: need help with water pump.



cadillacgirl
02-19-06, 07:31 PM
hey guys i have a 98 cadallic deville i think the water pump is going out... its a slow leak... it isnt all rushing out... anyone out there changed one?? where is it?? what tools do i need etc??? if you could help it would be highly appreciated...

p.s. i ordered my manual but it hasnt came yet...

( is ranger here???)

Ranger
02-19-06, 07:45 PM
The water pump is on the rear of the engine (drivers side) driven off the intake cam by a small narrow belt. Look under the black belt shroud. You need a special pump socket. Here is a picture of one I made. http://www.geocities.com/grandolfo/
You can get a cheap stamped steel one from Lysle for about $20. I have heard some people say that they slip. A good machined one, like mine will run about $80 from Snap-On. Remember, it is cam locked, not threaded. It takes about 1/8 -1/4 turn clockwise to loosen it and the same counter clockwise to tighten it. Also I believe it only goes in one way, so look at it closely when you remove it. I think the tangs are unevenly spaced or something like that (I haven't had the need to use mine yet. I new making it would insure I'd never need it).

cadillacgirl
02-19-06, 07:47 PM
thanks ranger..

cadillacgirl
02-19-06, 08:02 PM
when you sang tangs are you talking about the ridges in the water pump???

cadillacgirl
02-19-06, 08:04 PM
my husband wants to know if you have a sematic for the tool that you made, with percise measurements and i have a friend who has a machine shop....

Ranger
02-19-06, 08:58 PM
Yes I do. Keep in mind that this is my drawing or notes. A real machinist may balk at this but it worked for me.
http://www.e-psycho.net/caddy/File0020.jpg

When I made mine, I took it to a local parts store and "test drove" it to be sure it fit properly before I welded the back plate and modified drive socket. I did 3 "test drives" and modifications but I think the numbers on the drawing are the final ones.

The water pump on the Northstar is just a cartridge, the impeller basically. Not the type of pump your husband is used to seeing.
I did some reasearch and I think there is an indexing tab at about 2 O'clock (on the pump, not the socket).

cadillacgirl
02-20-06, 01:46 AM
just a note to say thanks for all your help... :-)

cl1986
03-07-06, 08:27 PM
Ranger, how much to test drive your socket on my waterpump??

Im in SD

Thanks

Ranger
03-07-06, 09:43 PM
I think AutoZone will let you use them for free, or you can rent one here http://www.caddyinfo.com/toolrental.htm

cl1986
03-07-06, 09:56 PM
Oh, thats cool....

So if i order a waterpump, is it an impeller or do i get the whole housing??

If so, would advance have the upgrade gasket or seal i was reading about??

Ranger
03-07-06, 10:36 PM
On the Northstar, the water pump is basically just the impeller. The housing stays put. You do not want to change that, believe me. I am not sure if Advance has the upgraded gasket or not. I would think so but I got one from the dealer for about $10.

cl1986
03-11-06, 07:34 PM
Ok, all i got with the waterpump is a rubber o ring about 2-3" in diameter, they didnt have any other parts to buy. Is this all i need or do i need to go to the dealer. I stay clear of the dealer ever since i priced a leather seat bottom for my eldo for $680, just for the bottom one seat!!!!!!

Ranger
03-11-06, 07:45 PM
Go to the dealer and get the cover gasket. Like I said it is about $10. The "O" ring goes on the pully side. Do a search. Someone asked not long ago for the part number and I posted it. It is shaped somewhat like the silhouette of a snowman.

davestpierre
03-11-06, 10:44 PM
I got a good steel water pump tool from NAPA ,cost 27.00 pump 50.00 gaset about 10.00.To take out turn right ,put in turn left. I had to grind off a little of pump tang edges, to thick to get started to turn, i thought i was going to break the pump houseing.Make sure you put some vasoline to hold silicone gaset on pump cover. It took me about 2 hours including dexcool. Not to bad of a do your self job,save about $200 big ones.

cl1986
03-11-06, 11:35 PM
Ya, i found out they have the tool at sturdevants, $28 after i ordered one on ebay for $24. So i guess ill wait for it....

cl1986
03-15-06, 08:24 PM
Ok, now that i have disassembled stuff, it might just be the thermostat leaking.

