: My theory for why Cadillacs depreciate more rapidly than others..



Ralph
12-30-03, 11:17 PM
I think people don't keep them long enough, or they trade them in, therefore, they are too numerous on dealership lots and the prices come down just to get rid of them. Perhaps if there were fewer made, they would be more exclusive and the value would go up. Any thoughts?

eehoepp
12-31-03, 01:33 AM
They are complicated cars with a lot of latest-technology gizmos and toys.

I think the public perception is that these things will break in time & because it's a Cadillac it will be expensive to fix. Particularly the "unproven technology". So long as it's still under the factory warrantee it's ok because someone else will pay to fix it. Once it's out of warrantee it's too much of a liability - hence no demand for them. Basic economic theory states low demand = low price.

Note the popularity of extended warrantees amongst the population here.

FWIW, my STS is 10 years old. If I wasn't confident that I could fix anything that breaks myself, I wouldn't have touched it either. But I can. So I bought one. And I do fix it. And I love it. No extended warrantee required.

My $0.02

Brett
12-31-03, 08:52 AM
Let us not forget all the fleet sales. the fastest depreciating Cadillac is the Deville, no surprise thats the one they sell to fleets. Cadillac has said they will cut fleet sales in half within the next 5 years, that will help.

JJhomer83
12-31-03, 10:06 AM
I like how they go down in price. THat means that lonely poor american joe like myself can afford one that is 12 years old. I am glad they depreciate so quickly, by the time i am 25 i can own one that is only about 5 years old. If you do the right research you can find a GREAT deal on these cars b/c "old" people own them.
what i mean about old people is that the average grandma/grandpa buys one NEW, the take it into the shop everytime it needs work. The warranty runs out and they get something new again. I love that.

El Dobro
12-31-03, 12:01 PM
People I know never check prices of Cadillacs, they just assume they're expensive. They also believe they're gas hogs, so they don't look at them. Their loss, my gain.

Night Wolf
12-31-03, 12:18 PM
I like how they go down in price. THat means that lonely poor american joe like myself can afford one that is 12 years old. I am glad they depreciate so quickly, by the time i am 25 i can own one that is only about 5 years old. If you do the right research you can find a GREAT deal on these cars b/c "old" people own them.
what i mean about old people is that the average grandma/grandpa buys one NEW, the take it into the shop everytime it needs work. The warranty runs out and they get something new again. I love that.

Well, that's the thing, if John Smith is your average guy, dosn't have alot of money, but wants a "new" used car for himself, say he has $5k.....now 45k won't get you a 12 year old Bimmer or a Benz, it would get you a nice, even 6-8 year old mid-size family sedan....but $5k will also get you a 10-12 year old Caddy...... a couple of years ago, the 80's RWD DeVilles and Broughams were the perfect canidate for this.... now they are getting older, so you do not see them around as much, but what I am saying is, when someone should be buying a Taurus or a used Lumina or something, they are buying the Caddy.....then they do not take care of it, and run it into the ground, it gets dents and scratches, looses a hubcap etc..... they don't bother to fix it, and it ruins the resale value in general.

The only times I ever see a BMW or a Benz used as a beater, is the rare occasion when there is a early-mid 80's model that someone is using....but I see it with Cadillac alot more....drive though the ghetto part of your nearest city and look at all the run-down Caddys there.....

JJhomer83
12-31-03, 02:35 PM
Well, that's the thing, if John Smith is your average guy, dosn't have alot of money, but wants a "new" used car for himself, say he has $5k.....now 45k won't get you a 12 year old Bimmer or a Benz, it would get you a nice, even 6-8 year old mid-size family sedan....but $5k will also get you a 10-12 year old Caddy...... a couple of years ago, the 80's RWD DeVilles and Broughams were the perfect canidate for this.... now they are getting older, so you do not see them around as much, but what I am saying is, when someone should be buying a Taurus or a used Lumina or something, they are buying the Caddy.....then they do not take care of it, and run it into the ground, it gets dents and scratches, looses a hubcap etc..... they don't bother to fix it, and it ruins the resale value in general.

The only times I ever see a BMW or a Benz used as a beater, is the rare occasion when there is a early-mid 80's model that someone is using....but I see it with Cadillac alot more....drive though the ghetto part of your nearest city and look at all the run-down Caddys there.....

Nightwolf,
You make a good piont about not seeing beat up benz and beemers. Something to shed some light is to think about how many of those cars were acually sold in the U.S. at that time. IN general there were more cadillacs sold in the U.S so that makes them more avaible to own used ones. If you look at the 90's caddy's and compare them to beemers and benz its about the same. About the people who buy cars for around 5k that is the typical stereo type for the money. You buy cheap so you don't care.

