: Titanium Ceramic Coated Brake Rotors



VELOSE
03-08-06, 02:32 AM
Not too long ago I was watching Speed Channel. They were covering the SEMA show. They interviewed this guy from www.reddevilbrakes.com (http://www.reddevilbrakes.com). I almost jumped out of my seat when they showed his booth. The table was covered by a ton of beautiful calipers and two-piece floating rotors.

I've been looking to replace those heavy 14" rotors we have for some lightweight 2 piece versions because, I might have slightly warped my stock ones at the last track event. Anyhow, I couldn't find any. I did find this company that offers them and also a solid titanium replacement. Now I want to get your thoughts and input on this upgrade/mod. It's damn pricey but I likey. ;)
http://www.reddevilbrakes.com/page/page/1001014.htm

http://www.reddevilbrakes.com/i//Z51_frt_n_rear_300_1_high.jpg

LV_V
03-08-06, 04:26 AM
Is there any way to get the stock one's replaced with these covered partly under warranty? I have one rotor replaced under warranty because it warped, and now when I hit the brakes at speed the entire car (especially the steering wheel) shakes.

These titanium rotors look SICK.

Texan V
03-08-06, 05:09 AM
A while back this place had a two-piece rotor available for the V. I want to say that they were around 4lbs lighter than the stock rotors if my memory serves me.

http://kvrperformance.com/store/showcase.php

I don't see it on the website now so I sent them an email to see if they still had anything for us. There was a guy here a while back, "Silver Baron" I think, that was running their rotors.

atdeneve
03-08-06, 08:08 AM
LV V, your warped rotors were replaced under warranty? At what mileage did they get replaced?

thefly
03-08-06, 10:47 AM
Is there any way to get the stock one's replaced with these covered partly under warranty? I have one rotor replaced under warranty because it warped, and now when I hit the brakes at speed the entire car (especially the steering wheel) shakes.

These titanium rotors look SICK.

as long as their aren't any cracks, would turning them down not relieve this? i have had the shaky wheel with light braking before and turning down fixed (even happening on my 06 sometimes under light braking 2500 miles on it).

Florian
03-08-06, 11:09 AM
2500 bux for all 4 corners is a bit pricey....Id love to do it, but I have bigger fish to fry for that kind of dough.
Excellent find!!!!

F

Texan V
03-08-06, 12:00 PM
If anyone cares...got a reply back from KVR on the two piece rotors for the V.

From Terry @ KVR:

We do stiil offer CTSV, but they must be purchased through

Cadillac motorsports

They can be contacted @

sales@cadillacmotorsports.com


FWIW - I didn't mean for this to appear as a thread jack, just thought that if someone was seriously shopping for two piece rotors, they might want to shop more than one source.

Personally, I agree with Florian. A little too steep for rotors. I'd rather get a good set of heads, maybe even a cam for the dough.

kd7895
03-08-06, 12:40 PM
The price for the Red Devil rotors would be over $4000...their listed price is per rotor. Don't know about KVR's, but I am working on having some 2 piece rotors made and will keep everyone up to date.

Mickey

ChicagoCTS32
03-08-06, 12:50 PM
Titanium does not have near the heat dispersing quality that a traditional rotor does. If I can find it, I'll post the link to an article I read about a track event between several tuned up race cars by several different magazines (MotorTrend, Car & Driver, TunerSport, etc...). One company used titanium rotors to save weight, but the stopping distance from 100 - 0 was insanely long. They made them change them out for non-Ti rotors because it was dangerous.

VELOSE
03-08-06, 02:07 PM
I'm glad everyone is sharing their input. I also like the fact that we are sharing info. regarding other companies offering 2 piece rotors. Thread jack all you want with other vendors who offer them. I'm all in for variety.

I hope that $1400 is not per rotor. I'm pretty sure they are $1400 for fronts and $1300 for rears, and I'm referring to the two piece version.

