: 4T80E heartbreak with pictures



scorpio
02-28-06, 10:58 PM
My 94 Concours was throwing PO29 and PO94 at me. I read up on the Solenoid problem and decided to get the kit and replace both solenoids.

After droping the pan and draining the ATF I discovered something. Dont ask me what I discovered cuz i dunno fer sure. About the only thing i could make of it was its gunna cost alot to fix. In a small pile there were bits and pieces of something plastic that looked important. Along with these bits n pieces was a check ball. One friend suggested it was part of a clutch band but was not absolutly sure. Sooooooo, here is a snapshot of the pieces.


Can anyone tell me what it is, or should I say, what it used to be.

eldorado1
02-28-06, 11:04 PM
You found this in the bottom pan and not the side cover?

Ranger
03-01-06, 02:41 AM
I don't know what it is, but it can;t be good. I'm surprised it still ran.

scorpio
03-01-06, 09:19 AM
This was found in the pan. I did not remove the side cover. Also, I probably should mention that "Double A (beep beep) MCO" looked at the trans several months ago. What AAMCO opened when they looked, I have no idea, is it possible the debris was originaly behind the side cover and they fished this out then simply left it in the pan?

zonie77
03-01-06, 02:25 PM
Was the car driveable? How was the trans acting?

The check ball and possibly some of the plastic was solenoid parts. The curved pieces? Possibly a cable/wire guide.

It wouldn't get from the side to the bottom. It is a lot of work to get the side cover off so I doubt they did that.

Dadillac
03-01-06, 04:35 PM
Was the car driveable? How was the trans acting?

The check ball and possibly some of the plastic was solenoid parts. The curved pieces? Possibly a cable/wire guide.

It wouldn't get from the side to the bottom. It is a lot of work to get the side cover off so I doubt they did that.
That is what I am thinking. The wiring harness is run through some plastic that looks just like that. Look at yours, and see if the plastic is broke. Here is a pic.

Don

danbuc
03-01-06, 04:42 PM
One of those pieces ( the one that looks like it's about an inch wide towards the top facing sideways) looks liek it has two indentations that would line up with the alignment teeth in a clutch pack. Have you felt the material at all to see if it feel smooth like plastic, or rough liek 600 grit sandpaper. If it's a little rough, then it could be clutch material, if not, then it's likely plastic. If it was a clutch disc, it's not burnt, which would lead me to suspect a broken piece of plastic.

scorpio
03-02-06, 03:21 AM
I've been driving the car in 2nd gear three to five days a week for about a year. Only 5 to 10 mile trips around town rarely exceding 45 mph.

The trans makes a noise when the spedo hits 4 mph (in drive or reverse), sounds like a soft spongey crunch, like two plastic gears not meshing, possibly stripped. When the spedo gets to 40, there is a slight hesitation then the check engine light comes on.


After cleaning the debris from the pan, I just bolted it back on and refilled the trans. The car operates just as it did before I dropped the pan

The broken pieces are smooth hard plastic like. One thing that seems odd is the plastic looks worn smooth in some areas and jagged in other places. This may indicate the part was wearing down then just snapped. The trans fluid had only a slight odor, it did not have an acrid burnt smell.

The solenoids appeared to be in good condition, they were firmly seated in the valve body. Nothing was dangeling.

zonie77
03-02-06, 09:39 AM
I would have thought some of the debris was solenoid....hmmmmmmmmmmmm.

If you want to do something (before changing the trans) try replacing the solenoids and cleaning the valve body (or replacing it). There might be debris keeping them from working.

apollo
03-02-06, 07:32 PM
My 94 Concours was throwing PO29 and PO94 at me. I read up on the Solenoid problem and decided to get the kit and replace both solenoids.

After droping the pan and draining the ATF I discovered something. Dont ask me what I discovered cuz i dunno fer sure. About the only thing i could make of it was its gunna cost alot to fix. In a small pile there were bits and pieces of something plastic that looked important. Along with these bits n pieces was a check ball. One friend suggested it was part of a clutch band but was not absolutly sure. Sooooooo, here is a snapshot of the pieces.


Can anyone tell me what it is, or should I say, what it used to be.
If that is a ball bearing or round metal ball that is found in the valve body.
has the valve body ever been off??

scorpio
03-02-06, 10:18 PM
Excelent question, the answer is maybe.

I did not pull the valve body. When I saw the debris in the pan the relatively simple job seemed like it was not so simple anymore.

When I saw the pieces, I just cleaned the pan, bolted it back on and topped off the ATF. I was expecting to find a semi injured or mangled solenoid. The solenoids looked pretty good from the outside and were firmly seated in the valve body. I've read in other posts that the failed solenoid is typicaly dangeling or in some way visibly damaged. Would a bad solenoid be visibly damaged where it protrudes from outside the valve body or does the case have to be cracked open to see any damage?

The one thing that bothers me is how does a check ball work its way out of a securely bolted encasing like a valve body. Where did that ball come from? I'm no expert but It just didn't add up. One person suggested it came from a solenoid, but both A & B looked ok from the outside of the valve body. the integrety of both were good, if one or both were mangled I could venture a guess that the ball came from a solenoid. All I could do was scratch the top of my thinning scalp and wonder.