Take my car i own a 92 eldo with 73k on the clock and paid 4k for it. Mine int. is MINT and my ext is near mint with one blemish. I wash and wax it once a week. etc..... etc....

elwesso
12-31-03, 02:54 PM
The main thing that makes them depreciate the most is basically public opinion. People think they cant afford them, or could afford to pay for repairs. Then, people get them, drive them into the ground, do 10,000 mile oil changes and beat the shizzle out of them and when they get repair costs they think they suck. But fact is no car can take that kind of abuse (maybe a honda, but who cares about those) and expect it to still be reliable.

My theory is that the 2nd owner of a car is going to be the worst, overall (if when they buy the car when its less than 6years old). Think about it. 1st owner has it new, they wanna keep it like new. But the second owner gets this 5 or so year old car, and they want it to drive them around, and they dont care about anything else. Then the third owner is screwed making up for what the 2nd didnt do. This only applies to certain cars... You will almost ALWAYS seen a MB, BMW, Lexus, Jaguar, etc of similar years in MUCH better condition (overall), whereas other cars that dont have as good of a public value (cadillac) in much worse conditino, overall....

The main thing about this is value of the car. People will not spend as much money on a 10 year old cadillac as they will on a 10 year old BMW, Lexus, MBz. This starts the endless cycle, as people continue to poorly maintain their "lesser value" cars, they continue to depreciate and depreciate.....

JJhomer83
12-31-03, 02:57 PM
WELL SAID Wes

Night Wolf
12-31-03, 03:34 PM
I am not saying all $5k cars are bad... I am just saying, someone that may have had $5k to spend on a regualr ca,r instead of getting a mid-size family sedan, they are now getting an upscale luxury car.... my Coupe DeVille was $4450.... I was looking at lall high-end luxury cars....including ~'93 BMW..... but the going price for one of those was about $7-10k at the time....for a car that cost the same as my DeVille when new... and that was wayyy too much for me..... so $5k could have got me other cars I was thinking of.....~'94 Taurus SHO, '96-'98 Grand Am GT etc... but that same $5k got my ultra-mint 78k miles DeVille....so I took it....

..... I take very very good care of my car, but to someone that was just planning on getting an everyday sedan or something, they may not take the time out to clean it and wax it, heck everything over with the engine and stuff.....

...like the 80's Broughams, they are wonderful and beautiful cars.... but, like aorund here, there are about 3 that are run into the gorund, all banged up, smoking and everything, and that's what gives them a bad image.....

....I don'e believe I see any 1990+BMX or Benz around here being ran as a beater, all beat up and stuff..... but I see a few DeVilles and Broughams like that....

airbalancer
12-31-03, 03:51 PM
I think what set the price is what dealers can buy the car coming off lease.
We trade a car( we got the car for a daughter going to collage) in when the lease was up the dealer phone GMAC and was unable to buy the car cheaper than the off lease price!
Has only the dealer can make their % off a use car and keep the cash flow going it makes no difference to them what the car sells for. It is all cash flow for a dealer

JJhomer83
12-31-03, 04:19 PM
About seeing beemers and benz. There are plenty in my area philly suburbs.

I see 80's beemers rusted dented and load broken exhaust. I

Sandy
12-31-03, 04:25 PM
Used car prices are set by dealers AT dealers auctions. Dealers are unwilling to pay top dollar for domestic luxury cars as they sit longer on lots until they sell, than do foreign luxury cars. Therefore, in order to make an equal profit they have to buy cheaper, and if she sits a while they lower the price.
However, a low mileage, well cared for car in top condition, will always bring top dollar. What would you pay more for? A 1992 BMW 5 series with 72,000 miles, a miss in the engine, some dents & scratches, faded paint and a cigarette burn in the passenger's seat, or a mint 33,000 1992 Coupe deVille >

Ralph
12-31-03, 10:51 PM
I've always thought you can tell what a person's personality is like by how they keep their car. LOL Just my thoughts, for example, if they keep the car clean, wax often, hurry to the car wash after they put salt on the roads, etc. then they respect or care for things more. If a car is beat-up and not cared for then maybe other things are a priority over the investment of their automobile.

Everyone has good, interesting theories on depreciation, but I can't seem to accept the thought that a Cadillac owner is somehow not as caring or meticulous as a BMW owner. Any car I've had I've always tried to care for it to make it look better than the average Joe's. I've seen many beat-up Benz's and some paint faded Lexuses, but I also see some beat-up Caddies. I just think it depends on if they are a car enthuisiast or not. Either way, these things may effect value of a vehicle, but I think MANY people trade-in or sell when their warrenty is up because they are fearful of expensive repairs. If a vehicle is quality, personally I don't worry about repairs. I also do not "put-off" repairs. If my car needs something, I will go without food until it gets fixed if I have to. :yup:

Elvis
12-31-03, 11:12 PM
WELL SAID Wes

BAH! What does he know!?

When I was his age, I had to get up and walk across the room just to change the damn channel! But that was okay, because there weren't but THREE OF THEM! Hell, if Carter wanted to talk, the whole evening was shot!

