it ever has. I decided to explore this idea today and I drove this '87 Brougham that was for sale nearby, I lied to the guy and said I wanted another Brougham. His 307 ran absolutely nothing like mine. His wouldn't accelerate very well up hills and there was nothing wrong with it, it's just the way it ran. When compared to mine it accelerated much slower and just seemed sluggish by comparison. I'm excited, do I really have the H/O 180 HP 307 as opposed to the 140 HP 307?!

caddycruiser
03-14-06, 05:19 PM
Wow, that's an odd thing...wonder who here can give more insight:hmm:

Destroyer
03-14-06, 07:37 PM
Back when I had my 307 87 FWB there was talk that a few of the roller 307 motors did indeed wind up in FWB's. I cannot confirm it nor deny it, mine certainly did NOT have it. You always did say your car felt quick, I always thought A:you dont know what quick feels like or B:you are trippin on acid.......lol. Looks like I may have been wrong, hope so. :thumbsup:

CoupeDevilleRob
03-14-06, 08:35 PM
There's definately a way to be sure, you just need to get the serial number from the block and find out how to break it down. I'm sure there are websites with all that info. It would be awesome if your car came from Cadillac with that engine, kinda like a factory sleeper, I guess.

DopeStar 156
03-14-06, 09:56 PM
Are you saying it might be a factory error?!!? COOL!!! LOL!
$$$$$

davesdeville
03-14-06, 10:01 PM
I've heard 307 HO's were available in coachbuilder and tow package Broughams. Maybe yours has the tow package.

DopeStar 156
03-14-06, 10:11 PM
I've heard 307 HO's were available in coachbuilder and tow package Broughams. Maybe yours has the tow package.
Is it possible to have the tow package without the little hitch in the back? I have nothing back there.

CoupeDevilleRob
03-14-06, 10:18 PM
It is an old car, the hitch could have been taken off long before you got it.

Destroyer
03-14-06, 10:20 PM
Are you saying it might be a factory error?!!? COOL!!! LOL!
$$$$$Its a rumor that I have heard. Not that the 442 motor was some ultra high performance motor but it would definately have substantially more push than the 140hp stocker. The RWD 442 stopped being produced in '88 I believe. Its possible that some of the left over motors wound up in other cars. It would be real cool if you could verify what your mechanic said, I'm sure it will add value to your ride and certainly would make it more unique.

DopeStar 156
03-14-06, 10:34 PM
Its a rumor that I have heard. Not that the 442 motor was some ultra high performance motor but it would definately have substantially more push than the 140hp stocker. The RWD 442 stopped being produced in '88 I believe. Its possible that some of the left over motors wound up in other cars. It would be real cool if you could verify what your mechanic said, I'm sure it will add value to your ride and certainly would make it more unique.
That's immediately what I thought. Not that I would EVER sell this car. I intend to keep this car forever. I have to say though it does have nice pick up.

CoupeDevilleRob
03-14-06, 10:42 PM
Sure, keep rubbing it in.

I~LUV~Caddys8792
03-14-06, 11:29 PM
Welll so you weren't kidding! It must be a "9" code 307 because when I drove that '90 Brougham D'Elegance with the 307, I could not for the life of me get even a little squeal from the rear tires....even from a dead stop!

I wanna see a race between yours and a "Y" code 307 Brougham!

brougham
03-15-06, 12:37 AM
Just go into the dealer and ask them about your car. They can look it up on the computer and tell you all the options it has. If it doesn't say that you have that engine in the VIN number then it probably doesn't have it but the engine could even have been changed before you got the car if someone wrecked the old one. Who knows.

DopeStar 156
03-15-06, 12:50 AM
Welll so you weren't kidding! It must be a "9" code 307 because when I drove that '90 Brougham D'Elegance with the 307, I could not for the life of me get even a little squeal from the rear tires....even from a dead stop!

I wanna see a race between yours and a "Y" code 307 Brougham!
HAHA! I'll have to set that up sometime, I just don't know anyone else with a Brougham.....

That's not a bad idea, I'll ask the guy at the shop who told me it was the H/O 307 why he thought so even though he was as sure as he would be in identifying his own kid.

Night Wolf
03-15-06, 01:08 AM
Wow....

Well, that would explain why your car felt "fast" and would do high performance things like spin the tires from a stop :)

Thats cool though. Very cool. The had the nice heads, since that was the major drawback to the 307. That 307 Brougham you test drove is the same 307 power all of us have delt with.

The HO may have came witht he towing package... you'd also have like 3.11 maybe Posi too, gears instead of 2.53.... that would make it alot faster too... upgraded brakes and suspension etc....

Or maybe somebody swapped it in some time....

HO 307 is close(er) to the 425 then a base 307... still quite a difference tho... nothing like a big block! :).

Keep us updated, that'd be cool... and pretty rare too.... 40hp is always something cool to have found :).

Night Wolf
03-15-06, 01:09 AM
Just go into the dealer and ask them about your car. They can look it up on the computer and tell you all the options it has. If it doesn't say that you have that engine in the VIN number then it probably doesn't have it but the engine could even have been changed before you got the car if someone wrecked the old one. Who knows.


They won't be able to go back that far.... when I asked even for my '93 Coupe, they said its too old... even for recall work and all that... I doubt going to the dealer would get much done.

FredMaxwell
03-15-06, 08:11 AM
I have the 425 in my '79 and it is not quick at all.
It'll burn all hell out of the tires because that motor made so much torque.. and it flies down the highway.

I can't imagine a big fine Cadillac with any less HP than mine has though.
I always thought it was underpowered as far as acceleration.


I believe the carb 425 is rated right at 180...

Well,
As an aside my ex wife was amazed at the acceleration since she had only driven her import.
That little mazda automobile had a horrible small 60hp 1.6L motor in there.
PS: I let her drive the Cad once.

pimpin88
03-15-06, 08:47 AM
i could burn rubber before the swap to the VIN 9 cam. so now :stirpot: :lildevil: .



Dope and i really do have twins. same color and they are both VIN 9!!!!!!!

I~LUV~Caddys8792
03-15-06, 10:40 AM
The HO may have came witht he towing package... you'd also have like 3.11 maybe Posi too, gears instead of 2.53.... that would make it alot faster too... upgraded brakes and suspension etc....

