: Ground Control



1badcady
02-22-06, 05:20 PM
Spoke to ground control, the V"s coil overs should be ready by next week:thumbsup:

Florian
02-22-06, 05:23 PM
YAY!

Credit card ready!


F

DILLIGAF
02-22-06, 06:01 PM
Yippie!

Carnalsupply
02-22-06, 07:37 PM
I guess we're all getting anxious, I called them yesterday too! They told me it'd be about 2 weeks. What a shame they're not ready, I snuck the credit card out of my wifes wallet in hopes they'd be available.

moldowan
02-22-06, 08:39 PM
READ: 2 weeks means 1-2 months by mfgr. watches!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Hope im wrong here ,but hotchkiss and others said same thing when there product was "2 weeks out" and we waited 1-2 more mo.

BTW I really want a set too!!!!!!
-moldy

Geno
02-22-06, 08:50 PM
If I remember correctly Corsa was several months behind its original delivery date back in 2004.

As I've posted previously, I want his kit. However life goes on and I have other options to pursue if it's delayed another 30 days. I hope you are listening GC.
.:annoyed:

DILLIGAF
02-22-06, 08:55 PM
Will GC be posting that there ready?Do I need to be calling somebody?Is this still a group type purchase?If I need to call, could one of you guys give me a number or link?Should I not ask so many questions?

BowenCT
02-22-06, 08:57 PM
Will GC be posting that there ready?Do I need to be calling somebody?Is this still a group type purchase?If I need to call, could one of you guys give me a number or link?Should I not ask so many questions?

Hahaha.....that was good..........

I would guess that they will let Dreamin know when the kit is all set.

Here is their link: http://www.ground-control.com/

wildwhl
02-23-06, 02:13 AM
I will have a beta kit for FG2 testing prior to the weekend, install planned for Saturday. I'll keep everyone posted.

WW

DILLIGAF
02-23-06, 09:27 PM
Bump for dreaming

wildwhl
02-24-06, 01:33 AM
Beta kit in hand. Looks good.

If work doesn't keep kicking my ass (and CVP stops trying to catch me in the post race) I'll take some time and install this weekend.

WW

Dreamin
02-24-06, 04:11 PM
Bump for dreaming

Haven't talked to GC a little bit... but they are planning on becoming a supporting vendor when the kits are done and they have enough inventory ready to go. So expect a post directly from them.

The fact that Wildwhl has his kit is VERY good news!


(P.S. Wild, your advice wrt Reno work out perfectly. Thanks :lildevil: )

VELOSE
02-24-06, 04:26 PM
The way my V is sitting with the WWmod in back, daily driving ride, and sways, I'm almost tempted to not go with the GC kit. So GC can take all the time they want on my account. Life is bliss with the V these days. It's a sunny day in Norcal today. I had to take it out while it's still shiny from the other day I washed it. :D

thebigjimsho
02-24-06, 08:50 PM
Make the biggest little mistake of your life in Reno.

DILLIGAF
02-24-06, 09:09 PM
Credit card itching in hand.Jim-the falkins are on,new thread with pics tomorrow.Me Likey

calicadi
02-24-06, 11:58 PM
Anybody got a line on end-links? We have word of a Hotchkis recommendation in another thread that lowered cars should get beefier (possibly shorter) end links to prevent buckling.

VELOSE
02-25-06, 01:01 AM
That's another reason why I don't want to lower it anymore too.

wildwhl
02-25-06, 01:13 AM
So do we want heim style like these are?

http://www.outmotoring.com/adjustable_sway_bar_links.html

I believe someone in the other thread mentioned they would be noisy. The heim joints are usually availalbe at VW/sandrail specialty shops - and the middle pipe piece is easy enough to fab :hmm:

I found these as well that are teflon lined:

http://www.vividracing.com/catalog/popup_image.php/pID/672/image/0

Should be quieter.

And then there are these:

http://www.splparts.com/Parts/S13/Suspension/Stabilizers/default.asp

Checked Summit Racing online to see if they had anything showing in Sparks inventory - no go...might have to fab something tomorrow when the GC kit goes in.

