: EGR valve install question



CognLac
01-03-04, 08:20 PM
Hello Everyone, My 98 Deville has been doing some werid things lately, When i turn key to start, it acts like its not getting any gas, sometimes takes 5-6 sec of cranking to start, when it finally starts it runs very poorly for about another 5-6 secconds. Once all that is over it seems to be fine, I have also had the car stall on two occasions, i was able to put in Neutral and re-start. I took my baby to auto zone and they pulled my codes, we came up with a bad egr valve, being the DIY kind of guy i am i went home to install it and after removing the two bolts i noticed the fule lines run right over the center bolt, making it impossible to remove the EGR valve. the fuel lines are soldered on to a piece of metal that also uses the egr's bolt to secure it, My question is can i remove the fuel lines right there at the egr valve, with the batt dissconnected of course? I could pull the fule line fastiner up past the bolt, but there is no where to move it so i can get that last bolt out. I hope i described this good enough. I am going to try to tackle this again bright and early tomorrow morning DEC 4th so if anyone can reply tonight i would appreciate it greatly> Thanks in advance fellow cadillac lovers

zonie77
01-03-04, 10:56 PM
I'm havn't worked on a Deville but you should be able to move the fuel lines a pretty good amount once you take the bolt out.
The car should be designed to be able to remove the EGR fairly easily.Fuel lines are pretty strong, that doesn't mean you can take a crowbar to pry them out of the way but you can put a reasonable amount of pull on them.

CognLac
01-03-04, 11:09 PM
I'm havn't worked on a Deville but you should be able to move the fuel lines a pretty good amount once you take the bolt out.
The car should be designed to be able to remove the EGR fairly easily.Fuel lines are pretty strong, that doesn't mean you can take a crowbar to pry them out of the way but you can put a reasonable amount of pull on them.

Awesome! Thank you Zonnie77, i was being fairly easy on it fearing the worst, ill go give it hell tomorrow morning. Thanks Again

ellisss
01-04-04, 04:21 AM
Now I get to tell you why the AutoZone zombie didn't do you any favors.

The EGR 'code' that he so eagerly pulled from your Cadillac's PCM doesn't necessarily translate into a part that needs to be changed. Don't blame him, though... he just sells cheap auto parts. :bouncer:

Your Cadillac's PCM decides if an EGR fault needs to be set by momentarily commanding the EGR valve to open, and then watching the MAP sensor to see what kind of change there is in manifold pressure. If there isn't a change, or what change there is isn't large enough, then the PCM sets an EGR **system** fault.

The EGR passages in the intake manifold may be clogged. The MAP sensor may have had a hiccup. There might be a small particle of carbon stuck between the EGR's pintle and seat (easily cleaned). There are a few other possibilities, too.

Northstar's before 2003 had outrageous problems with carbon. EGR vales rarely fail (which isn't saying that they don't fail ever).

Believe it or not, there is actually some merit in having a qualified technician (instead of an AutoZone part seller) do the diagnosis.

If your EGR valve is really bad (bad, naughty EGR valve)... then your risky venture in having a free diagnosis has paid off in spades. Consider yourself lucky. :cookoo:

--
Elisss

CognLac
01-04-04, 08:40 PM
Now I get to tell you why the AutoZone zombie didn't do you any favors.


Believe it or not, there is actually some merit in having a qualified technician (instead of an AutoZone part seller) do the diagnosis.

Ellisss, you were correct. I managed to get the egr vavle in with some help from friends, and its doing the exact same da@# thing. It is much worse when its cold. but it still take 5-6 secconds of cranking to actually start. tomorrow i will replace the o2 sensor , now i have heard that i have two o2 sensors that i could replace and have also heard its best to replace the one AFTER the cat. I thought these cars have two cats?? If anyone wants to know how i got the EGR valve off the bolt. you have to hold the throtle open so it makes room for the gas line holder to slide over (towards front of car) If anyone has an opinion on which o2 sensor to replace first or im sure im missing someting else i can replace, or check. Thanks for the feedback so far guys, i need to solve this before a road trip i have planned to Vegas next weekend.

ellisss
01-04-04, 10:45 PM
Ellisss, you were correct. I managed to get the egr vavle in with some help from friends, and its doing the exact same da@# thing.
:banghead:

No no no no no. Do not replace an oxygen sensor.