So you mean that Cadillac possibly put in the HO 307 in the towing package cars with out stating so in the brochures? In the 1989 full line brochure, Cadillac mentions the trailer towing package, but they say that its just suspension and differential. They make no mention of a different motor. They just have the one thats rated 140/255.

Doesnt the HO 307 lose 10 lb/ft to the regular 307?

N0DIH
03-15-06, 01:05 PM
Check for V92 option ont he SPID. What gearing do you have?

By all means, if you have a HO 307, then swap to 3.73's, it will like it!

Yes, 307 HO's were down 10 ft torque, but up 40 hp...

Look in the VIN for "9" where the engine code is.

I'll dig up some poop on ID'ing the HP 307, I have seen it somewhere on the net. Likely Olds FAQ, or Tom Lentz's site.

http://tlentz.oldsgmail.com/specifications.html

What is your carb P/N? Look on the sides, runs top/bottom. Like a 1705xxxxx number.

http://tlentz.oldsgmail.com/more_power.html

Once Olds put on the 7A heads on the 307 w/442 cam (0.440 lift cam, easy way to tell if you really have it, measure the rocker arm deflection, must remove valve cover) the 307 HO was getting lamer and lamer. If it was me? I would find me a set of 1984 and older 307 "5A" heads and at least ensure I am getting the full 180 hp.

" * VIN Y. About 140hp and 235ft-lbs (depends upon year and where you get your info). Unless you have an H/O or 442, you have this engine.
* VIN 9. About 180hp and 245ft-lbs (again, stats vary). Only available on the '83-'84 Hurst/Olds and '85-'87 442. I've heard rumors that a few Caddilacs had these too."

Tom is incorrect on the 235 ft-lb, it is really 255. Probably was a typo, there was a lot of bad info on the 307 out there.

brougham
03-15-06, 02:55 PM
They won't be able to go back that far.... when I asked even for my '93 Coupe, they said its too old... even for recall work and all that... I doubt going to the dealer would get much done.

Maybe they just didn't want to do it for you because it worked for mine and it's a 1991. They need to be able to look stuff like that up for when you get parts.

N0DIH
03-15-06, 04:03 PM
They CANNOT refuse recall work, that is federally mandated. They HAVE to. Call Cadillac, deal with them direct, tell them who told you what. Let Cadillac deal with the dealer then. Recalls have no timeline.

Even if it is a car that is 50 years old, they have to honor the recall.

OldsSW
03-17-06, 12:41 PM
If your VIN states the "Y" code 307, why would your mechanic think it is a "9" code? Additionally, when the "9" code engine went to a roller cam and the 7A heads in '86, they were rated at 170hp, and 245ft-lbs. Only the 5A head motors were good for 180hp.

Have you decoded your SPID to see what gearing your car has? This would make a significant difference in performance. A friend of mine had a Buick wagon (fullsize) with a 307 Y code, and 3.23 gears. I have an Olds wagon (fullsize) with a 307 "Y" code and 2.93 gears. His car could easily get rubber, where mine couldn't.

Another factor is that I find very few people who own 307's have them tuned properly. With miles of vacuum hose, the mystery of E4ME carb, and just the fact that it's an Olds motor, few people have theirs in tip top shape.

Here's a tip to solve the mystery. Check the harmonic damper on your engine. If it is a solid cast peice, you have a Y code engine. If you have a rubber damper, it's a "9" code.

My guess is that you have a "Y" code that has good gearing and tuned up and running like it should.

I~LUV~Caddys8792
03-17-06, 01:59 PM
I think it's really wierd to have a V8 that can't get rubber!

N0DIH
03-17-06, 02:26 PM
The 5A to 7A headed 307 "Y" went from 150 to 140, so it makes sense the HO would do the same. I just never actually saw published #'s on it.

The "Y" 307 was LV2, if you have it, you don't have HO 307.

If you have LG8, you have the HO 307....

I forgot about the harmonic balancer/damper, good catch! That is the easy way for sure. The 307 "Y" had a solid steel hub like the 260 Olds did.


If your VIN states the "Y" code 307, why would your mechanic think it is a "9" code? Additionally, when the "9" code engine went to a roller cam and the 7A heads in '86, they were rated at 170hp, and 245ft-lbs. Only the 5A head motors were good for 180hp.

Have you decoded your SPID to see what gearing your car has? This would make a significant difference in performance. A friend of mine had a Buick wagon (fullsize) with a 307 Y code, and 3.23 gears. I have an Olds wagon (fullsize) with a 307 "Y" code and 2.93 gears. His car could easily get rubber, where mine couldn't.

Another factor is that I find very few people who own 307's have them tuned properly. With miles of vacuum hose, the mystery of E4ME carb, and just the fact that it's an Olds motor, few people have theirs in tip top shape.

Here's a tip to solve the mystery. Check the harmonic damper on your engine. If it is a solid cast peice, you have a Y code engine. If you have a rubber damper, it's a "9" code.

My guess is that you have a "Y" code that has good gearing and tuned up and running like it should.

Night Wolf
03-17-06, 03:39 PM
I have the 425 in my '79 and it is not quick at all.
It'll burn all hell out of the tires because that motor made so much torque.. and it flies down the highway.

I can't imagine a big fine Cadillac with any less HP than mine has though.
I always thought it was underpowered as far as acceleration.


I believe the carb 425 is rated right at 180...

Well,
As an aside my ex wife was amazed at the acceleration since she had only driven her import.
That little mazda automobile had a horrible small 60hp 1.6L motor in there.
PS: I let her drive the Cad once.


Then honestly, your 425 isn't running right. Either that, or all the qucik, easy and cheap "performance" mods to my 425 really opened it up. Yeah it only ran a 17.5 @78mph in he 1/4 mile..... but it was quick... lay rubber from a stop, floor it at 30 and it would put you in the seat and raise the front end... and manually keep it in 2nd above 85 and it would just pull really nice.

The 425 is underrated at 180hp, yes.... but 320ft-lbs torque at 2,000RPM is what moved it.

Night Wolf
03-17-06, 03:45 PM
The HO 307 lost 10ft-lbs of toqrue? So +40hp but -10 tq..... gosh..... I thought it actually gained torque.... is the HO 307 really all that much better then? Seems like a HO 307 is still no comparison to a 425....

Well, better start up on my 307 reasearch since I'll be inheriting one.... damn thing has nearly 200k miles on it tho.... I guess I should just hold off for that472/500 swap...