WW

wooderson
02-25-06, 01:20 PM
What is going to be included in the GC kit besides springs?

rgd
02-25-06, 01:37 PM
Thank you, since installing Hotchkis and lowering my car I have broken two links. I posted the other night w/no firm answer to this question about why. So now I know! :thumbsup:




Anybody got a line on end-links? We have word of a Hotchkis recommendation in another thread that lowered cars should get beefier (possibly shorter) end links to prevent buckling.

BowenCT
02-25-06, 04:43 PM
I hope someone can/will recommend the best unit for our application because this is unchartered waters for me so I have no clue. I'd like to only have to mess with this once by installing new links at the same time the Hotchkis bars go on.

thebigjimsho
02-25-06, 04:45 PM
Believe me, links are no big deal. They're easy to replace.

BowenCT
02-25-06, 04:53 PM
Believe me, links are no big deal. They're easy to replace.

Cool, thanks for the heads up and peace of mind. I have FG2s already and with the addition of 19" wheels, a drop from the Ground Control kit and installation of the Hotchkis bars, all at the same time, I know mine will break.

wildwhl
02-25-06, 11:32 PM
OK - this post could be called mod hell part 2, but I'll do my best.

Today started off pretty uneventful.

Started on the V at about 10:30. Did the quick RAP mod for the cigar lighters (installed relay, moved fuses - thanks Reed).

The goal for the day was to install the GC beta kit (sans instructions).

Quickly unpacked the GC kit. Each corner of the car was individually wrapped. They included 500 lb springs on the front and 550 lb springs on the back. This seems backwards to me, but I figure they know more than I do. Looks pretty straightforward. Verify that there are at least 6 soldiers in the fridge. Music on, let's get it on.

Took measurement for ride height as I'm quite happy with how the car rides with the wildwhl mod. 26 3/4" front, 27 1/4" rear. Up on jack stands, pull all four wheels and both front strut assemblies including upper suspension mount/arm (not necessary, the strut and spring can come out without pulling all of that). 45 minutes later I have both struts out and disassembled.

Then comes the first bump in the road. Online to the .faq to look at Dreamin's pics to clarify a few things. Finally figure out which bushing is to removed with the supplied "busings removal tool" - see pics. Gold part on the top of the shock is what they're talking about. The assembly is really straight forward and all of the components look quite nice. When I notice the inside of the front adjustable mount is aluminum I'm a touch concerned. This is the part that will ride on the clip on the shock. ALL of the car's weight (and then some with G-force on braking/bumps, etc.) is on these parts. Steel would make more sense here to me.

Total install time about 2.5 hours. Rear shocks were previously modded with spacers - so you would add 30-45 minutes to do that.

wildwhl
02-25-06, 11:36 PM
Part 2

After about 2 hours I have the entire kit in ready to drop the car down for the first height test. I thought I was being smart and counted the grooves from Dreamin's pics - but something is different here. I'm guessing the springs they've supplied me are about 1.5-2" shorter than what they used on Dreamin's car.

Let's just say I'm real proficient now at raising the car, pulling the front wheels, adjusting the coil mount, remounting, test, repeat. Started at 9 threads from the bottom, ended at 22. This netted me 26.5" front height.

In the rear I started 3 threads from the top and ended at 2, netting me 27" rear height. I like the 1/2" rake :D

wildwhl
02-25-06, 11:37 PM
Part 3 -

The wheel hop test. Felt good at first, but on a 2nd gear launch not so great :nono:

wildwhl
02-25-06, 11:42 PM
Part 4 -

The road test. Not so perfect here. It rides great - not as firm as the cut springs in the rear - and for the most part I liked it. Problem is I think the 550 lb springs are too much in the rear. It was real easy to get the rear to step out. I take her on my favorite group of twisties (I'm still running snow tires so I don't screw up and judge the change in tires here), fling her sideways through a few, and call it good. There is a bit of a clunk in the passenger rear - not sure what it is - but figure I'll check it out when I get home.

As I'm headed home, shit goes bad. I'm sitting a stoplight and the car just goes BANG and drops. Right front is rubbing on the tire. Light is green, I'm in the left lane, so flashers on I creep through the intersection and off the road.

Just what I suspected.

The lower adjustable mount AND stock clip have jumped out of the factory groove in the shock and SLAM, BANG, PHUQUE ME! The damage you see below was already done. I limp her home, making very large turns as I'm only about 3 blocks away.

