: I think i got this Traction Control thing figured out!



fubar569
02-23-06, 12:20 AM
so taking cues from eldorado1 and mark99sts...i believe i've got the relay system figured out.

mark99sts stated his buddy wired up a relay system so he has the ability to switch between normal mode and TC disabled which will still allow the transmission to start in first gear.

eldorado1 stated that taking one wheel sensor and feeding it to the 4 inputs would effectively disable it as the ECM would see all 4 tires spinning at the same rate all the time...

taking both pieces of the puzzle i came up with this:

well, it took about 1 hour and a few drinks but i gots the schematics drawn up (very crude, no wire codes, just chickenscratch basically) as to how this can be done. requires 5 bosch type 5 post relays and one switch. it's either in factory stock mode or TC disabled.

first, four of the relays need to be wired in-line to the 4 wheel sensor inputs on the ecm or whatever using the normally closed terminals. the 5th relay will take one of those wheel sensor signals split before the NC relays and this will be run to the normally open terminals. from this 5th relay it splits 4 ways and rejoins the wires ahead of the NC relays. the power can be run through 1 switch to the 5 relays.

in the off position, the 4 sensor relays are closed and provide normal TC functions.

in the on position, the sensor relays cut the signal and the 5th relay is powered on sending the signal from that one sensor to the 4 inputs on the ecm/whatever effectively disabling TC and the ecm sees all tires as spinning at the same rate no matter what happens. the transmission will also start in first gear as opposed to 2nd.

does all of this sound correct you guys? or am i smoking crack?

eldorado1
02-23-06, 12:01 PM
I have no idea what you just said. :D

I guess I'm more of a picture person. Keep in mind that by doing this, you're going to be disabling the ABS as well, so I wouldn't turn it off if you're driving through any gravely construction zones, or during rainstorms.

fubar569
02-23-06, 01:14 PM
here's a "i just woke up at 1pm after staying up till 6am doing whatever" drawing of what i think i tried to say...lol

http://mysite.verizon.net/fubar569/TC.JPG

CadillacSTS42005
02-23-06, 01:22 PM
very crude and i have no idea even with the pic what ur getting at im hoping like i asked that mark99sts will get back to me on how his buddy rigged the switch up.

fubar569
02-23-06, 01:39 PM
it would be much easier to explain in person.

basically all the switch does is activate the 5 relays.

4 are inline with each sensor signal line. these are normally closed (no power = closed circuit = normal operation)

1 takes a splice from one wheel sensor before the other relays and routes it to the four PCM inputs. this relay is normally open (no power = open circuit)

when that switch is flipped thereby energizing the relays. the 4 inline relays cut the sensors connection to the PCM because when energized they go open, breaking the circuit

the 5th relay when energized closes and completes the circuit by routing that one sensor's signal to the 4 PCM inputs. this all happens in a fraction of a second and should (theoretically) happen seamlessly to the ECM meaning no codes or things like that.

i think that was a little easier...maybe

danbuc
02-23-06, 01:56 PM
If all four relays are DPDT, then you should be able to just use four. Looking at your drawing, it looks liek you plan to split off of the 1 sensor. Instead of running that signal through a 5th relay and then splicing off it into four sets of wires again, you can run the main wire into the NC contact on the first relay, and then run four seperate splices off to each NO contact on all four relays. It will save you some wiring, and will still work the same. When you hit the switch, the relays will then be recieving input from that one sensor, insetead of running that signal through the 5th relay. Looks like a good plan to me. Where were you thinking about moutning the switch? I was considering placing it in the little ashtray door at the base of the center console under the radio (not sure if your layout is the same though). I was working on a setup just like that, and was also thinking about adding a 12v LED in series with the switch, that way when you turn the switch on, the LED would light up too. You wouldn't have to worry about remembering whether it was on or off. ANyway...good luck with the project, let us know when if you get it all hooked up.:thumbsup:

fubar569
02-23-06, 02:42 PM
ah...i see what you mean...that would make it a bit cleaner with only 4...

this was a 6am (thereabouts) brainstorm after talking it over with my dad. i think it'll work very well. i'll have to go to radioshack and look at someDPDT relays so i can dream up the new drawing in my head...

i plan on doing this very soon after the exhaust. i want it to be nice & warm so i'm ntoi crawling around underneath the car in 20 degree weather.

theoretically it should work very well. the LED is also a good idea, or one could just use a lighted rocker switch or something of that nature. i know one things for sure...the switch will either be well hidden or under lock & key. no one needs to flip it by accident on me or something.

eldorado1
02-23-06, 03:03 PM
Looks ok. I can't find my service manual with the ABS stuff in it, but I think polarity may be a key issue as to whether this works first try or not. Just match the color codes, like for like.

fubar569
02-23-06, 03:11 PM
well i'm not sure wether polarity would be an issue...all the relays are doing is re-routing the path per your suggestion of 1 sensor to 4 inputs. what polarity that signal has is inconsequential as far as i can tell...unless the PCM expects different polarity from different sets of wheels or something. in that case it sure could come into play.

in other news i think i might need to invest in the shop manual for my car, just in case. don't think i want to get any wires crossed with this one, unless someone wants to forward me pictures of the diagrams for the ABS/TC systems and the color codes.

I'm thinking if this works first shot, it could be pretty big. mark99sts already has something very similar on his car and it works just fine. i'm just laying out the plans that i *think* his buddy followed in wiring that up.

eldorado1
02-23-06, 03:13 PM
Well I guess that makes me ask the question if the wheel sensors have 2 wires or not? I thought they did?

eldorado1
02-23-06, 03:32 PM
If it has 2 wires, this is what you should do... You can do it with 3 12 volt DPDT relays and a switch. It's not a whole lot different. The first wheel sensor doesn't need a relay, because you'd be switching it to itself.

Hopefully it makes sense. Pins 1 and 2 of the relays are the coil. Power there makes them switch. Pin 6 can switch between NC pin 8 and NO pin 7. Pin 3 can switch between NC pin 4 and NO pin 5.

http://i1.tinypic.com/ofu2ol.jpg

fubar569
02-23-06, 03:32 PM
examining pic now...

yes...this is much cleaner. 3 relays and i understand exactly how you have this wired. you only need to fool 3 inputs as opposed to all 4. mine had 2 unessesary relays. the 1st sensor to normally open terminals and the regular sensor wires to normally closed.

i think i got it!

anyone ever tell you you are the man?

96-deville-man
02-23-06, 03:44 PM
Im pretty sure i get this and im willing to try it on my caddy but i really dont have much experinice with relays and would perfer not to break anything. I could probably pull this off it will just take me awhile because of the inexperince.
It would be cool to spin 20`s

96-deville-man
02-23-06, 03:48 PM
If im looking at this right that would be useing 8prong relays and ive never seen ones with more than 4.

eldorado1
02-23-06, 05:05 PM
If im looking at this right that would be useing 8prong relays and ive never seen ones with more than 4.