N0DIH
03-17-06, 04:19 PM
A friend of mine's dad had a T-Top Eldo w/fuel 425 and that thing would darn near drag the rear bumper when you would nail it off the line. For a 425, it did run pretty good, despite the heavy car.

They had a 1977 XS Toro too, 403 and wraparound back window. They were closely matched for power, the Toro felt a little lighter. Power was close on them.


Then honestly, your 425 isn't running right. Either that, or all the qucik, easy and cheap "performance" mods to my 425 really opened it up. Yeah it only ran a 17.5 @78mph in he 1/4 mile..... but it was quick... lay rubber from a stop, floor it at 30 and it would put you in the seat and raise the front end... and manually keep it in 2nd above 85 and it would just pull really nice.

The 425 is underrated at 180hp, yes.... but 320ft-lbs torque at 2,000RPM is what moved it.

I~LUV~Caddys8792
03-17-06, 05:25 PM
A friend of mine's dad had a T-Top Eldo w/fuel 425 and that thing would darn near drag the rear bumper when you would nail it off the line. For a 425, it did run pretty good, despite the heavy car.

They had a 1977 XS Toro too, 403 and wraparound back window. They were closely matched for power, the Toro felt a little lighter. Power was close on them.

Yup, I remember driving my friend's grandpa's '78 Toronado with the 403, it was surprisingly powerful for 190hp in that 4600lb yacht! I remember excess pitch under heavy acceleration from a stop ;) and quite good passing power on the freeway!

190hp @ 3600 RPM and 325 lb/ft @ 2000 RPM!

If that car is say a 17.3 second 1/4 mile, than a 17.3 is nothing to be ashamed about! :D

DopeStar 156
03-17-06, 05:38 PM
Since it's been warmer out I've been able to drive with the windows down and does my engine sound good! I definitely can't wait to get a louder muffler for it.

I~LUV~Caddys8792
03-17-06, 08:11 PM
Yeah your 307 sounded nothing like that one in the '90 Brougham I drove...that engine was so quiet, you could barely hear that engine with the windows down!

Night Wolf
03-17-06, 08:25 PM
Now you need to get some High Output badges for the car and put them on the car.... and move the Cadillac badge on the trunk lid back :).

DopeStar 156
03-17-06, 09:30 PM
Now you need to get some High Output badges for the car and put them on the car.... and move the Cadillac badge on the trunk lid back :).
I tried to move the Cadillac script back over to the right side where it belongs but the ammount of crap under it where it is now, was impossible to get off-a there. I just ended up putting it back on from where I took it off from. I was thinking of getting the underline emblem like what was under the "Fleetwood" script on the early 80's ones and putting it under the Cadillac script so it doesn't look so isolated. The "5.0 LITER" plaque looks just fine where it is. There's no way to move the Cadillac script without having to take a sander to the trunk lid.

OldsSW
03-17-06, 09:58 PM
I think it's really wierd to have a V8 that can't get rubber!

There were plenty of cars made from the mid 1970's to the mid 1980's with V8 engines that couldn't spin there tires off the line. These were the days of trying to make engines meet emissions standards and still get reasonable fuel mileage. In fact there were 5.0L V8's that made LESS power than the 307 Olds. Most Ford 302's from the mid 70s to the early 80s (pre EFI) around 130-135 hp. Some 305 Chev's and Pontiac 301s were rated around this power level too. Then there were the small V8's of the early 80's, the 267 Chev, 255 Ford, 265 Pontiac, etc, which were lucky to make 115-120hp.


that engine was so quiet, you could barely hear that engine with the windows down!

I find it rare to actually find a 307 that is quiet anymore. Most of them around here seem to have minor exhaust leaks at the manifolds. The one in that '90 Brougham just probably had a leak free exhaust, and still had a resinator intact. Most exhaust shops install tail pipes without the resinator, which increases the sound level. I removed the cat and resinator on a 307 car I had, and it gave the car some rumble, while stock it was probably as quiet as that '90 Brougham.


The HO 307 lost 10ft-lbs of toqrue? So +40hp but -10 tq..... gosh..... I thought it actually gained torque.... is the HO 307 really all that much better then? Seems like a HO 307 is still no comparison to a 425....

You're right, its not much compared to a 425. Even the 5A headed 307's with 180hp, in a Cutlass 442 was nothing to write home about. Much of the performance increase came from the 3.73 gears out back, and even then a 3.42 gear Monte Carlo with a 305 HO could still walk all over it (and they aren't fast either).


The HO 307 was nothing more than a bigger cam, everything else was the same. No special intake, exhaust manifolds, or heads. Same casting numbers for both engines. In fact at least the Cutlass' got cat back dual exhaust which probably means that any 307 HO in a Caddy would be rated even lower than the 170hp (since SAE NET ratings take into accout exhuast). I have not seen any Cadillac with this motor, including Limo's and Hearses.




Now you need to get some High Output badges for the car and put them on the car


We still don't know if the car even has this engine. Check the damper, and the SPID code. Personally, I don't think it does. I have yet to meet a mechanic who knows anything about car specs or facts and figures (I used to work in the Auto service industry at a Chev-Caddy Dealer).

Night Wolf
03-17-06, 10:04 PM
I tried to move the Cadillac script back over to the right side where it belongs but the ammount of crap under it where it is now, was impossible to get off-a there. I just ended up putting it back on from where I took it off from. I was thinking of getting the underline emblem like what was under the "Fleetwood" script on the early 80's ones and putting it under the Cadillac script so it doesn't look so isolated. The "5.0 LITER" plaque looks just fine where it is. There's no way to move the Cadillac script without having to take a sander to the trunk lid.


Goo-Gone.

I have removed the residue from lots of badges with it... and even what was left over form duct tape on a girls Maxima I used to work with.... she had a keg in the trunk, hit the gas, it rolled back and busted the trunk latch so she duct taped the thing down :alchi: Once she got it fixed it looked like crap form the residue of the tape... annoyed me to the point of cleaning it myself... took all day... going out each hour and working with it, but you'd never know its there.

Double sided tape works wonders for sticking the badges back on... may not look pretty up close, but you'd never know...

Jonas McFeely
03-17-06, 10:18 PM
Goo-Gone.