If my pump is leaking, it would have to be on the pully side. The leak i saw might have been oil leaking. Is there any way coolant could leak on the pully side?? When do water pumps usually go out? Im at 82,000 and i have the tool, the pump, the gasket, the $20 locktite formagasket to add to the new gasket (caddie tech recommend it as they do it to all N* water pump seals) and the o ring sitting right here, but im pretty sure it was the thermostat. I was moving and yanking on the lower radiator hose and it started to leak out when i move the hose. Looks like the gasket if built into the thermostat.

Does this sound right??

Should i replace the pump anyway or save the $100 on all the stuff and get a new themostat? If i did change it, would it solve a leak on the pully side??

Car in pieces, need help....

Ranger
03-15-06, 09:46 PM
Yes, and bad pump can and usually will leak on the pully side. That is where the shaft seal is. No such thing as when they "usually" go. My '97 Deville had 107K and was original. Many others have had well over that, while others went much sooner. If you wiggled a hose and it leaked, that is where your leak is. If the hose is not ruptured or cracked, maybe it only needs to be tightened. Depends on where it's leaking from, the hose or the gasket. I do not think there is a gasket "built into" the thermostat housing but I do recall someone mentioning that the housings where redesigned. Maybe someone else can answer that. Personally, if the pump is not bad I would not replace it, but that is up to you since you have it apart. On the other hand, it is not hard to do if you have to go back and do it in another few months or years.

cl1986
03-15-06, 09:59 PM
Oh, the thermostat itself has the rubber gasket, the other peices are just raw metal, which i was dumbfoudned as how it sealed until i saw the thermostat.

The plate only having the two small bolts is what confuses me. It might just leak by bending the stiff hose side to side opposite the bolts even with a new gasket. Seems a little weak to me for holding up a cooling system....

Zorb750
03-16-06, 05:35 AM
Both housing and gasket were reworked.

The gasket redesign was later, say 1999 or 2000. The old gaskets are red, the new ones are black. The new one has more compressive strength so it won't go flat when squashed. Both gaskets are said to be reusable, my red one leaked. The black one is a visibly better design, and made of another material.

The housing redesign was somewhere around 1993-1994. If your pump housing's black, you need to change it to a new design for the 1993-1994 version of the Northstar V8 if you change the pump. I am uncertain as to when it was reworked, as my friend's 1994 Deville Concours has the regular design (very much like the 1995+ engine, takes same pump, not interchangeable.)

cl1986
03-16-06, 08:38 PM
Ok, well i have a black housing, why is it that i need to upgrade?? Ok, maybe not, its the housing part that u unbolt thats black, the actual housing is alluminum.

How in the %^&*#$ do you get the water pump out?? I was told reverse turn, and push in or out and it comes out. Well so far one of my prongs on my tool is bent and there is no turning what so ever either way.

The service manual is alot of help as it says to remove pump and install new one. Wow, i didnt know that!!!!!

Thought this was a very easy project.... Whats the deal here.....

Ranger
03-16-06, 09:44 PM
It turns clockwise (about 1/8 - 1/4 turn) to loosen and counter clockwise to tighten. I have heard that some, especially with green coolant can get corroded in place and an impact is helpfull to break them loose. Someone also once said that they use CLR to loosen it up.

The bent prong is one of the short comings of the cheaper stamped steel tools like Lysle.

cl1986
03-16-06, 10:36 PM
Well, i think the bent prong is due to the "stuck" of the water pump. It did take an impact to loosen it. If i would have just done that the tool would have been fine. It took my 1000ft lb ingersol to get it out. WTF!!! My other impact wouldnt do it...500ft lb....

Now, the new style gasket doesnt seem like its going to work, i cant get it to stay in the cover and im using the red gasket maker by lock tite. Do i need this newer style cover??

Theres no way the gasket is going to stay in that little groove, the old gasket was black, and about as big as the o ring for the pump. What do i do....

I thought this was easy to do, turns out to be the hardest water pump ive ever done. Done about ten water pumps on chevys......none of these required an impact wrench and most stuff comes out with a three foot cheater bar, but not this pump, have to use an impact.

