: Should a nations past or present policy guide you car buying?



HotRodSaint
03-04-06, 04:15 PM
In another thread someone called the VW a 'hitlermobile' or 'nazimobile'.

Others here have said that they would never buy a Japanese car because of Pearl Harbor. And others have said the same about Mercedes and BMW because of the Nazi's.

So what about Ford? Rumor has it that he was a Nazi supporter leading into the war, and possibly even during the war. Isn't that a greater sin? Shouldn't all Ford owned marques be off your buying list?

Dodge is owned by DaimlerChysler, the same firm that built the Nazi war machine.

And what about Rolls Royce?? Their planes and their airplane engines helped the Allies defeat the Axis. But the Axis builder of airplanes now manufactures Rolls Royce cars?

What if you are an anti-war pacifist? Cadillac built tanks during WWII. Every aspect of the American auto industry was engaged in military production. Does that bother you?

On the opposite side of the equation, why should we want to punish Honda whose firm was founded after the war?

I'm sure that every car company has some dark secret lurking in the closet. So the question is, why are some sins forgivable and others not??

Playdrv4me
03-04-06, 04:29 PM
It does not guide mine.

Keep this civil guys.

Adam
03-04-06, 04:38 PM
oh for godsake its just a damned nickname! it is not directed toward any nationality or to offend anyone or anyone that drives one. i am not going to apologize for it. if you take offense because of hitlermobile thats your own problem. i dont mean it as an insult and im not trying to insult anyone, but people like to go around and stir shit up because its "controversial". no i dont like vw, never have, not because it was because of hitler but because i have never liked the looks of any of their cars. i like Mercede's Benz, hell i love MBs. wait though, hitler drove an MB so what? no, just because of their past, no it should not. my fiance drives a vw for crying out loud, who cares? she doesnt get mad when i call it a hitlermobile, its joking around.

SpeedyArizona
03-04-06, 04:43 PM
This is probably the best thread I've responded to in a week!

No, I don't think a company's past should guide your desicion today. The world has changed since 1942, we shouldn't judge because of past events. Now if this was 1950 and you wanted to buy a Mercedes-Benz or a Mitsubishi and drive it in the US, you'd probably be shot or put in prison. But this is 2006 and it shouldn't make a difference.

SpeedyArizona
03-04-06, 05:00 PM
Daimler-Benz, for example. The firm avidly supported Nazism and in return received arms contracts and tax breaks that enabled it to become one of the world's leading industrial concerns. (Between 1932 and 1940 production grew by 830 percent.) During the war the company used thousands of slaves and forced laborers including Jews, foreigners, and POWs. According to historian Bernard Bellon (Mercedes in Peace and War, 1990), at least eight Jews were murdered by DB managers or SS men at a plant in occupied Poland. There was a report that Daimler-Benz built mobile poison gas vans, but this has never been corroborated and is doubtful.

As for the VW, Hitler didn't name it but there's no question he helped create it. Ferdinand Porsche had been working on a popularly priced "people's car" (whence "Volkswagen"). At a 1934 meeting Hitler told him to make the car an air-cooled four-seater with a streamlined shape "like a beetle." Your wish is mein command, said Ferd. Hitler announced the new car at the Berlin Auto Show. The Nazis sold VW "subscriptions" and a factory was built, but only a few cars were made before hostilities began. During the war the plant churned out V-1 buzz bombs and a Jeep-like vehicle of a design later sold in the U.S. as "The Thing." Only after the Nazi surrender did civilian VW production begin in earnest.

Ferdinand Porsche was long viewed as an unwilling participant in Hitler's war machine but a recent investigation suggests he and his company may have been in deeper than was previously thought. A five-year study by a team of German historians found that as much as 80 percent of VW's wartime workforce of 16,000 may have been slave laborers.

In 1991 the head of the investigative team, Bochum University history professor Hans Mommsen, declared at a symposium, "It's quite clear that Porsche was responsible for hiring concentration camp inmates for the factory's labor camp." Porsche contacted SS leader Heinrich Himmler directly to request slaves from Auschwitz, Mommsen said.

CoupeDevilleRob
03-04-06, 05:12 PM
It's not a rumor that Henry Ford supported the Nazis, it's a fact. He was a huge anti-Semite. He wrote a series of books called "The International Jew", I think they were about Jewish control of the world's banks. Hitler loved them so much he reprinted them and distributed them in Germany. I think Henry and Adolph even met once or twice. The Model T was Hitler's inspiration for the Beetle, he liked the idea of a simple cheap car any working man could afford.

Henry Ford is long dead and I seriously doubt his decendents are as insane as he was. So does him being simpathetic towards Hitler mean I won't buy a Ford? No. I won't buy a Ford because they are garbage.

SpeedyArizona
03-04-06, 05:44 PM
It's not a rumor that Henry Ford supported the Nazis, it's a fact. He was a huge anti-Semite. He wrote a series of books called "The International Jew", I think they were about Jewish control of the world's banks. Hitler loved them so much he reprinted them and distributed them in Germany. I think Henry and Adolph even met once or twice. The Model T was Hitler's inspiration for the Beetle, he liked the idea of a simple cheap car any working man could afford.

Henry Ford was one of the theorists' that belived Jew's, Marxist's, and Capitalist's ruled the world. He was a capitalist and wanted Jew's to be eliminated thus giving him more power. He was an interesting man, maybe not a role model, but he was interesting...

noahsdad
03-04-06, 05:47 PM
The Vatican also supported (quietly) the Nazis. Should I boycott Catholic businesses?