Guess I'll call GC Monday and see what their thoughts are. I have limited tools at home, but was able to pull it apart enough to see what happened. Substantial fender damage, and of course inner fender as well :( Tire is pretty tore up from rubbing the 3 blocks to my house.

It would appear that either the aluminum was too soft, or more likely, the machined tolerance isn't fine enough. I have her back together to limp back to the shop tomorrow and remove the GC kit reinstalling the stock springs in the front. Had this happened during my spirited test drive, you'd be looking at an ebay auction for a wrecked V :rant2:

The clip is there, INSIDE of the machined aluminum part where it should be - but they both, together, slid down the shock. This means the ID of the bottom of the spring mount supplied by GC is too great. Needs to be smaller. I did not measure either of these before install and wish I had. Certainly not safe - and Dreamin - I HOPE yours are not machined like mine are!!!

DILLIGAF
02-25-06, 11:46 PM
Road test coming?Parts look sweet!As always good write-up.

DILLIGAF
02-25-06, 11:49 PM
I jinxed you.

wildwhl
02-25-06, 11:56 PM
One final note - on sway bar end links.

Mine were not broke or apart in any way - but they clearly are taking more abuse. Let's just say they are not nearly as tight in their sockets.

I didn't modify them because I'm certain we need a heavier duty replacement.

That's all for me tonight boys, time for

:alchi:


:alchi:


:alchi:

wildwhl
02-26-06, 01:10 AM
A little more thinking on the subject.

Looking at Dreamin's pics, they used a 1200x2.50x500lb front spring. The springs included in this beta kit (by the way, I'm not slamming Ground Control here, these things are to be expected with experiments) are 1000x2.50x5xxlb.

I think the too short spring on the front allows the shock mount to sort of wobble, if you will, thereby increasing the chance for failure as I experienced today.

Possibly since I'm beta-testing, they included the short springs in two rates so I could swap them front to rear :hmm:

I think I'll rework this kit a bit for Ground Control's (and your) sake. It is possible that todays failure is due to the fact that my clips have been removed from the shock before. They are "painted in place" from the factory, and that might make a difference...we'll rework it tomorrow and see what I come up with.

WW

ace996
02-26-06, 01:32 AM
WW,
Man...you are a saint. I'm so sorry you had issues.
Here are my thoughts of the oversteer...
Dreamin didn't have the Hots bars. The bars are stiffer in the rear than in the front, by that I mean that in relation over stock...they are biased toward making a slightly understeering car go neutral. Hots does this with most of their competiton bars, as most manufacturers tend to lean towards understeer.
Second, Dreamin had 275s in the rear and GC picked the rates they did to make the car neutral, thus the stiffer bars in the rear. Unless you have 275 rear winter tires, you have less grip and will oversteer.

Add both the Hots bars and the thinner rear tires.....OVERSTEER!!! Also, with your maggie, discounting any extra soundequipment in the trunk, there is more weight on the front than stock...so the front will act softer and give a more grippy feeling.

I assume with 275s in the rear, the oversteer will be reduced. With the Hots bars, you may need to switch the springs to compensate for the increase in rear roll-resistance. Keep in mind, that it is usually safer for MOST drivers to have a slightly understeering vehicle...especially highpowered rear-drive cars.

Now for autox, your set-up may be perfect..as rotation is usually never undesired. But on a road course, doing +100 corners, I'd rather have more rear bite...keeps the car straighter and less chances of triple-digit-speed spins!!!!!

Reagrding the slippage of the collar...it couldn't hurt to squeeze some super-strong epoxy around the shockbody, above and on the ring, to make sure the collar doesn't do that again. Of course, that would only be recommended should the kit be planned on being permanent.
Again, you are a saint. I hope things go better tomorrow.
-ace

wildwhl
02-26-06, 01:44 AM
Ace -

good points. I ran my test course this morning just prior to the install with the same tires as afterwards - 245/45/18 wintersports. The oversteer was up - way up - with the GC kit in place. Managed .92 on my favorite corner in the a.m., and only .73 in the p.m.

I would bet you would love the way the car is setup right now for auto-x. What are your thoughts on this, though:

Dreamin has 500 front 450 rear rates.

I'm running 500 front 550 rear rates right now.

Seems to me I should swap them.

And epoxy isn't a bad idea - but a quick spot weld should do the trick :thumbsup:

ctsvett
02-26-06, 02:26 AM
Holy crap. Can you guys stop breaking your cars...