Then u have to stick your head in there to put that lock tite where the o ring goes and you will have a mess by the time your done. I only did this because the red lock tite was there from the factory. Red goo i call it..

Ranger
03-16-06, 11:01 PM
Now, the new style gasket doesnt seem like its going to work, i cant get it to stay in the cover and im using the red gasket maker by lock tite. Do i need this newer style cover??

Theres no way the gasket is going to stay in that little groove, the old gasket was black, and about as big as the o ring for the pump. What do i do.....
Vasaline.

Zorb750
03-16-06, 11:53 PM
Well, i think the bent prong is due to the "stuck" of the water pump. It did take an impact to loosen it. If i would have just done that the tool would have been fine. It took my 1000ft lb ingersol to get it out. WTF!!! My other impact wouldnt do it...500ft lb....

Now, the new style gasket doesnt seem like its going to work, i cant get it to stay in the cover and im using the red gasket maker by lock tite. Do i need this newer style cover??

Theres no way the gasket is going to stay in that little groove, the old gasket was black, and about as big as the o ring for the pump. What do i do....

I thought this was easy to do, turns out to be the hardest water pump ive ever done. Done about ten water pumps on chevys......none of these required an impact wrench and most stuff comes out with a three foot cheater bar, but not this pump, have to use an impact.

Then u have to stick your head in there to put that lock tite where the o ring goes and you will have a mess by the time your done. I only did this because the red lock tite was there from the factory. Red goo i call it..

This was the easiest I have ever done. You haven't lived until you do the Jeep inline 6 in a 1993-1998 Grand Cherokee. :eek:

Better yet, 1998 740iL. Have to remove the crank pulley to do that one. :bonkers: I hope the one on the 750 never goes bad, or at least is easier than the 740 was.

Using the impact gun to get it off is REALLY stupid. You're likely to crack the housing, or maybe spin the pump insert around at a crazy rate, damaging it and the enclosure. It only turns 1/8 turn! Mine just took a good shove and came right out.

cl1986
03-17-06, 08:11 AM
Thats nice, but i did about 50 good shoves with a three foot bar, no dice, tried the 500ft lb impact and no dice, this thing was in there...... no other choice.

Put all back together and used the red stuff on the thermostat also...

Ill probrably have to redo everything as im sure it will leak somewhere....

Ranger
03-17-06, 11:11 AM
Using an impact is not "stupid". Sometimes it is neccassary as cl1986 found out. A little common sense is in order when using it. Just a short burst to break it loose for starters. I think I even remember our old guru mentioning that it may be needed on occassion, more so with the green coolant than with Dex.

Zorb750
03-17-06, 04:46 PM
Interesting. When I did mine I was warned specifically against doing that by a GM guy I know. He's one of the teardown guys that when a car's sent in because it malfunctioned badly or during development, they take it apart. He's about the best I know in terms of getting stuff apart nondestructively, even that which isn't supposed to come apart at all. He told me that one of those guys used just a quick tap with the impact gun and it spun the whole thing around and broke the housing.

Ranger
03-17-06, 09:08 PM
I suppose anything is possible Zorb and an impact would not be my first choice, but sometimes you just gotta call in artillary support.

cpoleary
04-24-06, 02:21 PM
Ok, so in my younger days I was a mechanic for about 15 years, now Iím into software testing. After careful research, reading all the comments here I decided this is something I could handle. So I bought the pump, new thermostat, hoses, gasket and the snap-on tool. Piece of cake right? WRONG! :mad: In fact the car is being towed to the garage now for a professional to put it back together.

This is without a doubt the toughest water pump Iíve ever worked on and Iíve done well over 50 of them in my lifetime on many different types of cars, trucks, tractors etc...

It took a lot of force to get the old one out. It had some corrosion but nothing I would consider excessive. Getting the new on in was impossible, it kept twisting one way or another. At one point it appeared to ďpopĒ into place but it was cocked and the tangs on one side caught and it went in crooked. Took it out and the tangs were bent on the pump. At this point I called it a day.

My only hope now is that I stopped before any damage was done to the housing. But just in case Iím getting prices on the cross-over before I get the good/bad news.

