: "V" vs "M3" cornering......



austin
02-11-06, 02:28 PM
I give credit to the BMW M3, it is a light quick, excellant cornering machine. Would you guys consider the stock "V's" cornering, equal to it, better, or lesser than.......... or, the "V" with Hotchkis bars installed, equal to, better than, or lesser of a cornering machine?

Dreamin
02-11-06, 02:34 PM
I've passed every M3 i've encountered on a road course... (V with street tires and stock suspension).

And i wouldn't consider 3415 lbs 'light' for a 2 door.

BowenCT
02-11-06, 02:37 PM
Good question. This will surely start some serious debate, and I don't have an answer for you. I am in the process of making my V a very competent handler. My formula: Good Year F1 Supercars, FG2 package, Hotchkis sway bars, Ground control coil over kit, and BMR strut tower brace. Will it handle better than an M3, who knows. But I wouldn't be caught dead in an M3 so it doesn't matter anyway.

Mat347
02-11-06, 03:54 PM
How many lateral G's can a stock M3 take? There are many of us who have pulled over 1.1Gs in stock trim.

ace996
02-11-06, 04:10 PM
How many lateral G's can a stock M3 take? There are many of us who have pulled over 1.1Gs in stock trim.
Transitional Gs....yes. Constant G's....no. Not without R-compound tires can the V reach 1G.

The basic answer is, a good driver will extract more than enough cornering abilities from either car. The V handles about as well as a big-4door has any right to, it has great potential. The M3 has a great limit of handling, too, but will steer towards a push when driven hard...the V is more balanced.

But when a little modding is in the cards, the M3 will have more potential. Its lighter, can mount the same or larger tires than the V can, and has MANY choices for aftermarket suspension. A set of wider tires, evenly matched sways, and more camber dialed in...the M3 will own. If the V could mount more tire without body modifications, it would be almost unbeatable....

On a road course, the V's motor will certainly keep things more even...but if handling is the only judge, it's tough to beat the M.

Bowen has a very interesting formula, not that there's really another choice.., but those few pieces should make the V a Killer in the turns. Again, wider tires would make everything even better...
-ace

Dennisscars
02-11-06, 04:13 PM
If your not going to drive it off the street, what's the point?

austin
02-12-06, 01:15 AM
>If your not going to drive it off the street, what's the point?

Well...... Not all races are won in a straight line.... and tracks are'nt the only places with curves.

Where i live.... (close to Boston, MA), It is not uncommon to see M3's, AMG's, Vette's etc... Not so much street racing as in stop light to stop light (this does happen as well), but more like chas'n each other through downtown Boston's traffic while jumping from one night spot to another. I guess you could call this late night club hopping. Your handling realy has to be right on par, especialy if your up against some good competition. Their is no room for error here... I'm just trying to find out where i would stand... Thats all..... The M3 is a pretty common site at night around the Boston club scene.

ace996
02-12-06, 02:56 AM
Put a set of Hots-bars on, and 255/40 Azenis 615s. You'll then be ready for the Bostonian Nocturnal Automotive Ultimate Fighting Championship!!!!!!
I really do need to go to F1Boston again, and then see what all this Dusk to Dawn excitement is all about....
-ace

Devil_concours
02-12-06, 08:45 AM
:hmm: let me get this straight. You want a good handling car so that you can swerve in between traffic?

Dennisscars
02-12-06, 10:04 AM
:nono: Seems like the alcohol and machismo would negate any advantage brought on by expensive equipment. Not to mention messing up the front end alignment from curb jumping...

A good (sober) driver in a Miata would monkey spank a bunch of drunk frats in a bimmer...

Sorry man, can't condone that kind of street racing, too many squashed people on the nightly news. The fuzz in cracking down on the rest of us.

http://www.rgj.com/news/stories/html/2004/11/07/84730.php?sp1=rgj&sp2=News&sp3=Local+News&sp5=RGJ.com&sp6=news&sp7=local_news
Hey wait, I know that guy!!! :eek:

arr0gant
02-12-06, 10:10 AM
M3, by far.

Devil_concours
02-12-06, 12:27 PM
if you want the best handler under 60k, i would suggest lotus elise/exige, miata..

thebigjimsho
02-12-06, 12:52 PM
>If your not going to drive it off the street, what's the point?

