: New Northstar in 2008? Ultra?



Lord Cadillac
02-21-06, 03:04 PM
So what's this I'm hearing about a new Northstar? Does anyone have any details? I'm hearing it'll be called the "Ultra". Any information would be greatly appreciated...

eldorado1
02-21-06, 03:25 PM
From GM inside news:


GMI has learned that GM has acquired the help of the GM Performance Division to create an all-new engine which will be built in Livonia (where the current Northstar engine is produced) which will replace the current Northstar V8. The New Ultra-V8 will be a Global unit and is in the same High Feature Family as the DOHC 3.6 and 2.8 which currently power the Cadillac CTS and several Buick vehicles as well. The Ultra-V8 will displace 4.7l and is targeted to make 350-375HP Naturally Aspirated. This is extremely favorable against the current 4.6L Northstar Unit which makes 320HP N/A.
*Added: The Ultra V8 Will be a 90* unit, as apposed to the 60* of the other High Feature V6s*

So in other words, it's a new architecture, new design, similar features, it will be called the "ultra".

Katshot
02-21-06, 03:28 PM
Not much more power for an "all-new" design. Especially considering it's a higher displacement as well. :confused:

eldorado1
02-21-06, 04:16 PM
The northstar is already making 70hp/liter, which is pretty high for a naturally aspirated application. The addition of 0.1 liters is the equivalent of about 7hp. Putting on another 30-50hp on top of that is phenominal, which suggests the use of better designed heads and VVT phasors to keep the cadillac idle while still allowing more power.

blb
02-21-06, 07:20 PM
Any word on whether there has been any serious attempt in the areas of engineering and manufacturing to make sure these new engines don't carry on the tradition of headgaset failures?

eldorado1
02-21-06, 07:57 PM
Supposedly there is a new thread pitch for the 2000+ northstars, so they are aware of the head bolt problem, and have corrected it. They can't do anything for people who don't maintain their coolant.

C170B
02-22-06, 09:40 AM
I am looking forward to learning more about This new N* engine.

Keep in mind that no one is going to build an engine without "life limiting "
factors such as head gasket, headbolt problems. There are plans to sell upgrade parts kits the same time new model is introduced.

It saddens me to note that the engineering world has known you cannot use a steel headbolt direct into an aluminum block since the year 1938! Yes, 1938!
The real question is, why isn't the N* Timeserted at time of engine mfg in Livonia. Cost would be about $80.00 additional for each engine.

I think there is some buzz about the new engine coolant flowing from radiator to head FIRST then to engine block and back to radiator. Doesn't current design send coolant to eng block then to head?

I am happy to have a N*. Drove over 120K without knowing there were any issues.

eldorado1
02-22-06, 11:45 AM
You have to think about it in terms of PR/customer loyalty costs too... If cadillac put together some kind of "planned obsolescence" strategy, and they all broke when their warranties were up.... why would you want to get the same brand when yours did?

caddydaddy
02-22-06, 11:51 AM
Not much more power for an "all-new" design. Especially considering it's a higher displacement as well. :confused:

How many 4.7 N/A engines are there that make 350-375 HP? That's quite the jump from 320 for just 0.1 liter of displacement increase! I think it's a big improvement to keep up! :thumbsup: Makes my 300 HP STS seem weak. :eek:

Lord Cadillac
02-22-06, 11:54 AM
As long as there's 375 foot pounds of torque or more, I think 350-375 horsepower is respectible enough for a non-V Cadillac... The touring versions need to at least be in the high 5s (0-60) or very low 6s...

96-deville-man
02-22-06, 01:26 PM
I am looking forward to learning more about This new N* engine.

Keep in mind that no one is going to build an engine without "life limiting "
factors such as head gasket, headbolt problems. There are plans to sell upgrade parts kits the same time new model is introduced.

It saddens me to note that the engineering world has known you cannot use a steel headbolt direct into an aluminum block since the year 1938! Yes, 1938!
The real question is, why isn't the N* Timeserted at time of engine mfg in Livonia. Cost would be about $80.00 additional for each engine.

I think there is some buzz about the new engine coolant flowing from radiator to head FIRST then to engine block and back to radiator. Doesn't current design send coolant to eng block then to head?

I am happy to have a N*. Drove over 120K without knowing there were any issues.

that new cooling flow can be done on almost any car. It is done to cool the hottest part of the engine with the coolest coolant. yes most cars nowdays flow to the block first.

Zorb750
02-22-06, 01:30 PM
...