While you may indeed have an O2 sensor that needs replacement, I can assure you that the symptoms you describe do not correlate to a slow, weak, or failed O2 sensor.

(begin humorous ranting...)
What you are doing is called playing baseball with your car. You're standing on the pitcher's mound with a pile of expensive parts. One by one, you throw the parts at your car, in the hope that one of the parts will fix your problem. If you have time and money to waste, then I promise you that eventually... one of the parts may (or may not) fix the problem.
(end ranting).

Oxygen sensors today are all heated sensors. They don't work until the internals reach about 600 degrees (f). Used to be that a car would remain in open loop (no on-the-fly control of fuel injection) until the exhaust gas would heat the O2 sensor enough so that it would function properly. With a heated O2 sensor, as soon as you turn the ignition key on, the internal heater in the sensor brings it up to proper temp within a few seconds.

Now, is it possible that the heater on your upstream O2 sensor is bad or week, causing poor drivability for a few seconds until it's hot enough? Sure. Is it possible for your heater to be faulty and not have an O2 sensor-specific fault code set in your PCM? No, not likely. Do I think you should replace the upstream O2 sensor now, without a proper diagnosis? No.

Do you need a proper diagnosis to determine the problem? No, of course not.

Let's check the basics first...

Fuel filter. Is it clogged? Don't just replace it if you're not sure. Save the money and remove your current fuel filter. Hold the filter vertically so that the inlet (marked on the filter) is pointing down. Does fuel readily and easily drain from the filter? Wipe the inlet nipple with a clean rag, while holding the inlet side up (pointing towards the sky). Apply your lips to the nipple and blow. Aside from the laughter going on at the thought of this... if you can easily blow through the filter, put the old one back on the car as it still has life in it. If, on the other hand, you can't easily blow through the inlet... you have a clogged filter. Replace it. Is that definitely the problem you are having? No, not definitely. Will a clean filter prolong the life of your very expensive fuel pump? Yes, definitely.

Okay... next...

Let's check for fuel injectors that are leaking fuel into your cylinders when the motor isn't running. Hook up a fuel pressure gauge (you have one, right? :lildevil: ) to the schrader valve on the fuel supply line. Turn the key to the on position without cranking the motor. Wait 5 seconds. Turn the key off. Watch the fuel pressure gauge. If you see anything like a significant drop in pressure during the first 10 minutes (like more than 10 or 15 psi), then you *may* have one or two injectors leaking gas after the motor stops.

This will possibly cause slow cranking, but will more than likely cause really poor running for the first few seconds of engine operation.

An alternative to the fuel pressure gauge watching thing is this: After letting the car sit overnight, turn the ignition key to the run position (do not crank the motor). A few seconds after that, turn the key off. 30 Seconds later do it again. Repeat a few times, and then start the motor. Look for a puff or plume of black or dark colored smoke from the exhaust. If you see the dark smoke, then that's probably the fuel leaking from an injector or two.

Okay... next...

Is there an exhaust restriction? Remove an upstream O2 sensor, and install a backpressure testing tool. Don't have one? Hmmm... do you have a vacuum gauge? Install it on a manifold vacuum port anywhere on the intake. Warm the engine to operating temperature. In Park and idling, note the vacuum reading on the gauge. Now rev the motor to 3000 RPM exactly while watching the vacuum gauge again. At 3000 RPM, you should see a minimum of 1.5" of vacuum more than you did at idle. If not, then you have a restricted exhaust.

I'm really at a loss to think of any other possibilities. Hopfully, one or two of the other qualified technicians residing at these forums will chime in with an opinion or two.

Is it any consolence that with a decent OBD2 diagnostic tool, a qualified mechanic will probably be able to diagnost the problem while sitting in the driver's seat? :lildevil: :lildevil:

Hope this is helping. Quit playing baseball with your car.

--
Ellisss

CognLac
01-05-04, 12:13 PM
[QUOTE=ellisss]:banghead:

No no no no no. Do not replace an oxygen sensor.