I have removed the residue from lots of badges with it... and even what was left over form duct tape on a girls Maxima I used to work with.... she had a keg in the trunk, hit the gas, it rolled back and busted the trunk latch so she duct taped the thing down :alchi: Once she got it fixed it looked like crap form the residue of the tape... annoyed me to the point of cleaning it myself... took all day... going out each hour and working with it, but you'd never know its there.

Double sided tape works wonders for sticking the badges back on... may not look pretty up close, but you'd never know...

Holy shit dude! The EXACT same thing happened to my friend Andreas Infinti I30,which is the same thing as a Maxima.She had a keg in the trunk and it hit the latch and broke it.She still has her trunk taped down,with duct tape! Spooky huh? I think we should see about a recall with Nissan and their eagerness to break when hit with kegs.

Night Wolf
03-17-06, 11:01 PM
Holy shit dude! The EXACT same thing happened to my friend Andreas Infinti I30,which is the same thing as a Maxima.She had a keg in the trunk and it hit the latch and broke it.She still has her trunk taped down,with duct tape! Spooky huh? I think we should see about a recall with Nissan and their eagerness to break when hit with kegs.

lol..... That's POS Nissan for ya :). Ah, they seems to be ok cars.

I just thought it was funny....

That car... it was a '98 had like 190k miles on it. She knew nothing at all about cars so it had a hard life... she was coming into work one morning at like 5:30AM,going fast in the parking lot, hit ice and took out the Speed Limit 10 sign in our parking lot... I saw the bent license plate and busted up bracket so I was like.... whada hit? and she was like...oh, you noticed? I was like...yeah... so she was like.... did you notice the speed limit sign wasn't there? so we both laughed...

Jonas McFeely
03-17-06, 11:18 PM
Dude we have the exact same birthday too.Things just get weirder and weirder...

I~LUV~Caddys8792
03-18-06, 01:39 AM
There were plenty of cars made from the mid 1970's to the mid 1980's with V8 engines that couldn't spin there tires off the line. These were the days of trying to make engines meet emissions standards and still get reasonable fuel mileage. In fact there were 5.0L V8's that made LESS power than the 307 Olds. Most Ford 302's from the mid 70s to the early 80s (pre EFI) around 130-135 hp. Some 305 Chev's and Pontiac 301s were rated around this power level too. Then there were the small V8's of the early 80's, the 267 Chev, 255 Ford, 265 Pontiac, etc, which were lucky to make 115-120hp.


Yeah, there were some REAL lethargic V8's made from about 1978-84, the early '80s 302 made like 130hp and 230lb/ft, of course, the HT4100, and lastly, the Pontiac 301 was like 110-120hp and like 190 lb/ft, thats probably the worst out there for a gas V8.

But when I think "V8", one of the first things that pops into my head is tire shredding torque, but that kind of power level wasnt really available in the Domestics until about 1990 or so. So from about 1982-90, for the most part, there was just a general lack of powerful V8's, and pretty much everything else was lethargic also.

Night Wolf
03-18-06, 01:51 AM
Dude we have the exact same birthday too.Things just get weirder and weirder...

7-1-87?

DopeStar 156
03-18-06, 03:05 AM
7-1-87?
87?! Damn you kids are young!!! Haha. '85.

Jonas McFeely
03-18-06, 03:06 AM
7-1-87?

Yep,12:10 pm

I~LUV~Caddys8792
03-18-06, 11:33 AM
I'm older than both of you! 4-15-87!

Night Wolf
03-18-06, 12:18 PM
Yep,12:10 pm

12:02AM

I am older mwuahahahahahahahah :).

durrk
03-18-06, 12:55 PM
My 6.0 liter 368 V8 is kinda lethargic, Id like to change that one day....

Night Wolf
03-18-06, 12:58 PM
Swap in a 472 or 500 :).

Or hell even a 425 with some mild work...cam and stuff...

my '79 with the 425 was definitly a quick one....

durrk
03-18-06, 01:00 PM
I like my engine though.... Its nice.

Night Wolf
03-18-06, 04:36 PM
Lots of the big block Cad performance parts will fit the 368.

Bump up comrpession, get a hotter cam in there... I be a '68 472 intake manifold would fit it... so cut the center section out... see about putting 500 exhaust manifolds on it... and a nice free flowing exhaust.... it'll be like a whole new car :).

If you haven't already.... dump the catlyst bead cat. conv.

durrk
03-18-06, 05:13 PM
Well, Knowing that I dont know a thing about engines or fixing cars,
I guess I'll just nod my head and say "hell yeah dude."

Night Wolf
03-18-06, 05:19 PM
lol....

Give me the '80 for a week and some cash... I'll get it going fast for ya :).

I~LUV~Caddys8792
03-18-06, 06:34 PM
my '79 with the 425 was definitly a quick one....

Quick? I dont think so, more like "adequately fast"

N0DIH
03-18-06, 07:09 PM
Don't knock the 301 too bad, that was a 77 301 2bbl that was that lame....
The 301 was a lame 130 hp in 2bbl trim, 150 hp in 4bbl trim, 170 hp in HO 4BBL trim (aka, same as 150 hp with timing boosted and ESC added), and the 301 Turbo at 210 hp / 345 lb/ft torque. It took Chevy till 1984 with the L69 305 to come even CLOSE to the 301 HO's hp rating. And still 5 hp short with 165 hp. It finally took Chevy Tuned Port EFI many years later to even come close to the 301 Turbo's power. And you don't wanna mess with the torque of the turbo.... Trust me, mine ran 14.21@97 mph down the quarter mile... Only timing tweaks and no cat conveter, with a 3.08 gear and 4030# race weight.

And to boot, I drove the 301 2BBL in a 77 GP, with THM400 and 2.73's and got a solid 25 mpg daily driving. More modern cars like out Cadillac's and carb'd V8's couldn't do that mileage, let alone this did it city/highway. Sure it wasn't the most powerful, but ran good, excellent throttle response all things considered. Not something you would want to lay bets on drag racing a 4 cyl Saturn, but still not bad.




Yeah, there were some REAL lethargic V8's made from about 1978-84, the early '80s 302 made like 130hp and 230lb/ft, of course, the HT4100, and lastly, the Pontiac 301 was like 110-120hp and like 190 lb/ft, thats probably the worst out there for a gas V8.

But when I think "V8", one of the first things that pops into my head is tire shredding torque, but that kind of power level wasnt really available in the Domestics until about 1990 or so. So from about 1982-90, for the most part, there was just a general lack of powerful V8's, and pretty much everything else was lethargic also.