Chicago, find us that link. I'd like to read up on that. ;)

kd7895
03-08-06, 03:29 PM
$1395 per front, $1195 per rear according to the company. 15" option requires the purchase of their calipers as well for about $500 each if I remember correctly. (I should since it was less than a week ago that I spoke with them, but I am getting absent minded with age)

Mickey

Dreamin
03-08-06, 06:01 PM
Veloce... are you sure your rotors are warped? Other issues can cause brake shudder and steering wheel vibration.
http://www.stoptech.com/tech_info/wp_warped_brakedisk.shtml

I'm pretty damn hard on my brakes... and use pretty nasty race pads on track (PFC '01)... and no brake issues what so ever (no warping, no spider cracks, nothing).

In any case... are these rotors made of Titanium? or is the *coating* Titanium? Way to expensive for the benefit you'll from these rotors... MHO.

ChicagoCTS32
03-08-06, 06:06 PM
Chicago, find us that link. I'd like to read up on that. ;)

I've been trying to find it for about 3 hours... no luck. I've read through all my back issues of C&D, so it must be in something I looked at while at the book store.

It really wasn't much of an article about the brakes. It just pointed out that with this one particular car in the comparison, the Ti brakes were not good. All the cars were the same, but upgraded by pro tuning shops (skunk2, etc) so they were vastly different from each other. The thing that stuck out in my mind was that the 100-0 (or it might have been 150-0) stopping distance exceeded 1/4 of a mile. Nearly double what the other cars were doing. They had them chang the rotors out of safety concerns, and the tuning shop agreed that they were worried about the same thing.

I'll try to find that article tonight in my down time...

atdeneve
03-09-06, 05:47 AM
What is turning down of the rotors mean? I also heard of some talking about putting the rotors on a lathe; what exactly is that? All of this is quite informative/interesting as I also thought that I had to replace my rotors.

Texan V
03-09-06, 12:31 PM
Heard back from Cadillac Motorsports.

Long story short. They bought the intellectual rights of the KVR two-piece rotors and improved them. Cost for all 4 runs about $2800. They are straight-up racing equipment and probably overkill for the typical V owner. That said, for the long technical version see the pasted email below...


Hi Shawn:

Terry from KVR is correct. Our company acquired all of the intellectual property as well as the exclusive distributing rights for the 2 piece rotor that was initially designed by KVR for the Cadillac CTSV as well as any other GM platforms. Since that acquisition; we have since improved upon the engineering of the initial design and it is protected by a U.S. utility/design patent. Such improvements are that the rotors are no longer made from gravity cast iron, but instead are made of forged alloy steel, ceramic or titanium. The two piece rotor hats are no longer CNC machined individually, but are forged billet aluminum and are attached to each rotor disc with aerospace titanium hardware.

The rotor portion is no longer zinc electroplated, but instead is treated in a cadmium bath that takes 90 minutes per rotor, rather than 5 minutes for electroplating. In addition; the rotors are deep cryogenically treated to minus 300 degrees and then heat tempered to plus 500 degrees for stress relief. This process alone ads 60 hours of processing time to the rotor set.

The MSRP cost for a complete (4 wheel) 2 piece rotor set is $2795.00 plus UPS ground shipping and insurance. These rotors Shawn are a very high-end "race type" performance rotor and are not typically marketed to the average "street driver". They are of course fine for street use; but are not constructed, engineered or priced from a materials standpoint for someone who is simply looking for a "cross drilled rotor".

These rotors are more typical of what might be found on the Corvette SCCA World Challenge Cup Series, Sebring or Lemans 24 hour circuit and are pretty much typical equipment found on the Porsche GTR series with a base price of $500,000 plus.

So while $2795 may seem like allot of money for 4 rotors; these same 4 rotors in investment grade titanium that we build for GM for the LeMans Series CTSV-R race cars carry a price of $18,000 for 4 rotors.

The forged alloy steel rotors at $2795 are fully guaranteed against any type of cracking or warping. I would highly suggest stainless steel brake lines if you have any interest in the rotor product. Your CTSV 4 piston calipers will work absolutely fine for enthusiastic street driving and limited track applications; however I would suggest an upgrade to a 6 piston front caliper for more dedicated track applications and based upon your driving habits; we have a number of brake pads that retail anywhere from $90 a set to $1000 a set; depending upon your application as well.

Remember that these rotors and their associated components are built on a custom order basis and are absolutely the finest braking product available in the industry. They are far superior in their engineering and there are absolutely no disappointments with this product.