Hope this is helping. Quit playing baseball with your car.

--

First off, I want to thank you Ellisss, you have been most helpfull, and I have noticed you were the first to respond on other people's questions also. I will try the blowing the fuel filter test first, sounds fun too, free buzz ;) If this dosent work I will dry my eyes and then pony up the bread to have a Pro look at my baby. If i remember correctly, the FF should be under pass side about mid car? Also what is your take on trying a tank of mid grade instead of the usual premium, it seemed to work for another 4.6L owner. I dont think it will do any damage for one tank, just to try, or am I mistaken?

CognLac
01-05-04, 12:19 PM
QUOTE : Is it any consolence that with a decent OBD2 diagnostic tool, a qualified mechanic will probably be able to diagnost the problem while sitting in the driver's seat?

How much is a decent - good OBD2 tool cost? if this is any indication on whats to come with owning a caddy, is it worth the initial investment ?

DaveSmed
01-05-04, 04:11 PM
Decent OBDII reader for a Cadillac? $0. With the ignition on, push and hold either OFF and WARMER, or OFF and PASSENGER WARMER, whichever applies. When the displays all light up, you can let go and your car will scroll the codes on the Driver Info center. When it is done, it will display PCM?. At that point, you can just turn the ignition off.

burekv
01-05-04, 04:27 PM
Where is the fuel filter on a 97 STS? And could anyone give me step by step instructions on how to check and replace if necessary. Thanks

CognLac
01-05-04, 05:31 PM
Decent OBDII reader for a Cadillac? $0. With the ignition on, push and hold either OFF and WARMER, or OFF and PASSENGER WARMER, whichever applies. When the displays all light up, you can let go and your car will scroll the codes on the Driver Info center. When it is done, it will display PCM?. At that point, you can just turn the ignition off.

Sweet, is the "off" referring to display off or temp/hvac controls off?
go caddy huh, can i bank on what ever it tells me is correct?
and thank you Dave

Also is my fuel filter under pass side about mid car?

Logandiagnostic
01-05-04, 06:30 PM
Looking at the original post...it actually sounds like a leaking fuel pressure regulator. Common for these to go bad on the Northstars and Auroras....and cause hard starts/stalls.

Logan

CognLac
01-05-04, 08:54 PM
Looking at the original post...it actually sounds like a leaking fuel pressure regulator. Common for these to go bad on the Northstars and Auroras....and cause hard starts/stalls.

Logan

OK wow, well, i went ahead and replaced the fuel filter anyways, I honestly thought i was going to die about twice, and burn down my friends house while i was at it. I had no clue how to get the filter holder off. Anyone who will be doing this on their own for the first time, do yourself a favor and remove the little black clip from the other lines BEFORE you remove the gas lines. and the holder comes off WITH the filter (ahh) also there is a washer on the OUT side that is very small and fell off, pay attention. :( so now im stinky and my car does the same thing. LOGAN is there an easy way for someone like me to check that pressure regulator.and aproximate cost for a new one? I took the advice given (BY DAVE thanks) and checked my codes, to my suprise i had about 13 history codes but none current, at the end it scrolled through the 3 letter codes and all said NONE,

DaveSmed
01-05-04, 09:23 PM
The fuel pressure regulator is easy to check. Start the car up, and look for something that looks like the top of a small EGR valve thats by the fuel rail. It will have a vacuum line going to the top of it. Pull the vacum line off, and if gas comes out, the diaphram inside is leaking.

CognLac
01-06-04, 12:04 PM
where can i find the crankshaft position sensor? i was poking around looking for prices on a fuel pressure regulator and found this site. http://autos.msn.com/research/vip/Reliability.aspx?modelid=349&src=vip

Also because i just picked this car up 3 months ago and do not have its past history. should i just replace the spark plugs anyways? at lunch i will go out and try the fuel pressure regulator test. is it the small piece that the fuel lines go into? about the size of a quarter? I looked for the FPR and could not find it, do i have to remove the Beauty plastic cover? first

Logandiagnostic
01-06-04, 04:25 PM
The crankshaft sensors are in the center front of the engine...above the oil filter assembly. There are 2 different ones. A tan and then a black one.