Ranger
04-24-06, 04:22 PM
While I have yet to R & R one, I am pretty sure there is an alignment tab somewhere on it and it needs to go in only one way. Perhaps that is where you went wrong. I hate stories like this. Victory was within reach. Such a shame.

cl1986
04-24-06, 05:54 PM
It was a major pain in the ass but i didnt give up either.... even after almost wrecking my tool..... i had to finish it.... but thats just me......i think ranger is right....you must have put it in in the wrong tab.... mine went in but still needed impact to tighten fully.....

chevelle
04-25-06, 02:27 PM
Trust me....if you have the water pump cover tabs into the correct slots....yes, there is a certain pattern to the slots and tangs.....it takes very little force to install the water pump. If you have to use much force it is going in wrong. Stop and check. There is absolutely no need to use an impact to install the water pump into the water crossover.

If one just looks at the water pump cover it is intuitively obvious to even the most casual observer that there is a pattern to the tabs. That is a hint that the water pump cover indexes into the water crossover tabs a certain way. Stick the seal to the groove in the water crossover with vasoline, lubricate the cover with a little coolant and simply clock it into place.

Sorry, but if you screwed this up you should stick to fixing software. You lost the touch. It is about the easiest water pump in the world to replace. The results reported shouldn't dissaude anyone from doing this theirself if they have even the smallest modicum of technical expertise. Too many people have done it successfully for it to be difficult. And, yes, I have replaced them myself many times.

cl1986
04-25-06, 07:42 PM
Sorry chevelle you are wrong......

Its not an easy pump, it did require an impact for some people including me, all you have to due to reread the posts instead of coming in later and only reading the last thing....happens all the time....re read the post!!!!!

You replaced yours several times??? Hmmm, maybe you didnt do it right.....

Ranger
04-25-06, 08:05 PM
I have heard of people needing an impact for removal but not for instalation. I think that is what Chevelle was refering to. Are you refering to removal or instalation cl1986?

dkozloski
04-25-06, 08:24 PM
chevelle, there are some people that shouldn't mess with 'chinery.

cl1986
04-25-06, 09:18 PM
Mine was pretty bad for corosion and deposits, i needed the impact for removal and install.....

chevelle
04-25-06, 09:26 PM
Sorry chevelle you are wrong......

Its not an easy pump, it did require an impact for some people including me, all you have to due to reread the posts instead of coming in later and only reading the last thing....happens all the time....re read the post!!!!!

You replaced yours several times??? Hmmm, maybe you didnt do it right.....


duh....I replaced many different Northstar water pumps. I've never actually had to replace MINE.

If you have the correct tool and a breaker bar there is simply no need for an impact. Maybe you need better tools.

Sorry for being curt but don't blame the car or the design for your mechanical inabilities. There are many many posts on this and other forums for many years about how easy the water pump on the Northstar is to change. I have been around these forums and the Northstar for much longer than most anyone reading this and I rarely if ever hear of someone having that much trouble with the water pump....especially being unable to install one. Granted they can take some force to remove after many years but a breaker bar and a 4 foot piece of pipe is far more effective than an impact in that situation. Once removed they are a piece of cake to install. Anyone that can't figure out to do more than apply more force when it won't go doesn't get much sympathy from me.

BTW....I've never had a comeback or problem with a Northstar pump I replaced. Never. Besides, if you really think that replacing a Northstar water pump is a bitch then you haven't done much automotive mechanical work. It is a 1 on a scale of 10 in terms of difficulty. If you had trouble with it maybe you should skip the shift solenoid job....LOL.

Seriously, I don't mean to get into anyone's face over this but I hate for people reading this post wanting info on replacing their water pump to think that it is THAT hard. It isn't. It is the easiest water pump in the world to replace.

cl1986
04-26-06, 10:35 AM
LOL!! ya i was just being a smart ass....thats the way u said it in your post..... but agian....re read the post. i had a 4 foot breaker bar and put all my weight on it as i jumped towards the bar.... it did not even budge.... so if you read the post u will find out that i had to use the impact........

If you were here and did my pump u would understand.... but you werent here.....

Im just warning people out there that this may not be easy.... you on the other hand had ALL easy pumps....were any of them using green coolant?? Again re read the entire post and you will find out.....