We are a traditional brick and mortar motorsport facility located in Maryland. Our website should be "live for launch" by the end of this month and many of these questions are addressed on the website. We currently build braking systems for 3 NASCAR teams as well as countless individuals worldwide.

Please feel free to email any questions that you might have. I will caution you that the price of forged alloy steel will be taking a 20% market price increase in the next 30 days or so. We buy this commodity under a "futures contract" and at this time are well stocked for current orders. We will however be faced with a price increase once this new market pricing on alloy steel and aluminum trickles down which is forthcoming.

Thank you again for considering Cadillac MotorSports, Ltd and please feel confident that we are here to always exceed your expectations in anything that we do. We are not here to simply sell you a set of rotors, but more so to establish a client relationship where you can feel comfortable at any time having us available for any performance or technical questions that you might have.

I would encourage you to choose wisely. Braking systems in the United States are an "unregulated industry". We are members of BIRA which is an international regulatory agency that establishes metallurgy standards that are absent in the United States. We consider what we do to be one of the most important things in the world when you trust your safety into our hands.


best regards-

Pietro J. Raimondi, Jr.
Cadillac MotorSports, Ltd.
sales@cadillacmotorsports.com

CTS-VPaco
03-09-06, 05:19 PM
Bad ass. I wonder what wholesale would be on these? I have a friend with a tuner shop who would swing me a discount if at all possible. :drool:

pietroraimondi
03-09-06, 06:32 PM
Texan V aka: Shawn

When you send an email to inquire about information and then make an assumption that they are "overkill" for the average V owner, I can only assume that you completely misunderstood the different rotor cheek materials that we offer.

We offer rotors that are constructed on forged alloy steel which is ideal for the average CTSV owner.

We also offer rotor cheeks that are constructed of ceramic and titanium which are dedicated for "race type" applications and carry a price of $18,000 plus. This is not something that anyone would install on any CTSV and would certainly be overkill.


Our two piece rotors are constucted of one of three types of rotor cheek material. The first is forged alloy steel. These units are again "ideal" for the typical CTSV owner who is looking for a 2 piece rotor that provides a number of substantial benefits over a one piece gravity poured cast iron rotor.

Our race series rotor cheeks are constructed of either ceramic or titanium and we are currently experimenting with some other proprietary materials that are race circuit dedicated.

Certainly; any type of ceramic or titanium rotor cheek would be "overkill" for a $50,000 CTSV vehicle. A braking system constucted of solid ceramic or titanium with the appropriate radial mounted caliper hardware is somewhere in the $25,000 plus range at a starting point! Some systems are actually priced more than the entire CTSV.

Your driving a $50,000 car brother; not a $500,000 vehicle. Why do you think you got one piece gravity poured cast iron rotors and lug mounted calipers from Brembo and not a $8000 Brembo Grand Turisimo big brake kit?? That should not be a hard one to figure out. My god; you have to drop a 100K with Porsche just to get the Brembo $8000 Grand Turisimo 2 piece big brake kit. You don't think for a second GM is installing $8000 2 piece Brembo brake kits on $50,000 CTS's do you??

This is the exact reason why the Brembo Grand Turisimo kit is not installed by Cadillac on your $50,000 car. That 4 wheel Brembo kit with calipers retails for more than $7500 to $8000.

That territory is reserved for a higher end Porsche (minimum of a $100k MSRP) and a much larger wallet than the typical CTSV buyer.

What we offer for $2795.00 is four two piece rotors that are constructed of forged alloy steel. They are cryotreated and heat tempered BEFORE they are cross drilled or gas slotted. They are attached to a solid forged billet aluminum hat with aerospace grade titanium hardware and are far superior in their cooling property design than the Brembo Grand Turisimo rotor disc.

The Brembo Grand Turisimo rotor cheek is not cryo-treated or heat tempered and it is electroplated with zinc; where our rotor cheeks are immersion plated in either nickel or cadmium. You could not even begin to buy the raw materials at what we charge which is $700 per rotor.

GM gave you the Brembo Grand Turisimo brake calipers; however they gave you a 3'rd rate 14" frying pan for a brake rotor. By adding these rotors and the stainless steel brake lines; you'll save approximately 8 pounds at each wheel of unsprung weight and have a rotor that is far superior to anything that is available anywhere in terms of material, engineering and quality of construction.