I would check for a leaking regulator first. Easy and fast to do. Its also a common problem. The regulator should be mounted near the drivers side rear fuel injector.

Logan

CognLac
01-06-04, 04:26 PM
The crankshaft sensors are in the center front of the engine...above the oil filter assembly. There are 2 different ones. A tan and then a black one.

I would check for a leaking regulator first. Easy and fast to do. Its also a common problem. The regulator should be mounted near the drivers side rear fuel injector.

Logan

got ya Logan, do i have to remove the plastic cover? first, thanks for responding

Logandiagnostic
01-06-04, 04:32 PM
Yes...it would be easier to see if you pull the top cover.

Logan

CognLac
01-06-04, 04:51 PM
Yes...it would be easier to see if you pull the top cover.

Logan

OK fuel pressure reg is cool. i removed vaccuum line and nothing came out, had it off for about 10 sec, i pulled #4 spark plug and it looks werid, i asked around and people think its bad, carbon build up and right where the spark should come from on the little finger (scientific huh) looks like ther is a gray spot, above filiment. Is it as hard as it looks to change the rear plugs on this car?

Logandiagnostic
01-06-04, 04:55 PM
I actually have a image. #10 is the fuel pressure regulator...mounted on the fuel rail.

http://images.andale.com/f2/115/106/3768672/1075489769403_fuel.gif

Logan

Logandiagnostic
01-06-04, 05:02 PM
I'll check back...we are posting on top of each other......

CognLac
01-06-04, 05:06 PM
I actually have a image. #10 is the fuel pressure regulator...mounted on the fuel rail.

http://images.andale.com/f2/115/106/3768672/1075489769403_fuel.gif

Logan
Yes thats what i unplugged, this forums stuff is rad. i took out another plug and it looked pretty nasty. for 24 or so dollars I will replace tonight. now i also read to get the ac-delco plugs just like the ones that came out? it only had one finger, i think they touched this on the other thread thats this is better then the 3 or 4 bosch. am i correct?

CognLac
01-06-04, 08:42 PM
Good news, I think. I did my on board OBGII again and this time it came up with b 1341 which is DTC B1341 - Air Mix Door Two Movement Fault . If anyone could point me in the right direction on what to check i would appreciate it. It would be great if GM did not write these codes in Geekaneese.

Logandiagnostic
01-06-04, 09:09 PM
That code is not related to the hard start at all. Its a HVAC code-


B1341
The heater and A/C programmer supplies voltage to an internal motor. The internal motor drives the air mix door. The heater and A/C programmer monitors the air mix door position feedback from a sensor on the motor. If the air mix door is requested to move, but the feedback voltage does not change, the heater and A/C programmer stores DTC B1341. If the air mix door feedback indicates that the feedback is near the hot or cold extreme, the DTCdoes not set. Evaluate the operation of the air mix door through self diagnostics as described in the test description.

Conditions for Running the DTC
The commanded air mix door is greater than 0%.
The commanded air mix door is less than 76%.
Failure Conditions
The actual air mix door is not within 3% of the commanded air mix door position within approximately 60 seconds.

Notes On Intermittence
If an intermittent DTC B1341 is set, complete the following steps:

Connect a Scan Tool .
Select the snapshot data for the air mix door #2.
Note the value of the feedback and commanded position:
Use a Scan Tool override while monitoring the feedback value. Command the door to these positions.
Without turning the ignition off, inspect the air mix door linkage for any obstruction at these positions.
Test Description
Perform the Diagnostic System Check before continuing with the diagnosis of this DTC.

A Scan Tool allows for the direct control of the air mix door by observing the following conditions:

The air mix door position sensor feedback value
The value's difference from the air mix door commanded position value
These readings indicate a fault internal to the heater and A/C programmer in the air mix door sensor feedback.


Sounds like the FPR was ok....but the plugs looked pretty bad. Did you try a new set of plugs?

Logan

CognLac
01-06-04, 10:53 PM
Sounds like the FPR was ok....but the plugs looked pretty bad. Did you try a new set of plugs?