Since I never removed the valve body much less drained the side case I got to thinking maybe the last "professional" at aamco or some other place that looked at or repaired the trans dropped a ball and instead of finding it just grabed another one from the "spare parts" tray.

As far as the plastic bits go, I'm going to check out the wiring conduit first. A few posts up shows a couple pictures with a plastic part that is very similar in color and texture but cant be sure it's a match untill I look at it again. The ball and the plastic may have nothing in common. I will attempt to reconstruct the plastic bits in a day or two and then take new pix.

parts68
03-02-06, 11:26 PM
Took the pan off 95 rora and it has a similar(tho only 2 small pieces) beige plastic.
Mine setting code 94 so I took pan and pieces with valve body and solenoids to a friend thats a tranny expert.
He said its a thrust washer,deep inside tranny $.50 part with $2K labor

zonie77
03-03-06, 12:12 AM
The ball could be from a solenoid but you say they are good. Possibly AMMCO replaced one of the solenoids? It's a couple hour job so they should have charged you.

You're still back to replacing the solenoids to see of that fixes it or rebuilding/replacing trans.

scorpio
03-04-06, 09:04 AM
AAMCO did not replace the solenoids. Supposedly all they did was drop the pan to diagnose the problem. The only thing they charged was some ATF, diagnostics were supposedly free.

parts68
03-05-06, 08:38 AM
scorpio,if you saved those pieces see if they can be assembled laying flat into a circle like a thrust washer would be.

zonie77
03-11-06, 03:25 PM
Scorpio, ditto on parts68 question.

blunted
03-13-06, 01:04 PM
Just replace the solenoids, it can't hurt and you get to inspect the valve body in the process. Also, try to drain as much of that ATF as possible.. you dont want any plastic crap floating around.
I'm prayin for u, cause I know I almost crapped myself when I found about 2 quarters worth of debris in my pan.

Zorb750
03-14-06, 04:11 AM
Heck, put a replacement valve body on it, from a junk yard or something. Then again trans parts are hard to come by at junk yards... I'd tear apart the thing and rebuild the valve body, or the replacement, then swap it. A junk yard trans will probably be $500.

onegabite1
09-23-08, 05:36 PM
I am having a simular problem, code 29, I replaced the solenoids and installed the bracket. When I first pulled the pan down, there was that same ball. and a piece of gasket, looks like possibly an accumulator gasket. I don't know. well, I figured out if I'm doing over 40, and clear the po29 the car will go into 3rd and 4th till i get below 30 again. I have been driving the car like this for a month. I pulled the VB down again. This time there was a pile of what looked loke clutch material. Now I am getting codes 29 and 94. when i'm crusing about 75 the cel comes on, trans goes into neutral unless i tach it up to about 4500 rpm. The trans is defaulting into second. the code is 94. I clear the code take off go to 40 the cel comes on, I clear the code 29 and then it shifts into 3rd and 4th again. I think I'm going to put a valve body in it. I really need to know where that check ball came from and that piece of gasket. I know it is gasket material. I have rebuilt abot 20 4L60e's. I never did a 4t80e. So i do have a slight clue as to what is going on. please help!

Submariner409
09-23-08, 07:17 PM
Man, that's one way to resurrect a 2 1/2 year old thread !!!

My guess is that it's time to lower the transmission end of the cradle and do a complete overhaul. Clutch/friction material and probably bright shavings in the pan is never good.

Rebuild it. (You're not alone...there are several threads about 4T80E work over the past 2 years........do some homework.)

There's not much else to be said.....PITA, but dig in. :hide:

codewize
09-30-08, 04:12 PM
Yeah, that's what my guy said when he pulled mine apart.


I don't know what it is, but it can;t be good. I'm surprised it still ran.

onegabite1
09-30-08, 10:47 PM
Well, I found a valve body for $70. I will install it when it gets here. now I have noticed that once the code 29 sets, I clear the code and leave it in diag mode, the cars shifts normally from 1st to 2nd the to 3rd at 3500 rpm and 4 normally. Every once in a while while crusing on the highway it will kick out of drive, go to neutral then right back into drive. I'm very concerned about the clutch material i saw by the scavenge pickups. I have dropped the pan since I saw it the first time and this time the pan was clean. something weird now is happening, on occasion when I start the car it seem to go into PCM reset. I get code 52,and 80. I checked the ground from the battery to the alt bracket, it is clean and tight. (new Battery) had to replace the alt when I first got the car. I also check the grounds on the bottom rear of the engine block, clean and tight. I was wondering where the ECM groud is? I'm familliar with the 4.9 not this brownstar engine. I'll replace the Valve body and check the ecm grounds (once I find out where they are). BTW the valva body i found is from a 94 $t80e no stamp on it, from an olds. I think it souuld be the same thing. I'll be posting again i'm sure, I just love my 40 mile commute wondering whats gonna go wrong next! I'll never give up my crapillac!

onegabite1
10-09-08, 08:26 AM
I replaced the valve body, problem solved. Shifts like butter and I can finally drive it like i stole it!