I~LUV~Caddys8792
03-18-06, 07:23 PM
So 110hp in 2 bbl setup? Wow didnt know that! I thought 110hp was normal for that V8. I guess ya learn something new every day.

Was the 301 turbo ( better referred to as the turbo 4.9) a pretty good motor? IIRC, it wasn't that quick when compared to the 400 and 403s in the 77-79 Trans Ams, but it was decent for the period.

gdwriter
03-18-06, 08:14 PM
7-1-87?
87?! Damn you kids are young!!! Haha. '85.
I'm older than both of you! 4-15-87!
6-29-66. Got you all beat.

Damn, I'm old.

N0DIH
03-18-06, 10:48 PM
Factory rating was 0-60 in 8.2 and 1/4mile in 16.0.

Not blazing fast, but with a 24 degree MAX timing (10 degree initial, 14 degree mech) tweaked to 16 degrees initial and recurve to faster, pull the cat and go with a straight pipe, a K&N perked it up to nearly 2 full seconds faster in the 1/4 mile. And mine was only running 7.5 psi boost, stock is 10. So I am sure I was tossing away a lot there. I also blocked off the hot water under the carb, and opened up the vacuum bypass line to the turbo wastegate that pulls open the wategate in cruise to speed up boost. 160 Thermostat topped it off. With slicks I am sure I could have got into the 13's. With more boost one night, I did get much closer to low 13's, but lost both head gaskets in the process....

How about really LAME V8? Olds 260 and Pontiac 265 (small bore 301) both with 2bbl's. I forget the actual numbers, but they were like 105 hp. On par with a V6...

I am a bit sick, but I have always wanted to build up the 260. But the parts are so hard to come by it would be cost prohibtive (pistons mainly). And I haven't see a 265 in YEARS. Last one was in the 80's in a 1979 Forumla Firebird.

But a 260 Olds shares everything with all other SB Olds, save pistons. They had the small port heads that went on the 85-up 307's, with smaller chambers (can we say compression boost for your 307??), look for "10" heads. Check OldsFAQ for details. Bolt on a 307 intake for a 4BBL. Make that 260 scream! (laughing yet? :) I know, I have already given this one too much thought.

Dang, have we hijacked this thread or what?? Sorry DopeStar!





So 110hp in 2 bbl setup? Wow didnt know that! I thought 110hp was normal for that V8. I guess ya learn something new every day.

Was the 301 turbo ( better referred to as the turbo 4.9) a pretty good motor? IIRC, it wasn't that quick when compared to the 400 and 403s in the 77-79 Trans Ams, but it was decent for the period.

Night Wolf
03-18-06, 10:55 PM
Quick? I dont think so, more like "adequately fast"

You never drove *my* '79 :).

It was quick.

When people that own much faster cars would ride in it, and I would floor it at 30, it would downshift to 1st, put everyone in the seat and yank the nose of the car up, and everyone in the car just stops saying whatever they were talking about and then after a few seconds say.....wow.... that was cool..... its quick :).

I~LUV~Caddys8792
03-19-06, 02:06 AM
Yeah, I suppose that would feel pretty quick. When you would punch your '79 at 30, did it compare well to your '93 when you hit it at 30? Because THAT, as I'm sure you know, pulls very hard at 30 when you floor it.

DopeStar 156
03-19-06, 02:07 AM
My car just whipped a Corvette's ass!!!! Then later on a Ford GT, and after that a brand new Mustang GT!!!!

Disclaimer: The above mentioned vehicles may have been parked at time of defeat.

davesdeville
03-19-06, 07:39 AM
You never drove *my* '79 :).

It was quick.

When people that own much faster cars would ride in it, and I would floor it at 30, it would downshift to 1st, put everyone in the seat and yank the nose of the car up, and everyone in the car just stops saying whatever they were talking about and then after a few seconds say.....wow.... that was cool..... its quick :).

Didn't you take it to the track once? Mid 17?

I~LUV~Caddys8792
03-19-06, 11:17 AM
I think what he means is that it was quick when you would nail it at 30, but oterwise it was generally not very quick.

Night Wolf
03-19-06, 12:35 PM
Yeah, I suppose that would feel pretty quick. When you would punch your '79 at 30, did it compare well to your '93 when you hit it at 30? Because THAT, as I'm sure you know, pulls very hard at 30 when you floor it.

I actually think the '79 would out-acclerate the Coupe, from 30mph, going up a steep hill.

Back home there was a hill I would always have fun with... the Olds was the slowest of the bunch on the hill... I don't know if it was the size/weight of the '79 or what, but going up hills it atleast seemed faster then the '93.

I~LUV~Caddys8792
03-19-06, 03:33 PM
Wow, maybe I should go out and test drive something with a 425!

FredMaxwell
03-19-06, 03:59 PM
Dude we have the exact same birthday too.Things just get weirder and weirder...



My sister and her husband they're the same age and were both born and married on the same day

Well they were born on the same day and then married on that day 18 years later

FredMaxwell
03-19-06, 04:01 PM
Wow, maybe I should go out and test drive something with a 425!



Ah
Don't get too excited
The 425 is not anything to jump up and down about
I have one with 50,000 miles or so on it.. it is great for night time highway runs wide open and it makes quite a bit of torque but I would not say it is all that quick on acceleration and with the godforsaken Q-Jet it uses gas like a chinese pumping station

FredMaxwell
03-19-06, 04:04 PM
You never drove *my* '79 :).

It was quick.

When people that own much faster cars would ride in it, and I would floor it at 30, it would downshift to 1st, put everyone in the seat and yank the nose of the car up, and everyone in the car just stops saying whatever they were talking about and then after a few seconds say.....wow.... that was cool..... its quick :).



Wow
Mine doesn't do that at all

FredMaxwell
03-19-06, 04:06 PM
My car just whipped a Corvette's ass!!!! Then later on a Ford GT, and after that a brand new Mustang GT!!!!

Disclaimer: The above mentioned vehicles may have been parked at time of defeat.


I was going to ask if you were sure they were racing with you
And then I read the disclaimer :)

Seems like most d*pe guys have plenty of cash, if I were you I'd jam a big huge engine in that automobile of yours. And put in an exhaust cutout.