Logan

Tomorrow at lunch I will pick them up and install them. that sounds weird about the HVAC system. seems to work fine, i did have the passenger side blowing hot one day when i had it on cold, but that went away after 10 min or so of full blast cold. Has anyone heard of plugs causing a hard start and occasional stalling?

Logandiagnostic
01-07-04, 01:33 AM
Yes, the HVAC code is unrelated.

As for plugs and Northstars. If you work on them long enough.....you will see the car that comes in and will barely run....original plugs. Maybe 2-3 times. I did not mention plugs as being a possible issue. You did...sounds like they look pretty bad. New ones certainly wont hurt.

Being the FPR is ok...I would suggest inspecting the throttle body next. These by nature get extremely dirty. Carb cleaner and a old tooth brush will clean this.

Next would be clean the IAC!! Latter Cadillacs use a GM IAC speed control vs the earlier Cadillac 'only' ISC control motors. Cad techs are not use to seeing the carbon build up on the IAC. GM techs have seen it for 15 years. A dirty IAC can cause hard starts and stalls.


Theres a good afternoon of free diagnostic checks for you. After that check back if your still having a problem. Its then you start looking at the crank sensors etc. Have to get the basics working first.

Logan

CognLac
01-08-04, 01:18 PM
[QUOTE=Logandiagnostic]Yes, the HVAC code is unrelated.

As for plugs and Northstars. If you work on them long enough.....you will see the car that comes in and will barely run....original plugs. Maybe 2-3 times. I did not mention plugs as being a possible issue. You did...sounds like they look pretty bad. New ones certainly wont hurt.

Being the FPR is ok...I would suggest inspecting the throttle body next. These by nature get extremely dirty. Carb cleaner and a old tooth brush will clean this.

Hello, I changed all 8 plugs and removed the throttle body, actually i removed the black plastic tube and had my buddy hold the throttle open, and took a sock to it all. it was fairley gross in there and if i stuck my hand in far enough i think i got oil. but that makes sense i think. all of this with no luck :( how will i go about checking the other things?

Logandiagnostic
01-08-04, 02:53 PM
Ok....

new plugs
new fuel filter
FPR ok
clean throttle body

One more thing to clean on the throttle body. The IAC. It is #1 in the diagram. Clean both the tampered cone end....and look closely at the plunger shaft.....clean it also. Hopefully it will be filthy.

http://images.andale.com/f2/115/106/3768672/1075000183660_IAC.gif

Logan

CognLac
01-08-04, 03:20 PM
[QUOTE=Logandiagnostic]Ok....

One more thing to clean on the throttle body. The IAC. It is #1 in the diagram. Clean both the tampered cone end....and look closely at the plunger shaft.....clean it also. Hopefully it will be filthy.

http://images.andale.com/f2/115/106/3768672/1075000183660_IAC.gif

I will be able to do this tonight, is the plunger shaft on the IAC? is WD-40 something i can clean this with,

Logandiagnostic
01-08-04, 03:32 PM
The IAC stands for 'idle air control' valve.

The IAC has a shaft, spring, and cone shaped end. Carbon/dirt buildup can cause the shaft to get sticky and cause the car to stall.

I would not use WD40. I hope you did not use that on the throttle body. WD40 contains silicones which can contaminate O2 sensors. I would use either carb cleaner or brake cleaner.

As for the throttle body. I dont think a sock will clean it enough. You really need something like a old tooth brush. Both sides of the throttle plate need to be cleaned. Also all the way around the throttle bore.

Let us know how it turns out.

Logan

CognLac
01-08-04, 03:36 PM
The IAC stands for 'idle air control' valve.

I hope you did not use that on the throttle body. WD40 contains silicones which can contaminate O2 sensors. I would use either carb cleaner or brake cleaner.

Logan

I did not use WD-40, ok i will go back in there and scrub them all.

philthy
01-08-04, 05:42 PM
I just had my 96 Eldo with 57k on it at the dealer for the same thing. The dealer said it "could be" the fuel pressure regulator... but of course recommended starting with the $358 "emissions service", basically replacing air, fuel, pvc filters and cleaning the injectors. I declined and told him to replace the regulator for $150, since all of the internet posting board info pointed to that. The car runs great now, starts fine, and idles smoother than ever. In the spring I will replace all of the filters myself, and get the injectors cleaned for much less.

mike98c
01-08-04, 06:34 PM
For the fuel pressure regulator you might also want to pull the hose off, after the car has sat overnite and sniff for the smell of gas. My regulator was bad, but I didn't see fuel. Sniffing the hose though I could smell the gas. I replaced the fpr a few days later and the Aurora was cured.