Charles Lindbergh was an avid Nazi sympathizer, even doing national speeches on radio to convince Americans we did not belong in a European war. Should the Spirit of St. Louis be cut down from the museum ceiling?

Don't let anybody tell you ours was a fully united country out to win World War II - that's a media myth. Roosevelt won the election in 1940 based on a promise that we would never enter a European war. A Harris poll conducted in 1944 showed that nearly 40% of all Americans still believed our troops were dying for no good reason on both fronts.

If you want to boycott something, make it something that makes a difference today. If we can make purchases of things only from nice, politically correct, patriotic companies with a spotless track record, there ain't much left to shop for.

mccombie_5
03-04-06, 06:01 PM
It shouldnt effect it any way, and to refuse to buy a car because of the country it comes from is maybe not stupid, but in some cases it isnt wise. Would you rather buy a domestic piece of crap, with poor safety ratings and tragic build quality, or would you rather drive a German or Japanese car that costs $2k more, but has better features, a top notch safety rating and panel gaps that you cannot walk through?

If you're in the market for a new car, you would be wise not to look at all choices available, regardless of country of origin. For example, I disagree with so many aspects of your society in the US, including some of the war stuff, but I wouldnt not buy a car from there because I dislike "Americanisation", I wouldnt buy one if it was inferior to something else that I could get, but if it was the best I could get for the money I wouldnt hesitate in buying a car from the country it is from. My dad has a Vauxhall, which is a branch of GM, so we technically drive an American car, his wife drives an Isuzu, made in Japan, but owned by America, and these cars do the best they can for the strict budgets they were bought for. If Honda had done it better for the same price he would have bought Hondas, or if Volvo, Saab, Ford, Rover or anything else for that matter had done it better for the same price.

mccombie_5
03-04-06, 06:04 PM
If you want to boycott something, make it something that makes a difference today. If we can make purchases of things only from nice, politically correct, patriotic companies with a spotless track record, there ain't much left to shop for.

That quote pretty much sums everything up.

Night Wolf
03-04-06, 07:45 PM
It really dosn't effect my car buying decsion.... though I *prefer* American cars.

Ranger
03-04-06, 07:52 PM
That does not affect what I buy. Having said that, I am proud to say that there never has been and never will be anything but Detroit iron in my garage.

HotRodSaint
03-04-06, 08:00 PM
oh for godsake its just a damned nickname!

Relax, I wasn't picking on you!

It just brought the idea for a topic to mind.

There are more than a few people here who won't buy certain car's because of WWII.

I just wanted to know where the line is drawn, and why??

The early Americans were Indian killers, way above Nazi's, but not much better than Saddam Hussien on the scale of things.

So based on the sins of the country, what should I consider buying?

English cars? They brought slaves to the new world. Australian car's? What about their poor treatment of the aboriginese? How about Czech cars? Former supporters of communists!! What about Spain? Inquisition!!

I can't find one car producing nation that I can buy a car from, if I'm going to use it's past as a measuring stick. :mad:

Jonas McFeely
03-04-06, 08:34 PM
Awesome thread.Glad to see so far that everyone doesnt base a countries past on their car buying decisions.It totally doesnt effect mine.The world has changed,and so have the people that run it.

noahsdad
03-04-06, 08:44 PM
I am proud to say that there never has been and never will be anything but Detroit iron in my garage.


:thumbsup: Yup. Ditto

Sandy
03-04-06, 08:53 PM
Okay, my turn. As the only person here, seemingly willing to admit that they are Jewish I will scratch the surface, and offer some fact. (Cliffs Notes Follow) ~ ~

A purchasing decession is a personal choice. If a person feels like they do not wish to patronize a particular car company (or any other company) for some historical reason, THAT is what we all enjoy in the freedom of America. He who choses not to buy "Brand X" because of (____) fill in the blank, that is that person's right of decession. To tell that person he/she is "wrong" ~ is actually WHAT IS wrong in that equation. I hate chicken. I don't eat it, period. Would it be correct to tell me that I am wrong?

That said, Paragraph #2. Ford. Ford Motor Company, today has at the helm the President of Ford of America, Mr. Mark Fields, who is a religious Jewish man, and hails from Springfield N.J. a town just 9 miles from me and a town in which our son is an EMS Tech. No other car corporation, to the best of MY knowledge has ever had a Jewish person at it's helm. Fileds will save Ford, in the end and turn the company 360-degrees around, if for no other reason but as to kick sand in Henry Ford's proverberal face. Bill Ford has given Fields "carte blanch" to run the company. The man is driven by a force unknown to anyone, but a Jewish man, and that is to prove an anti semite was wrong. Only sex is a stronger urge XXX Scratch that, I think I am wrong there, Sex is NOT as strong. Fields will amaze !! !! !!

Paragraph #3. I have no family. I have my lovely and kind wife and our brilliant son. That's it. There are no family bar-b-ques, no big set table at Thanksgiving, no family gatherings in December, or on New Years Eve. Just us 3. My 4 grandparents were gassed in the ovens in Germany, my Mom escaped, but not before being tatoo'd with her number. My dad? The same. My parents, as well my wife's are long dead. Mom had a brother, he woulda been my uncle. They had no money for college for my Mom & her brother, so Alan entered the armed service. He was on the boat at Pearl Harbor. He perished. Dead at 19. (I would be forever indebted to anyone who can help me undersatnd what role or what are grndparents' roles in a person's life. It's sorta meaningless to me).

