: Automatic vs. Manual



itsabughunt
02-14-06, 02:55 PM
I'm wondering if some of the more knowledgeable folks around here could help me understand some fundamentals. It seems to me that manual transmissions are generally regarded as being "superior" to automatics at least for performance reasons. Is that true? Why is that? Can humans simply shift faster than a machine or something? I'm afraid I dont really have an adequate understanding of how transmissions work so maybe thats the problem. I know that a manual uses a friction plate against the flywheel and I understand that automatics use electronics and hydraulic circuits to control a torque converter but thats about as far as my knowledge goes. I can operate a manual but I'm used to an old pick-up truck and I've barely ever driven a fast car with a stick. I dont know really anything about racing in a sports car.

Are there any automatics that are actually faster than the manual available in the same car? Do people race with automatics? Also, I've always felt like having a manual transmission meant that you will have to get the clutch changed out someday but now that I think about it I know several people who had to put a new automatic in their vehicle too. Would you say that one particular type of transmission is generally more reliable than the other?

OK, thanks for any insight into things.

mccombie_5
02-14-06, 03:06 PM
An auto trans is mostly designed for a smooth, lazy shift, whereas a manual shift is more aggressive, and NEEDS to be faster or you screw the clutch.

Manual trans are much simpler to repair and repalce clutches on, and they are also cheaper.

Most cars in the UK are manual, very few regular cars are auto, tends to jsut be luxo cars, or typical old man cars, but most of those are still manual.

Clutches can last up to 150,000 miles or more, which for a clutch isnt at all bad, it may go a bit soggy (I remember last eyar dad telling my to reverse the old Rover up the drive and the drive is on a slight incline, and the clutch wasnt even strong enough to pull the car up it (it cant be more than 2 or 3 increase) and the car, despite being in reverse gear, rolled forwards.

Manuals also tend to have a lower fuel consumption.

elwesso
02-14-06, 03:21 PM
The basic difference is that an automatic transmission uses the oscillation of ATF throughout the tranny to move the car, and a manual transmisison uses gears...

Automatic transmissions can shift faster than humans, this is why people who build hardcore drag cars often go with automatics... Powerglides and turbo400 transmissions...

MT's have less frictional losses, which is often why they get better fuel mileage.

gothicaleigh
02-14-06, 03:46 PM
Slushboxes (not the crazy drag-car automatics elwesso mentioned above which are closer described as a manual that is shifted by a computer) also are known to cause more power loss than manuals. While newer versions shift faster than humanly possible and use computerized formulas to imitate manual shifts, a true manual is still the choice for performance cars due to the superior control it gives you.

And the best reason: manuals are simply more fun. :D

PAW 47
02-14-06, 04:22 PM
Well back in the day 60's-70's street drags the thing to have was the Powerglides, T-400's, 727's Torqueflights dodge use to use. Yeah you could row your own with the hurst shifters. Back then a slush box could own a manny.

I've used both in racing: Manuals are the best, unless were talking clutchless manuals like rally car or ALMS/ F1.

Slushbox: You really can't down shift unless you bring it down a gear. Now as far as fuzzylogic the CTS sport mode is the best of slushboxes I've ever driven.
Manumatics: Are getting better but you still suffer drive train power loss. Delay of gear change, Porsche is the only one I've really liked. D/C is getting better. GM needs improvement in the shifting delays.

Zorb750
02-14-06, 04:24 PM
The basic difference is that an automatic transmission uses the oscillation of ATF throughout the tranny to move the car, and a manual transmisison uses gears...


:lies:

Not quite. Automatics have gears too, planetary gearsets to be exact. From two to five are typical. Typical three speed has two, four speeds generally have two, some have three, most five speeds have three, some ZFs I know are 4, BMW Mercedes and Jaguar 6 and 7 speed transmissions have 5 (Not sure who makes most of those though, I think Mercedes might be in-house, BMW's is probably ZF, but not sure.)