I have done all kinds of mechanical work on mostly gm products so that doesnt mean shit because this water pump was a bitch..

I just got done with my jeep project putting front and rear lockers, replace both front axle shaft because i sheared the brand new u joints and replaced them with the HD ones, cut out the rusted frame parts welded in new parts, made various brackets and mounts, put new lockout hubs since those broke also....ya i know im hard on this thing but its a toy and that what we do...

Besides all that i do all the other mechanical work on my other 8 vehicles including struts, pumps, alt, trannys, exhaust, rejetting carbs, and so on and on and this water pump was still a bitch....

eldorado1
04-26-06, 10:49 AM
HA!

You guys have NO idea what a hard water pump is. So what if the northstar takes a 10' cheater bar, at least it's right there in front of you.

The Mitsubishi 3.0 V6 on the other hand....... You have to support the engine with a jack, remove an engine mount, remove all the accessories including alt, PS, AC, remove the crank pulley, remove the HARMONIC BALLANCER, remove the TIMING COVER(!!!), remove the timing belt, and THEN, and ONLY THEN, can you remove the water pump.

Yeah, it's buried... just a little. :thepan:

(PS - stupidest engine ever)

cart69
04-26-06, 01:40 PM
HA!

You guys have NO idea what a hard water pump is. So what if the northstar takes a 10' cheater bar, at least it's right there in front of you.

The Mitsubishi 3.0 V6 on the other hand....... You have to support the engine with a jack, remove an engine mount, remove all the accessories including alt, PS, AC, remove the crank pulley, remove the HARMONIC BALLANCER, remove the TIMING COVER(!!!), remove the timing belt, and THEN, and ONLY THEN, can you remove the water pump.

Yeah, it's buried... just a little. :thepan:

(PS - stupidest engine ever)

yea but it isnt a bad engine in the same sense, i used to be a tech for mitsu. 3000gt vr4's are worse in my opinion. the caddy pump isnt horrible, but like any thing a super easy job can easily turn into a nightmare!! although i have never done this job i do have a spare pump sitting around and i have an N* on the engine stand so i am sure it would be easy for me because the n* wouldnt fit my engine stand with the crossover on so the crossover is laying on my bench!!! LOL i think everything i have done with the sevilles so far has been pretty easy and straight forward, i dropped the engines in both my old 94 sls and my new 96 sts and swapped out the motor on the 96, i have yet to do the head bolt repair on my 96's removed motor since i bought a new motor for 450bucks but they seem to be a good designed car and generally not hard to work on

oh yea chrysler 3.5 water pump gotta pull the front and timing belt and all to change but all in all not a hard job just time consuming!! make sure the timing is right before complete reassembly too, that got me on the first one i did!!

cpoleary
04-27-06, 10:19 AM
Ok, got the car back and it only cost $200.00 since the mechanic used my parts, (thermostat, hoses, and antifreeze).

One thing he did notice we the tool I got from Snap-on was a little shorter then his from Snap-on. This caused the pump to slightly rock in the housing; this was 1 of the problems. The other is the pump is keyed, he indicated it was at the 1 oíclock position, I guess this wasnít oblivious to me. The install instructions that came with the pump were for a conventional WP so they were no help. Not sure if the FSM states this because Iím still waiting for mine to come in. The WP just didnít hold on until it got here.

There also was a fare amount of corrosion on it that also hindered the removal for me and the installation for him.

Believe me, Iíve done this stuff for a long time and it was not easy to admit defeat. Taking the power tools to it really never was a consideration on my part, due to the soft metals involved and the risk. So in the end it may be easier then originally though and Iíd attempt it again.

I just wanted to share the experience.

Remember: "Experience is what you get when you don't get what you want."
- Dan Stanford.

dkozloski
04-27-06, 10:44 AM
Experience is what you have left after you've ruined everything you own. Been there! Done that!
- Dave Kozloski

Dooman
04-27-06, 10:46 AM
Ok, got the car back and it only cost $200.00 since the mechanic used my parts, (thermostat, hoses, and antifreeze).