Paragraph #4. We go to visit our parents at the cemetary on Mother's & Farther's days, on their Birthdays' and on the days that they passed away, (the anniversary thereof) ~ we also go on certain Jewish Holy-Days. What if. 'Ya....what if, as they say, they ARE looking down at us, Us arriving in a German or Asian car? What WOULD they SAY ? So......in the memory of their loved ones, that died pennyless, shaved heads so the Germans could hock their hair, the Gold cut from their teeth, every last piece of financial value stolen from them before gassing them, I drive a Cadillac & a Lincoln, should they indeed, be "looking down" ~ and if NOT, I do it because it just feels "right" in their "presence" and "right" for me.

Paragraph #5. - Yes, We (as a family) were the greatest supporters of Chrysler Corporation, probably the greatest on the entire east coast. Dad was a stockholder, and from 1957 to 1978 they owned a grand total of 22 Imperials, one each, every year. I owned 6 Imperials along the way. Is that support? Chrysler Corporation died. It is no more. Only the copywrited names and trademarks live on. True, the cars are made in America, but the corporation is not AmericaN. "Daimler-Chrysler" is like Hebrew National - Pork !

So, I chose to support the corporations of America, for I am an American, and our corporations are fading fast, due to "Offshoring" and "Outsourcing" and Huge Deficiets, etc. etc. for, first of all, and above all, I AM AN AMERICAN, and I live in the greatest Nation on Earth to whom I owe a deep debt. The debt of allowing two people to escape certain horrid death at the hands of the Nazis, and come to this colony, and educate themseves, and make alot of money and met one & other in a little town known as Chicago and move to Nu Jork and meet there & marry & have ME ME ME. (and) As they say it could ONLY happen IN AMERICA, and so......I will 4-ever buy America made and American corportaion product when ever possible.

Now, who has the chupzah to tell me that I am wrong ?
Shalom over & out.

mccombie_5
03-04-06, 09:07 PM
Okay, my turn. As the only person here, seemingly willing to admit that they are Jewish I will scratch the surface, and offer some fact. (Cliffs Notes Follow) ~ ~

A purchasing decession is a personal choice. If a person feels like they do not wish to patronize a particular car company (or any other company) for some historical reason, THAT is what we all enjoy in the freedom of America. He who choses not to buy "Brand X" because of (____) fill in the blank, that is that person's right of decession. To tell that person he/she is "wrong" ~ is actually WHAT IS wrong in that equation. I hate chicken. I don't eat it, period. Would it be correct to tell me that I am wrong?

That said, Paragraph #2. Ford. Ford Motor Company, today has at the helm the President of Ford of America, Mr. Mark Fields, who is a religious Jewish man, and hails from Springfield N.J. a town just 9 miles from me and a town in which our son is an EMS Tech. No other car corporation, to the best of MY knowledge has ever had a Jewish person at it's helm. Fileds will save Ford, in the end and turn the company 360-degrees around, if for no other reason but as to kick sand in Henry Ford's proverberal face. Bill Ford has given Fields "carte blanch" to run the company. The man is driven by a force unknown to anyone, but a Jewish man, and that is to prove an anti semite was wrong. Only sex is a stronger urge XXX Scratch that, I think I am wrong there, Sex is NOT as strong. Fields will amaze !! !! !!

Paragraph #3. I have no family. I have my lovely and kind wife and our brilliant son. That's it. There are no family bar-b-ques, no big set table at Thanksgiving, no family gatherings in December, or on New Years Eve. Just us 3. My 4 grandparents were gassed in the ovens in Germany, my Mom escaped, but not before being tatoo'd with her number. My dad? The same. My parents, as well my wife's are long dead. Mom had a brother, he woulda been my uncle. They had no money for college for my Mom & her brother, so Alan entered the armed service. He was on the boat at Pearl Harbor. He perished. Dead at 19. (I would be forever indebted to anyone who can help me undersatnd what role or what are grndparents' roles in a person's life. It's sorta meaningless to me).

Paragraph #4. We go to visit our parents at the cemetary on Mother's & Farther's days, on their Birthdays' and on the days that they passed away, (the anniversary thereof) ~ we also go on certain Jewish Holy-Days. What if. 'Ya....what if, as they say, they ARE looking down at us, Us arriving in a German or Asian car? What WOULD they SAY ? So......in the memory of their loved ones, that died pennyless, shaved heads so the Germans could hock their hair, the Gold cut from their teeth, every last piece of financial value stolen from them before gassing them, I drive a Cadillac & a Lincoln, should they indeed, be "looking down" ~ and if NOT, I do it because it just feels "right" in their "presence" and "right" for me.

Paragraph #5. - Yes, We (as a family) were the greatest supporters of Chrysler Corporation, probably the greatest on the entire east coast. Dad was a stockholder, and from 1957 to 1978 they owned a grand total of 22 Imperials, one each, every year. I owned 6 Imperials along the way. Is that support? Chrysler Corporation died. It is no more. Only the copywrited names and trademarks live on. True, the cars are made in America, but the corporation is not AmericaN. "Daimler-Chrysler" is like Hebrew National - Pork !