And we didn't have these damn AIR BAGS either! If you wrecked one of those cars, you just hammered it back into shape, hosed off the dashboard and sold it to the next guy!

And we didn't have this INTERNET either. If we wanted to know something, we had to go to a place called a LIBRARY and climb a bunch of steps.

E-Mail? Nope. If we wanted to correspond in writing, we had to use a thing called a PENCIL and write on some stuff called PAPER. Then we folded it up, LICKED a stamp, and stuck the envelope in a BOX. One WEEK later, it got there!

PORN? We had to ask some older guy outside the convenience store to go in and buy it for us! It was either THAT, or sneak into Dad's closet and hope we didn't get caught!

STRIKE THAT! We didn't have "convenience stores." We had good old fashioned GAS STATIONS! When you drove through you ran over a rubber hose that went DING! DING! and woke up the attendant who came over and pumped your gas for you! If he wasn't too hung over, he'd check your oil and wash your windshield too!

And what is this RAP crap? When I was Wes's age, so-called "black" music was what you danced to. It was all upbeat, and respectful toward women. Songs like "She's a Bad Mamma Jamma" and "Brick House". Today it's just "Bitch Betta Have My Money!"

And we didn't have this BCS bullhockey either. At the end of the season, AFTER everybody played their bowl games, the writers and the coaches would all get together and vote for who they thought was the best college football team. MOST of the time, the writers would pick one team, and the coaches would pick another, and the rest of us would argue about it for the whole month of January.

Oh yeah. We've still got that.

Happy New Year, Wes! (just havin' some fun with ya') ;)

Spock
01-01-04, 07:55 AM
Whoa what a rant at 39 lol.

I'd hate to be your grandson when you're 80...Regale him with a tale or two hehe :P

davesdeville
01-01-04, 10:55 AM
I think it started back in the 80s when American cars were PsOS (think ht4100 and Cimmarons), foreign cars became more desirable, so American cars went down in value, so the owners of American cars were generally poorer and therefore didn't take as good care of the car. Since then, someone looks at older foreigns and they look better than old domestics, which keeps the value of the domestics down, which perpetuates the cycle.

1toycad
01-01-04, 11:02 AM
I have owned both Caddillacs and Benzes and I have three theories why Benzes hold their value better than Caddies.

One theory has already been explained. Caddies are mass-produced. Benzes, on the other hand, are still limited production. The entire one-year output from MB, for all models, does not even close to overall Caddy numbers. I don't have the fugures in front of me, but when I checked production figures I was surprised how limited Benz's output really is. :yup:

Spare parts for old Benzes are easier to find. Mercedes Benz keeps a large of factory stock parts, from small trim pieces to major engine components, available. I once owned a 1967 250SE, it was a fun little six-banger to drive. It was a very popular Benz model, before Benzes became overpriced. I could walk into the dealer and order any part for it and they'd usually have them in stock. and if not in stock, they could get them withing 48 hours. On the other had, I once needed a door trim piece for my (former) 1988 Seville. The door trim was coming undone (heat damage from So. Cal.'s sunshine). I went to the dealer an dthey nearly laughed me off the Parts Dept. floor. My only hope was to find a good piece in a unkyard OR to manufacture my own. In my opinion, the more extensive the spare parts sources are, the more a car will retain its original value. Even now, I went to the local dealer to order a bottle of touch up paint for my 1999 SLS. Two weeks later, they still odn't have it!:banghead:

The third reason I think Caddies depreciate more is because of GM's policy to use similar components across their production lines. Caddies often share parts with Chevies, Buicks, etc. this practice, per se, does not mean that Caddies are bad cars. But to some buyers it lowers the car's "foo-foo" value. Mercedes may be stepping into this same trap now that it owns Chrysler. Many Chrysler products carry Benz parts. Of course, Chrysler advertises this fact as a plus for its cars "...inside, we are just like a Benz." If Benz started putting Chrysler parts in their cars, Benz owners may not be as happy.:bouncy:

Big depreciation is a fact of life for most luxury cars. As pointed out before, deep depreciaton is a benefit to most buyers. If you don't have to have the newest and the latest, then you can buy a used, 3-year lease return, pay only a fraction of its original value and still drive around in a very, very nice car.:worship:

brougham
01-01-04, 01:15 PM
It had nothing to do with quality that people started buying imports. It's because people needed small cars with good gas milage and GM, Chrysler and Fords weren't selling that.

Cadillacs aren't depreciating in value much differently then any other North American car...

Brett
01-01-04, 02:16 PM
Mercedes was no. 3 last year. Cadillac was no.4 Lexus was 1 and BMW was 2. That should debunk the mass produced argument. Cadillac as of November was only a little behind MB this year though

As of November:

Cadillac 194,028
Mercedes 196,930
BMW 252,020

I dont have Lexus Numbers

1toycad
01-01-04, 02:45 PM
Those figures represent Benz and BMV entire production output, for all of their products, not just large luxury cars.