I guess thats what happens when you beta test... GC owes you a new fender I think (taking one for the team). these things do happen.

Unfortunately, I am not close enough to you to offer my wrench turning services (still waiting for you to call if you need me heavy!).

Good luck!

Reed

ace996
02-26-06, 02:45 AM
WW,
Well, with our suspension design, going to a higher front spring should help the oversteer problem. Only way to tell is to put in the time...
I really question why GC gave you stiffer in the rear? I'm thinking that was a mistake... Dreamin's results, IIRC, were pretty spot on for what he was expecting and liked the neutrality of the setup. For your car, more weight in front and rear, I can see the rise in rates...you also have the FG2s...right? They should respond to higher rates, any decrease in the compression harshness? I know STIs benefit from slightly stiffer springs on stock struts...they are valved for the nonUSDM but we get the softer, more American, springs...

I'm wondering how your setup will be with proper tire size...and compounds. Any way to run the 245/275s and get some heat in them? (and don't just use the Maggie...you need to heat the fronts too!!!). I suspect that the larger rear tires and the spring swap may swing the car back to neutral..hopefully not too much to induce too much understeer. You are on virgin ground with the Hots bars and GC kit, too.

I forget(IIRC they are not)...are the Hots bars adjustable? If so, it may pay to move the holes to the outside position and work from there. If there's too much understeer with the wider rears and spring swap, then either going softer on the bars in the rear or stiffer in the front should help.
Hey, do you think it's possible to drill another hole in the front bar? A more inside hole? That would add front stiffness and help balance the bias of the system. Since our shocks aren't adjustable, any other way to dial-in the balance would be a benefit.

Good luck and be careful.
-ace

wildwhl
02-26-06, 02:53 AM
Ace -

Since I'll be pulling it all off to make sure it is all correct, when it goes back on I'll swap the springs as I too think that was a mistake.

I don't think we can drill any more holes in the sways - and they are not adjustable.

Another few weeks and I'll be back on summer tires (245/275), or maybe tomorrow if I feel like it. I'll tack the rings in place on the shock body so the collars can't go anywhere, but I'm really quite certain there is another issue and that is the length of the springs. I'm at 26.5" or so ride height, and I'm adjusted to nearly the top of the collar. That can't be right.


I'll keep everyone posted.

The fender - oh well. I have two door dings, a hood (some day), and now a fender that needs some attention. Might as well just repaint the whole car the fast color while I'm at it...oh wait, it already is :p

ace996
02-26-06, 03:09 AM
I'm at 26.5" or so ride height, and I'm adjusted to nearly the top of the collar. That can't be right.


If I understand the set-up correctly....you have positioned the adjustable collar almost all the way to the top of it's adjustment range? Meaning that you couldn't raise the rideheight much more?
If that's a correct description...do not put them back on tomorrow!!! You should be in the middle of the adjustment threads...allowing a stock ride height or lower ride height. Sounds like the springs are too short...yes.
Call GC and have them overnight you proper springs. Explain the situation and what is happening. Jay or Dale should be able to diagnose the issues and Rx from there. You may just need 1" more spring.
Also, do this...
Tape some tic-tacs to the top of the spring coils...not all of them...a few in the middle. Take your drive...some good healthy curves that will compress the suspension through it's range of motion to the best of the tire's ability. Then check the tic-tacs. If they are broken...then you may be experiencing coil-bind. That makes the effective spring rate infinite....NOT GOOD. It's like locking the suspension into a static state where the tire is the only effective spring....like a go-cart.

And the tac-welding sounds like a fantastic idea. I'd even put a little more material below the collar's edge...just to make sure.

Again, good luck...
-ace

Dreamin
02-26-06, 04:53 AM
Damn dude... sorry about your issues. From the top:

My spring rates are 500 front / 550 rear. (My original post of 500f and 450R was a typo). With this, I have NO oversteer. So much (not) so, that I put 245s back on the rear, just to get a little more rotation on track. I am happy with 245/245. 245/275 would be a nice, conservation setup, leaning toward understeer.

GC's spring rates do make sense; since 400 F/R is stock, 500 F/R would make the car handling like stock (+/-) which is balanced to understeer. To reduce understeer just a hair, and try to balance the car even more, GC went with 500F/550R.