So, I chose to support the corporations of America, for I am an American, and our corporations are fading fast, due to "Offshoring" and "Outsourcing" and Huge Deficiets, etc. etc. for, first of all, and above all, I AM AN AMERICAN, and I live in the greatest Nation on Earth to whom I owe a deep debt. The debt of allowing two people to escape certain horrid death at the hands of the Nazis, and come to this colony, and educate themseves, and make alot of money and met one & other in a little town known as Chicago and move to Nu Jork and meet there & marry & have ME ME ME. (and) As they say it could ONLY happen IN AMERICA, and so......I will 4-ever buy America made and American corportaion product when ever possible.

Now, who has the chupzah to tell me that I am wrong ?
Shalom over & out.



But Sandy, as much as I agree with your desicison to only buy American, and respect that, and I know your parent's story, but have I not read you saying if you had the money to spend, you would buy a Jaguar or a Maserati?

(the following part is not in reply to Sandy specifically, just a general reply to the thread)

To be honest, few of my family (great grandad) were effected directly by WWII, and I cannot hold a grudge against anyone because of it. I would buy a Mercedes, or a BMW, or anything that fulfilled my needs the best way. Or maybe its just down to pure want. People will lose alot of their ideals when moeny comes into it. I've seen it happen. Its also amazing how spiritual and forward thinking you become when you lose alot of money, I've seen that very close to me, at the bottom line, money makes the world go round, and if people want something enough (American made or not) they will buy it, if they have their own reasons for not buying it, they wont, it just seems that people only have their reasons that have effected them or their family, so to buy an English car, well it sort of goes against anyone with Indian or African heritage, a German car for those with Polish or Jewish heritage, an American car for those who are direct descendants of American Indians, Austrailian car for those who are in and related with the tribes.

Just a question though, would you buy a car made in somewhere like The United Arab Emirates by an Arabian company? The UAE, as far as I recall, hasnt done any actual harm to anyone American in a worldwide sense, and if it was a superior product, in a reasonable price bracket, would you buy it?

I think alot of people wouldnt just because it wasfrom the middle East.

Sandy
03-04-06, 10:55 PM
Yes, I'd buy a Jag or a Maser. Neither are German or Asian, and when Mom escaped Germany she made her way to Italy, where people hid her from Nazis who came there searching for stow-a-ways & clothed & fed her care of her, so I am told at the time there were many Italians that did this. Regardless I would never drop $100,000 ++ for a car. That's just nuts! I will do it as soon as I win the lottery !!

Florian
03-04-06, 10:59 PM
Ill buy GM and GM only......



F

fast66
03-04-06, 11:02 PM
all I can say is
be patriotic, buy a cadillac!

always wanted to make a bumper sticker with that on it.

SpeedyArizona
03-04-06, 11:03 PM
As long as we're on this subject, I'll throw out that I am German. I cannot change who I am, nor do I have the intuition to. I was taught to be proud of my heritage, not deny it because of the immense hate of a single man and his followers. I know that a relative of mine was a Nazi during the way, he did not do this willingly nor did he condone Hitler's "final solution". Many were forced to become a Nazi otherwise would be killed. II never knew him well, but my parent's used to tell stories that he told them when I was old enough to understand it (around 14-15). He died many, many years ago, but I can still recall some of his war stories.

HotRodSaint
03-05-06, 12:38 AM
As long as we're on this subject, I'll throw out that I am German.

That explains the Porsche!! :bouncy:

Just kidding.

HotRodSaint
03-05-06, 12:53 AM
My grandfather was a fighter pilot in the 8th airforce. I just learned that the VW factory was a target of the 8th airforce.

My grandfather was killed in action in a P51A Mustang. It was definitely the Germans who killed him. He killed Germans too. It was a war.

But to hold the grandkids responsible for the sins of their grandfathers is why nations go to war.

We dropped an Atomic bomb on Japan and interned Japanese-Americans and confiscated their real estate. Should all Japanese decendants boycott US products forever because of our activites during a war that took place over 50 years ago?

Sandy
03-05-06, 01:07 AM
Speedy, you will note that I am of German heritage as well. Mom & Dad weren't over there on a Club Med deal !:bigroll: My heritage IS German, and it cannot be denied. We are of the same origin or Nationality. See ?

Jonas McFeely
03-05-06, 06:13 AM
My grandparents and parents suffered because of what they were born into?That sucks,i agree.Horrible thing to happen and to have as part of your past.The nazi germans were horrible people,as were the crazy japs that wanted to harm America.BUT,it is infact 2006 and though i am not of jewish or asian or whatever descent,i could never rationalize not buying a car simply because of where it came from,and doing so would make you a bitter and ignorant person.It is a car,built buy modern people.Not commies,not nazis,not whatever.Built by someone trying to earn a descent wage.I will buy my cadillacs and chevys,but i will also buy my nissans and mazdas,because they build a quality car at a good price with good performance and handling.God bless America and anyone who feels the same.God bless Japan and Germany for strengthening our economies and helping create a better quality of living for us.

mccombie_5
03-05-06, 07:01 AM
Well, while we're on a similar topic, I do not think choosing a domestic car is stupid, maybe not wise sometimes though, but I DO think brand loyalty is stupid. I wouldn't buy a car from a certain brand just for the sake of it being a certain brand, I just think that's a silly thing to do, if you can have something better, get it, instead of buying inferior produce.

I personally see GM going the same way Austin-Rover did in the early 1990s, and that company no longer exists.