thu
10-11-08, 12:01 AM
Glad to hear! Now, have fun on your commutes to work!

prosin
11-08-08, 05:06 PM
I just dropped my pan - got the same pics as you but what confuses me is whether or not I need a new(used) valve body or if I can simply drop my valve body and thoroughly clean it. I replaced shift solenoids 6 months ago and its been acting normal - I will say there is NO CHECK BALL in my pan though.........after putting the car in drive it loses pressure and falls out of drive.....

onegabite1
11-08-08, 08:01 PM
I highly suggest you change the valve body. I worked at a caddy dealer years ago and still have alot of friends there. Thay all say the 4T80E is a bulletproof trans except for the valve body. I must of had my valve body down 5 times before I finally replaced it. THe car has been fine now for a while. I wish I would have done it sooner. I didn't want to spend alot of money on the valve body in case that was not the problem. I found someone on ebay that had a parts car and I bought the valve body with shipping cost for $70.00. Money well spent. If I were you I would try the valve body asap. Actually the one I got was from an Olds. just note that there are 2 different ones one has a stamp code on it and the other does not. Mine did not have the code. I believe I found out about the stamp code when I was shopping for a reconditioned VB. I also added the Lucas Trans additive. It's great stuff. I have to say my problem was code 29 and would go into limp mode. You may have another issue. Good luck

"I'll never give up my Crappilac"

capnfred
02-09-09, 11:21 PM
did you ever figure out what the plastic was, I have the same problem, shifts 1-2 then no further, I also had a pile of crap in the pan, some plastic,,,,, for the record the balls in the solenioids are tiny, smaller than a bb, where that checkball came from is a mystery.......I have not tried resetting the codes while driving.... will try that tomrrow. I have taken the entire valve body out, I am wondering what goes wrong, its castings, machined valves, and checkballs..... when you say that you bought a valvebody did that include the steel gasket plate, and the accumulators..... thanks

Capn

onegabite1
02-10-09, 04:04 PM
Yes it included the steel plate, accu's ....was complete. I have a new problem now. My front pump is noisy and after about 14 miles she starts going in and out of TCC, then 3rd starts going in and out. I'm like totally sure it is a pressure problem. I have not put a guage on it. The pump is screaming like PS pump. I did drop the pan a few days ago hoping to find a clogged screen. it was clean. I guess I'll be getting rid of the car. I hate to say it but i'm goin jap next time. I't like a game, what new will happen today with this krappillac.

tateos
02-11-09, 11:58 AM
Have you thought about a rebuilt trans?

onegabite1
02-11-09, 01:10 PM
I have thought about a reman, I found a place for about $1000 with shipping, I dont have the facilities anymore, or the back, to install it my self. I figure I'll sell the car for $1500 OBO and put that $ towards a Honda Accord. yeah< I know, like comparing apples and oranges. But I'll do a timingbelt and water pump on a honda and be good for another 90k miles.

STSS
02-11-09, 06:20 PM
I have thought about a reman, I found a place for about $1000 with shipping, I dont have the facilities anymore, or the back, to install it my self. I figure I'll sell the car for $1500 OBO and put that $ towards a Honda Accord. yeah< I know, like comparing apples and oranges. But I'll do a timingbelt and water pump on a honda and be good for another 90k miles.

Have fun with your honda... I hope I end up next to you at a light... F*gg*t

FU anyway with your "krappillac" BS... Its a caddy, not a honda, its not gonna cost $5 to fix.

Learn to maintain your vehicles... you found crap in the pan when you dropped it and you ignored it.. are you really surprised you had problems later on? Thats just ignorant.

Go buy your honda and have fun... maybe you should look into a beetle... they seem to be a good choice for caddy owners who dont want to fix their car.

onegabite1
02-11-09, 07:01 PM
yo, I am a retired mechanic. I work at caddy for 5 yrs. Chevy for 10 and Pontiac for another 5. I forgot more then most know. No I was not suprised the trans is failing. Keep your scarcastic remarks to yourself. This is not the venue for that. I have helped a quite a few out in here. Grow up Jr.

STSS
02-11-09, 07:46 PM
YO... you started with the BS remarks... no one on a caddy site wants to hear your sh*t about hondas.... if we wanted a honda we would have gotten a honda... we got caddys for a reason... go to the honda forums if you want to bash caddys.

besides, who have you helped... your only advice is to swap out the VB... even though no diagnostics go with this, and you give this advice to someone who has a different problem (no ball in pan) than you did.

"I'll never give up my Crappilac"
Please do! You dont deserve to drive a caddy... or even own a non-driving one!

onegabite1
02-12-09, 12:36 PM
wanna buy an SLS?

tateos
02-12-09, 02:16 PM
Yeah - to buy a Honda is something like 180 degrees from a Cadillac, so I guess you may offend some here - "krappillac hit a nerve, but it only means "you are not our kind of people"

onegabite1
02-13-09, 10:42 AM
I appoligize if I offended anyone.

tateos
02-16-09, 01:49 PM
Didn't offend me - I wish you the best of luck