Well...... Not all races are won in a straight line.... and tracks are'nt the only places with curves.

Where i live.... (close to Boston, MA), It is not uncommon to see M3's, AMG's, Vette's etc... Not so much street racing as in stop light to stop light (this does happen as well), but more like chas'n each other through downtown Boston's traffic while jumping from one night spot to another. I guess you could call this late night club hopping. Your handling realy has to be right on par, especialy if your up against some good competition. Their is no room for error here... I'm just trying to find out where i would stand... Thats all..... The M3 is a pretty common site at night around the Boston club scene.Man, where have I been? I know not of this Boston Nightclub Racing Scene. And at this time of year, I wouldn't do any type of serious speed around Boston. I don't have runflats and I don't have the $$$ to replacing ball joints and other assorted suspension parts.

Although, last night, as the blizzard was approaching, every racer was out trying to get his fix before heading home. Heading E from Fitchburgh on Rte 2, a G35 came up close. Close enough to see the passengers leaning forward trying to read the BYHEMI plate and possibly the B&B exhaust. But Rte 2, except for the flat near Ft Devens is heavily traveled by the Staties, so I wasn't biting. Before we could hit the flats, he took off at high speeds.

So I get to I-495 and head N. As I'm getting on, a TSX is getting off in front of me, so I back off and once he proceeds, I move to the left and hit it. Quick blast up to 75 and then proceed into the left lane. Well, the TSX wants some, too. This time I'll go if he wants it. He proceeds to come up to my left after I move over. Then I get a nice big middle finger as he goes by. I chuckle for a couple seconds and when I downshift to 3rd, he's about 7-8 carlengths up. Byt the time I hit 5th, he's about 7-8 back. So for the next 5 miles, we're just kind of messing around, goosing the throttle here and there. Then a late 90's M3 gets passed. So I've got the TSX and M3 wanting to toy around.

So after passing the Boston Rd exit, I hit the gas and run up to 120, leaving the other 2 about 15 carlengths back. After a couple more miles of admiration(at least that's how I discerned it), we approach Rt 3 and I'm almost home. One of the better spots to hit high speeds is the 2 miles before then. So as the TSX(the M3 dropped back now) looks over, we both go at the same time. As I hit 145, I look back. I can't even guess how many lengths back they were. It seemed like a 1/4 mile. Of course it wasn't fair to these guys. But it was fun.

austin
02-12-06, 01:20 PM
>Man, where have I been? I know not of this Boston Nightclub Racing Scene.

http://www.streetcarforums.com/forumdisplay.php?forumid=35 :cop: :cop: :cop: :cop:

Devil_concours
02-12-06, 01:35 PM
>Man, where have I been? I know not of this Boston Nightclub Racing Scene.

http://www.streetcarforums.com/forumdisplay.php?forumid=35 :cop: :cop: :cop: :cop:
In my younger days (i'm consider reall young compared to these guys), i did a lot of late night racing in a lot of fine tuned cars (not exotic but extoic performance level. 700+hp rx7)

arr0gant
02-12-06, 02:15 PM
if you want the best handler under 60k, i would suggest lotus elise/exige, miata.. Dont forget, Boxster S!

Dreamin
02-12-06, 03:28 PM
Seems like HP and good brakes would be more important than pure "handling" abilty to swerve in and out traffic.

Devil_concours
02-12-06, 04:03 PM
Seems like HP and good brakes would be more important than pure "handling" abilty to swerve in and out traffic.
nimbleness is probably what he needs the most.

Dennisscars
02-12-06, 04:39 PM
And a good get out of jail lawyer… :thepan:

Mutlu
02-13-06, 03:23 AM
All I have to say is that the V went around Nuerburgring faster than the M3 and prior M5.

Devil_concours
02-13-06, 03:35 AM
All I have to say is that the V went around Nuerburgring faster than the M3 and prior M5.
bah but it will not beat the m3 on a low speed track/course.

Mutlu
02-13-06, 11:29 AM
and the M3 won't beat the Boxster S, Elise, S2000, STI, EVO, etc etc.....

I owned a 2002 M3 SMG and for the money the CTS-V cannot be beat, especially if you only paid 41k as I did.

austin
02-27-06, 09:50 PM
>All I have to say is that the V went around Nuerburgring faster than the M3 (http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/#) and prior M5 (http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/#).