One thing he did notice we the tool I got from Snap-on was a little shorter then his from Snap-on. This caused the pump to slightly rock in the housing; this was 1 of the problems. The other is the pump is keyed, he indicated it was at the 1 oíclock position, I guess this wasnít oblivious to me. The install instructions that came with the pump were for a conventional WP so they were no help. Not sure if the FSM states this because Iím still waiting for mine to come in. The WP just didnít hold on until it got here.

There also was a fare amount of corrosion on it that also hindered the removal for me and the installation for him.

Believe me, Iíve done this stuff for a long time and it was not easy to admit defeat. Taking the power tools to it really never was a consideration on my part, due to the soft metals involved and the risk. So in the end it may be easier then originally though and Iíd attempt it again.

I just wanted to share the experience.

Remember: Experience is what you get when you don't get what you want.
- Dan Stanford.

Glad you got it done correctly. I am here in Mass also and had my local mechanic do mine, unfortunately he found my headgasket was leaking while he had it though.

chevelle
04-27-06, 11:45 AM
"Experience is a wonderful thing......too bad you have to get old to get it..."

dkozloski
04-27-06, 01:04 PM
Youth is such a precious thing. Too bad it has to be wasted on young people.
-Mark twain

99DevilleDe'Elegance
05-08-06, 12:42 AM
I also embarked upon this journey. I would have to say that removal was a bit tricky but space provided was plenty and easily reachable. 3/4 drive ratchet with my high lift jack handle and the right trajectory and it popped right out... on about the fifth try. Mine was another case of mixed antifreeze too.
The install was real slick. if you read in the Haynes manual it tells you that there is one offset tang at 7 o'clock (or I guess 1 o'clock if you are looking at it upside down?).
The worst part for me was getting the rear o-ring seal to stay in place while I was futzing around getting the pump seated initially. But after that; it locked in on the first try and that was the end of that.
If anyone needs a manual I have 2 of them. Tends to make things a bit easier.
This was a foriegn concept to me at first, but you must admit that it really is a brilliant feat of engineering.
As for a jeep 4.0L water pump. Peice of cake can and has been done in minutes roadside! All the tools you need fit in one pocket.

96-deville-man
05-08-06, 01:23 PM
I did my water pump on my 96. im 15 and this was the first water pump ive ever done. only trouble i had was getting the old one out. at 135pounds you cant just jump on a breaker bar lol but one hit with the impact and it was free. yes you have to line it up it only goes in one way. this water pump is EASY. Anyone in my area who thinks they cant handle it them selves can come on over and ill give them a hand.

packrat427
05-08-06, 01:27 PM
I also embarked upon this journey. I would have to say that removal was a bit tricky but space provided was plenty and easily reachable. 3/4 drive ratchet with my high lift jack handle and the right trajectory and it popped right out... on about the fifth try. Mine was another case of mixed antifreeze too.
The install was real slick. if you read in the Haynes manual it tells you that there is one offset tang at 7 o'clock (or I guess 1 o'clock if you are looking at it upside down?).
The worst part for me was getting the rear o-ring seal to stay in place while I was futzing around getting the pump seated initially. But after that; it locked in on the first try and that was the end of that.
If anyone needs a manual I have 2 of them. Tends to make things a bit easier.
This was a foriegn concept to me at first, but you must admit that it really is a brilliant feat of engineering.
As for a jeep 4.0L water pump. Peice of cake can and has been done in minutes roadside! All the tools you need fit in one pocket.


That is too funny That is the same tool I used ,BIG retchet and a handle off my Snap On jack ,and it was bending before it popped loose.:)

chevelle
05-08-06, 03:25 PM
I did my water pump on my 96. im 15 and this was the first water pump ive ever done. only trouble i had was getting the old one out. at 135pounds you cant just jump on a breaker bar lol but one hit with the impact and it was free. yes you have to line it up it only goes in one way. this water pump is EASY. Anyone in my area who thinks they cant handle it them selves can come on over and ill give them a hand.



So now if we can just find a 15 year old GIRL to change one we can PROVE beyond a shadow of a doubt that it is an easy water pump change.....LOL LOL

Zorb750
05-09-06, 08:52 AM
...
As for a jeep 4.0L water pump. Peice of cake can and has been done in minutes roadside! All the tools you need fit in one pocket.

