: Where do the horsepower wars go from here?



Blackout
02-15-06, 05:37 PM
This is a great time in the automotive world with the horsepower wars we have going on now. But my question is where do we go form here? We have 300 hp 4 cylinder cars, 500+ hp V8's, a 1000 hp car straight from the factory, 400+ hp full sized sedans, etc. There are rumors going around that in 2008 the Viper will be getting a new engine that might be getting 700 hp. So when is enough enough? As we know, when it comes to performance then the price tag goes up as well. Chevy just brought out the new Z06, Ford is coming out with the Shelby GT500, the Viper is getting a new power plant in the not to distant future. The new Z06 is priced at $65k, the Viper is priced at $85,745 the GT500 hasn't been priced yet but they're claiming a price in the $40k range. Now as much as people crap on the Mustang for not being the fastest and not being the best in every catagory I think that Ford is going about this the best out of all the car companies. The Vette has been bumped up in hp in every new generation by a decent amount while the Mustang gets mild hp boosts. So where does GM go with the Vette? Where does Dodge go with the Viper? Ford atleast has the Mustang at a modest 300 hp so they still have plenty of room to play around with when it comes to the GT. But with the Vette getting into the mid $60k range how does Chevy keep buyers coming back when with each new car the costs get bigger and bigger. When will GM get to the point that people won't be willing to shell out $70k, $80k, etc. The Viper with its next gen might be priced the same or maybe approaching if not in the $90k range. So will the end of the hp wars come due to the price tag? The car that seems to have the brightest future seems to be the Mustang since its price is quite reasonable. You can still get a brand new Mustang GT for $26k. I just happened to be thinking about this today so I am interested in seeing as to what you guys have to think about this as well.

slk230mb
02-15-06, 05:47 PM
I think Ford is on the right track with a lot of horsepower for not a lot of cash. Hopefully the trend will be so that high horsepower becomes standard and then the prices slowly start to drop. I know that's wishful thinking on my part, but hey, you never know.

davesdeville
02-15-06, 06:12 PM
I can't imagine the price stopping the HP wars. People want more power, companys want people to buy their cars... I really think once we get to the 750hp range the government regulators might step in...

I~LUV~Caddys8792
02-15-06, 06:23 PM
It's funny how everyone looks back at the horsepower wars from 67-71 and says "those were the days" and nowadays, 4 cylinder cars (albeit turboed) are making the same amount of hp as a SS396 Camaro. And they can return 5-8 MPG better in city. Actually, when you consider that that was 325 gross hp, and now we have 300hp net, thats actually more hp! Its nuts! All the same and more for the new V8's and V6's!

Spyder
02-15-06, 06:36 PM
Yea, but I'd much rather have ANYTHING with a 440 than the dang 4 cylinder cars...

:D

I~LUV~Caddys8792
02-15-06, 06:51 PM
Yea, but I'd much rather have ANYTHING with a 440 than the dang 4 cylinder cars...

:D

Exactly, much more soul

Florian
02-15-06, 07:37 PM
Automotive News today announced that there will be another Vette with more HP than the current Z06......where do I put my deposit money?


F

CIWS
02-15-06, 07:43 PM
What happens to it all if gas hit 5.00 a gallon in 2 years (or less) because of natural disasters or we get into a situation with Iran ?

Blackout
02-15-06, 07:48 PM
Automotive News today announced that there will be another Vette with more HP than the current Z06......where do I put my deposit money?


FYour probably talking about the Blue Devil. I haven't heard if it will make production or not. But its an F/I'd engine (can't remember if it's TT'd or blown) and will cost $100k+

peterb
02-15-06, 08:48 PM
What happens to it all if gas hit 5.00 a gallon in 2 years
Ha - try coming over to the UK and paying our gas prices! It costs me 60 - 70 to fill my RS6 ($104 - $122). That gets me about 350 miles!

Florian
02-15-06, 08:54 PM
Your probably talking about the Blue Devil. I haven't heard if it will make production or not. But its an F/I'd engine (can't remember if it's TT'd or blown) and will cost $100k+

Already being driven in Detroit (digitalcorvette.com) and is likely to be either 8.1L pushrod or DOHC F/I setup. (Engine Code LS9) 100K is dead on.


F

Blackout
02-15-06, 09:53 PM
Already being driven in Detroit (digitalcorvette.com) and is likely to be either 8.1L pushrod or DOHC F/I setup. (Engine Code LS9) 100K is dead on.


FThe last I heard about the car they had some pics of it doing laps around the Nuremburgring. I haven't really been paying attention to it too closely so I don't know a whole lot about it. But seeing that your on digital corvettes I guess you have seen this

http://www.digitalcorvettes.com/corvette-photos/data/703/Corvette-LS9.jpg

Florian
02-15-06, 11:14 PM
yup....same place I got the info.


F

dbdartman
02-16-06, 12:05 AM
Yea, but I'd much rather have ANYTHING with a 440 than the dang 4 cylinder cars...

:D

You know that this engine, in it's high preformance trim (from the factory), only made 375 HP (at the flywheel with no accessories), right? You can make more HP from a turbo 4-banger. One thing that 4-banger will NEVER do is make torque, & THAT'S what gets you from 0-60. In stock form that same 440 (7.2L for you guys "over there") makes a mind-bending 450 ft/lbs of torque! :eek: Take that same engine, replace the 3.75" crank with a 4.15" crank, carb, intake, cam & some head work, & you're making over 500 HP & over 600 lb.ft! :holycrap: :thumbsup: Then you'll make more torque at IDLE than that turbo 4-lunger will make at any speed! :yup:

Torque RULES & horse power is just a marketing tool.