Radioshack has them..
http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2062483&cp=&kw=relay&parentPage=search

danbuc
02-23-06, 06:25 PM
eldorado1's diagram (which is pretty damn good I might add) is umaking use of three Double Pole Double Throw relay. The have two Normally Closed contacs (Regular sensor circuit), two Normally Open contacts (swithc on, bypass circuit, and two Common contacts (output shared by both inputs).

fubar569
02-23-06, 06:53 PM
i'm at radio shack right now. that's part number 275-249, a PC DPDT relay

also i was thinking about part number 275-218 which has the following stats:

-40 to 158 degrees F
max power 1.08w
nominal coil voltage 12v
nominal coil current 75mA
coil resistance 160ohm +/- 10%
pull in 9.6v
drop out 1.2v
contacts rated at 10A
minimum load 100mA/5v DC

they are priced at 8.39 so they are a little more cash. i doubt anything would even remotely come close to pulling 5A let alone 10A...

the only outward benefit to this one is you can use push on blade connectors instead of soldering all connections.

Which one would you use? i'm guessing either would be good.

they also have the socket for said relay which would be nice if anyone wanted to do a circuit board and just drop them in.

eldorado1
02-23-06, 07:06 PM
I'd use the ones you mentioned. Easier connections are good. Only 3 bucks more would make it worth it.

0to60n4.5
02-23-06, 07:11 PM
When I saw the crude drawing I figured I'd post the flaw in the jumpering of the inputs on the right side of the relay wouldn't work, as they are tied together all the time. And would have suggested using 2 pole relays to jumper them on the left.

Then I read further down and seen that danbuc seemed to be all over the cure , and then Eldo1's awesome schematic sealed the deal.

As long as the inputs to the computer don't have a problem with a possible voltage drop or different resistance value ( I don't know what form the signal is produced ), then it looks like it will work.

Let us know how it works when completed.

fubar569
02-23-06, 07:21 PM
i'm thinking they would be a better option as well...i'm almost thinking of laying out a circuit board at some point for this with socketed relays and soldered connections and locate it inside the passenger compartment for easy access for maintenence if needed. the ultimate would be a way to figure out how to make it plug & play with only needing a switched 12v source to trigger the box...

eldorado1
02-23-06, 07:51 PM
As long as the inputs to the computer don't have a problem with a possible voltage drop or different resistance value ( I don't know what form the signal is produced ), then it looks like it will work.

I believe the sensors work with a form of reluctor and magnetic pickup, like the VSS. At speed they'll probably produce about 70 volts AC. As long as the signal is above a couple volts it will be detected. Anything over that gets clipped anyways....

parts68
02-23-06, 08:18 PM
actually WSS output is in MV.
maybe you could do all this by producing
a signal of 100MV and splitting it off
Our GTP and Aurora has a traction control off
button,will have to look into that.

fubar569
02-24-06, 02:47 AM
well, the trac off button does disable it, but defaults the transmission to a 2nd gear start.

generating said signal would be more complicated yet i'd assume than the relay setup we're thinking about. you'd have to still use relays to cut the signal...not only that, but from that 12v feed you'd have to step it down to said mV then feel it back into the sensor inputs. doesn't sound fun...though i suppose it would work just the same by making all 4 inputs read the same thing.

i'm going to take the diagram and see if i can work out a custom PCB with plug in relays all in a nice enclosure. i'll probably do it the ghetto way first just to verify the idea works.

oh, eldorado...we'll see about the TB in 7 days. depending on how big the cellphone bill is...i might plop down the cash for one. it's really a tossup though as wether to do the TB or full exhaust first. exhaust would be more gains, TB would help eventually...so i dunno.

96-deville-man
02-24-06, 02:59 AM
Let me know how that comes along with the new setup.
If it works could you write up a tuturial to make it?
you should make a name for it like the traction killer or something.

About your exhaust were you meaning headers back or cat back?
I have my custom flowmaster setup i probably gained 10hp maybe alittle more plus the nice sound.
How much is the exhaust you were looking at it might be cheaper to just go to a local muffler shop and have them run a new system from the cat back. the local shop here said $229 to just replace stock with flowmasters. maybe then you could save enough to get both and feel a 20hp gain over stock with just air filter tb and mufflers.
I would really like to get the tb and spacer but with the hubs needing to be done that really calls for the money first. My mom owes me some money and after the hubs im not sure how much ill have but if i have enough ill be buying a tb also.

fubar569
02-24-06, 03:12 AM
i have a friend that will do a full 3" from as far up as i want to go all the way out the back with mufflers i provide for about 300 bucks...i thought that was pretty respectable.

i'm gonna try to find out how that crossover pipe is routed and how the manifolds are setup. i also have an uncle with a lift and a full set of everything i'd need. i'm thinking pull a manifold to get a template made up and another buddy CNC a set of flanges and try to have some fun learning how to weld.

as far as getting the whole project for the TC stuffed into a box...i'm formulating ideas. somethig along the lines of having all the leads protrude from the box with a set length of wire and some instructions on how to tap into the lines. something similar to how my Super AFC was wired in my talon. kinda like Cut this line, attach sensor side to blue wire and pcm side to blue/white wire...blah blah blah. i think people could handle that. a true plug & play solution would require me to pretty much construct an entire pigtail at the pcm that would plug between it and the vehicle harness that would have all the leads ready to go. too much effort & time for me...lol

96-deville-man
02-24-06, 03:34 AM
A splice in box is cool with me. I wouldnt even have a problem with making it my self.

thats pretty good a pretty good deal since i was looking at like 5 to $700 for a header back system. As for headers what year car is yours? if you make a set the keep the egr and can make a second set at a reasonable price i would aslo be intrested in a sec. I plan on haveing a set made within 8 months or so. But im gonna have a 3 1/2 system made because i plan on a custom supercharge. My stock pipeing is 3inch i belive let me go look.

Oh and were are you located?

96-deville-man
02-24-06, 03:40 AM
Nope 2 1/2 just looks bigger. I might drop my whole system tomarrow just to punch out the resantor to get alittle more flow for now.

MARK99STS
02-24-06, 09:18 AM
I believe the sensors work with a form of reluctor and magnetic pickup, like the VSS. At speed they'll probably produce about 70 volts AC. As long as the signal is above a couple volts it will be detected. Anything over that gets clipped anyways....

I do know that the computer needs to see 1000 ohm resistance at the sensor. I don't know if tying all four together will accomplish that. I have a call into the guy who set mine up to get some more specifics. I'll post back when I here from him.

MARK99STS
02-24-06, 10:18 AM
Ok,
I talked to the guy who did mine and he used 4 dbl pole, dbl throw relays with 4 seperate resistors. Basically 1 relay and resistor setup for each wheel. He tapped each wheel sensor wire comming out of the ABS unit. He put the whole setup on a circuit board and mounted it under the dash with a switched 12 volt supply. My switch is just under the hood release.

fubar569
02-24-06, 10:43 AM
so instead of running one sensor to all four inputs, he basically just used the NO contacts and coonected the resistor across those 2 points so when you hit the switch the system sees the resistors instead of the sensor. this makes it even cleaner yet...

i'll have to get to work on this soon...before my money runs out...

thanks for putting in the phone call mark, i really appreciate it!

MARK99STS
02-24-06, 11:56 AM
so instead of running one sensor to all four inputs, he basically just used the NO contacts and coonected the resistor across those 2 points so when you hit the switch the system sees the resistors instead of the sensor. this makes it even cleaner yet...

i'll have to get to work on this soon...before my money runs out...

thanks for putting in the phone call mark, i really appreciate it!