The only place power is carried by fluid at all is in the torque converter, and that isn't an "oscillation", it's a rotation. Essentially, your TC has a pattern on one half that flings the fluid in a circular pattern like a fan blade. This fluid swirl causes the other half, which has a near opposite pattern designed to catch the swirling fluid, to rotate in the same direction. Like most hydraulic systems, this one can be stalled without damage, which is what allows your car to idle in gear, and to shift under power. the fluid is sent back through the center of the shaft in most modern transmissions, but in some older ones, it was sent through external piping. I know of no American transmissions that used this external method.

The TC can also lock, in the case of the 4T80E, it has a progressive lock, using a viscous clutch, can lock from 0 to 100% (No lock to full lock), most have a simple clutch plate, some are hydraulically actuated, a few have been magnetic. The locking helps to correct for the single lack of efficiency in the automatic transmission, being fluid power transfer losses. Most of your transmission's heat generated comes from the TC, which is one reason that idling a car in Neutral will cause heat to build up less quickly in a severe traffic jam, especially for your transmission.

An automatic transmission also has a slightly lower efficiency than a manual because of the fact that they have so many moving parts internally, and that most have at least one or two pumps (4T80E has three I believe, though not certain). The automatic transmission is the most mechanically complicated part of your car, more complicated than the engine, even a Cadillac Northstar or BMW V12.

Night Wolf
02-14-06, 04:25 PM
Well, back in the day, autos were the thing to have, as it was new...

a given auto/manual car.. the manual will be faster (if gearing is kept the same) because there is nearly no driveline loss due to the transmission.. no slipping, its all direct.

Its very hard to kill a manual... again, in a stock vehicle. Its the clutch that wears.

As for why they are liked more... well, car folks love them because its so much more fun to drive, you get to pick your gear and be more in tune with the car. You can also do nifty things with shifting, upshifting and downshifting that can't be done with an automatic. You get to choose the gear, not the car.

As for racing...

in a road race, a manual is best.

in a drag race however... it depends on what type... if its flat out who can drive the fastest, a manual is better... that is, only if teamed with a skilled driver, as a crappy driver would totally mess it up.

But, if bracket racing or other type where consistency is the key, you can't beat an auto. The amount of human error vs. machine error per shift is far, far greater with a manual, and you can build an automatic transmission to shift faster, and harder then any human could... just BAM shifts hard. A simple shift kit in many autos will alone make it superior in terms of time while shifting. Dosn't matter how much power you have or how many gears... time spent shifting is time that the car is NOT accelerating. Also, a transmission with fewer gears, if the engine power is avalible, is better in that aspect... shift 3 times instead of 5 etc... all has to do with mating the engines power band up to the right transmission with the right final drive in the right car, then a skilled driver to tie it off :).

DaveSmed
02-14-06, 04:31 PM
The line is getting blurry between the two anymore. Some of the new dual-clutch systems allow you do do amazing things, as they take the best attributes of each trans and combine it into one. BMW's SMG is one that I know of.

turbojimmy
02-14-06, 04:42 PM
It depends on the purpose. At some point, the fast drag cars move to an auto. It's the only way to be consistent. In the case of the GN, a manual trans would just slow it down. Even in stock form, the auto keeps the turbo spooled between shifts better than a manual (without an obnoxious blow-off valve, too).

My dad's SS is a 6-speed. It's definitely fun to drive but it does get old if you drive it on a daily basis. He seems to like it, but I got tired of the 5-speed in my Mustang pretty quick.

Jim

PAW 47
02-14-06, 04:42 PM
Yeah but, BMW's SMG is too cranky..and costly to fix.

DaveSmed
02-14-06, 04:47 PM
Is Audi's version any better? It's such a neat concept that once all the details get worked out theres tons of potental in that setup.

Jesda
02-14-06, 05:12 PM
I like luxury but dislike high maintenance. A manual transmission is usually one less thing to worry about.

mccombie_5
02-14-06, 05:14 PM
Out of curiosity, is your bimmer manual Jesda?