It saddens me to note that the engineering world has known you cannot use a steel headbolt direct into an aluminum block since the year 1938! Yes, 1938!
The real question is, why isn't the N* Timeserted at time of engine mfg in Livonia. Cost would be about $80.00 additional for each engine.

I think there is some buzz about the new engine coolant flowing from radiator to head FIRST then to engine block and back to radiator. Doesn't current design send coolant to eng block then to head?
.

Timesert inserts are about $2 apiece, so $40.

And no, the current Northstar uses a reverse flow cooling system. From head to block to radiator/heater core to head, with the fill from the surge tank going to the heater line.

EDIT: Afterthought... The reverse cooling system flow is probably one of the reasons that we don't have the same head problems the 4100s did. The 4100's problem was caused by uneven expansion. Think about it, the head gasket provides somewhat of an insulation, thereby creating a temperature differential and uneven expansion. Flowing coolant from head to block smooths that out a lot, thereby ensuring even expansion rates between head and block. Very important.

davesdeville
02-22-06, 10:19 PM
I don't think I like this, seems like it'll be much less Caddy exclusive. The first I'd heard of this was about a year ago, there was a bunch of speculation and nothing specific, at least now we're getting a set displacement and power range.

CadillacSTS42005
02-23-06, 02:24 PM
and im willing to bet this new N* wont be a drop in for those of us with a 93-04 N* lookin for more power...

caddydaddy
02-23-06, 03:39 PM
and im willing to bet this new N* wont be a drop in for those of us with a 93-04 N* lookin for more power...

I doubt they would put that much power to the front wheels! I'm sure it will be like all GM cars for the future, RWD!

brandonbyrd
02-23-06, 03:41 PM
yo that norhstar is sups to be a really biig engoine from waht i hear

chevelle
02-24-06, 12:43 AM
It saddens me to note that the engineering world has known you cannot use a steel headbolt direct into an aluminum block since the year 1938! Yes, 1938!

I think there is some buzz about the new engine coolant flowing from radiator to head FIRST then to engine block and back to radiator. Doesn't current design send coolant to eng block then to head?

.


Since when can't a steel bolt be used directly into an aluminum block....????

There are quit a few aluminum block engines on the market these days and NONE of them use any sort of thread insert into the aluminum of the block for the head bolts.

There is absolutely nothing wrong from an engineering standpoint or a practical standpoint from putting a steel bolt into an aluminum threaded hole.

Besides, if steel against aluminum is considered to be an issue then how does installing an insert help this situation? The insert is steel so the joint will still have steel against aluminum so nothing is gained in that respect.

chevelle
02-24-06, 12:57 AM
And no, the current Northstar uses a reverse flow cooling system. From head to block to radiator/heater core to head, with the fill from the surge tank going to the heater line.

EDIT: Afterthought... The reverse cooling system flow is probably one of the reasons that we don't have the same head problems the 4100s did. The 4100's problem was caused by uneven expansion. Think about it, the head gasket provides somewhat of an insulation, thereby creating a temperature differential and uneven expansion. Flowing coolant from head to block smooths that out a lot, thereby ensuring even expansion rates between head and block. Very important.


The Northstar engine does NOT use a reverse flow cooling system. The cooling system of the Northstar engine is fairly conventional in the sense of flow direction. The water pump pushes coolant directly into the block where it flows upward to the heads and then back to the water pump thru the radiator.

The unconventional thing about the Northstar that confuses people sometime is that the thermostat is on the inlet of the water pump...not the exit from the engine. A suction side stat has certain control advantages which is why the Northstar uses that setup. But the flow path of the coolant is conventional and NOT "reverse flow".

HT4100 engines had iron heads and aluminum blocks....and the same coolant flow path as the Northstar. So any supposed performance differences between the two engines is not because of the coolant flow path.

There is little or no reason for a reverse flow cooling system...i.e...a system that pushes coolant to the heads first and then to the block. The idea of cooling the hotest parts first sounds good but doesn't work in practice. There is a good reason you do not see reverse flow cooling systems on current production engines....they don't do anything except cause problems. Modern cooling sytems flow very high rates of coolant thru the block and heads. High flow rate is extremely important. Reverse flow does nothing. Reverse flow cooling systems can tend to mask some of the problems of low flow systems(leading to some of the misleading data from the early 80's) ....but not totally. The total "fix" is very high flow rates. With high flow rates the coolant nor the engine could care less which way the coolant is going....LOL. So current engines have very efficient, very high flow rate coolant pumps that rapidly exchange the coolant thru the system to eliminate any thermal gradients in the engine while "cooling" it. With the high flow rate systems most of the coolant flow is simply bypassed directly back to the engine. Relatively little of the flow of the pump actually goes to the radiator for "cooling". Most of the coolant flow just gets flushed back thru the engine to eliminate any thermal gradients inside the engine. Reverse cooling does little or nothing to prevent thermal gradients and the reverse flow systems tend to trap and hold air in the systems which is very detrimental to cooling capacity.