I~LUV~Caddys8792
02-16-06, 01:32 AM
Torque RULES & horse power is just a marketing tool.

Exactly!

Too bad so many people are too naive to know that. People will think that their Hondas with the VTEC is tough shit because it makes 200hp at 7800 RPM and like 143 lb/ft. They think horsepower is everything. But like you said, its just Marketing. I can almost guarantee you, that my 4.9 powered deville would be able to beat a stock Civic SI in 1st gear due to my enormous amount of low end power. And I dont just mean my 4.9. The N*, the 302, the LT1, the Intech, etc etc. Low end power always wins out. Atleast in the beginning.

hardrockcamaro@mac.c
02-17-06, 03:07 AM
Ha - try coming over to the UK and paying our gas prices! It costs me 60 - 70 to fill my RS6 ($104 - $122). That gets me about 350 miles!

I dream of that!
It costs me 60 - 65 to fill the STS and I only got 215miles out of that the last time! (good old London commuter traffic!)

davesdeville
02-17-06, 03:41 AM
The last I heard about the car they had some pics of it doing laps around the Nuremburgring. I haven't really been paying attention to it too closely so I don't know a whole lot about it. But seeing that your on digital corvettes I guess you have seen this

http://www.digitalcorvettes.com/corvette-photos/data/703/Corvette-LS9.jpg

Is there anything that proves the 6.0 DOHC motor is for the Corvette? Was just thinking maybe it could be a new Caddy motor that could shut a few people up on here...

Katshot
02-17-06, 05:42 AM
Chevrolet has already announced the "super" Corvette with the supercharged engine. Will it come to a Cadillac also? I doubt it. Cadillac has made it clear that a "Chevy" engine is okay for the CTS-V but they want Cadillac power in their more "premium" Cadillacs.
As for the topic of the thread, I think this excalation in horsepower has done exactly what the OEMs wanted. Provided room for a new mid-priced car.
Cars like the Corvette and Viper have moved up in price to a point where there is now room for a more conservatively priced performance car. Can you say Camaro and Challenger? MOPAR has had this wiggle room for a while but Chevrolet has only recently given itself this breathing space to (IMO) make way for a new car. Hopefully, they learned from the last days of the "F" body cars that they needed to have a better seperation between the Corvette and it's lesser cousins. I really think that's a big part of what killed the "F" body cars. They priced themselves out of the game. As their performance grew, so did their price and by the end, they were starting to crowd the base model Corvette pricewise.
So now we have 500hp Corvettes and Vipers, which gives the OEMs room to have fun with some 400hp cars.

davesdeville
02-17-06, 06:24 AM
Chevrolet has already announced the "super" Corvette with the supercharged engine. Will it come to a Cadillac also? I doubt it. Cadillac has made it clear that a "Chevy" engine is okay for the CTS-V but they want Cadillac power in their more "premium" Cadillacs.

Don't mean to get too far off topic but when/where did they announce that? Seems like I'd have heard of it at some point but I guess I'm out of the loop. I dunno if they're opposed to a Chevy motor, just a pushrod Chevy motor. And if the motor is 'Vette ONLY it would at least retain some exclusiveness.

Blackout
02-17-06, 06:28 AM
Well seeing that the engine they were talking about is a LS9 with a S/C I highly doubt you will find that engine making its way into a Caddy. But who knows. Maybe they'll bring back the Fleetwood and toss that motor in there:bouncy:

Katshot
02-17-06, 06:37 AM
Yes, it will be an LS9 and it's reported to be cranking out 650hp at the flywheel in stock trim.
I "may" have aggagerated slightly when I said they "announced" it. They actually "leaked" it to the press. But it HAS been confirmed that there will be three levels of performance in the new supercharged LS series. The LS9 high-output intercooled for the Corvette will have "around" 650hp, the LS8 medium output intercooled will make around 500hp, and another "unknown" LSX designation that is non-intercooled.
Apparently, the low-output "mystery" engine is likely to be the new engine in the next Escalade.

Florian
02-17-06, 09:48 AM
Apparently, the low-output "mystery" engine is likely to be the new engine in the next Escalade.

That "mystery" engine is the 6.2L alum. block/heads for the GM truck segment. It has 11.0 compression, forged internals, etc. It is designated L92.
There is also the L72 which is a lower compression 9.4:1 which with the above forged internals, 6.2L and alum block/heads which is reported to be fitted to a blower (likely Eaton) for either the 'mid' or the high level Vette.

F

Katshot
02-17-06, 11:18 AM
That "mystery" engine is the 6.2L alum. block/heads for the GM truck segment. It has 11.0 compression, forged internals, etc. It is designated L92.
There is also the L72 which is a lower compression 9.4:1 which with the above forged internals, 6.2L and alum block/heads which is reported to be fitted to a blower (likely Eaton) for either the 'mid' or the high level Vette.

F

L92 (Engine in the '06 Escalade) - This engine produces 403 hp (301 kW) and 417 ftlbf (565 Nm). Good but nothing special IMO. Especially compared to the engine I just mentioned in my previous post.
I've heard nothing about a "L72". You have any info on it I can read?

MCaesar
02-26-06, 03:27 PM
GM is in great shape with a lot of great engines.

Chrysler is in pretty good shape as well as the hemi still is not tapped out. They need to replace the Viper's V10 though for it to stay in the game since the cheaper Z06 whips its tail. Perhaps they can make a V12 based on the hemi architecture since the current V10 is based on the decades old 340/360 small block.

Ford is in deep doo doo though. The modular V8 was designed wrong with bore sizes too small to get any real displacement without an overly long stroke. That means they have to put blowers on all their motors to keep up with Chrysler and GM. It is similar to the Northstar - they were good motors for their time but cubic inches rule.