I~LUV~Caddys8792
02-14-06, 05:24 PM
I've heard that between SMG and Audi's DSG, and those other clutchless manuals, and the decreasing popularity of the tradititional stick shift, the stick shift wont be around much longer.

mccombie_5
02-14-06, 05:37 PM
I've heard that between SMG and Audi's DSG, and those other clutchless manuals, and the decreasing popularity of the tradititional stick shift, the stick shift wont be around much longer.

It will in Europe.

Normal sedans here dont come with autos as standard, its often a grnad or more as an option, so almost every car ahs a manual trans, and people drive manuals more.

Besides, if you learn to drive here in a manual, you can drive any, if you learn in an auto, you can only drive an auto - go figure

Jesda
02-14-06, 05:56 PM
Out of curiosity, is your bimmer manual Jesda?

Yes, and I want an LT1 Fleetwood Brougham to complement it, strangely enough.

Bigthings
02-14-06, 06:28 PM
are there manual caddies?

Jesda
02-14-06, 06:29 PM
Yes, the CTS!

I~LUV~Caddys8792
02-14-06, 06:48 PM
Yes, and I want an LT1 Fleetwood Brougham to complement it, strangely enough.

Apparently, there is a way you can put a stick shift in a Fleetwood Brougham. I've never seen one, but I know people do it to the 94-96 Impala SS's.

fleetwood76
02-14-06, 07:05 PM
Hello

Here in Sweden is it so that when you buy a new car and want a auto tranny you have to pay much money for the auto option. Then when you sell the car it's valued lower than a manual.
Auto tranny are only consedered standard on large BMW's or MB's and cars like that. On regular cars is it mostly TAXI's and Ambulances and cars like that, that get equipped with auto trans.
On imported american cars is auto tranny of course most common.

I sometimes work as a truckdriver and get to use a manual trans all i want then, so on all my cars i have own, i have had a auto trans, and i think it is almost the best invention on a car.

Even on my first car, a OPEL Manta A -71, had a 3speed auto, the car had a L4 engine 1,9L 90 hp.
Not very fast at all, but thanks to the auto pretty fun at the redlights, because of the different gearing in a 3sp auto compared to a similar 4 or 5 sp stick car i could drive the car to over 44 mph in first gear, while a manual car needed to change gear atleast once, and that was often enought to get ahead, even over cars with much more thunder under the hood.

I see no reason what so ever to ever get a manual car, atleast so long i get to choose what car i'll be driving.

/ jolle

danbuc
02-14-06, 07:50 PM
Any Automatic transmission designed for performance or racing applications will ALWAYS shift faster than any human can. Most new high performance Automatic transmissions shift withing a couple milliseconds. I'd like to see a person who can do that without destroying a manual tranny. As far as manuals transmissions being somewhat stronger, I guess that may hold true in some cases, but it all depends on the driver. One missed shift can cause gears and oil to be spilt all over the road in a matter of seconds.

I would take a manual shift Auto, over a traditional Manual tranny anyday, provided the manufacturer has made it shift fast enough. Alot of those "do it yourself" auto trannies out there just aren't fast enough to responds to manual input. Some, like BMW's SMG are quite fast though, and will amost always out perform a an identical car with a manual.

One really great example of this is the new GTO. The manual 6spd version is said to be able to run a 13.1 in the 1/4. The 4spd automatic version is said to be able to run a 13.0 in the 1/4. While some of this has to do with the effectiveness of the T/C system in the automatic car.....the auto doesn't have to shift through as many gears to achive the same speed, and can shift through them fast, and more precisely, giving it that extra advantage.

Now, as for the average car like say......a Volvo S60 for example...the manual tranny CAN shift faster than the automatic one, provided the driver is capable of doing so. This simple fact is what people forget when comparing manuals to autamatics in terms of shift speed. Manuals are more fun to drive though which is whyt many people still opt for them, or because it's the only thing available without paying extra. Personally, If it's a big heavy car, I'd much rather have an Automatic since a Manual will only be a burden in such a vehicle. As for a light car.....let's say a Triumph TR4-A....I would much rather have a manual (well, they only came with a manual 4spd, but that's beside the point) because it allows for more control of the car, and it's fun. Plus, you need the ability to rev higher than the average stall speed of a factory converter to get that thing moving.