Brett
01-01-04, 02:49 PM
Correct, I do not have figures for true luxury cars 40k+, the Cadillac numbers do include CTS's and the BMW numbers even include Mini's :)

elwesso
01-01-04, 02:49 PM
Thats very true... And Id dare say more of the BMW and MB sales go to the 3 series and the E class.... Whereas all of cadillacs numbers goto big luxury cars, minus the CTS.....

I still say the fleet sales the deville brings in contributes to it.... I think there are more 3 series sold than CTS.....

Brett
01-01-04, 02:57 PM
I didnt want to hi-jack this thread with a discussion on sales of true lux vs. near-lux. I just wanted to point out that Cdillacs being mass-produced was not a significant contributor to the resale issue. Because factually, they are outsold by 3 other brands. I said it before and Wes remarked as well. Its the Fleet sales, they bring down Deville/Seville. Thats why the CTS and Escalade have much better resale than the rest of Cadillac...NO fleet sales. Im not saying this is the only factor, but it is a major one. Cadillac has commited to cutting fleet sales because they know this. Chevy is keeping the old malibu around as a "classic" just so they dont have to sell the new one to fleets and kill its value as well. Its why my wifes oldsmobile is worthless, near 50% of ALeros in the pat year have gone to fleets, so value is gone.

Ralph
01-01-04, 05:48 PM
I didnt want to hi-jack this thread with a discussion on sales of true lux vs. near-lux. I just wanted to point out that Cdillacs being mass-produced was not a significant contributor to the resale issue. Because factually, they are outsold by 3 other brands. I said it before and Wes remarked as well. Its the Fleet sales, they bring down Deville/Seville. Thats why the CTS and Escalade have much better resale than the rest of Cadillac...NO fleet sales. Im not saying this is the only factor, but it is a major one. Cadillac has commited to cutting fleet sales because they know this. Chevy is keeping the old malibu around as a "classic" just so they dont have to sell the new one to fleets and kill its value as well. Its why my wifes oldsmobile is worthless, near 50% of ALeros in the pat year have gone to fleets, so value is gone.

Plus, I think Olds are losing value rapidly because people may be scared to buy one because the division is dying, and they worry about parts availability. We can still get parts for our 1980 Phoenix coupe V6.

Regarding the new Malibu, I cannot figure out why GM would contract the Koreans to build a similar (if not the same) car as the Malibu, namely the Epica. I think these cars are the same dimensions, options, etc. and they will compete within the Chev. division against each other? I think this will further lower the resale value of the Malibu.

I think Davesdevile has a good point about looking at the perception back in the 80's. One would think, and hope that the perception of inferior quality would have reversed by now!?

Don't worry about hijacking this thread, if it relates in any way to depreciation, I wanna hear it. ;)

Elvis
01-01-04, 06:30 PM
If it weren't for fleet sales, would FoMoCo still be in business?

Also, I truly believe that in the case of Cadillac, perception is nowhere near reality. That's why Cadillac leapt ahead of BMW, Mercedes, Lexus, and Jaguar on my personal preference list. I don't believe that it's possible for those aforementioned cars to be worth twice as much than a Caddy.

So just enjoy it while it lasts. We get to buy a low-cost, high-quality luxury car while the rest of the world shells out a lot more cash, only getting a nice warm feeling in return.

davesdeville
01-01-04, 09:54 PM
It had nothing to do with quality that people started buying imports. It's because people needed small cars with good gas milage and GM, Chrysler and Fords weren't selling that.

Cadillacs aren't depreciating in value much differently then any other North American car...

Good point, that's part of it. But you can't argue that overall the 80s domestics were good.

El Dobro
01-02-04, 12:13 AM
I used to own one of the "horrid" Olds Omegas fron 1981.I bought it used. That so-called piece of junk lasted 250,000 trouble free miles before it bit the dust. It just plain wore out. Who said the GM cars from back then were bad? The auto mags? I've never had any bad luck with the 80's GM cars.

Night Wolf
01-02-04, 12:20 AM
yeah, my father has 180k miles on his '88 Feiro Formula, all orignal, head has never been off, and oil pressure is still really high..... it has lost power, but runs like new....

...my mothers boyfriend has 185k on his '87 Brougham, the carb was rebuilt at 70k miles and the tranny at 150k miles..... he uses the cheap oil and does 5k mile intervals.....

.....before he got the Caddy, he had an '84 Delta 88.....that had 212k miles on it when he sold it, it ran great, but rust was becoming a problem, and he wanted something else....

.....I know of peopel that got over 200k miles out of thier 80's Caprices.....

my winter car....the '89 Eighty Eight.... I am reading about alot of peopel getting over 200k miles out of them with no problem......

.... I don' tthink the 80's were bad cars.... but performance was low (except for the rebirth of the muscle cars) and quality standards wern't too high.... but the late 70's and 80's IS when GM/Ford/Cryelser lost to imports.... when I look at pictures and movies from the 60's..... every car on the road was American...man, I woudl love to see that today..... how many American cars do you see in Japan? Korea? Germany? etc..... they should all go back, and leave us with our American cars......but that will never happen.....