You got it!

eldorado1
02-24-06, 12:46 PM
I don't see how you won't set a code with that setup. It would see the tailshaft sensor moving, but none of the wheels moving.

MARK99STS
02-24-06, 01:05 PM
I don't see how you won't set a code with that setup. It would see the tailshaft sensor moving, but none of the wheels moving.
The tailshaft has nothing to do with it as I had mentioned before, to test it we just unplugged the sensor at each wheel and plugged in a 1000ohm resistor in each plug and it worked without throwing any codes. Apparently the wheel sensors are what everything is based on because when we did that it has no ABS,no traction control, and no stabilitrak. When you go around a ramp fast and the G's pickup, it will say "service stability system" on the dash, which you just push and it goes away, other than that there are no issues.

CadillacSTS42005
02-24-06, 09:11 PM
Ok,
I talked to the guy who did mine and he used 4 dbl pole, dbl throw relays with 4 seperate resistors. Basically 1 relay and resistor setup for each wheel. He tapped each wheel sensor wire comming out of the ABS unit. He put the whole setup on a circuit board and mounted it under the dash with a switched 12 volt supply. My switch is just under the hood release.

huh???? sorry i really wanna do this but im not understanding what all that means any possibility you can explain it a lil more and maybe take some pics of your set up? whats a dbl pole? how did he wire it all up? etc etc etc

fubar569
02-24-06, 10:32 PM
see the pic on the first page...but instead of using 3 relays you'll use 4, and on the normally open contacts there will be a resistor...on the normally closed contacts will be the orig sensor wires...

i'm working on a circuit board design the should only require you tap into the sensor lines and run a switched 12v source and ground. the rest would be inside the box.

fubar569
02-25-06, 08:14 PM
well i have the board layed out on paper right now. 5 DPDT relays...4 for the wheel sensors/resistors and a 5th one. one side of the 5th will break the connection over the wire on the trans connector to default it to max pressure and the other side will be used to activate a light when the box itself is active or has power.

i figured the only time i'd want to bump the line pressure would be at the time i have TC disabled which would be at the dragstrip, so i made it all part of the same unit. the indicator light was a talked about option so i added leads for that as well.

as of now all anyone would have to do is cut the wires for the sensors going to the ABS unit and attach the leads to the wires. to use the transmission portion just cut said wire and connect the leads from the box. the light or LED will be totally modular and can be mounted anywhere. all you'd have to do is again hook the leads from the box to the LED/light.

actually, if you anted to switch something off when this box is on, connect the power wire through the leads for the transmission portion. that set of leads will default to open when the box is activated thereby cutting power to the device attached. likewise if you didn't need an indicator light, wire those leads to soemthing else you wanted activated while this unit is on. one wire will be power and ground. the ground is already connected to the Box's ground wire so just hook red & black to red & black & go per se.

i don't have a total cost yet, as i gotta go to my local radio shack and stock up on parts. if i made a few, would anyone be interested if mine worked 100% ?

96-deville-man
02-25-06, 08:53 PM
Im intrested in one. i need to make sure i hooked the tranny line to the right spot im pretty sure i did. Hopefully there not to expensive.

fubar569
02-25-06, 09:02 PM
eh...shouldn't be...anyone's capable of making them...heck we have the blueprints right out in the open for anyone that wants to try. the relays about about 6 bucks a crack, the enclosure prolly 5, and the pc boards and misc wire plus 4 resistors and a LED...i'll let you all know tomorrow what comes up...

the only thing i was thinking of doing different was depending on where i mount my box, including that length of wire plus a couple feet for each lead so anyone can just snip & go instead of running all the lines yourself...it would essentially be a "harness" a few feet in length...instead of just 6 to 12"

96-deville-man
02-25-06, 09:12 PM
I say you find some kind of connector from radio shack and just put that on it like an inch off the box then let the people make the other side of it.

fubar569
02-25-06, 09:18 PM
having people make thier own pigtail would potentially be disaster waiting. if they don't run the right wires to the right pins then it won't work. i could do both sides of the connector with short leads and then people would have to run thir own wires but this would make it modular. could be an interesting thing to try...

check that...i could do both sides, makign a full harness. also included would be a connector that in the event of failure of the box could be connected in it's place to return the car to stock operation for the time being till the box could be fixed by either the buyer or myself or anyone capable...now that sounds lke something nifty to add.

96-deville-man
02-25-06, 09:34 PM
yea that would be aswome you could use some connetors like this http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2104009&cp=2032058.2032231.2032286&parentPage=family

fubar569
02-25-06, 11:14 PM
http://www.action-electronics.com/molex.htm

found someone with a 16pin molex connector that would make things tons easier since there would be 16 wires going to the ABS module. one connector for the TC and one 4 pin for the trans/light...

96-deville-man
02-25-06, 11:41 PM
thats cool to you know what you need so ill let you figure it out and throw in my oppions to help.

Aurora By Olds
02-26-06, 11:36 AM
I have found out that if youre looking for just a short run, what you can do is simply "two-foot" it, or press the brake just enough to activate the brake switch. Do this with the traction switch "on" and it will disable both the ABS and engine management portions of the traction control. Also, it will still start in 1st gear. I found that works on my '95 Aurora, so I tried it last night on a buddy's '97 Bonneville, and also a '00 Deville. Each car spun the tires (on snow) until they hit the top speed limiter. Kind of a cool discovery. The only problem is you have to be tricky with the brake, and you also have your brake lights on. Still good for a quick race though.

fubar569
02-26-06, 01:22 PM
for a quick launch that's probably good, but say i get antsy and crack a 100 shot open? i don't think i'm gonna be able to trip the pedals fast enough at whatever mph to accomplish that feat. it should be easier just to flick one switch.

i'm heading to radio shack to tally the cost right now. i dunno if i'll have enough to buy it all but i should have enough to get me started

Aurora By Olds
02-26-06, 04:46 PM
Well, I guess technically you could splice a toggle switch in with the brake switch. Would be somewhat ghetto, but an easy fix at that.

fubar569
02-26-06, 05:37 PM
that could be a very simple idea, but would it theoreticaly throw any codes or would TC still be active at higher speeds and/or loads?

so far i have $22.03 invested. that's for the etching kit (does 2 boads) and 1 of the 5 required relays. the enclosure and other relays will be in later this week.

MrEr1c
02-26-06, 08:10 PM
so what happened with the non-circuit board idea? did you all just figure it would be eaier with a circuit board involved?

i am very interested in this and would possibly even consider buying one from one of you if you make it and would be willing to sell me one.