Night Wolf
02-14-06, 07:56 PM
are there manual caddies?

Hell yeah!

How does a V16 + manual in a huge RWD sweet car sound? Sure you only get 3 gaers to play with.. but damn....

http://www.campbellriversales.com/vintcar1/1931-Cadillac-V16-Fleetwood-Imperial-Sedan-fvr.jpg

Night Wolf
02-14-06, 08:02 PM
Well, for me atleast.. manuals are really fun to drive... not in stop and go traffic... and hear in Clearwater, there is plenty of that.. but back in NY... damn.

A manual alone can make a boring car, like a Caviler become a very fun to drive car.

A manual... and the Cummins 24V Tubro Diesel option can make a, otherwise boring Dodge RAM 2500 reg cab/short bed/2WD/no options be a totally sweet truck (ok, mostly part due to the Cummins)

Anyway... in my case, all 3.... err.... 2... of my cars are auto... I am tired of auto, I want a change... being a car guy, and into engines and such, I just really like manuals. My next vehicle, a Jeep TJ, is going to be a manual... one thing really nice with the Jeep vs. econo boxes or sports cars... is the large amounts of torque of the 4.0 I6 at even an idle. I dumped the clutch in 1st gear and reverse in it, and no bog in the RPM at all, the Jeep just jump quickly. So stuck in traffic wouldn't be as bad, since you don't gotta keep revving it up and stuff.

Plus, I just want a change... and buying an all out Jeep Wrangler without an auto.... would be like buying a Corvette with an auto... some vehicles are just made for a manual.

mccombie_5
02-14-06, 08:06 PM
So how much would Americans like my dad's wife's Isuzu Trooper 3.1 Turbo Diesel, with manual box and low ratio gears?

I hear you only got the V6 with auto?

Night Wolf
02-14-06, 08:35 PM
That would be really cool...

I know the Troopers here have alot of engine problems, crankshaft.. atleast the old ones.

I'd really like to see more diesels sold... as it is now, there are only 4 man diesels:

Ford Powerstroke
Chevy Duramax
Cummins (RAM)

so since those are all trucks... that leaves the VW TDI as the only diesel car sold here.

mccombie_5
02-14-06, 08:40 PM
That would be really cool...

I know the Troopers here have alot of engine problems, crankshaft.. atleast the old ones.

I'd really like to see more diesels sold... as it is now, there are only 4 man diesels:

Ford Powerstroke
Chevy Duramax
Cummins (RAM)

so since those are all trucks... that leaves the VW TDI as the only diesel car sold here.

Ours is a 1995, commercial, so the rear windows are steeled up.

The US needs to move on in diesel technology, diesels have improved SO much in recent years.

Some of the best:

Volkswagen group
Volvo
Peugeot/Citroen
Renault
BMW
Mercedes Benz

Ford diesels are also good, they broguht the 1.6 TDCi engine in recently, and Vauxhall (GM) have some decent ones, although I believe one is still Isuzu sourced. Jaguar even offers diesels!

Katshot
02-14-06, 09:07 PM
Manual vs. Automatic. Boy has this one been argued over and over. There have been some interesting points made here and some posts have been fairly contradictory.
mccombie_5 has a unique perspective because in Europe, most people have been raised on manual transmissions, and are generally more likely to enjoy "driving" their cars. In America, those people are in the minority. Most people here aren't terribly concerned about "driving" their cars. For them, the car is just a means to get from one place to another. So the more unintrusive the car is, the better. I think this is also true because our country is more spread out than any in Europe. We generally need to drive further to get where we need to go. Hell, I think the average annual mileage in the UK is something like 5000 miles as compared to our 15000 miles. The just don't spend as much time in their cars as we do, so to them it's ok to have a car that's a little more work. It's really a social issue.
As far as which trans is "better"? That's just not a simple question. That would be like saying what's the best car? There's just too many variables to consider to make such a blanket statement. As far as which is faster, again that depends on what kind of racing you're doing. An automatic will generally out-perform a manual "IF" it's properly programmed. This is a fairly easy task for something like drag racing but in road racing, the programming needs to be different for each track, similar to suspension tuning. The advantage for the manual in road racing is that the driver is easier to "program" than the trans so he/she can adapt to track conditions more readily than even a team of programmers can with an automatic. IMO, this is why when you find a car with an automatic that actually DOES perform well in various road racing type conditions, you should seriously thank the guys that did the programming because what they did was nothing short of a miracle.
Yes, there ARE cars that have faster and quicker automatic versions but they are still among the minority. But they're growing and that's a good thing.
And as far as putting a manual trans in a Fleetwood, IMO that's a waste of time and money. The engine and chassis are much better suited for an automatic than a manual. In order for you to correct that, you totally lose what makes the car a Cadillac.