Ralph
01-02-04, 04:30 AM
I used to own one of the "horrid" Olds Omegas fron 1981.I bought it used. That so-called piece of junk lasted 250,000 trouble free miles before it bit the dust. It just plain wore out. Who said the GM cars from back then were bad? The auto mags? I've never had any bad luck with the 80's GM cars.

Our 1980 GM X-car has been great, still running good, and the valve covers were never off it! My mom bought it new and has been with me ever since then, as I know the entire history of it. These cars were considered lemons by such publications as "Lemon Aid." I don't think I would have considered other GM models causing depreciation to Cadillacs, but it seems perfectly plausible I guess. Then again, did the Ford Pinto reputation ever hurt Lincoln TownCar sales? I have no idea.

The general consensus around here seems to be that the 4.1 and 4.5 were "junkie" engines. Is this true, OR was it simply that (at the time) people were not ready for downsized engines and cars immediately after the gas crisis of 1979? Perhaps these cars were not respected because we were "forced" to buy them instead of a new 500 cubic in. monster. Therefore, they were not taken care of and began the reputation of "inferior" American quality, contributing to the depreciation rates we have today? :confused:

DaveSmed
01-02-04, 04:46 AM
I've heard the 4.5s were pretty good. take a look at this thread (http://cadillacforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6270) 218k and the only complaint is a rich condition once it's warmed up. Not too bad.

Ralph
01-03-04, 06:25 AM
I wonder if parts availability and cost has anything to do with depreciation? I am guessing that Cadillac parts are cheaper than Lexus parts, so could "cheap" somehow be percieved as "inferior?" "Lack of quality" is a statement that should not even be on the same page as the word "Cadillac" today. I believe now that they are just as good as a Japanese luxury car. Am I crazy for wanting to believe this!?

I still think if people did not panic when the warranty was up, and keep them, they would hold value better over time. Also, if there are so many in the used car lot, and not cared for, why are so many produced? I realize profit is the motive for production, but whats the point if they look like hell and that hurts the rep of these cars. I don't want to think I am driving a car and the guy next to me at a red light in a Mercedes has a superior car, with a smug look on his face because he thinks I've already somehow "lost." This is not the case IMO. I think these cars cost enough new, and that alone should be enough to earn respect at the stoplight.

Night Wolf
01-03-04, 01:14 PM
about the parts thing... I can't get any part for my '93, let alone any info, history, warrantee work or anything...and it really sucks too...they are pretty much like, go to a junkyard or ebay or someting....ahhh....

brougham
01-03-04, 03:02 PM
about the parts thing... I can't get any part for my '93, let alone any info, history, warrantee work or anything...and it really sucks too...they are pretty much like, go to a junkyard or ebay or someting....ahhh....

Unless they just discontinued everything very recently you probably just have a crappy dealer. There should be quite a few things still available.
:disappoin

El Dobro
01-03-04, 03:13 PM
I would bet it's the dealer. I can still get parts for my Allante and they made a heck of a lot less of them than they did Devilles.

Ralph
01-03-04, 11:37 PM
about the parts thing... I can't get any part for my '93, let alone any info, history, warrantee work or anything...and it really sucks too...they are pretty much like, go to a junkyard or ebay or someting....ahhh....

Parts availability shouldn't be a prob for your 1993. I couldn't get the radio cass. player new anymore, so I paid a lot more to have the old one fixed. We can still get parts for our 24 year old Pontiac, and they only made the Phoenix for 4 years. (prototype to the Grand Am IMO) The only thing I could not get is the radiator. Oh wait, you have one of the rare 2 doors,well no onder! :histeric: Just kidding. I don't think your dealer has much motivation or is just lazy.

Ed_B
01-04-04, 12:47 AM
It had nothing to do with quality that people started buying imports. It's because people needed small cars with good gas milage and GM, Chrysler and Fords weren't selling that.

I'm afraid that I just HAVE to disagree with this. My wife once bought a 1981 Pontiac station wagon... mid-sized car for back then, with V6 engine and auto trans. This sucker was a complete POS. It cost us thousands in repair bills and damn near killed us when the auto tranny decided on its own to shift to 1st gear... at 70 mph. We were 300 miles from home at the time... at night... in the rain... and ended up spending over $1000 to have a rebuilt 350 TH tranny swapped in for the POS light tranny that was the original equipment. This was a 3400 lb car and it should NEVER have had the same tranny as the small Pontiacs. This junker was 2.5 years old and had less than 35,000 miles on it by this time. And yes, it was WELL maintained. For what it cost and its repair bills, we could have bought a brand new Caddy. I swore (and how!) that I would NEVER own a GM car ever again. I kept that vow for 20 years; maybe not forever but close enough for gov't. work.