Good luck.

fubar569
02-26-06, 09:17 PM
well the non circuit baord idea is doable, but trying to find a place to securely mount 5 relays in the engine compartment...well...i'd be better served to take a civic and try to make it fast...it's just a PITA...you'd have to cut the wires anyways, and not only that but like i said..mounting would be an issue, and imagien that wire mess under the hood...not fun

the circuit board idea will let you mount the "box" anywhere within the car and it will be modular for service needs (i.e. should one fail, unplug the 2 connectors and remove box - insert temp jumper plug for normal operation). i decided to go with relays that will have to be soldered into the board. should they cease to function anyone with a soldering iron and a suction device will be able to remove them. i'm looking at including about a 4-6' harness so you'll have plenty of mounting options. all you'd have to do is splice into the appropriate wires on the ABS unit harness, run a switched 12v source and a ground and you're set to go.

right now it's looking like the total cost per unit will be around 50 bucks in parts including connectors & wiring and things like that...i don't have an exact total since the first one isn't finished yet and the cost for mine will be higher anyways since i have to invst in some tools & supplies & things i didn't have to start. those WILL NOT be passed on into the other units that may be made. only cost of parts plus a marginal markup for my initial labor which shouldn't be too bad - i'm not in it for extreme profit...

i will keep a running cost list/estimate in this thread for now and also an ETA which will depend on a few things, but right now the first unit should be finished next weekend and redy for installation, so figure 5-7 days out...

96-deville-man
02-26-06, 10:30 PM
That sounds great let me know when its done.

fubar569
02-27-06, 03:38 AM
first board's in the etching tank right now so we'll see how it comes out. all if the traces & major work will actually be on the bottom of the board and the only things on the top will be the physical relays and and wires routed from underneath for the connectors.

add to the cost list 2.09 for carbon paper at walmart.

i only have 25 bucks to my name till wednesday/friday. i spent too much on eating out this week. i should have the parts in 5-7 and hopefully everything wrapped up by next monday. so far i can say this is a pretty labor intensive thing with the most nerve racking part tracing the circuit on the copper. first time through i missed 3 lines but caught them on the 2nd pass! :thepan:

96-deville-man
02-27-06, 03:47 AM
wow so your actualy making a board to fit thats really aswome i wish i knew how to do that. you should take some pics of it in the making. I should have beable to buy one. Do you have the trany mod done to your car? because i noticed there were some weird noises comming from the tranny on with it on and it worries me that its stressing my pump out. How hard would it be for you to make it with just the no traction control ?

fubar569
02-27-06, 05:31 AM
all you have to do is not hook up the two wires...but to make one without the 5th relay (strictly TC only) would shave about 6 bucks off the price of parts...

well the first board didn't come out so well...this etching thing...bah...lol...makes me wanna drink. centerpunching 20 holes isn't fun either, but since i trashed the first board i used it for practice. i'm catching on pretty fast. i also found a drill bit smaller than the 1/16th included in the kit so that's gonna help out some. also, the holes don't take very long with a dremel at 20k rpm's :) - makes it nice & clean.

EDIT: 1st actual board ready for parts! not too bad for only my 2nd etching, but i think i have everything laid out pretty well. for those keeping track there are 62 holes that were drilled. that's alot of dremel work...lol...but yeah i'm pretty satisfied with the first piece and i only know it'll be much better from here on out.

http://mysite.verizon.net/fubar569/board1.jpg

96-deville-man
02-27-06, 09:26 AM
looks goog. thats what i was meaning if it would be easeir for you just to skip those then do so on mine but ill let you know when i got the money so your not just sitting on it.

Dooman
02-27-06, 12:45 PM
Huh.... I thought it would have been simpler to do some sort of manual shift on the tranny than this route... Amazing !

DaveSmed
02-28-06, 03:57 PM
Nice design!!! I'm kinda bummed that I just spotted this thread.

One detail though, It might be wiser to base the single sensor signal from a REAR wheel speed sender, to eliminate the possibility of the computer freaking with an abnormal acceleration rate. (Burnout)

Eldorado1, Nice diagram! What program made that?
As far as the output speed sensor ("tailshaft speed sensor", I don't believe the EBTCM recieves input from that oddly enough, unless it sneaks in via Class2. I THINK the T/C switch is the only thing that comes over that though.

eldorado1
02-28-06, 04:46 PM
Eldorado1, Nice diagram! What program made that?
As far as the output speed sensor ("tailshaft speed sensor", I don't believe the EBTCM recieves input from that oddly enough, unless it sneaks in via Class2. I THINK the T/C switch is the only thing that comes over that though.

Interesting... should be a go then. I drew that with Orcad Capture. Multi-thousand dollar software though, one of the perks of being an engineering student. :thumbsup:

fubar569
02-28-06, 04:52 PM
well, we thought of going with one wheel sensor to four inputs per eldorado1, but mark also used just 4 1,000 ohm resistors (one in each sensor plug) and it worked. mark stated it did not throw any codes and disabled ABS, stabilitrak, and traction control. his friend did up a relay system similar to this but it was a one time deal for mark. i'm looking at possibly makign a few for forum members if mine works 100% without issue.

by board could be adapted to go either way (eldorado1 or mark99sts's route) but first up is mark99sts. he states that the control module must see 1,000ohm resistance at each input. i'm not sure if one sensor to 4 inputs would provide that. it should though, so i suppose either way will work.

eldorado1's plan also allows for a lower cost unit should it work. i may test both methods to verify that they work and then dcide which route to take with production.

fubar569
02-28-06, 06:30 PM
after seaching on this forum i see danbuc tried the 4 resistor method and he threw a bunch of codes. i checked his wirign over and basically it's the same as my layout so i'm not so sure on this one.

theoretically if you have one source that is 1k ohms...even if you split the signal 4 ways to 4 inputs, each input would still see 1k ohms...think of it this way, you'd just be sampling the signal at 4 different points at the same time. techncially all 4 ponts should read 1k ohms.

the kicker of it all was mark99sts had zero troubles with the 4 resistors, danbuc threw codes. hs anyone else tried 4 resistors with no trouble?

fubar569
02-28-06, 07:32 PM
check that...danbuc only had one of the 4 circuits wired up... that's why he threw the codes. i shall continue as planned and report my results

fubar569
03-01-06, 06:09 PM
Well, radio shack isn't exactly on the ball here. the enclosures are out of stock and so are the relays, but i DID get the 4 resistors soldered in along with the 1 relay they had...so far so good -

also, add 1.05 to cost list for 5 1k resistors

http://mysite.verizon.net/fubar569/board3.jpg

http://mysite.verizon.net/fubar569/board2.jpg

fubar569
03-02-06, 06:55 PM
i'm at radioshack right now and after doing a parts estimate i figure parts will come to 60 dollars after tax. this is for everything including wiring, switch, and LED indicator. The enclosure is 5x2.5x2" and should be small enough to allow for many mounting options. i plan on using shielded parallel cable for the "harness" and it should be plenty. the cable will plug in and screw down using the 25pin end and the other end will be bare leads which you will have to splice in according to diagram. The power, ground, and LED will be on seperate 2 pin connectors. everything will be splice, mount, & go. Some parts are being ordered online and as such have shipping charges. I figure after the labor & testing involved they would be about 100 dollars each per unit plus shipping. Does this sound fair to everyone?

96-deville-man
03-02-06, 07:18 PM
that sounds fair to me. but im not going to be able to buy one as of now because of the fuel pump issue im having.

fubar569
03-02-06, 08:42 PM
well i pulled a truly doh move...after i decided on the final project dimensions, i remembered my own was drawn on a much larger board. so i would up having to whack a little bit off to get it to fit. 2 leads might have to be moved but i'm unsure yet. we'll see...no big deal

Odin8
03-02-06, 10:18 PM
Keep trucking dude, I'm interested, and good job with the progress so far. I'd like to see this in action and get one myself sometime.