mccombie_5
02-14-06, 09:21 PM
Average mileage here is about 12,000 and rising, we almost live in our cars :p. Most people do about 50 miles a day. I think one of the major factors are infact that there is more stopping accross a day. Stop start traffic is everywhere and completely at random.

I also think that most cars come with a manual standard because its cheaper to manufacture and repair, and they do seem more responsive than an auto trans. I think it allows you to deal with the conditions better. For example drop a cog and floor it, something you cant do with an auto, you have to jsut floor it.

As for motorway or long distance driving, well once you're in fifth or sixth gear your there for the whole journey. Luxury cars still have their autos, and the occasional bread and butter car does too, but not many of them. The average car that probably had auto trans more than any other was probably the OPel/Vauxhall Omega, most of those were autos, but they were big cars.

Autos do have thei advnatages, I just think I'd prefer to have the responsivness of a manual.

danbuc
02-14-06, 09:26 PM
A manual Fleetwood....hehe. Some of the guys over on the Impala SS forum have swapped Tremec T56's into their cars.....for what reason, I'm not sure. The Impala is a pretty heavy car, and it doesn't handle liek a sports car. Not really sure why they put the mnual in there...maybe to be different.

I really wanna get a small, light car with a manual tranny. I was thinking abotu a 2002 tii, but they are kinda hard to come across in nice shape. I wanna go road racing with it...since that's about all they're really good for. Man, would that be a fun car. Maybe even an old 1600 with the 2002 tii engine...haha, that would be wild.

peterb
02-14-06, 09:36 PM
Of course, many of the higher-end autos (certainly in Europe) allow manual control of the gear selection. On my Audi RS6, I have 'paddles' behind the steering wheel (Like in an F1 car?) which allow me to force the AT to change gear. That is on a standard epicyclic/torque convertor transmission.

My Toyota Spyder, on the other hand, does no automatic gear selection but doesn't have a clutch pedal. It uses a normal synchromesh manual transmission and friction clutch, but it's all electronically controlled. I press a button to initiate a gearchange and the 'system' then goes through a sequence of de-clutching, changing gear ratio, and re-engaging the clutch.

gothicaleigh
02-14-06, 09:40 PM
I really wanna get a small, light car with a manual tranny. I was thinking abotu a 2002 tii, but they are kinda hard to come across in nice shape. I wanna go road racing with it...since that's about all they're really good for. Man, would that be a fun car. Maybe even an old 1600 with the 2002 tii engine...haha, that would be wild.

e30

e30 with an s52 swap if you want to go wild

Not that I'm biased or anything though... ;)

DaveSmed
02-14-06, 09:54 PM
Does your Toyota use the dual clutch setup like the europeans?

Damn you gothicaleigh! Making me want another one even worse.....

itsabughunt
02-14-06, 11:13 PM
Wow, I had no idea this topic would get such a lively response. Thank you all for your perspectives. I had no idea that auto trannies are used at all in the racing scene, but then again what I know about racing could fit in a thimble. My next car is definitely going to be a newer Caddilac (late 90's - either a Seville or Eldo) so obviously its going to be an auto for me regardless. I think that the 4T80E is the only transmission used for these cars, is that correct? Are any particular years of this transmission better than others for some reason, or are they pretty much the same? I'm also wondering about the transmission in my current 91 Sedan Deville, its 4T60 or something I think? Is that a good model? I know that it was replaced about two years ago. Cool, well thanks again for all the information everyone.