In any case, my gripe with US built cars back then was that they were poorly made and had lousy build quality, fit, and finish. Poor gas mileage was just another symptom of a poorly designed and built engine. Heck, Honda built some special heads for a Chev 350 V8 back in the late 1970s that were based on their CVCC technology. These gave the 350 V8 15% more HP, better gas mileage, and met all proposed air emission regs for the next several years without a catalytic converter. But GM would not buy the design from them; ostensibly due to the "not invented here syndrome".

I'm sure that there are as many reasons why people do or do not like certain products as there are people. My reason was completely based on quality and, although exceptions certainly existed, the mid-70s to mid-80s US built cars were very poorly made in general.


Ed_B
1999 Eldorado

Ralph
01-04-04, 02:02 AM
I'm afraid that I just HAVE to disagree with this. My wife once bought a 1981 Pontiac station wagon... mid-sized car for back then, with V6 engine and auto trans. This sucker was a complete POS. It cost us thousands in repair bills and damn near killed us when the auto tranny decided on its own to shift to 1st gear... at 70 mph. We were 300 miles from home at the time... at night... in the rain... and ended up spending over $1000 to have a rebuilt 350 TH tranny swapped in for the POS light tranny that was the original equipment. This was a 3400 lb car and it should NEVER have had the same tranny as the small Pontiacs. This junker was 2.5 years old and had less than 35,000 miles on it by this time. And yes, it was WELL maintained. For what it cost and its repair bills, we could have bought a brand new Caddy. I swore (and how!) that I would NEVER own a GM car ever again. I kept that vow for 20 years; maybe not forever but close enough for gov't. work.

In any case, my gripe with US built cars back then was that they were poorly made and had lousy build quality, fit, and finish. Poor gas mileage was just another symptom of a poorly designed and built engine. Heck, Honda built some special heads for a Chev 350 V8 back in the late 1970s that were based on their CVCC technology. These gave the 350 V8 15% more HP, better gas mileage, and met all proposed air emission regs for the next several years without a catalytic converter. But GM would not buy the design from them; ostensibly due to the "not invented here syndrome".

I'm sure that there are as many reasons why people do or do not like certain products as there are people. My reason was completely based on quality and, although exceptions certainly existed, the mid-70s to mid-80s US built cars were very poorly made in general.


Ed_B
1999 Eldorado

To be fair, even Honda lets out a lemon once in a while. Check their Forum on this one. I'll bet every manufacturer lets out some lemons ans judging by Consumer Report and others, many if not all have recalls for serious or minor things. The GM Xcar of 1980 had a lot of problems with things from paint peeling, brakes locking for no reason (that one took ten years to settle in court) to wrong sized camshafts that jammed up engines. Ours was and is great, with no major repairs or rust today, even with our salt on the streets. If all GM cars were as reliable as our LiL'GTO, then GM would have a great rep today. Ford had the pinto, and Chryslers had many quality issues even in the 1970's. I'll wager BMW has recalls and some problems but is their depreciation hurt, prob not? I think most of depreciation is psychological, some is quality, and some is an overabundance of them at the car lot.

El Dobro
01-04-04, 03:06 AM
I mentioned on another thread about an Acura service manager that told us he wouldn't own one. They're having problems with sudden downshifts on the highway. And let's not forget the infamous Toyota sludge problem that they won't own up to. Yes, they all have their skeletons in the closet. It just seems that the American news media only lets the ones of the domestic manufacturers out.

elwesso
01-04-04, 01:09 PM
To be fair, even Honda lets out a lemon once in a while. Check their Forum on this one. I'll bet every manufacturer lets out some lemons ans judging by Consumer Report and others, many if not all have recalls for serious or minor things. The GM Xcar of 1980 had a lot of problems with things from paint peeling, brakes locking for no reason (that one took ten years to settle in court) to wrong sized camshafts that jammed up engines. Ours was and is great, with no major repairs or rust today, even with our salt on the streets. If all GM cars were as reliable as our LiL'GTO, then GM would have a great rep today. Ford had the pinto, and Chryslers had many quality issues even in the 1970's. I'll wager BMW has recalls and some problems but is their depreciation hurt, prob not? I think most of depreciation is psychological, some is quality, and some is an overabundance of them at the car lot.
I agree... BMW has always been seen as a superior automobile to almost anything......

I dare say 70% of the deprecation factor is the public eye.... Even if lexus starts making really crappy cars, I think it will take a good 10 years for them to start seeing a hit on it......

Ralph
01-04-04, 09:30 PM
I agree... BMW has always been seen as a superior automobile to almost anything......

I dare say 70% of the deprecation factor is the public eye.... Even if lexus starts making really crappy cars, I think it will take a good 10 years for them to start seeing a hit on it......

I agree to agree to this. ;)

I guess it's time for some "damage control" then. To put more people at ease and ensure them that they are buying a quality automobile with Cadillac, what can GM do to reassure people they are worth consideration, or does this area need to be considered?