I payed around fiftyfive dollars from the dealer after pointing out I could get it on the net for that price.

CognLac
01-08-04, 07:29 PM
For the fuel pressure regulator you might also want to pull the hose off, after the car has sat overnite and sniff for the smell of gas. My regulator was bad, but I didn't see fuel. Sniffing the hose though I could smell the gas. I replaced the fpr a few days later and the Aurora was cured.

I payed around fiftyfive dollars from the dealer after pointing out I could get it on the net for that price.

Awesome tip. I will try that tomorrow morning. do you think i gave it enough time when it was running (10 sec) for fuel to leak out if it was bad?

CognLac
01-10-04, 05:43 PM
[QUOTE=mike98c]For the fuel pressure regulator you might also want to pull the hose off, after the car has sat overnite and sniff for the smell of gas. My regulator was bad, but I didn't see fuel. Sniffing the hose though I could smell the gas.

I took your advice and first thing this morning i pulled the line off and could smell gas, so then i started the car and pulled the hose off again and WHALA gas came out after about 10 secconds. :) autozone laughed at me when i asked them if they had it in stock, 3 days but they wanted 89 dollars for it. If any gas comes out, its bad im assuming? I have no problems picking one up at the dealership Monday. Thanks for all the great advice everyone, I certainly could not have done any of this with out you.

CognLac
01-12-04, 11:30 AM
For the fuel pressure regulator you might also want to pull the hose off, after the car has sat overnite and sniff for the smell of gas. My regulator was bad, but I didn't see fuel. Sniffing the hose though I could smell the gas. I replaced the fpr a few days later and the Aurora was cured.

I payed around fiftyfive dollars from the dealer after pointing out I could get it on the net for that price.

Hey Mike, when you did your FPR did you have to get the FPR seal also. the dealer by me wanted 77.76 for just the FPR, after pointing out its half that on the net, he still said no, thats dealer cost. Did you replace it yourself, if yes any tips?

mike98c
01-12-04, 07:39 PM
Hey Mike, when you did your FPR did you have to get the FPR seal also. the dealer by me wanted 77.76 for just the FPR, after pointing out its half that on the net, he still said no, thats dealer cost. Did you replace it yourself, if yes any tips?The o-ring should come with the replacement. Wrap a rag around the regulator before removing the line and clip on the regulator as the fuel is under pressure, or use the shraeder valve on the rail with the same precautions to relieve the pressure. The valve will then come off with a tug. Be sure the old o-ring comes with or pick it out from the seat.

BeelzeBob
01-12-04, 11:16 PM
OK fuel pressure reg is cool. i removed vaccuum line and nothing came out, had it off for about 10 sec, i pulled #4 spark plug and it looks werid, i asked around and people think its bad, carbon build up and right where the spark should come from on the little finger (scientific huh) looks like ther is a gray spot, above filiment. Is it as hard as it looks to change the rear plugs on this car?

Did you remove the vacuum line from the FPR while the engine was idling?? If not, try the test again. Pull the vacuum line off the FPR while idling and watch the vacuum nipple on the FPR for fuel.

The EGR valves are pretty robust. Usually if an EGR valve sets the EGR code it just need cleaning. Take the valve off and clean the shaft of the valve that the pintle valve is on up inside the passage in the cast base of the valve. Carbon will build up on the shaft inside the passage and can restrict the opertion of the valve. Do NOT let solvent run up the shaft and into the can of the valve as it will ruin the windings inside the can.

CognLac
01-13-04, 09:49 AM
HELL YEA!! Well you all did it, i replaced the FPR and she started right up, after having a small geyser of gas, i put the clip on upside down. Thanks for everyone who put in there 2 cents, saved me plenty. Thanks again everyone