Or even a 350 you can build those way up

Destroyer
03-19-06, 04:25 PM
Ah
Don't get too excited
The 425 is not anything to jump up and down about
I have one with 50,000 miles or so on it.. it is great for night time highway runs wide open and it makes quite a bit of torque but I would not say it is all that quick on acceleration and with the godforsaken Q-Jet it uses gas like a chinese pumping station
Back in '89 or '90 I swapped a 425 out of a '77 (I think) Coupe DeVille and stuck in an '80 Eldorado that was given to me cause it had a blown 4-6-8. The Coupe had under 50k miles on it but was rear ended, it was totaled so I picked that one up for cheap as well. Anyway I was expecting the Eldorado to be a screamer, I was really dissapointed in the performance but man it ran smooth. It was short lived anyway, driving home from Queens, I was on the L.I.expressway and the motor started sounding like a cement mixer. I pulled over to take a look and the oil filter rubbed against the crossmember and put a big hole in it (motor was not designed to be in FWD car). I knew the motor was toast so instead of turning it off I decided to drive the rest of the way home, it made it right up to my front door about 30 miles away, stopped running and never started again. Didn't loose big money but man it took some work and that sucked.

I~LUV~Caddys8792
03-19-06, 04:33 PM
Hmmm, I would think a 425 in a 3700lb '80 Eldorado would be fairly quick.

Night Wolf
03-19-06, 07:08 PM
Wow, maybe I should go out and test drive something with a 425!

my 425 wasn't a typical 425 by the time I was done with it :).

sad part is... what was "done to it" was really simple basic stuff..... didn't live long enough for the big plans.....

Night Wolf
03-19-06, 07:20 PM
Ah
Don't get too excited
The 425 is not anything to jump up and down about
I have one with 50,000 miles or so on it.. it is great for night time highway runs wide open and it makes quite a bit of torque but I would not say it is all that quick on acceleration and with the godforsaken Q-Jet it uses gas like a chinese pumping station

Ahh... you are another Q-jet hater? :( I am really fond of the Q-jet... easy to tune, very reliable, and it actually manages the fuel instead of just dumping it in like a Holly....

gas mileage I really coudln't complain about... I drive fast and with a heavy foot....

I'd still manage a solid 12mpg town and 16mpg highway.... with a lighter foot, up to 14mpg town and a little slower on the highway would be almost 18mpg....

for a 7.0L big block V8, carburated, 3spd auto with no overdrive, pushing about 5,000lbs with aeroddynamics that shawdow a brick.... I had no complaint at all on the mileage that car got. When you consider modern SUV's and pickups with much smaller engines, overdrive, better aerodyanmics, and in some cases, lighter.... are getting the same, or worse mileage.... its really not hard to see that a 27 year old daily driver was getting decent gas mileage.

If your Q-jet is original, then the damn thing is 27 years old and if you have problems with it, it isn't the carbs fault.

We rebuilt my carb, then did a little performance tuning... besides the choke not being set right (never got around to fixing it) it ran great.... I don't know how much of a difference the carb alone made, as I put it on the same time the modified '68 472 intake manifold went in, EGR came out and also the 1" carb spacer...... THAT really boosted power.

Full tune up, Edelbrock 14" open element air intake, drain the beads from the cat, the modified '68 472 intake manifold, rebuilt carb with some performance tweaks, carb spacer.... and a couple other small things are what really boosted the performance. That was with the 2.28 gears.... the rear sway bar really helped to, tho that wasn't really for power.... I was going to put a shift kit in the trans, some nice open exhaust system and a mild cam in the 425 while waiting for the swap....

when I first got it, it was a dog... by the time i was done with it it would lay rubber from a stop, go sideways at will and throw you in the seat.

The 425 isn't nearly as bad as it is made out to be... most are origanal, nearly 30 years old, including the carb which seen better days, and the origanal beaded cat. conv which is totally plugged up by now (before I drained mine there was a nasty rotten egg smell from the ehxuast) he 3 things the 425 needs help on is the intake, cam and exhaust... I had the intake well taken care of and the exhaust was starting to...... but that alone really helped it out with performance.

Night Wolf
03-19-06, 07:22 PM
Back in '89 or '90 I swapped a 425 out of a '77 (I think) Coupe DeVille and stuck in an '80 Eldorado that was given to me cause it had a blown 4-6-8. The Coupe had under 50k miles on it but was rear ended, it was totaled so I picked that one up for cheap as well. Anyway I was expecting the Eldorado to be a screamer, I was really dissapointed in the performance but man it ran smooth. It was short lived anyway, driving home from Queens, I was on the L.I.expressway and the motor started sounding like a cement mixer. I pulled over to take a look and the oil filter rubbed against the crossmember and put a big hole in it (motor was not designed to be in FWD car). I knew the motor was toast so instead of turning it off I decided to drive the rest of the way home, it made it right up to my front door about 30 miles away, stopped running and never started again. Didn't loose big money but man it took some work and that sucked.

:( How could you do that? :(

DopeStar 156
03-19-06, 07:49 PM
I got pulled over for speeding today! That's NEVER HAPPENED BEFORE!!! Hahaha. My car is at her mechanical peak now. No ticket though, the cop really liked my car and let me go. I'm pretty sure he pulled me over just to check it out! hahaha!

Destroyer
03-19-06, 08:03 PM
Hmmm, I would think a 425 in a 3700lb '80 Eldorado would be fairly quick.Dont get me wrong it wasn't bad, I was just expecting more. At the time I was 18 years old and my daily car was a '78 Monte Carlo w/a '70 LT1 with cam, exhaust, th350, the mag wheels and so on. It would smoke the Mustang GT's and Iroc's. Had a bit of a prob with Grand Nationals off the line but you see what I'm saying. As a young guy I figured a big block in the Eldorado would do some damage. My freind had a '70 Caddy w/500 and it was very powerful. For some reason I thought the 425 would have similar power but I was wrong and not well versed on Cadillac motors hence the dissapointment. Anyway, if I had that Eldorado now I would probably think its performance is good. Hard to recollect, I just remember what I thought at the time.

Destroyer
03-19-06, 08:05 PM
:( How could you do that? :(
I dont know what to tell ya. Young and stupid come to mind. Looking back on it I probably could have saved that motor had I just turned it off when it started making noise.