WoodShoe
03-04-06, 10:29 AM
Nice Job. I tried the girly foot technique (gas/brake) Doesnt work 2 well :P Do u have the wiring diagram 4 the ABS harness?

fubar569
03-04-06, 12:34 PM
speaking of which...anyone have a pinout/color code or picture of that ABS harness? my manual has temporarily disappeared

fubar569
03-05-06, 07:07 PM
ok update!

new parts today:

male & female solder connectors (DB25) - 2x 1.89
shielded hood for DB25 - 2.49
1 12ft parallel cable on clearance! - 9.97
project enclosure - 3.69

--------------

also, the new project enclosure nesessitated a complete redesign to fit within the packaging constraints. board has been drawn out but not etched yet.

-------------

the parallel cable seems like it would be a good choice. double shielded from interference and it's 28 gauge wire. since there are 36 conductors i'm thinking of actually using twisted pairs to carry the signals to and from. they are actually twisted within the cable already which is sweet. 2 pairs and 16 connections required = 32 wires and that leaves 4 left over. twisting the pairs will also help to cancel out interference so it should be nice and clean. i think my orig. hopes of a 10ft harness may be too long. hell i forgot how long 10ft actually is. i stretched this out after trimming it down and by estimates i could mount the thing in the trunk! that's way too far.

---------------

i'm well on my way to having the harness done.the next board design will be set in the enclosure and hopefully wrapped up soon. i have to cut a hle on the box for the DB25 connection but no biggie. all in all it's progressing nicely.

ronbo
03-06-06, 12:37 AM
well, the trac off button does disable it, but defaults the transmission to a 2nd gear start.


BTW... Trac Ctrl OFF button in Aurora (mine='98) does not cause a 2nd gear start... nothing else is affected. Shame Cad. didn't do this, huh!

fubar569
03-06-06, 04:31 AM
now don't be taunting us...lol :tisk: :thumbsup:

CadillacSTS42005
03-06-06, 10:30 AM
BTW... Trac Ctrl OFF button in Aurora (mine='98) does not cause a 2nd gear start... nothing else is affected. Shame Cad. didn't do this, huh!

thats the same story for most GM cars Caddy is the only one. a kid i know has a pontiac grand prix and can smoke his tires till they bellow smoke cuz he still has 1st gear.

walterroc
03-06-06, 12:41 PM
I followed this thread trying to see why you would want to turn off traction control. My 98 Eldo has a traction off button in the glove box. I guess that's not the same thing.

fubar569
03-06-06, 12:50 PM
your eldorado would also default to a 2nd gear start if you hit that button

my reason? drag racing. i plan on putting a set of DR's on the front, running a full length exhaust, intake mods/TB, and a 100hp shot of giggle gas. i don't want this system slowing me down when i hit the button...

fubar569
03-08-06, 07:08 PM
Ok guys, it's nearly done.

I did a quick mockup for the photos. that's all the bigger she'll be, except there will be 4 other wires coming from the side of the box (2 for switched 12v and ground, and 2 for the LED). the parallel connection plan worked out perfect. I'm heading to radio shack in hopes they'll have the rest of my stuff in today.

enjoy!

http://mysite.verizon.net/fubar569/box6.jpg

http://mysite.verizon.net/fubar569/box5.jpg

http://mysite.verizon.net/fubar569/box4.jpg

CadillacSTS42005
03-08-06, 07:12 PM
i cant wait man!

fubar569
03-09-06, 04:08 AM
well it's 10 minutes to 5am this wonderful thursday morning, and no i haven't slept yet...BUT i did get alot accomplished...actually, aside from 3 relays which radio shack should have for me today, the unit AND wiring "harness" are FINISHED! that's right, not 3 weeks out, not "whoops sorry guys", it's FINISHED!! did i mention FINISHED!!! (i think the lack of sleep is making me act a little wierd)

I got the board etched, all holes cut & drilled, 16 twisted pairs of wires soldered into the board and external connector, the "harness" was cut and re-soldered to match the external connector, the other end cut back 2" or so for splicing into the sensor wires, everything's screwed in and ready to go!

P.S. solder cup DB25 connectors = best friend AND worst enemy...made this job easy yet a complete pain in the ass. i can't wait to give this thing a try.

and the obligatory teaser/progress pic:

http://mysite.verizon.net/fubar569/box7.jpg

that cable is actually double shielded and each connection is made using a twisted pair of 28awg wires. there should be zero interference in these lines. even the connections inside the unit are made from twisted pairs (abeit not shielded). the unit itself is plastic and will have a seperate ground for the electronics inside so no worries about where to place it inside the cabin. mount it to metal if you want it won't matter a bit.

i'm very happy to finally ACTUALLY be able to contribute something back. i've talked about many other projects but this is the first to come to life and actually be a "working" piece.

Special thanks to MARK99STS, danbuc, Eldorado1, MARK99STS's friend (whoever you are!), and everyone else that posted here contributing either technical assistance or well wishes. I couldn't have seen it through without you!

As soon as i can verify this unit works, i WILL be making them on a per customer per order basis. I'll keep you all posted as to when that will happen. Estimated price right now is $125 (materials, labor, instructions, limited support) plus applicable shipping charges. All you will have to do is run a switched 12v and ground, mount the LED (or lighted switch if you so choose), splice into the sensor wires, and enjoy! switch off = normal operation...switch on = NO t/c, ABS, Stabilitrak, or speed sensitive steering. Please exercise caution during use as any modification could damage your vehicle and increase the likelyhood of an accident or serious injury and/or death. i will not be held responsible for any or all of the above should they occur to you through the use of this product. due to the speed sensitive steering defaulting to max assist i suggest you only use this unit for OFF ROAD/ RACING only and not on a public highway unless you are 100% comfortable and confident in your ability to predict and control your vehicle.

once again thanks to everyone and i hope you've enjoyed the ride!

David Lipps

fubar569
03-09-06, 07:24 PM
radioshack did not have my relays, though they did order them and they are en route to my house...
other than that Im all done

MrEr1c
03-09-06, 09:30 PM
...WOW that looks pretty damn good. It looks actually very professional.

But $125 to turn your traction control off?

eldorado1
03-09-06, 09:33 PM
it's probably too late to mention this, but radioshack is ridiculously overpriced. Paying 20 cents for a resistor is highway robbery. You can get them for 5 cents. I bet you could cut your costs by 50+% if you bought your parts online from a supplier like jameco(.com) or digikey(.com)

fubar569
03-10-06, 12:38 PM
i'd have to look into that, though some places have minimum orders or charge outrageous shipping on only one or 2 pieces. i actually had to buy the parts over the course of 3 weeks cause of monetary reasons...

and you're right. i estimated it to be about 125 based on the sheer pain in the ass-ness of the first unit. there's alot of hours of planning alone, circuit layout and subsequent redesign because i wanted to give everyone as small of a footprint as possible. i bought some of the stuff twice since i screwed up the first time (whoops...lol).

digikey does have dirt cheap resistors, can't really find the same or suitable relay. i used radioshack part # 275-0249 which is a 12v 5A capable DPDT relay that mounts through the board and solders on the backside.

enclosures are also a little cheaper through them...about a buck off there for the closest size which isn't bad. damn near precut boards are about a buck cheaper, but then again i can get 3 prints off the other one...

all it amounts to is i'll have to break it down and do some more searching after work. i have to find enough of a price break to make up for the handling charge and then any shipping as well to justify it. i can't really buy in bulk cause then if i make 5 or 6 at a time and no one buys them, i'm stuck in a similar situation to you with the TB's eldorado1...alot invested with no recoup...