Can or did you do any 'skid-pad' like testing, meaning on a freeway offramp/onramp as fast as you can go, before sliding, but with minimal throttle... not heavy throttle... trying to take your SC out of the equation... you make a sh*t-lot more torque than I do, even at low-rpms. So is your oversteer "steady-state" oversteer of power-oversteer? And Could it be your crappy tires and 40 deg temps?

I am going to try to install my Hotkis bars tomorrow... i'll see what that does as far as oversteer.

I am running 1000x2.50x5xxlb front springs, meaning 10" not 12". This was one of the things changed when I was having my noise problems in the front. They determine the longer 12" springs were bowing/laterally flexing a little and that is what was causing the noise problems. 10" springs solved that. Using that logic, there is less lateral motion with the 10" springs, so they should be safer than the 12" springs as far as slipping off the spring clip.

I'm at 26.5" front height and I'm close to the top of the sleeve as well, but could get my car to stock height in front (maybe with 1/4" or 1/2") if i wanted to. Is your sleeve sitting lower than mine??


It is possible that todays failure is due to the fact that my clips have been removed from the shock before.
That's what i first thought when I read the post. GC was shocked at how small the factory spring clips are are, and purposely used / machines as tight of a setup as possible.
Again, I am using 10" fronts and have NOT had this problem. Maybe it's GM's mfg tolerances... could my clips be a few fractions of mm's wider than yours. :( Talk to GC about this!!


Also, with your maggie, discounting any extra soundequipment in the trunk, there is more weight on the front than stock...so the front will act softer and give a more grippy feeling.
More weight in the front will give him more understeer.


If they are broken...then you may be experiencing coil-bind. That makes the effective spring rate infinite....NOT GOOD. It's like locking the suspension into a static state where the tire is the only effective spring....like a go-cart.
On the front, I've checked for this, the bump-stop is fine, and there is not coil-bind. And if this happens, you go from balanced handling to REALLY bad understeer!

WW: I'm going skiing again next week... I can swing by your shop afterward... or we should both meet at GC's. I'll call you.

urbanski
02-26-06, 07:23 AM
do NOT repaint the car
its a neverending pain in the ASS

Geno
02-26-06, 12:16 PM
DAMMNNN!!! The inhumanity of it all.

The front failure really, really sucks. I often wondered how that small slip ring could handle all that loading..seemed kind of a chickenshit arrangement to me. That's a great idea to tack weld, and will definitely be on my to do list.

WW, I can't tell you how much I appreciate your efforts. You not only talk the talk, but more importantly you walk the walk. You my friend are the real deal.:worship: :thumbsup:

wildwhl
02-26-06, 12:39 PM
Gents -

First off I want to thank Dreamin for making this mod even possible - and for posting in this thread to help me get everything sorted out.

Please let me make one thing clear for all of you. I ASKED to be a beta tester and in no way hold Ground Control responsible for what has resulted. The damage isn't really that significant (though it could have been), and when my hood finally shows up it won't be a big deal for the body shop to repair (possibly without paint).

After sleeping on it I suspect this problem would not occur to anyone who has not removed their spring clips. So - CAUTION TO THOSE OF YOU WHO HAVE GROOVED YOUR FRONT SHOCKS AND INTEND TO INSTALL THE GC KIT! I plan to go one step further then some tack welds. The shocks don't like heat, so welding has to be quite limited. I hope to find a sleeve the same diameter as the shock body. Using about 1" of the material, I'll drill 3 or 4 1/8" holes in it and tack it in place below the clip up flush and tight to it. That will solve the problem forever (especially if the shock explodes while welding!).

Specific points:

Oversteer - of course there is power on oversteer - but my concern with initial testing is that steady state oversteer is more severe. Dreamin is correct - crappy winter tires, mid 40's, and dirt all over the roads doesn't help this. My testing though shows that steady state oversteer is significantly higher in my car than it was with cut rear springs and the WW mod front shocks. Most likely the combination of Hots bars and tires are the difference. If my family will let me bail out on them for a couple hours today - we'll know.

Ride quality is SUBSTANTIALLY BETTER with the GC kit than it was with the stock springs and mods. This matters. Big :thumbsup: here.