This is a great point you mentioned..... I have to ask this though..... Should i expect that they could of achieved an even faster time with the addition of the Hotchkis sway bars, or would they have been too stiff for Nuerburgring, and the time would of suffered? Having the Hotchkis bars on order with the GP, i am very interested in knowing the benifits of having them, and if any, lack of benifits from having them. Thanks. :)

thebigjimsho
02-27-06, 11:47 PM
Yeah, if you get too stiff a suspension on the 'ring, you're gonna be launching yourself on some of those high-speed undulations.

wildwhl
02-28-06, 12:13 AM
:nono: Seems like the alcohol and machismo would negate any advantage brought on by expensive equipment. Not to mention messing up the front end alignment from curb jumping...

A good (sober) driver in a Miata would monkey spank a bunch of drunk frats in a bimmer...

Sorry man, can't condone that kind of street racing, too many squashed people on the nightly news. The fuzz in cracking down on the rest of us.

http://www.rgj.com/news/stories/html/2004/11/07/84730.php?sp1=rgj&sp2=News&sp3=Local+News&sp5=RGJ.com&sp6=news&sp7=local_news
Hey wait, I know that guy!!! :eek:


How did this one get past me :tisk:

I now have a V with GC kit, Hots bars, GSD3's, wider rears, plenty of go, plenty of stop, and I'd almost call it a plush go-kart.

I did this because I can, and because someday I'll make it to a track where some of you are. Someday sooner than that I'm headed to Reno-Fernley raceway for a few one on one sessions with a pro.

M3 is the car CVP33 SHOULD have traded for. Then we wouldn't look so gay without sweaters in the SRT8 (or would we?).

austin
02-28-06, 08:59 AM
>Yeah, if you get too stiff a suspension (http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/#) on the 'ring, you're gonna be launching yourself on some of those high-speed undulations.

So, are you saying that the Hotchkis bars would make the "V's" handling worse? I thought they were track tested? :(

gothicaleigh
02-28-06, 09:17 AM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v643/habib19/resizeddesktop.jpg



Sorry, I couldn't resist. :duck:

thebigjimsho
02-28-06, 10:22 AM
>Yeah, if you get too stiff a suspension (http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/#) on the 'ring, you're gonna be launching yourself on some of those high-speed undulations.

So, are you saying that the Hotchkis bars would make the "V's" handling worse? I thought they were track tested? :(No, no, no. Sway bars do not make for a harsh ride. They simply reduce roll. I'm talking in generalities. There is a point where any car can get too stiff for the road. And some tracks aren't glassy smooth and/or have big dips and bumps that upset a stiffly sprung chassis. I've never driven the 'ring in real life. But I have to say that Gran Turismo 4 does a pretty good job on recreating the track. If you run that track at full speed, you'll see what I mean. C&D even referred to how the V responded to these bumps and dips in their first article behind the wheel of a V at the 'ring.

Blackout
02-28-06, 02:46 PM
According to some quick looking up the cars both pull a 0.87 g on the skidpad. So at that point it would come up to driver ability and which car has more suspension options which that would give the M3 the nod over the CTS-V easily since they have been around forever and people auto cross those things all the time

thebigjimsho
02-28-06, 04:03 PM
According to some quick looking up the cars both pull a 0.87 g on the skidpad. So at that point it would come up to driver ability and which car has more suspension options which that would give the M3 the nod over the CTS-V easily since they have been around forever and people auto cross those things all the timeg numbers are a small aspect of a car's handling. There is a whole lot more that, when added up, makes for a great handling car. Transient response, understeer/oversteer/drift, turn-in, throttle response all have a bearing on a car's handling. g numbers are like 1/4 mile times. Something definitive to point at, means very little in the real world.

rand49er
02-28-06, 06:45 PM
g numbers are a small aspect of a car's handling. There is a whole lot more that, when added up, makes for a great handling car. Transient response, understeer/oversteer/drift, turn-in, throttle response all have a bearing on a car's handling. g numbers are like 1/4 mile times. Something definitive to point at, means very little in the real world.I agree ... so, what's up with the M3's claim in goth's ad? I mean, is the V so poor in comparison that it can be ignored like that?:rant2: Say it ain't so! :tisk:

austin
02-28-06, 07:04 PM
>I agree ... so, what's up with the M3's claim in goth's ad? I mean, is the V so poor in comparison that it can be ignored like that?