Since 125 seems to be a hard pill to swallow for most, since i have the hang of it now...if it means more will sell since i don't mind donating a little time...that and eldorado1 is right, with more searching i can cut costs especially if 2 or 3 come in at the same time...

$100 plus shipping - this is what they'll go for...if they sell, make you happy, get my name out there...it's all worth it in the end. besides, this started as a project to offer a reasonably priced service/unit, not make a killing...

it's not so much to "disable" traction control. anyone can disable it anytime they want by crawling underneath the car with a pack of resistors. but do you really wanna do that to disable it for a trip to the track or whatnot, then do it again to turn it back on, and repeat this for every event you're at? what about random street encounters or something? to me, a switch makes much more sense...and this you can do right from your drivers seat without ever getting out of the car.

fubar569
03-10-06, 05:50 PM
i managed to find a site that will provide just about everything (except the cable). eldorado1 was right, i can provide the units comfortably at 100 plus shipping without issue. that will be the final price. i might offer incentives or "promotions" or discounts once things get rolling.

if you would like one made, feel free to contact me at fubar569@verizon.net, cellphone (814)-331-1292, AIM sharkbodyvette, yahoo fubar569, msn fubar569@hotmail.com, icq 19050680. i take all of the above on the road on my pocket pc anyways so you should have no issues getting a hold of me. once the parts come in it should be about 24-48hrs to assemble and ship. my days off are wednesday and thursdays so that's when most all of the work will be done. doesn't mean i won't be doing these on other days, but i do work full time (40hrs a week, plus 1h commute each way). I will make every effort to set time aside the day the parts arrive to assemble your unit. i will make every effort to meet that 48hr window.

methods of payment: Paypal or money order only. i will weigh mine and know approxomite shipping costs soon so i will be able to offer a total when you contact me. when i place your parts order i will provide you with any tracking numbers that i recieve so that you may see when i recieve the parts and you know when assembly should begin so you can better anticipate arrival of your unit.

NOTE: - - mine has not been in the vehicle yet. i will be testing this module this week (wednesday & thursday). i will be taking orders after i verify that it works. i wanted to clear that one up. everything is set for launch, but i will not offer them for sale officialy untill i test this one on my own vehicle to verify the unit works as promised/designed. all part of the way things should be done.

CadillacSTS42005
03-13-06, 09:43 PM
well how goes it?

fubar569
03-13-06, 11:03 PM
need ABS wiring diagram for 97 deville base model with N*

that's kinda where i sit...everythign else is set & ready to go

96-deville-man
03-13-06, 11:13 PM
need ABS wiring diagram for 97 deville base model with N*

that's kinda where i sit...everythign else is set & ready to go

is it the same as 96? i might have it in a man.

i just check both haynes and chilton and neither one had it sorry.

fubar569
03-14-06, 12:37 AM
it's gonna have to come from a factory service manual...i'll try a dealer connection i have tomorrow

fubar569
03-14-06, 06:25 PM
well, i got the shipment of relays i was expecting today, and also decided on a simple 2 pin molex for your power and 12v connections.

the finished product!

http://mysite.verizon.net/fubar569/box8.jpg

now all i need is that wiring diagram. lol...

AlBundy
03-14-06, 09:31 PM
Well I'm really impressed with your project and I hope it work out. If possible could you please supply some video for I'm sure it will help sales. BTW eldorado1, Mark99STS & Danbuc your contribution to the performance of the N* forum is priceless. Thanks alot I've learned alot.

fubar569
03-15-06, 02:21 AM
i know...without them and everyone in this thread this project probably never would've happened.

but i took one last pic, this is 99.99999% like what you'd recieve if you ordered one...

(1) Cadillac "TracPAC" traction control box...(name is preliminary)

(1) "wiring Harness" - 6 to 10ft in length, double shielded twisted pair parallel cable with end cut and reconstructed. Other end will be cut back 2" to allow splicing into wheel sensor wires. 2 wires per sensor x 4 sensors = 8 wires x 2 (input and output connections) = 16 connections to be made by installer.

(1) 2pin molex connector for your power and ground. each lead will match the length of the wiring harness.

(1) switch to splice inline on the red (power) wire. i am using a lighted switch to elininate the need for the LED. yours may be ordered either way. if you order the LED option, yours will ship with a 4pin molex connector. those wires will be power, ground, 2 leads for the LED which will include a LED holder that you will be required to drill & mount at your choice of location. LED wires will match length of other 2 harnesses to facilitate ease of installation and mounting in just about any concievable location within the vehicle.

It is my belief that with somewhere between 6 and 10ft of wiring, you could mount this thing just about anywhere. the pic below represents just what you'd recieve in the package.

http://mysite.verizon.net/fubar569/box9.jpg

i'm also toying with the idea of active cooling, or at least venting the enclosure. i'm not sure if there would be any noticable heat buildup or wether or not it would adversly affect performance. since mineis the test bed i'm sure i'll dream up something.

CadillacSTS42005
03-15-06, 08:52 PM
did you test it yet man?

fubar569
03-15-06, 08:52 PM
good news guys...my dealer had the service manual and let me copy what I needed..time to install!

CadillacSTS42005
03-15-06, 09:23 PM
Sweet!!!

AlBundy
03-15-06, 09:37 PM
Come on now does it work? I am awaiting a judgement or a positive response.

fubar569
03-15-06, 10:52 PM
well guys you should have it tomorrow. i have thursday off and if weather holds out i'll have it in and a nice video for you to watch. that's if and if mother nature cooperates so lets hope it does!

CadillacSTS42005
03-16-06, 08:58 AM
Fubar its Thursday and im dying for some news ha ha (i know im an impacient lil bastard ha ha) good luck hope the weather and everything goes well

fubar569
03-16-06, 03:46 PM
NOTE TO SELF:

when you budget a day for carwork, make sure you wake up a little earlier then 4pm and also make sure it's a little warmer than 35 degrees out

i did do a little investigating of what needs to be done. i found where i can punch through the firewall. looks like there's a small hle covered with some sort of resin compound. i can see the light through it. i'll enlarge that hole to fit the cable through.

Found the EBTCM. i think im gonna nickname it the OMFGWAPITA module (oh my f**king god what a pain in the ass).

removed airbox to get a glimpse of it. saw the connector which so happens to be on the opposite side i have most access to (go GM). it almost looks like one of the radiator hoses is blocking my view. so far from what i can tell the airbox (upper and lower), PCM, and possibly one of thosehoses will have to come out (or be disconnected) for me to have enough access to comfortably work. it looks like GM gave me about 3" of wire to work with so there is no margin for error.

at that point i aborted the install. it's too cold to have my car torn apart with the possibility of it not running for tomorrow. my uncle has a heated garage. i'll see if i can get in with him next week to give this a whirl.

so what did i acomplish? very preliminary stuff. identified what's gotta come out, where to tap in, where to run the wiring. it's all thought out, just too cold here to do right now. my working 2nd shift and being on the most retarded sleep schedule ever dosn't help matters any.