FredMaxwell
03-19-06, 08:08 PM
Mine has 50,000 miles on it and the q-jet was rebuilt..
I was told that "doing things to it" makes the 425 die a death

I~LUV~Caddys8792
03-19-06, 08:28 PM
my 425 wasn't a typical 425 by the time I was done with it :).

sad part is... what was "done to it" was really simple basic stuff..... didn't live long enough for the big plans.....

For shits sake, I'm gonna say that the 403 powered '78 Toronado was surprisingly quick (all things considered) and that a motor that makes similar power in a car 500 lbs lighter will be pretty powerful, I would certainly think it would be faster than a 17.5 in the quarter.

DopeStar 156
03-19-06, 08:42 PM
The Eldorado in 1979 had what engine in it?

FredMaxwell
03-19-06, 09:58 PM
The Eldorado in 1979 had what engine in it?


I do believe every Cadillac save for the seville had a 425 in 79

I might be wrong but I think that is it

DopeStar 156
03-19-06, 11:03 PM
If so then there's your 425 Eldorado. That body from the early 80's debuted as a 1979 model.

creeker
03-19-06, 11:03 PM
in 1979 the seville,eldorado,deville and brougham all had the 5.7 (350) engine.
an optional 425 was offered for deville, brougham and fleetwood.there was also a diesel avail. as option.

FredMaxwell
03-19-06, 11:06 PM
in 1979 the seville,eldorado,deville and brougham all had the 5.7 (350) engine.
an optional 425 was offered for deville, brougham and fleetwood.there was also a diesel avail. as option.


Wow
I was completely wrong
Are you sure? :mad:

I~LUV~Caddys8792
03-19-06, 11:11 PM
Yup, the last time the 425 was used in the Eldorado, was in the "big body" 1978's.

When they redesigned it for '79, they made the Olds 350 standard, and IIRC in 1980, the 368 was standard with the 350 optional.

creeker
03-19-06, 11:12 PM
correction to my last posting,I reread my stats book,it shows for 1979 seville and eldorado have the 5.7.
deville , brougham and fleetwood have olds.425 @180 hp.

DopeStar 156
03-19-06, 11:21 PM
correction to my last posting,I reread my stats book,it shows for 1979 seville and eldorado have the 5.7.
deville , brougham and fleetwood have olds.425 @180 hp.
That sounds more accurate....

Night Wolf
03-19-06, 11:50 PM
I got pulled over for speeding today! That's NEVER HAPPENED BEFORE!!! Hahaha. My car is at her mechanical peak now. No ticket though, the cop really liked my car and let me go. I'm pretty sure he pulled me over just to check it out! hahaha!

See, now that you found 40hp.... its magically faster!

Night Wolf
03-19-06, 11:52 PM
I got pulled over for speeding today! That's NEVER HAPPENED BEFORE!!! Hahaha. My car is at her mechanical peak now. No ticket though, the cop really liked my car and let me go. I'm pretty sure he pulled me over just to check it out! hahaha!

You coulda been like.... I cast level 9 good cop spell on you....wooooosh.... This heres the rubber ducky keep the beer in your glass and the bears off your tail, we gone.

Night Wolf
03-19-06, 11:56 PM
Mine has 50,000 miles on it and the q-jet was rebuilt..
I was told that "doing things to it" makes the 425 die a death

die a death?

You can do whatever you'd like to a 425.... most any 472/500 stuff will fit it... its the same engine.

What is nice tho, the 425 never had an AIR pump at all... few other extra goodies too.

The 425 is a great engine... its just outshined by the 472/500 becuase its not a .....well.... 500. Why get a 425 is you can have a 500, ya know? Its very good in its own right and could be built up to be insane to a very resonable price.

Keep in mind, its already got more displacement then nearly any small block... more then a Pontiac 400... just as much as a classic Hemi.... and not too far off from a 454... really, it has so much potential, its just everyone wants the 472/500.

Night Wolf
03-19-06, 11:58 PM
The Eldorado in 1979 had what engine in it?

fuel injected 350

Night Wolf
03-20-06, 12:01 AM
in 1979 the seville,eldorado,deville and brougham all had the 5.7 (350) engine.
an optional 425 was offered for deville, brougham and fleetwood.there was also a diesel avail. as option.

For the RWD DeVille/Fleetwood, the 425 4bbl was standard. The fuel injected 425 was optional, and the Olds 350 diesel was optional.

You got the base/optional engines reversed.

* 425 is a Cadillac engine... not Olds.

creeker
03-20-06, 12:43 AM
My book definetly shows seville and eldorado as having the 350. in 1979.
it also shows for 1979 deville, brougham and fleetwood as having a 425,oldsmobile built.vin code B.base V8 cast iron block and head,displacement 425 cu. in.(7.0 liter)
bore and stroke4.082 X4.06 in.
compression ratio 8.2.1
180 hp @4000 rpm
torque 320 lb.-ft @ 2400 rpm
vin code T.

I also looked up engine rebuilder shop and they show a 425 for olds. and also a 425 for cadillac. I always thought a 425 was caddy too?.

Night Wolf
03-20-06, 01:02 AM
IIRC Olds DID make a 425....

but not THE 425 used in the '79 DeVille.

The only Oldsmobile engines ever used in a Cadillac were the 350 diesel, and the 307.

Everything you listed about that 425 is correct... that is the Cadillac 425... part of the big block faimly... it, and its siblings make up the 500/472/425/368 group.

Bro-Ham
03-20-06, 04:30 AM
in 1979 the seville,eldorado,deville and brougham all had the 5.7 (350) engine.
an optional 425 was offered for deville, brougham and fleetwood.there was also a diesel avail. as option.

Hello,

The above information from creeker regarding 1979 Cadillac engines is incorrect.

In 1979, the following engines were available in Cadillacs:

Seville and Eldorado - - standard 5.7 (350) gas FI V8, optional 5.7 (350) diesel V8.

deVille and Fleetwood Brougham - - standard 7.0 (425) gas 4 barrel carb V8, optional 7.0 (425) gas FI V8.

Limousines - - standard 7.0 (425) gas 4 barrel carb.

I scanned an information sheet entitled "ENGINES USED IN 1979 CADILLACS" that I hope will be informative.

D

Bro-Ham
03-20-06, 04:34 AM
Hi,

Sorry, the attachment came out very small. Anyway, it shows the information above plus lists fuel economy estimates.

The diesel may have been added to deVille and Fleetwood sometime mid year since I recall having an ad showing a 1979 diesel deVille/Fleetwood Brougham.