Texan V
03-09-06, 06:47 PM
Well excuuuuse me!

All I tried to do was give folks here a look at your stuff. (Your welcome). You yourself stated that they were a...

"very high-end "race type" performance rotor and are not typically marketed to the average "street driver".

I summed that up to be overkill for most. Realistically, how many of us here are tracking our cars.

I know what I'm driving "brother"...you trying to dog me out just makes you look like a jack ass in my opinion.

Best of luck selling your race brakes...

Dreamin
03-09-06, 06:57 PM
Man am i confused.

So Cadillac Motorsports now sells the 2 piece KVR rotors (w/improvements), made from alloy steal and run $2795. These are not the Titanium rotors, right?

Do we know any more about the Titanium rotors? What makes them so great? And they run ~$5K (for 4)?


Pietro:
When you state "The forged alloy steel rotors at $2795 are fully guaranteed against any type of cracking or warping"... is this a lifetime guarantee against cracking or warping

And is that picture your show a picture of your $2795 rotors? Or the Brembo rotors?

Dreamin
03-09-06, 07:26 PM
We also offer rotor cheeks that are constructed of ceramic and titanium which are dedicated for "race type" applications and carry a price of $18,000 plus. This is not something that anyone would install on any CTSV and would certainly be overkill.

You shouldn't make assumptions about how much money people are willing to dump on their cars ;). I happen to ran that "retails for more than $7500 to $8000" Brembo Grand Turisimo kit on my cheap $30K Lightning pick-up...

http://www.geocities.com/zeemr@sbcglobal.net/brem1.JPG

http://www.geocities.com/zeemr@sbcglobal.net/brem2.jpg

http://www.geocities.com/zeemr@sbcglobal.net/brem3.jpg

SoCadillac
03-09-06, 10:20 PM
Well excuuuuse me!I've learned that Pete answers everything this way, so I've also learned not to get offended as it's just Pete's way. I guess one can safely say that Pete is into what he's doing and what he sells. :yup:

pietroraimondi
03-12-06, 02:18 PM
Hi Reed:

Thanks for letting these guy's know that I am not such a "terrible person" after all!

You know that we are very passionate about what we do at Cadillac MotorSports and are extremely committed to developing proprietary products for the Cadillac platform that many aftermarket manufactures to this very day continue to ignore.

Some of the items that we are particularly passionate about are safety items that can potentially jeopardize a vehicle owners personal safety, the safety of others and perhaps have very serious or fatal consequences if done in an incorrect manner.

And that of course is a properly engineered braking system and its associated chassis and suspension geometry that has been altered beyond the parameters of what was engineered in it's initial OEM design.

It really is a terrible shame that the average vehicle owner has really nothing of substantive value in order to make an informed decision when making a product purchase of this nature where safety is of paramount importance.

It's one thing to buy a cheaply made die-cast shift knob and have it fail, but if I have to jump out of a perfectly good airplane at 10,000 feet.......let's just say that I want the very best damn parachute that money can buy!

That's how we feel about braking systems and sometimes that is very difficult topic to communicate and educate someone about in a very limited forum.

Our webpage of some very unique custom performance products for the Cadillac should be ready for launch within 30 days and I believe that we'll be able to offer some services in a true "one stop shopping" environment.

Many have expressed interest in having their Brembo CTSV Calipers "colored". One such service that we will offer is the ability to provide a client with a set of "Brembo house calipers" while theres are here for service.

While ther Brembo Calipers are in house for service; we'll be able to completely disassemble there own calipers, media blast and strip the old gray paint finish and then either powder coat, chrome plate or anodize the outer cases. Because calipers are also a wear item; we'll be able to rebuild the V owners existing calipers with new silicone o-rings and rubber boots as well as replace any bleeder valves, outer u-tubes or gouged or damaged pistons etc if necessary.

Continued success Reed with Cadillacfaq.com and all of the informative information that it continues to provide the Cadillac community.

It is because of your efforts that many of us have a factual database of information that has made each of our individual ownership experience's that much more of a positive experience.

best regards:
Pete Raimondi
Cadillac MotorSports, Ltd.