Sorry to disappoint, just thought it was gonnabe a little easier to get to than this.

i will keep everyone posted.

AlBundy
03-16-06, 09:13 PM
Take your time and do it right.

danbuc
03-18-06, 01:48 PM
If your worried about heat, it should't be a problem unless your talking about external influences (like, if it was place in the engine compartment for example). If you wanted, I would suggest getting a small 12v fan from radioshack, and mounting it inside. You could cut some small holes in the side of the case and mount the fan on the inside to draw in fresh air. I dought that it would really be necessary though. You could also get some thermal shielding material and simply wrap it around the outside to reflect heat away from the box. Either way, I doubt you get any significant heat build up internally within the box. After all, you only dealing with a couple hundred milivolts. Good luck with getting it setup up


Oh yeah, working with that connector for the module it a total pain in the ass. That's why I only managed to run one curcuit through th box I made. I just didn't have the time (or patience) to fight with the harness, and all the other crap in there in order to connect it al up. I ended up throwing in the towel and soldering that one twisted pair back together and then sealing it all up. Hopefully you meet with more success than I did. If you can jack th fornt of the car up, you might be able to feed the wire loom down behind the cradle and out the botom of the car. If you got a creeper, and a flshlight, you would have more room to work with (in regards to the connect and wires) than if you were going down through the top of the engine bay like I did. There isn't much slack on that harness when working from the top. That's why I think feeding it out the bottom would give you more room to work.

Anyway, good luck, let us know how it works out when you get it all connected.:thumbsup:

96-deville-man
03-18-06, 09:34 PM
how many pins did you need for those connetors? i think i got some for ya. i have more than youll ever need.

fubar569
03-22-06, 12:01 AM
well...good news & bad news

good news = 2 days off, and i don't care what the weather is like...i gotta get this done

the reason is

bad news = 605 dollar cellphone bill - international text messaging is bad, especially when you outdid your regular 500msgs eacy way limit by about....2200 each way...go dave!

so yeah...we'll know soon enough wether or not this can be done...and if so...have pity on a poor white boy and spread the word so i can pay off the bills...lol :crybaby:

end rant...

p.s. if you need to get a hold of me for information regarding this unit, just call...i have tons of minutes. also, the IMs go with me everywhere i do, so use those as well...email is always awesome as well...of if you just wanna get together and drink a beer...if you're in the area...i'm always up for a drink...give me a buzz

eldorado1
03-22-06, 07:07 AM
bad news = 605 dollar cellphone bill - international text messaging is bad, especially when you outdid your regular 500msgs eacy way limit by about....2200 each way...go dave!


:suspect::holycrap:

CadillacSTS42005
03-22-06, 08:00 AM
fubar all that would be nice if youd let us know how to contact you ha ha

danbuc
03-22-06, 01:07 PM
That's what I was gonna say...

fubar569
03-22-06, 02:19 PM
it should have been buried in the thread somewhere, but here's the cliffnotes

AIM: sharkbodyvette
ICQ: 19050680
MSN: fubar569@hotmail.com
Yahoo!: fubar569
Cellphone (814)-331-1292
Email: fubar569@verizon.net

i work from 3:30 - midnight about 1hr sway from home. i have wednesdays & thursdays off. usually i'm not at home between 2pm and 1am. the cell however is always on. it might take a bit to get back to you if it's during the work wek, but i will on breaks or such. if you're a verizon customer, text messaging is ok, since you're free anyways.

CadillacSTS42005
03-22-06, 07:58 PM
um dude where do ya live ha ha

fubar569
03-22-06, 10:47 PM
bradford, pennsylvania...off US RT 219...home of zippo lighters & case knives

CadillacSTS42005
03-22-06, 11:24 PM
dude i imed you on aol and got no responce whats up with that?!??!

fubar569
03-22-06, 11:27 PM
i was at the bowling alley and my phone locked up...didn't catch your SN either :confused:

but i did open with 256 & 255 back to back & finished with a 712 series...not bad...

CadillacSTS42005
03-23-06, 12:39 PM
well man its 130 hows the tc mod goin intel man i need intel

AlBundy
03-23-06, 07:54 PM
Fubar569, I noticed in this thread that Danbuc mentioned something about the torque steering being activated on his first set-up. Have you found away around this? Is it a case of as long as the computer gets its signals traction control & torque steer will be disabled?

danbuc
03-23-06, 08:22 PM
Are you reffering to my Speed Sensitive Steering not working? Torque steer is merely the difference in torque transfer between both fornt wheel, causing one side to over power the other, resulting in one wheel steering the car in the opposite direction. This you will have with, or without traction control.

STS 310
03-23-06, 10:32 PM
Yea. its a B**ch.

I still go one handed though...

fubar569
03-23-06, 10:48 PM
torque steer? bah...this ain't nothin...try a TSi that never made power till 3k....and then it was an on off switch. you hit 3k and no matter how many hands you had on the wheel, the wheel went completely cocked one direction...no saving it...

then again 25psi and the equivalent of HKS 272/280 duration cams will do that to you...

danbuc
03-23-06, 10:56 PM
Yeah, I don't really get much torque steer either. Maybe it's the Toyo's. It was raining today a little. I was on my way back home from dropping my friend off at the airport, and was going about 50mph. I went to pass some guy, and when I punched the gas, the wheel just started spinning like crazy. I managed to get over into the lane I wanted, but dman near drifted into the next lane after that. It was still spinning all the way up to 65 at which point I said screw it and let off. That was some torque steer right about there. :highfive:

STS 310
03-23-06, 11:08 PM
Funny thing is in my 97 SLS (which has more tourque) I felt verry little tourqe steer....

I miss that girl. a 97 with 37K the old people thing, like mint.

Rob_M
03-24-06, 12:27 AM
What's up with the Toyo's? I see alot of Cadillacs with them. My 93STS came with them. I noticed TEAM CADILLAC uses them. Are they supposed to be optimal for our ride or something? Just curious.

danbuc
03-26-06, 02:26 AM
Ehh..there's nothing too special about them, they just make some really good tires. I've got almost 40k miles out of mine Proxes TPT's, and beat the piss out of them. I just rotated them for the last time yesterday. I figure the way I drive, I've probably got another 10k miles out of them, and then they're history. I'll probably get another set after these are toast.

CadillacSTS42005
03-29-06, 12:13 PM
umm so whats going on with this system man?

CadillacSTS42005
12-11-06, 12:22 AM
still nothing....

danbuc
12-11-06, 07:58 PM
I guess it didn't work...

dp102288
12-11-06, 08:20 PM
Damn...thread raise.