Not quite. On the Grand Cherokee it's a major pain. Wranglers are easy. It has to do with clearance and accessibility, and the way the fan and fan shrowd attach and come off.

Loose screw
05-13-06, 03:04 AM
94 Concours with 150K water pump was very corided plus something different - the old pump was not fully turn counter clockwise (this is the direction the belt turns the pumps so it won't get rotated during operating)the turbine was only halfway in, half spring tabs were still showing, but it wasn't going anywhere the trubine was diffinitely stuck in tight. The picture below show the special tool (AutoZone's GM water pump tool) I barrowed ($30 refundable on return) which worked fine with the use of the stubby 1/2 inch rachet shown (cheep form HaborFright, I abuse them but they just keep working despite all I do to them) and a 4 foot cheater pipe attached. But I almost gave up and was reaching for the blow touch to heat it up before trying again but I gave it one more extra hard try and it turned. After removal, corrosion could be seen where the turbine touched the housing and in the O-ring grove. It is still hard to believe how stuck it was. (I recomend heat it up good if you are not going to use it) The O-ring was removed but red can still be seen in the grove in the picture below. I used a tiny flat screw drivers and a small wire brush that I heated and bent the handle on to help get in to the area. The O-ring grove needs carefull attention. After a real careful cleaning I took a picture and as you can see in the bright picture (I turn on the cameras light) the metal of the housing was eaten away alittle on edges and still more deposits, corrosion and even a little red can be still seen around the grove at the bottom. So I cleaned it again and again. Afterward I coated the grove and contact area and the O-ring well with a non-harding sealant which drys to a sticky gel and helps to hold the o-ring in place (I tried to find some Hylomar but no one carries it any more I wonder why) so I had to use some other stuff made by Permatex, a non-harding sealant for rubber gaskets and O-rings - it's new and it felt and worked very much like their Hylomar sealant except it was gray. I removed all the extra then coated the back side of the contact plate of the turbine with a thin coat to assure it would seal but also to prevent more corrosion and to allow easier disassembly if needed down the road. I think this a very good idea from what I have read and seen. With the notch at 12 oclock the turbine turned and locked into place firmly and smoooooothly. The non-harding sealant acting also as a lubricant. I could not get the right gasket for the water pump cover, the car had the old black composite design with a small O-ring grove and the new gaskets are made for the metals ones that have a much deeper grove. Well the old one was working fine and it is easy to replace if I have a problem with it and I didn't want to spent the $47 bucks for it and the matching gasket. So I coated the grove, gasket and cover contact surfaces with a little Permatex speacial silicone water pump sealant. (which takes 24 hourse to fully cure) and put it all back together and let it sit dry over night with the bold a little mor than snug and will tighten a 1/2 turn more in the morning and then I'm done. There is always more than one good way to do a job right. The last one water pump appeared to be oringinal and lasted 150k I wonder how long this installation will last.

99DevilleDe'Elegance
05-14-06, 10:05 AM
Wow 150,000 miles. Did yours come from the factory with the orange anti-freeze? My 99 Deville only made it 80,000. Then again; some idiot mixed the orange anti-freeze with non-universal green anti-freeze. This combo proceeded to eat and corrode every gasket and seal it came in contact with!
Everytime I replaced one another would start to leak.
Don't mix anit-freeze!!!!!!!

Ranger
05-14-06, 08:59 PM
Both green and Dex are glycol based anti freeze. I do not believe mixing them will produce some gasket eating elixure. That is not to say that mixing them is recomended.

Zorb750
05-14-06, 11:36 PM
Both green and Dex are glycol based anti freeze. I do not believe mixing them will produce some gasket eating elixure. That is not to say that mixing them is recomended.

The early red stuff would become corrosive under certain conditions, lose its corrosion inhibiting abilities under other conditions, and if mixed with conventional green stuff, form solid particles or even mud or putty like stuff. It was bad.

The newer red coolant does not do this, nor do any non Texaco* red coolants (Prestone for one)

*EDIT: Texaco or Havoline branded coolants

99DevilleDe'Elegance
05-15-06, 04:29 AM
Both green and Dex are glycol based anti freeze. I do not believe mixing them will produce some gasket eating elixure. That is not to say that mixing them is recomended.
That may be true of the currrent versions, but that is not the issue with the factory mix. The issue is a matter of sicilates. One type uses silicone additives to assist in cooling and the others don't. When you mix them it turns to something like coagulated milk.