Night Wolf
02-14-06, 11:20 PM
Yeah, the 4T60E is a good trans. Most all GM FWD trannys are stout.

Autos in the racing world are very popular... especially off road too, rock crawlers its great, being able to not have to deal with the clutch etc... drag racing as mentioned...

perhaps one of the most unique auto trannys is the GM Powerglide. Only 2 gears, but used a sort of centrifigal clutch to change the gearing without actually changing gears. Back in the day it was frowned upon, but as of late, thats what is in most dragsters. high power handling and simply shifting once, while stiff benifiting from low gearing off the line and high gearing for the top end, really caught the eyes of the dragster guys.

PAW 47
02-15-06, 12:10 AM
Some people refer to the 2spd powerglide as the powerslide because it liked to slip alot!! T400 was better. But the Mopar 3spd 727 Torqueflite now thats a dang good tranny!

A little history on the Mopar 727's
I think it is the only tranny (early versions) that could be push started if the motor had a dead battery as it had pumps on the input shaft and output shafts of the tranny. Thus it was capeable to turn the motor over.

danbuc
02-15-06, 12:27 AM
e30

e30 with an s52 swap if you want to go wild

Not that I'm biased or anything though... ;)

Too new....and I don't really like the E30 styling all that much. I bet I could find a way to wedge that engine into the 2002 though. It would be tight...but I bet I could do it..hehe.:sneaky:

peterb
02-15-06, 09:13 PM
Does your Toyota use the dual clutch setup like the europeans?
Nope - it really is just like a standard MT, just that it's electrically controlled and operated.

dbdartman
02-16-06, 12:34 AM
A little history on the Mopar 727's
I think it is the only tranny (early versions) that could be push started if the motor had a dead battery as it had pumps on the input shaft and output shafts of the tranny. Thus it was capeable to turn the motor over.

Not true. MOST early auto trans had a rear pump. Back in the mid 70's, I had a '57 Ford, 292 V8 auto trans, that could be started by pushing (I did it once or twice).

The torqueflite 727 gained it's reputation on the drag strip as the first auto trans that would: A- handle the 400+ HP output, & B- actually run faster than a manual trans. They did have an early manual valve body & coupled with the push-button shifter, they were hard to beat (on the strip). What limited these early drag racing auto transmissions was the torque converter; there were no "high stall" converters available, which allowed the engine to spin to a higher speed to get it into the torque curve. One way racers got around the converter problem was to fit a clutch to the input & thus was created the clutch-flite trans. With the advent of "modern" high-stall converters, the clultch-flite became obsolete in the early 70's & have pretty much disappeared.

Powerglides are VERY popular in drag racing. Today, you can build one to handle over 1000 HP, but there is NOTHING stock about these, including the trans case. In a drag car that weigh under 3000 lbs, there's almost nothing better, faster, or more consistant. My friend's '70 Dart (with a 499 CID, approx 750 HP, Mopar engine) runs a 'Glide & runs consistant 9.1-9.3 ET's at around 147-149 MPH (the converter/rear gear combo still needs a little sorting). Being a bracket car, consistancy is of UTMOST importance. We tried for 3-4 years to make it consistant with a 727, but we kept running into problems with the trans brake (engages 1st & reverse at the same time by pushing a button, releasing the button shocks the suspension & plants the slicks like a clutch), & traction problems due to the high multiplication of the 1st gear set. After swapping in the 'Glide, the car became DEADLY consistant & he gained a reputation with "the regulars" as a car to avoid lining up against, if at all possible. Attached are 3 pics of the little old Dart, taken at Englishtown NJ last year, at the Mopar show.