Katshot
03-05-06, 07:27 AM
Threads like this are the reason certain forums aren't here anymore. They only serve to get people riled up. It's a VERY touchy subject. One that I will stay out of, even though I am quite passionate about it. :canttalk:

mccombie_5
03-05-06, 10:59 AM
Threads like this are the reason certain forums aren't here anymore. They only serve to get people riled up. It's a VERY touchy subject. One that I will stay out of, even though I am quite passionate about it. :canttalk:

I think so far this thread has remained civil, and as long as people dont result to lowly insults and personal flaming, I think this topic can continue and provide an intersesting insight.

Or maybe the mods are feeling very lenient.

Sandy
03-05-06, 12:24 PM
Switching gears.

3 years ago Mitsubishi was accused publicly & in the courts of not hiring very many black americans and definately not promoting the black americans that they hired. Mitsu was brought to trial, but I don't recall the outcome. However immediately all black americans stopped buying Mitsu cars. A month later, the same accusations were released regarding Texaco gas, and black americans stopped buying that.

Well, its been ages since I saw a Texaco Station in NJ and I think they might all be gone. Mitsu has never recovered from that and you look on the road, today, and see if you can spot even one African American DRIVING a Mitsubishi. I can't, maybe someone else can..... The stigma remains.
Now, mind you, Mitsubishi was found innocient of the charges, and publicly said that they will look to promote qualified black americans to prominent posistions within Mitsu of America, ouit in Calif.
Yet, today 4 years later, Mitsu has the lowest percentage of African American owners of all brands.
Now, consider this.... lets say that the charges WERE in fact, true. (They mighta been, who really knows....or they mighta been all lies, again, who really knows. So lets take worst case scenero. Mitsu GUILTY ! Okay? Guilty of what? Guilty of not hiring enough and promoting African Americans in their corporate structure. They were NOT guilty of killing 6 million !!
Imagine the reaction had Mitsu killed 6 million Black people ??
Now, maybe you can see the analogy between me & them. So, that said, you can see why I would not own (or drive) any German Corporations cars.
Sweden and/or Italy, and England yes, I would buy 'n drive. But still prefer Cadillac & Lincoln.

SpeedyArizona
03-05-06, 12:49 PM
Mitsubishi is one company that shouldn't be on US soil. I've heard of different lawsuits, and one interesting fact is that they're STILL using slave labor in Korea to build their cars. I don't know how they got away with it, but I can't do anything about it.

SpeedyArizona
03-05-06, 12:52 PM
It's great to have a rational thread where there isn't any petty bickering, we can discuss issues like adults!

Jonas McFeely
03-05-06, 01:10 PM
Switching gears.

3 years ago Mitsubishi was accused publicly & in the courts of not hiring very many black americans and definately not promoting the black americans that they hired. Mitsu was brought to trial, but I don't recall the outcome. However immediately all black americans stopped buying Mitsu cars. A month later, the same accusations were released regarding Texaco gas, and black americans stopped buying that.

Well, its been ages since I saw a Texaco Station in NJ and I think they might all be gone. Mitsu has never recovered from that and you look on the road, today, and see if you can spot even one African American DRIVING a Mitsubishi. I can't, maybe someone else can..... The stigma remains.
Now, mind you, Mitsubishi was found innocient of the charges, and publicly said that they will look to promote qualified black americans to prominent posistions within Mitsu of America, ouit in Calif.
Yet, today 4 years later, Mitsu has the lowest percentage of African American owners of all brands.
Now, consider this.... lets say that the charges WERE in fact, true. (They mighta been, who really knows....or they mighta been all lies, again, who really knows. So lets take worst case scenero. Mitsu GUILTY ! Okay? Guilty of what? Guilty of not hiring enough and promoting African Americans in their corporate structure. They were NOT guilty of killing 6 million !!
Imagine the reaction had Mitsu killed 6 million Black people ??
Now, maybe you can see the analogy between me & them. So, that said, you can see why I would not own (or drive) any German Corporations cars.
Sweden and/or Italy, and England yes, I would buy 'n drive. But still prefer Cadillac & Lincoln.

I see your point.

Adam
03-05-06, 02:19 PM
ok. like i said, i love Mercedes but i hate bmw and vw, ugly cars imo. my grandpa is like that, he wont buy anything from japan or germany. he survived D-Day, his brothers (2) died that day and 1 died in Pearl Harbor. the other one died at the Battle of Midway. excellent topic though Jeff :thumbsup:.


Relax, I wasn't picking on you!

It just brought the idea for a topic to mind.

There are more than a few people here who won't buy certain car's because of WWII.

I just wanted to know where the line is drawn, and why??

The early Americans were Indian killers, way above Nazi's, but not much better than Saddam Hussien on the scale of things.

So based on the sins of the country, what should I consider buying?

English cars? They brought slaves to the new world. Australian car's? What about their poor treatment of the aboriginese? How about Czech cars? Former supporters of communists!! What about Spain? Inquisition!!

I can't find one car producing nation that I can buy a car from, if I'm going to use it's past as a measuring stick. :mad:

Sandy
03-05-06, 02:21 PM
Thank you, Sir !:thumbsup:

I~LUV~Caddys8792
03-05-06, 02:32 PM
I have to say that a nation's policy doesn't guide my car buying. I buy what fits my needs to the fullest extent. If im buying a family sedan, and the best product in that specific market is Japanese or German, I would buy it all things considered. But I could understand not buying from a certain country if your ancestors we're persecuted by that country at some point. For example, I thought of what Sandy said about his religion being persecuted by the Nazis which is why he wont buy a German Car (Am I right Sandy?) or maybe someone during the Battle of Britain won't buy a german car, or possibly someone's grandparents or parents died in the Pearl Harbor bombing, which is a good reason not to buy a Japanese vehicle, especially a Mitsubishi considering they made various warplanes during that era.