Zorb750
05-15-06, 04:33 PM
That may be true of the currrent versions, but that is not the issue with the factory mix. The issue is a matter of sicilates. One type uses silicone additives to assist in cooling and the others don't. When you mix them it turns to something like coagulated milk.

The silicates don't assist in cooling, they inhibit corrosion, and it doesn't work as well on aluminum.

99DevilleDe'Elegance
05-16-06, 09:15 AM
Yes, their main purpose may be for corrosion resistance, but silicone in and of itself has a high natural ability to tollerate and transfer heat. This is probably the reason it was chosen for the solution.

99DevilleDe'Elegance
05-16-06, 10:30 AM
Glad you got it done correctly. I am here in Mass also and had my local mechanic do mine, unfortunately he found my headgasket was leaking while he had it though.
This is the same issue I had. I drove it for a while with no problems. It then started getting hot while at stop lights. I started by replacing the bad waterpump, thermostat and hoses. It still got hot with no leak from waterpump, housings or hoses; but I started finding little pools of antifreeze here and there. At this point with coolant leak problems and the $2300 tranny overdrive issue; I decided to trade it in on a new Subaru.

dboncio99
05-16-06, 11:37 AM
I just did mine. It was really stuck in there. It is clockwise turn to release it. I had to get a breaker bar on the socket to break it loose.

JaxxMan
06-10-06, 10:19 AM
Can anyone confirm this is the right way to see if your water pump is toast ?

First checked that the purge line was clear ? OK

Based on the FSM looking at the coolant path I disconnected the heater core lines and attached longer hoses and put them in a container. Then started the car hoping to see the coolant start filling the jugs. Nothing showed up. :wtf:

I also removed the removed the belt to make sure the pump pulley was spinning freely. OK
I also added some addition tension to the belt while it was running to make sure the belt wasn't slipping.

Are the impellers of the pump some type of plastic and could break causing this ?

I am getting an error message " Engine coolant hot " so I shut of the car.

History: I just completed a HG job about 1000 miles ago. Car history unknown.
TIA Jaxx

Ranger
06-10-06, 11:02 AM
No, the impeller is steel not plastic. If you pull the purge line at the surge tank and coolant spits out at idle or flows at higher idle, then the pump is working fine. Usually a pump will leak when bad, but rarely will it not pump coolant.

If the thermostat was closed (engine cold), that may be the reason you did not get a flow from the heater lines.

Did you Timesert the head bolt holes when you did the head gaskets?

cl1986
06-10-06, 11:09 AM
Well it looks as if i replaced my water pump for no reason.... it turned out to be the line that goes to the water pump underneath the EGR.....

You really do not want this to leak, what a pain in the ass, cant get to anything down there......then there is the damn 7 mm bolt that holds the two steel lines together by the firewall, had to spend $50 on a rachet wrench set to get that out and no way is it going back in there.... no room what so ever...

JaxxMan
06-10-06, 12:24 PM
Ranger
Yes I Timeserted all 20 holes, I guess you don't remeber me Ranger.
I'm the guy who posted the info about the ARP studs, here's a pic:
http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/attachments/northstar-performance-technical-discussion/19294-broken-head-bolt-small-type-studs.jpg?d=1144330694

I know it's not the head gasket, it was done right. I perfomed compression and leak down test already with no issues.

I have no heat in the car and the coolant level was OK so at first I thought it was a blocked heater core. I attached a hose and funnel to the top of the core and poured some deionized water in, it came out as fast as it went it.

I guess I have a blockage somewhere else in the system because the lines to the core don't even get hot, and it throwing the " Engine Coolant Hot " error code and even " Stop Engine " code once.

I'm thinking I have to look at the thermostat area next. Anyone else have these symptoms?

JaxxMan
06-10-06, 04:02 PM
Found the problem!, looks like the heater core after all.
I bypassed it and figured out how to access the PCM live data and the coolant temp was between 100-108 degrees C for over an hour at idle.

I'll have to see if I can flush it clean before I connect all the hoses again.
Thx for your time everyone.