Can I be lazy and ask for a summary? Please! :D

CadillacSTS42005
12-11-06, 09:05 PM
i want a way to turn off the t/c and keep 1st gear
this guy said he knew how
ive been eyein it forever hopin he would post and still nothing
im dyin to shut off the t/c and keep 1st gear...

dp102288
12-12-06, 11:14 AM
I didn't do any t/c reading but i guess you can't disable the t/c sensors near the wheels? Ground them out or something? Rewire both of them to only one wheel so they always read the same?

And I also guess that if you disable t/c in the pcm or ipc it will kill 1st gear?

CadillacSTS42005
12-12-06, 03:53 PM
yuh do that and you NEVER have t/c
i want a way to turn it off and on and maintain 1st gear...

dp102288
12-12-06, 07:04 PM
^^ Oh...damn again.

So you only want it sometimes? Man you are picky! :D :p

danbuc
12-12-06, 09:06 PM
Mark99STS did it on his car. I made a switch box that would have worked, had I ever got around to installing it. The problem with bypassing the wss using 1k ohm resistors, is that if you turn it on at the wrong time, it could be very dangerous. Not sure about any other cars, but I know mine uses the wss for the speed sensitive steering. If you were to bypass the wss on the highway for example, you'd be stuck with full P/S. Instead of just turning a little bit at 70mph, you end up turning a WHOLE LOT, which can lead to bad things happening. I tried the resistors right at the wss plugs one time before I drove to the track (didn't get around to installing the switchbox). I found out the hard way about the speed sensitive steering. About 3 miles down the highway, there was a big swooping turn. I when to gradually turn the wheel left like I always did, but it turned alot farther than I had planned, and I almost went sailing into the median. The problem I see with using this at the track, is if you needed to correct yourself halfway down the track at 60+mph, you could easily turn into the wall or the other lane, not realizing how easy the wheel is to turn at that speed with full P/S pressure.

The other interesting thing I noticed was how much the wheels actually spun with it wss bypassed. Even at the track, the only real way you would see much benefit from disabling t/c and launching in first gear, would be by using some sticky drag radials like M/T's. My soft Toyo's were no match for the engine power at WOT in first gear with no T/C. From my experience, using regular street tires, your better off leaving T/C on, and just feathering the throttle to keep wheel spin down when you launch it. Even with T/C on, my tires still spun like crazy half the time. The only difference between having the T/C on, and off is that with it on, the wheels will stop spinning faster, as the car tries to regain control. At the track, wheels spin is your enemy. The faster you can get the tires to grip the tarmac the better.

The only advantage I can really see with disabling the T/C would be to make use of the burnout box. That would allow us to get our tires nice and sticky, and wheel spin wouldn't be a big issue anymore. This also raises the question of how to you control which wheel spins. The last thing you want it to get one tires going, and end up with a blown diff the next day. It's basically useless without drag radials, or a LSD. Otherwise your just askin' for trouble.

CadillacSTS42005
12-12-06, 10:58 PM
tehe
call me what you want
but i wanna keep 1st gear so i can light'm up

dp102288
12-13-06, 09:50 AM
Dan, great post! I learned a lot from that.

danbuc
12-13-06, 06:31 PM
tehe
call me what you want
but i wanna keep 1st gear so i can light'm up

Send you diff out to Engineering Performance for an LSD conversion before hand, or you'll be kicking yourself in the ass later. I blew two diffs in my old mustang from doing one wheel burnouts. After all my engine, and suspension work..I kinda ran out of money to build the rear end. It had an open diff, and would light up one tire real good for a a couple hundred feet. This spelled certain death for the diff, which showed when the first one grenaded, and the second lost some teeth on the spider gears. Neither were very happy after that.

A diff for the 4T80E is a lot more expensive to buy and replace than it is for a '66 Ford 8.5" axle. At the very least, don't do it on anything but the driest, stickiest surface you can find. Your car will thank you for it, and so will your wallet.

CadillacSTS42005
12-13-06, 11:35 PM
i have access to love 4 trannys for vin 9 n*s
how hard is it to pull a diff from them...

danbuc
12-14-06, 06:40 PM
It's not that hard, but the point is why would you even want to if you don't HAVE too. Also, there is no difference internally between the vin y and vin 9 spec 4T80E's, other than the amount of teeth on the helical ring and pinion gears. Otherwise, the actual diff, and all the other internal parts are basically the same. My car is proof of this. I've got a vin y 4T80E in my car, but the vin 9 3.71:1 ratio gear set was transfered over. The shop that put the new tranny in, could get a reman 4T80E with the 3.71:1 ratio since none were available at the time. The just ordered a vin y and swapped the gears. It's worked fine ever since. Other than the gears, it's just a matter of programming (shift points, ect...).

Back to the original point though. An LSD is nice to have, even if your not going in a straight line. I've found many times, that while going around a turn at high speed, my inside wheel will spin excessively if I hat the gas too hard. Any car with an open diff will do this. An LSD would help alleviate that issue, and provide better overall traction through tight, fast turns as well.

Plus, if you ever plan on upgrading to a higher stall speed converter, it would be beneficial to have an LSD, so that you don't burn your tires up every time you launch the car.

CadillacSTS42005
12-14-06, 08:40 PM
well and LSD is somethin i want to do but i cant have the down time of my car hence why ill pull one from a yard have it built sent back and install it the same day
any idea how much that costs?

danbuc
12-15-06, 07:54 PM
I can't remember how much it was, maybe a couple hundred bucks or so. Here's the link to the site if your not familiar with them. There's not a whole lot on there, never has been...so your probably better off just calling them. http://www.engineered.net/eplsd.htm

edit: They don't list the 4T80E on their site, but they can build you one. They built one for Mark, plus the 4T60E and 4T80E aren't example apples to oranges either, pretty similar.

CadillacSTS42005
12-15-06, 08:08 PM
thanx i shot them an email lets see how much

danbuc
12-16-06, 11:10 AM
Sounds good. A year ago, I was saving up to do the LSD conversion, and and wanted throw a 3200rpm stall converter in my car, but money ran tight (I was at school) and I never go the chance.

CadillacSTS42005
12-17-06, 11:34 PM
just herd back
heres what i got
Thanks for the inquiry! The EP LSD for the 4T80E is $649.00, outright. If you order before Wed, 12-20, it will ship before Christmas. Otherwise, it will likely be near the end of January.

Visa/MC accepted. Call to order.

forget about that for now for me 1k damn
even though i think they are gonna send out a whole diff you dont send in yours to have it built thats still way too much for me right now...

danbuc
12-18-06, 07:05 PM
Hmm...I thought I remember mark saying he sent his in. Do they offer any discount on a core from a stock diff? Seems like it might be worth a shot and see if they will drop the price, or refund some money back to you if you send them the original diff.

CadillacSTS42005
12-18-06, 07:20 PM
inno
i can ask
or u wanna?

danbuc
12-19-06, 09:57 PM
I don't really have the time to call since I work from 7:00 to around 5:00 and just come home and crash everyday. Are they open on Saturdays? I could call then, unless you've got time and feel like it. I would, but my day's are crazy.

CadillacSTS42005
12-20-06, 02:11 PM
could email them
idc
currently im burried in finals haha

dp102288
12-20-06, 09:34 PM
currently im burried in finals haha

Glad I finished the semester last week! :bouncy:

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