Caddy Man
03-05-06, 03:19 PM
I dont think we realize what OUR country has done in the past. We killed and took the native americans land, we enslaved black people, after they were free black people went through many challenges for equality. We dropped a nuke on hiroshima and nagasaki, I think they are still feeling the effects of that to this day. Sure they bombed a MILITARY BASE, but we killed many innnocent people in the process, one of the most atrocious military strikes ever. Hmmmm maybe all those people affected should not buy anything American. I dont think we have any right to judge or hold grudges against people, because our nation has done some messed up stuff too.

I~LUV~Caddys8792
03-05-06, 03:20 PM
I dont think we have any right to judge or hold grudges against people, because our nation has done some messed up stuff too.

Good point!

Jonas McFeely
03-05-06, 03:50 PM
ok. like i said, i love Mercedes but i hate bmw and vw, ugly cars imo. my grandpa is like that, he wont buy anything from japan or germany. he survived D-Day, his brothers (2) died that day and 1 died in Pearl Harbor. the other one died at the Battle of Midway. excellent topic though Jeff :thumbsup:.

My grandfather was in WWII and installed the some of the first radar in planes in Pearl Harbor and he was always a Buick guy,but when the 80's rolled around he bought him self an '88 Integra(which was a piece of shit).Im just saying times change,he got over it,

HotRodSaint
03-05-06, 04:24 PM
Now, maybe you can see the analogy between me & them.

Actually there is a flaw in your analogy. The Mitsubishi corporation was accused of certain practices. Setting aside Jesse Jacksons shakedown tour of America, sexism was also a practice that Mitsubishi has been accused of, even though it is safe to say that the Eclipse is now a chick car.

But it was a company that was accused of these alledged injustices, not Japan.

Mercedes, BMW, Auto Union, Opel, NSU or VW have never, to my knowledge, been accused of having been directly involved in the attempted extermination of the Jewish people.

The government of the country in which their coporation resided was responsible for the atrocities that happened, and their government also interned and killed those German Catholics, Protestants and others that were brave enough to stand up for what was right.

As German corporations, they were there to make money and Nazi controlled Germany certainly provided them with money for research and development.

But in the end, it was the Nazi parties control of the German Republic that lead to the atrocities against humanity.

Auto Unions dominance of international auto racing during the period was not an atrocity against humanity, unless you were working for Alfa Romeo. It was a technological advancement of humanity. And as archaic as the 1936 VW now appears, during it's time it too was a masterful use of technology for achieving 'peoples car'.

So to blame Coca-Cola for the past treatment of blacks in Atlanta, is taking the blame to the wrong party. It was the government of the US and the state of Georgia that allowed blacks to be treated poorly up until the 1960's. Coca-Cola was operating their company under the law of the land. What else does one expect from a corporation?

And why blame todays Coca-Cola employees, many of whom weren't born until Reagan was in office, for the sins of their fathers, grandfathers and great grandfathers?

This is the issue facing the Palestinians and Israelis today. Your dad bombed my dad, so I hate you for it. At some point, a bigger man (or woman) has to arise and say, "Your dad was an idiot, but you seem to be ok, let's get some coffee".

Jonas McFeely
03-05-06, 04:42 PM
Actually there is a flaw in your analogy. The Mitsubishi corporation was accused of certain practices. Setting aside Jesse Jacksons shakedown tour of America, sexism was also a practice that Mitsubishi has been accused of, even though it is safe to say that the Eclipse is now a chick car.

But it was a company that was accused of these alledged injustices, not Japan.

Mercedes, BMW, Auto Union, Opel, NSU or VW have never, to my knowledge, been accused of having been directly involved in the attempted extermination of the Jewish people.

The government of the country in which their coporation resided was responsible for the atrocities that happened, and their government also interned and killed those German Catholics, Protestants and others that were brave enough to stand up for what was right.

As German corporations, they were there to make money and Nazi controlled Germany certainly provided them with money for research and development.

But in the end, it was the Nazi parties control of the German Republic that lead to the atrocities against humanity.

Auto Unions dominance of international auto racing during the period was not an atrocity against humanity, unless you were working for Alfa Romeo. It was a technological advancement of humanity. And as archaic as the 1936 VW now appears, during it's time it too was a masterful use of technology for achieving 'peoples car'.

So to blame Coca-Cola for the past treatment of blacks in Atlanta, is taking the blame to the wrong party. It was the government of the US and the state of Georgia that allowed blacks to be treated poorly up until the 1960's. Coca-Cola was operating their company under the law of the land. What else does one expect from a corporation?

And why blame todays Coca-Cola employees, many of whom weren't born until Reagan was in office, for the sins of their fathers, grandfathers and great grandfathers?

This is the issue facing the Palestinians and Israelis today. Your dad bombed my dad, so I hate you for it. At some point, a bigger man (or woman) has to arise and say, "Your dad was an idiot, but you seem to be ok, let's get some coffee".

Brilliant.I have to agree more with this statement.Both of you guys make good points.But you hit the nail on the head here.