Interestingly, the Northstar engine was one of the first on the market with a modern, high flow cooling system. It pioneered the idea of high coolant exchange rates and inlet side stats which are features found on most all high performance/aluminum engines today from all manufacturers.

Zorb750
02-24-06, 02:34 AM
The Northstar engine does NOT use a reverse flow cooling system. The cooling system of the Northstar engine is fairly conventional in the sense of flow direction. The water pump pushes coolant directly into the block where it flows upward to the heads and then back to the water pump thru the radiator.

The unconventional thing about the Northstar that confuses people sometime is that the thermostat is on the inlet of the water pump...not the exit from the engine. A suction side stat has certain control advantages which is why the Northstar uses that setup. But the flow path of the coolant is conventional and NOT "reverse flow".

HT4100 engines had iron heads and aluminum blocks....and the same coolant flow path as the Northstar. So any supposed performance differences between the two engines is not because of the coolant flow path.

There is little or no reason for a reverse flow cooling system...i.e...a system that pushes coolant to the heads first and then to the block. The idea of cooling the hotest parts first sounds good but doesn't work in practice. There is a good reason you do not see reverse flow cooling systems on current production engines....they don't do anything except cause problems. Modern cooling sytems flow very high rates of coolant thru the block and heads. High flow rate is extremely important. Reverse flow does nothing. Reverse flow cooling systems can tend to mask some of the problems of low flow systems(leading to some of the misleading data from the early 80's) ....but not totally. The total "fix" is very high flow rates. With high flow rates the coolant nor the engine could care less which way the coolant is going....LOL. So current engines have very efficient, very high flow rate coolant pumps that rapidly exchange the coolant thru the system to eliminate any thermal gradients in the engine while "cooling" it. With the high flow rate systems most of the coolant flow is simply bypassed directly back to the engine. Relatively little of the flow of the pump actually goes to the radiator for "cooling". Most of the coolant flow just gets flushed back thru the engine to eliminate any thermal gradients inside the engine. Reverse cooling does little or nothing to prevent thermal gradients and the reverse flow systems tend to trap and hold air in the systems which is very detrimental to cooling capacity.

Interestingly, the Northstar engine was one of the first on the market with a modern, high flow cooling system. It pioneered the idea of high coolant exchange rates and inlet side stats which are features found on most all high performance/aluminum engines today from all manufacturers.

No. I have seen from official GM powertrain engineering sources ("whitepapers" if you will) about the technology in the Cadillac 4.6 V8, and reverse cooling flow is one of their "innovations" as is the pressurized expansion tank - though I think BMW had that one before.

eldorado1
02-24-06, 01:55 PM
The Northstar engine does NOT use a reverse flow cooling system. The cooling system of the Northstar engine is fairly conventional in the sense of flow direction. The water pump pushes coolant directly into the block where it flows upward to the heads and then back to the water pump thru the radiator.


You sound familiar... Did I just send you an email last night? No, don't answer that...

In any case, he's right - the coolant flows in to the block, then the heads, then out to the radiator. You don't need any "engineering papers" to see what's happening with the water pump right in front of you.

chevelle
02-24-06, 09:31 PM
No. I have seen from official GM powertrain engineering sources ("whitepapers" if you will) about the technology in the Cadillac 4.6 V8, and reverse cooling flow is one of their "innovations" as is the pressurized expansion tank - though I think BMW had that one before.



Nonsense. The engine does not have reverse flow cooling. You are wrong. There are no Powertrain sources that say that the engine has reverse flow cooling because it doesn't and the engineers that designed it that would write the "white papers" would know this....LOL.

Seriously, there is a misunderstanding. Possibly you saw something that related to the inlet side thermostat or something and possibly some magazine writer or press person misinterpreted that to mean "reverse flow".

Any glance at a service manual for the Northstar engine reveals an excellent coolant and oil flow diagram and it clearly shows that the coolant goes into the block from the pump and then up and into the head. NOT reverse flow. Check it out.