Would extending the warrenty put more people at ease in purchasing a car with a lot of "toys" on it? Would offering a better warrenty convince people to keep their Cadillacs longer? They should come up with some "tricks" up their sleeves.

airbalancer
01-04-04, 09:37 PM
But how many people rememder the civic that would rust out in three years in the 70's

elwesso
01-04-04, 09:42 PM
I think offering a better thought our array of toys would be better... Most people arent gonna care about the seats the conform to your ass, or some of those other worthless things... Fun to boast about, but overall not worth anything..... I dont think offering a warranty will do anyhting because people still will get rid of them after the warranty is up if it goes in for a lot of times......

Bottom line.... They need to start making cars good enough so they dont go into the dealer for repairs.... its somewhat expected that they will start having SOME problems after the warranty, but having all of these failures at early ages are terrible..... Electrical things are one thing but mechanical things are uncalled for IMO...

In the past year, I have had 2 of my friends who own brand new GM cars... One has a 02 buick rendezvous, and the oil pump went out, had to have the engine replaced under warranty.. The second had an 03 grand prix, and it threw a rod... WTF these are brand new cars and their having failures that msot cars with 200+k dont have!!!!

Ralph
01-04-04, 09:47 PM
But how many people rememder the civic that would rust out in three years in the 70's

You're right, but they are still running around on the streets, I see a few of those tiny 70's Civics, so they must be built good. Come to think of it, I still see too many VW Bugs from the 1970's!

New Toyota minnivans about ten or twelve years ago all rusted in a couple of years, their problem apparently was that they used double sided or two layers of steel dor the body, moisture set in and that was that.

Ralph
01-04-04, 09:51 PM
I think offering a better thought our array of toys would be better... Most people arent gonna care about the seats the conform to your ass, or some of those other worthless things... Fun to boast about, but overall not worth anything..... I dont think offering a warranty will do anyhting because people still will get rid of them after the warranty is up if it goes in for a lot of times......

Bottom line.... They need to start making cars good enough so they dont go into the dealer for repairs.... its somewhat expected that they will start having SOME problems after the warranty, but having all of these failures at early ages are terrible..... Electrical things are one thing but mechanical things are uncalled for IMO...

In the past year, I have had 2 of my friends who own brand new GM cars... One has a 02 buick rendezvous, and the oil pump went out, had to have the engine replaced under warranty.. The second had an 03 grand prix, and it threw a rod... WTF these are brand new cars and their having failures that msot cars with 200+k dont have!!!!

That 2003 GP, I am guessing that it is being leased? (and possibly abused?) Because we all know someone and how they treat a certain leased GP, eh Wes?? Eh? Eh? :D

elwesso
01-04-04, 09:55 PM
HAHA!! :histeric: Ours is an 02 and if I drove it more it WOULD have thrown a rod!!!! :D

Gotta love driving 5 miles all in 1st gear... Going 35mph and running 4000 RPM, that definitely turns a few heads!!! :D

Ralph
01-04-04, 10:09 PM
HAHA!! :histeric: Ours is an 02 and if I drove it more it WOULD have thrown a rod!!!! :D

Gotta love driving 5 miles all in 1st gear... Going 35mph and running 4000 RPM, that definitely turns a few heads!!! :D

LOL! Ladies and gentlemen, this is the reason I won't buy a leased vehicle! :D Or anything that was "tested" under GM's new Overnight plan offering. With Saturn, you have a month to return the car after purchase, and I wonder how they are treated in that month by some? I think if I bought a new Saturn, I would make sure it had 2 miles on it first! :(

elwesso
01-04-04, 10:18 PM
Yes. Leased vehicles are the worst IMO.... Why do 3000 mile oil changes, why not redline it after 30 seconds of running.... WHO CARES IT JUST NEEDS TO LAST TILL THE END OF THE TERM!!!

Elvis
01-04-04, 10:39 PM
Some manufacturers contractually require lessees to meet a maintenance schedule. There's some kind of fine at the end of the term if you fail to make a certain number of trips to the dealership during your term. I had an Acura RL like that.

Honda/Acura HAS had some serious problems with their early "Sport Shift" transmissions. Knock on wood, I'm still okay with my Prelude.

El Dobro
01-04-04, 11:54 PM
And how much did the news media blast over the airwaves about the Honda/Acura trans problems? Nothing I ever saw, but when Saturn decided to voluntarily recall it's cars back in the early 90's to change a wire because it may heat up, it was all over the news. One news person came on in a frenzy warning us to get our Saturns back to the dealer right away because it's going to burn to the ground. None did.

Ralph
01-05-04, 12:18 AM
Some manufacturers contractually require lessees to meet a maintenance schedule. There's some kind of fine at the end of the term if you fail to make a certain number of trips to the dealership during your term. I had an Acura RL like that.