Sandy
03-05-06, 04:45 PM
I got over it too! I believe it's called Forgive, but don't forget. Germany's people of today, like Americans, all have different viewpoints. When you meet up, befriend and speak openly with them, many (I can't say what percent) but many..... will look downward at the ground, some will almost hang head in shame, some will even apologize for the wrongs of the past, even though they were not even born then, but they carry the shame.
Truthfully the decent people are very sorry. But.....should you REALLY befrend a young (Oh, say 20-30 year old male and establish a warm friendship and ask him (only after he feels very comfortable with you) .... and you ask him what's the feeling today, and if he's open and honest, he'll tell that when with buddies and e'one knows e'one and like they're out for a burger & a brewski, some still deep down verbalize a hatred towards Jews. But they NEVER would do so in mixed or not-well-known company.
It's still there, just deep underground, but truth be told, they like our money.
I was told that it's more preveliant among the 50+ assembly line type worker set, and not very prevelient among women.

Regardless just to re-state, I'm a Caddy Guy or a Lincoln Guy, unless I win a pile of money in some Lotto, then I'd get a Jaguar XJ Super 8 Portfolio Edition.

I've got a buyer waiting patiently with $22,000 in hand to buy my '03 Town Car with 9,400 miles on it so I went and looked at a 25th Anniversary Edition Town Car with the 5 options, but it would cost an additional $ 26,000 to move up 3 years. Seems too steep. The DTS is an additiona; $33,000. Both seem too high. Think I'll keep the 2003 for another 2 years.
I LOVE the Satrurn Sky, and would buy one, but I can't fit in it!! Can't wait for SPRING to get out the Sixty Special, wash, wax, detail, and get those Vogues snow white again and polish the chrome rim and go to a show !!
(SICK OF WINTER):rant2:

I~LUV~Caddys8792
03-05-06, 04:52 PM
Sandy, why dont you ever get something from the glory days of american automobiles, like that '71 Imperial you've always liked....or an older Town Car from the '70s....something neat like that

Sandy
03-05-06, 05:01 PM
Sandy, why dont you ever get something from the glory days of american automobiles, like that '71 Imperial you've always liked....or an older Town Car from the '70s....something neat like that

'cause it would have to be perfect, concours, show quality award winning 100pt. car or I would not be happy...and IF it was, then I couldn't drive it, as it would deteriorate. The Town car is a daily driver, and is still under warrantee, so it does not cost me any money for repairs (or upkeep).
1971 Imperials have all left the planet :crybaby: They were THE best !
I'd also love a 1967 Eldorado, and (another) brand new 1975 Imperial, and a Toronado Caliente and a Ultra rare (longest name a car ever had) Dodge Royal Monaco Brougham with Diplomat Roof Pakage. A (last year) 1966 Studebaker Lark Daytona Coupe with the Avanti R-2 Andy Granitelli Supercharged V-8 would be the ultimate trophy car, tho.

Ranger
03-05-06, 05:02 PM
I dont think we realize what OUR country has done in the past. We killed and took the native americans land, we enslaved black people, after they were free black people went through many challenges for equality. We dropped a nuke on hiroshima and nagasaki, I think they are still feeling the effects of that to this day. Sure they bombed a MILITARY BASE, but we killed many innnocent people in the process, one of the most atrocious military strikes ever. Hmmmm maybe all those people affected should not buy anything American. I dont think we have any right to judge or hold grudges against people, because our nation has done some messed up stuff too.
What you fail to understand is that we just did it first. If Japan had it's way, you'd be speaking Japaneese today and not likely have any of the freedoms you take for granted. We simply finished what they started. When wars are fough, innocent people always die. Would you rather that we invaded Japan and lost another million American lives in order to save Japaneese lives? We did what had to be done and I as an American would apologize to no one for it, nor would I ever feel any shame as you seem to.

Jonas McFeely
03-05-06, 05:07 PM
I got over it too! I believe it's called Forgive, but don't forget. Germany's people of today, like Americans, all have different viewpoints. When you meet up, befriend and speak openly with them, many (I can't say what percent) but many..... will look downward at the ground, some will almost hang head in shame, some will even apologize for the wrongs of the past, even though they were not even born then, but they carry the shame.
Truthfully the decent people are very sorry. But.....should you REALLY befrend a young (Oh, say 20-30 year old male and establish a warm friendship and ask him (only after he feels very comfortable with you) .... and you ask him what's the feeling today, and if he's open and honest, he'll tell that when with buddies and e'one knows e'one and like they're out for a burger & a brewski, some still deep down verbalize a hatred towards Jews. But they NEVER would do so in mixed or not-well-known company.
It's still there, just deep underground, but truth be told, they like our money.
I was told that it's more preveliant among the 50+ assembly line type worker set, and not very prevelient among women.

Regardless just to re-state, I'm a Caddy Guy or a Lincoln Guy, unless I win a pile of money in some Lotto, then I'd get a Jaguar XJ Super 8 Portfolio Edition.