IMO..... That ad gothicaleigh posted looks old, maybe pre "V".

Maybe i'm wrong, but the Corvette pictured looks like an older one, heck.. even the BMW looks like an older one too.

gothicaleigh
02-28-06, 07:25 PM
That's from the nineties. It was just the first thing to come to mind when I saw the thread. :p

GNSCOTT
02-28-06, 07:43 PM
1 word...SLOLEM

THe M3 will turn quicker in different directions while the V or M5 have alot more weight to swing back in the other direction. The M3 will run laps around around the V on a tight road course making it a better handeling car> There is only so much you can do to overcome a huge weight disadvantage, and the V keeps up or slightly beats it at the ring because of HP and torque.

Put the M3 vs. a SRT-4 Neon on a real tight parking lot cone track and the Neon will spank the M3.

rgd
02-28-06, 07:54 PM
Were is it, I don't see it! :confused:


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v643/habib19/resizeddesktop.jpg



Sorry, I couldn't resist. :duck:

gothicaleigh
02-28-06, 07:56 PM
Put the M3 vs. a SRT-4 Neon on a real tight parking lot cone track and the Neon will spank the M3.

I doubt that. FWD doesn't allow you to power oversteer through a corner like a well balanced rear-driver.

Here's a better explanation than I will be able to do through text:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7779894845558014372&q=top+gear+fwd

Dreamin
02-28-06, 07:58 PM
1 word...SLOLEM

It's not Road&Track, but the first thing that came up on google:

E46 M3 Slalom Speed: 65.1 mph
CTS-V Slalom Speed: 66.1 mph

http://exoticcarsite.com/pages/bmw_e46_m3.htm
http://exoticcarsite.com/pages/cadillac_cts-v.htm

kanned
02-28-06, 09:08 PM
I have an E46 M3... and a 2006 CTS-V...

I'd have to say the M3 feels more stable at high speed. I've yet to take the CTS to Summit or VIR.. but as it is.. I'd say the M3 feels tighter and more sure in the twisties. It could also be the diffrence in tires and suspension as my M3 is slightly modified and the CTS is brand new.. :)

http://www.morehouse.org/mtree/DSC01015.jpg
M3

http://www.morehouse.org/cts/DSC00689.jpg
and the CTS... which has 200 miles on it.. :)

thebigjimsho
03-01-06, 07:22 PM
I doubt that. FWD doesn't allow you to power oversteer through a corner like a well balanced rear-driver.

Here's a better explanation than I will be able to do through text:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7779894845558014372&q=top+gear+fwdThere is too much weight difference between the Neon and the M3. It may be a FWD, but a properly tuned suspension on a Neon is VERY difficult to beat. Add an LSD if it's an ACR edition and I dare say only a gutted, totally race-prepped M3 would EVER have a shot on those Neons on a tight course.

The RWD advantage is much less an issue when dealing with smaller venues. Besides, you can have a setup that oversteers and with an LSD, be able to drive out of corners similarly to a RWD vehicle. I know I could induce oversteer and throttle out of a turn in my LSD SHO.

ace996
03-01-06, 09:03 PM
A few local hotshoe autoxers wield the E46M3s like scalpels. There is no comparison to the cars(M3,V,or SRT4). Properly prepared, the M is not a car I'd bet against on an autox course....or a track smaller than the 'Ring.

The V, with it's weight, is not a 'tossable' car. I've autoxed " a friend's" V, and although it did very well, it's not a contender...never going to get Fastest Time of Day, or win in it's class. And the difference between the Neon vs M3 is going to come down to course set-up.

The V will rock on a roadcourse...give it time to take a set before a turn and it'll do its job wonderfully. With the Hots bars and GC kit adding to the roll-control and pitching changes of brake/throttle application, the V should be a real corner carver. Again, the only way the V will be able to compete with the other competitive cars is to be able to mount VERY wide tires. The V is starving for tires, 275 front...315/335 rear....that would be the answer.
Graft on a set of Specter's fender flares and some custom rims and the V will be a killer.
-ace

gothicaleigh
03-02-06, 07:57 PM
http://www.rennslalomcup.de/store/videos/000142.wmv