It is good to know that Dreamin also has the 1000 length springs and isn't having issues. He is correct that the ride height could be increased. I could raise the front another 1/2 to 3/4 inch I would guess. Remember, from previous post inquiries that the FG2 appears to ride lower than the FE4 anyway. Bet it is the position of the groove in the shock - something I had the opportunity to check dozens of times but never thought to. Somebody on this board owes me a set of FE4's - you reading this? How are they coming along?

Also good to see I have the springs on the correct corners of the car.

Ace - I don't believe there is any coil bind going on. I did a slightly different test in my parking lot prior to hitting the streets for my test drive. Same concept - no indication of coil binding. Didn't have any tic-tacs so I used M&M's :D

Rear noise - this one has me concerned. Last night I pulled the right rear wheel and looked for something loose. I can't find anything. There is a very noticable and repeatable click/click from braking to acceleration - even when doing so lightly. Something is rocking back there and I just can't seem to see what it is. The only other thing I added to the equation yesterday was a partial swap out of the GM wheelhop bushings (the bottom ones) back to the BMR metal units. I'll dig deeper today.

My only real concern on this kit is relying on the factory clips to not give way like they did to me yesterday. They are tiny, as Dreamin mentioned, and even a couple of thousandths will make the difference. That is why I'm going to suggest they make the insert from steel as opposed to aluminum. Shouldn't be an issue for them to change to. Further safety could be had by removing the clip altogether and making the sleeve the full lenght of the shock body so it is already resting on the bottom of the shock - no slippage possible in that case :bouncy:


And gents - DON'T THANK ME - Thank Dreamin. He has a TON of hard work in on this. I'm just one of the fortunate ones who will benefit from his efforts. If he had a website, I'd send a donation (well, he does, but it isn't legal exactly :canttalk: )
WW :burn: out

Florian
02-26-06, 01:13 PM
WW,
Thanks for the headsup....glad to hear youre fine. Great insight and review.


F

Florian
02-26-06, 01:26 PM
DAMMNNN!!! The inhumanity of it all.

The front failure really, really sucks. I often wondered how that small slip ring could handle all that loading..seemed kind of a chickenshit arrangement to me. That's a great idea to tack weld, and will definitely be on my to do list.

WW, I can't tell you how much I appreciate your efforts. You not only talk the talk, but more importantly you walk the walk. You my friend are the real deal.:worship: :thumbsup:
:yeah:

Thanks again WW!


F

BowenCT
02-26-06, 01:31 PM
Agreed. Dreamin and WW, you guys are true class acts. Your knowlegable contributions to this forum are sooooo much appreciated. Thank you!

thebigjimsho
02-26-06, 02:41 PM
Wild, if you need a set of FE4s, let me now and I can get them to you.

You guys working with Ground Control deserve unlimited amounts of Patron, Shiners, lap dances, whatever.

urbanski
02-26-06, 03:00 PM
dang ww
cool write ups :)

urbanski
02-26-06, 03:00 PM
Wild, if you need a set of FE4s, let me now and I can get them to you.

You guys working with Ground Control deserve unlimited amounts of Patron, Shiners, lap dances, whatever.
i may possibly supply tehm with shiners (having one now) and lap dances:highfive:

wildwhl
02-26-06, 03:19 PM
I only have room for CVP on this lap :canttalk:

urbanski
02-26-06, 03:21 PM
:rant2:

wildwhl
02-26-06, 04:18 PM
Urby -

You have a shiner again? I thought you figured that torque wrench out by now :histeric:

Thanks for the offers on the FE4's but I should be receiving my loaner set back any day now :confused:

WW

urbanski
02-26-06, 04:59 PM
Urby -

You have a shiner again? I thought you figured that torque wrench out by now :histeric:

started deadening wife's Denali today :(
it has alot of metal :(

wildwhl
02-26-06, 05:00 PM
You have a sickness, Urby, and you need help.

Better have a lot of the shinerbock on hand...you're going to need it.

VELOSE
02-26-06, 09:12 PM
WW and Dreamin, we are all so fortunate to have you guys on our side. I really think the V wouldn't have had an affordable coilover like this if it wasn't for both of you. Thank you for donating your time, V's, and relentless efforts. The R&D seems to be helping. Soon enough everyone else will be enjoying a bulletproof suspension.

WW, I didn't know you were close by too? I'm happy to have you and Dreamin close by if I ever get into a jam modding. :D