I've got a buyer waiting patiently with $22,000 in hand to buy my '03 Town Car with 9,400 miles on it so I went and looked at a 25th Anniversary Edition Town Car with the 5 options, but it would cost an additional $ 26,000 to move up 3 years. Seems too steep. The DTS is an additiona; $33,000. Both seem too high. Think I'll keep the 2003 for another 2 years.
I LOVE the Satrurn Sky, and would buy one, but I can't fit in it!! Can't wait for SPRING to get out the Sixty Special, wash, wax, detail, and get those Vogues snow white again and polish the chrome rim and go to a show !!
(SICK OF WINTER):rant2:

I hear ya.Its starting to really warm up here in central florida.I just got a call while i was reading your post about my buddys neighbors caddy.This guy has like 5 cadillacs.One of them is a Fleetwood Brougham,not sure what year,but before 90 and after 85.Its been for sale for a long time,but not in the paper or online,just a sign on the car.It has a bad tranny.But thats it.The guy really wants to get rid of it because he cant afford to keep insurance on it.And he knows im a cadillac nut and wants me to have it.So im going to talk to him tomorrow,he said he could probably work with me on the payments too.So im feeling pretty damn good right now.Im gonna use the Brougham with the bad tranny for parts,seeing as how i need both pumpers and tail light assembly and headlight bezels and some other stuff to get my Brougham looking good,i wanna get it all fixed for the Old Town meet.

HotRodSaint
03-05-06, 05:46 PM
I got over it too! I believe it's called Forgive, but don't forget. Germany's people of today, like Americans, all have different viewpoints.

It's been fun. But more important, civil. I hope you don't mind me playing devils advocate with you. If my faith was persecuted by another nation, I'd be pretty much set against them too.

Oh wait, that's why we have the United States of America in the first place!! Some of us got tired of being burned at the stake as heritics!! But I'd still buy a Bentely!!

Anwyay, I'm leaving for a job interview in Italy. Being that it's a job interview, I won't bring up the politics of WWII.

I will try to see the Fiat factory were Mussolinis war machine was being built!! :bouncy:

HotRodSaint
03-05-06, 05:48 PM
(SICK OF WINTER):rant2:

I'm tired of these 65 degree days too. :rolleyes:

I hope it's at least 70 when I come back!! :highfive:

Caddy Man
03-05-06, 05:51 PM
What you fail to understand is that we just did it first. If Japan had it's way, you'd be speaking Japaneese today and not likely have any of the freedoms you take for granted. We simply finished what they started. When wars are fough, innocent people always die. Would you rather that we invaded Japan and lost another million American lives in order to save Japaneese lives? We did what had to be done and I as an American would apologize to no one for it, nor would I ever feel any shame as you seem to.
sure peopel die in wars, but did we have to nuke them??? Peopel are still feeling the effects today with the higher levels of radiation on those areas. And bsides the nuking of those 2 cities, what about the enslavement of black people and the inequality they faced?? sure not everyone held slaves or was racist, but the entire system was prejeduced. Or the native americans like I said. Anyone can sit there and justify why we did what. Go talk to some arabs in the middle east and they can justify from thier viewpoint the events of 9/11. That dosnt make it right.

Caddy Man
03-05-06, 05:56 PM
Truthfully the decent people are very sorry. But.....should you REALLY befrend a young (Oh, say 20-30 year old male and establish a warm friendship and ask him (only after he feels very comfortable with you) .... and you ask him what's the feeling today, and if he's open and honest, he'll tell that when with buddies and e'one knows e'one and like they're out for a burger & a brewski, some still deep down verbalize a hatred towards Jews. But they NEVER would do so in mixed or not-well-known company.
It's still there, just deep underground, but truth be told, they like our money.
I was told that it's more preveliant among the 50+ assembly line type worker set, and not very prevelient among women.

Sandy, I hear a lot of negativity towards Jews in the USA and other places that arent Germany also.

Sandy
03-05-06, 06:05 PM
Thing here is that some of you guys are either confusing...or comparing War with Genocide. There is no comparasion!! !! The only comparasion is that people die, granted, that part is true. War, briefly is when two nations cannot agree on something and all talks & hopes fail, and they go to war over it. It actually doesn't have to be between two nations. Think: Our Civil War.
Genocide is when one group (or country) decides for reasons of their own, under a dictatorship government (or an insane leader) decides to wipe out an entire race or religion. One kills solders the other kills housewives, teens, the elderly and the 6 year old children.... War is not Genocide & Genocide is not War......

Feed Google the word Genocide and read & then feed google the word War & read !!!

MAJOR BIG differance!

SpeedyArizona
03-05-06, 06:06 PM
sure peopel die in wars, but did we have to nuke them??? Peopel are still feeling the effects today with the higher levels of radiation on those areas. And bsides the nuking of those 2 cities, what about the enslavement of black people and the inequality they faced?? sure not everyone held slaves or was racist, but the entire system was prejeduced. Or the native americans like I said. Anyone can sit there and justify why we did what. Go talk to some arabs in the middle east and they can justify from thier viewpoint the events of 9/11. That dosnt make it right.

I think our nuking of Hiroshima and Nagasaki was justified. The war could've dragged on for YEARS if we didn't try to put a stop to it. It was either we would lose tens of thousands of American lives or we could take the lives of the ones that hated us (granted many civilians perished).

We have had our share of problems, but we always overcome them together. I would hate to be in a Liberal college today, from what I've heard most of the teachers are extremists'.

gothicaleigh
03-05-06, 06:07 PM
Just remember that basing your buying habits upon the history of the manufacturer's home country works both ways ...and we've made our share of enemies in this country. Especially if they want to look back over 50 years as some of you are willing to.

SpeedyArizona
03-05-06, 06:11 PM
Sandy, I hear a lot of negativity towards Jews in the USA and other places that arent Germany also.

Many people still believe Jews are controllers of the world economy. This sparks some hateful propoganda which leads to the negativity. Do I personally believe this? No, but I do have a few family members that do. Sandy, are you wealthy beyond our belief:D?