Dave

Bro-Ham
03-20-06, 04:44 AM
Hi,

Night Wolf is correct, the 425 used in Cadillacs was indeed made by Cadillac.

The diesel was made by Oldsmobile Division.

On the sheet I scanned and attached above, it lists the following interesting tidbit regarding the 350 gas FI V8 in the 1979 Eldorado/Seville: "Cadillac purchases a short block engine assembly and cylinder head from Oldsmobile for the 350 cubic inch Electronic Fuel Injected (EFI) V-8 engine. The Electronic Fuel Injection and other components are final assembled and tested on the Cadillac engine assembly line in Detroit."

Order codes/engine ID codes:

5.7 EFI gas V8: L49/B
5.7 diesel V8: LF9/N
7.0 4-barrel gas V8: L33/S
7.0 EFI gas V8: L35/T

Good night!

Dave

davesdeville
03-20-06, 06:15 AM
in 1979 the seville,eldorado,deville and brougham all had the 5.7 (350) engine.
an optional 425 was offered for deville, brougham and fleetwood.there was also a diesel avail. as option.

The standard engine in 79 Devilles and Fleetwoods was the 425.

davesdeville
03-20-06, 06:17 AM
Yes the diesel became optional on 79 Deville and Fleetwood midyear.

Destroyer
03-20-06, 09:12 AM
My '80 Eldorado had the 4-6-8 motor. Wasn't that the 368 cubic inch?. I dont remember, never drove it with the original motor.

Bro-Ham
03-20-06, 11:12 AM
My '80 Eldorado had the 4-6-8 motor. Wasn't that the 368 cubic inch?. I dont remember, never drove it with the original motor.

Hi,

The 6.0 (368) V8 with the V8-6-4 feature was first available in 1981. In 1980 the 368 with fuel injection was standard on the Eldorado but did not have the V8-6-4 until 1981.

D

creeker
03-20-06, 01:18 PM
Wow, this subject should win some sort of prize ,it just goes on forever,well I reread my book ,yes the 425 is cadillac, the paragraoph I was reading from does not have a definate cut off between models and engines,I'm going to stick my neck out again and say that the 5.7 for 1979 was oldsmobile built.
I checked on olds. for that year and they show a 5.7.the olds. motor for
caddy is a VIN code B base V8, fuel injected.I'm not trying to confuse the issue farther, but there is definetly a olds. motor shown for that year, for the seville and eldorado.

Bro-Ham
03-20-06, 01:37 PM
Hi Creek,

Read post #94 above. 1979 Seville/Eldorado 5.7 EFI engine block and head are from Olds but assembled by Cad with Cad EFI equipment.

D

Destroyer
03-20-06, 05:52 PM
Hi,

The 6.0 (368) V8 with the V8-6-4 feature was first available in 1981. In 1980 the 368 with fuel injection was standard on the Eldorado but did not have the V8-6-4 until 1981.

D
Definately had the V8-6-4 so it may have been an '81 model. It was a long time ago but I could have sworn it was an '80. Oh well.

I~LUV~Caddys8792
03-20-06, 05:58 PM
The easiest way to tell an 80 from an '81 for me, is to look at the grille. If it has a really small eggcrate type, its an '81, the 80 is the same style, but the squares are bigger.

CoupeDevilleRob
03-20-06, 06:27 PM
You can easily tell a standard 368 (1980) from the 8-6-4 368 (1981) by the valve covers. The 8-6-4 equipped 368s had these weird looking, humped valve covers to clear all the cylinder deactivating crap. The standard 368 had regular valve covers. I'm probably not explaining this too well but if you ever see a V 8-6-4 you'll know what I mean.

DopeStar 156
03-24-06, 10:20 PM
I checked and it's there!!!! The 9 is in the VIN!! I know for sure that it's there now, no second guessing this one, this is the 180 HP version of the 307.

Night Wolf
03-25-06, 12:45 AM
Heh....

makes me curious to know which 307 my mothers Brougham may happen to have.... its a doggie... but I dunno, the 2 times I drove it shortly after the new carb and TV cable on the trans... it surprised me.... because before that it was a total dog....

GenoTheLowrider
03-26-06, 10:17 PM
So are u guys saying all the Lacs with the tow package came with this "special engine", cuz my '89 has the tow package. The hitch and evrything.....

I~LUV~Caddys8792
03-26-06, 11:36 PM
I checked and it's there!!!! The 9 is in the VIN!! I know for sure that it's there now, no second guessing this one, this is the 180 HP version of the 307.

So its almost like you have the TBI 5.7 in there, but with 60 less lb/ft.

Night Wolf
03-27-06, 11:54 AM
So are u guys saying all the Lacs with the tow package came with this "special engine", cuz my '89 has the tow package. The hitch and evrything.....

hitch alone dosn't mean it has a tow package... someone could have added that. If it has a factory tow package... then thats nice, you have upgraded brakes, cooling etc...

Check the VIN, that appears to be the only way to know for sure.

N0DIH
03-27-06, 01:04 PM
The Cad 425 is close kin to the 390/429/472/500, and the 425 made way to the 368.

The Olds 425 died in 1967 and made way for the 455 (they stroked the 425 to make the 455, and the 425 is a bored 400 (late 400, there was 2), which essentially is an early 400 stroke in the late 400 block, follow me here??)

And people think mixing and matching SB Chevies is fun!


IIRC Olds DID make a 425....

but not THE 425 used in the '79 DeVille.

The only Oldsmobile engines ever used in a Cadillac were the 350 diesel, and the 307.

Everything you listed about that 425 is correct... that is the Cadillac 425... part of the big block faimly... it, and its siblings make up the 500/472/425/368 group.

Night Wolf
03-27-06, 04:37 PM
The Cad 425 is close kin to the 390/429/472/500, and the 425 made way to the 368.

The Olds 425 died in 1967 and made way for the 455 (they stroked the 425 to make the 455, and the 425 is a bored 400 (late 400, there was 2), which essentially is an early 400 stroke in the late 400 block, follow me here??)

And people think mixing and matching SB Chevies is fun!

The 331/365/390/429 family has NO relation to the 472/500/425/368...... totally seperate....

N0DIH
03-30-06, 06:45 PM
I had always though the 390 was the grandpa to the last big Cad V8's. Learn something everyday!




The 331/365/390/429 family has NO relation to the 472/500/425/368...... totally seperate....