I've driven a couple hundred thousand miles with a manual box & probably near the same with autos. As stated, for pure FUN nothing beats "rowing your own." One of these days, I'll tell the story of banging gears in a friend's '70 Ford Torino 429 Super Drag Pack back in '74 (when these klind of cars could be had for under $1000). Suffice it to say, I schooled him on exactly what that car was capable of (I estimate 12's in street form).

SilverFleetwood85
02-16-06, 01:23 AM
I have noticed and also have heard that car enthusiast like manual transmissions, I guess I am just an odd ball car enthusiast who prefers a smooth shifting automatic to any manual transmission. Although I would prefer a manual to a rough shifting automatic (cough..cough Honda and Acura).

Eventhough I do prefer an automatic, I still don't think car manufacturers should eliminate manual transmissions.

BTW, I believe that replacing a clutch on a FWD car is horribly expensive, especially considering that a clutch usually goes out before an automatic.

Night Wolf
02-16-06, 01:47 AM
Yes, but replacing a $150 clutch is alot better then a $2,000 transmission.

Plus, when driven correctly, the clutch should last the lifetime of the vehicle.... but from stupid people, or people learning how to drive on it, that is often not the case.

Automatics are good in luxury and family sedan cars, as well as big heavy duty trucks.... Silverado 2500HD etc...

but really, I want a manual...

mccombie_5
02-16-06, 11:57 AM
Yes, but replacing a $150 clutch is alot better then a $2,000 transmission.

Plus, when driven correctly, the clutch should last the lifetime of the vehicle.... but from stupid people, or people learning how to drive on it, that is often not the case.

Automatics are good in luxury and family sedan cars, as well as big heavy duty trucks.... Silverado 2500HD etc...

but really, I want a manual...

I agree the clutch will usually last as long as the car. The clutch was just about gone in our old Rover and I learned in that car when I was 13. My dad's wife got it after that, and she has a VERY heavy left foot, twinned with a VERY heavy right foot, means everything operated by pedals was shot :D

Zorb750
02-16-06, 03:56 PM
... that leaves the VW TDI as the only diesel car sold here.

Not quite. My girlfriend has a Mercedes E320 CDI.

It's unbelievably quiet, surprisingly fast. And gets a bit over 40 miles per gallon (better than claimed) if driven right.

Zorb750
02-16-06, 03:58 PM
Ok, I did edit, not reply. Why did it duplicate the post?

Night Wolf
02-16-06, 04:43 PM
Not quite. My girlfriend has a Mercedes E320 CDI.

It's unbelievably quiet, surprisingly fast. And gets a bit over 40 miles per gallon (better than claimed) if driven right.

I thought the last MB diesel sold in the US was ~1989?

danbuc
02-16-06, 05:12 PM
MB is using a new Common Rail Injection Deisel in the 211 chassis, and I think they will also be introducing it in the new 221 chassis as well. We had one at our school a few weeks ago. It is much quiter than any other deisel car I've ever heard, although there is still a faint knock that can be heard. That's only form outside the car, when standing close to it though. Inside, it's whisper quite. Those deisel are pretty damn fast now. I believe that the top end CDI car (211 chassis) is capable of 6.3 0-60 times. That's pretty damn good for a big heavy diesel car.

mccombie_5
02-16-06, 05:15 PM
Its true about diesels being as good as gas engines now.

The VW Golf GT TDI is faster than the GTI too. Says it all really.

Night Wolf
02-16-06, 08:38 PM
MB is using a new Common Rail Injection Deisel in the 211 chassis, and I think they will also be introducing it in the new 221 chassis as well. We had one at our school a few weeks ago. It is much quiter than any other deisel car I've ever heard, although there is still a faint knock that can be heard. That's only form outside the car, when standing close to it though. Inside, it's whisper quite. Those deisel are pretty damn fast now. I believe that the top end CDI car (211 chassis) is capable of 6.3 0-60 times. That's pretty damn good for a big heavy diesel car.

Honestly I love the sound of diesels...

in the RAM 2500... when I started it up, just the sound of the Cummins at idle... then hit the gas, and between that sweet raspy semi-truck sound, and the turbo spooling up.... DAMN! Really makes me want one...