Honda/Acura HAS had some serious problems with their early "Sport Shift" transmissions. Knock on wood, I'm still okay with my Prelude.

In 2003, my friend bought a new Civic, and I cannot believe the recommended oil change interval is 8,000 kms! Anyone that cares for their car should do it in half that amount. IMO. I NEVER go more than 4,000 kms.

I am seriously in love with the Acura TL right now (as you are Elvis :D ) and I hope there is nothing wrong with these cars? The NHTSA safety rating is not out for them yet, and I don't even know if they are selling well, but I think it could be my next car. My Caddy has a long way to go though.

As for Cadillac quality, remember Wes, we are number 2 right now (JD Power) or has it changed? I think the cars are ok now, it is the image that seems to be tarnished or something. As for more toys in these cars, I think they are stuffed to the nuts already. More toys may = more repairs!!

Ralph
01-05-04, 12:22 AM
Yes. Leased vehicles are the worst IMO.... Why do 3000 mile oil changes, why not redline it after 30 seconds of running.... WHO CARES IT JUST NEEDS TO LAST TILL THE END OF THE TERM!!!

:cookoo: :histeric: :cookoo: :eek:

Ralph
01-05-04, 12:29 AM
And how much did the news media blast over the airwaves about the Honda/Acura trans problems? Nothing I ever saw, but when Saturn decided to voluntarily recall it's cars back in the early 90's to change a wire because it may heat up, it was all over the news. One news person came on in a frenzy warning us to get our Saturns back to the dealer right away because it's going to burn to the ground. None did.


You know, I think Saturn is a real milestone and something Americans should be very proud of! They are built in Tenn. and beat Honda and many others for quality and dependability. If you check Consumer Reports they get excellent results! I think there are many recalls from all manufacturers and many never get fixed with no detriment to safety and functioning.

David Schlichting
01-06-04, 11:01 PM
We see many references here to vehicles with 100,000 miles or what it cost to repair another GM brand or whatever.
If we consider our Cadillac to be a luxury brand, should we focus our comparison on what a given repair costs on a Cadillac vs MB, BMW or Lexus? Not that I've researched it, but I find it hard to believe that it costs more to do, for example, a water pump on my Seville than on an E320.
That's one level of comparison. The frequency that these various repairs might occur goes to the quality / durability comparison. My 2000 SLS has had only the crank sensors (warranty) and front brake pads replaced. Am I typical? Could I have done any better with a BMW or Lexus?
I question also if fleet sales are the issue. Our recent trip to Kansas City for Christmas found Camry's, Maxima's and Outback's on the Hertz lot --along with those annoying Tauri. But unless the owner of a competitive luxury brand rents a Cadillac on trip he/she will never experience the product. But they probably shop price just like I do --and end up with a Regal or some other uninspired GM product which only serves to confirm their feelings about American brand.
But as one who has bought new (SOMEONE has to give you guys a source of cheap used Cadillacs!) I am still left with the simple math:
I paid $44,000 for my SLS in JUN00 which is worth $23,000-$25,000 now.
An MB E320 would have cost me +-$50,000 and worth $32,000-$34,000 now.
No matter how good my experiance with Cadillac, it's hard to accept this loss.

Ralph
01-07-04, 09:33 PM
We see many references here to vehicles with 100,000 miles or what it cost to repair another GM brand or whatever.
If we consider our Cadillac to be a luxury brand, should we focus our comparison on what a given repair costs on a Cadillac vs MB, BMW or Lexus? Not that I've researched it, but I find it hard to believe that it costs more to do, for example, a water pump on my Seville than on an E320.
That's one level of comparison. The frequency that these various repairs might occur goes to the quality / durability comparison. My 2000 SLS has had only the crank sensors (warranty) and front brake pads replaced. Am I typical? Could I have done any better with a BMW or Lexus?
I question also if fleet sales are the issue. Our recent trip to Kansas City for Christmas found Camry's, Maxima's and Outback's on the Hertz lot --along with those annoying Tauri. But unless the owner of a competitive luxury brand rents a Cadillac on trip he/she will never experience the product. But they probably shop price just like I do --and end up with a Regal or some other uninspired GM product which only serves to confirm their feelings about American brand.
But as one who has bought new (SOMEONE has to give you guys a source of cheap used Cadillacs!) I am still left with the simple math:
I paid $44,000 for my SLS in JUN00 which is worth $23,000-$25,000 now.
An MB E320 would have cost me +-$50,000 and worth $32,000-$34,000 now.
No matter how good my experiance with Cadillac, it's hard to accept this loss.

Have you noticed, David, that Cadillacs seem to depreciate rapidly the first few years, then level off and hold a bit after that? For BMW, or others, it sems like the opposite, they hold at first when new, THEN decline rapidly! This is something I forgot to mention in this thread, although I've mentioned it months ago. We know all cars depreciate, but maybe there is a perception that somehow a new Domestic luxury car should not be worth as much as a fairly new Import? The question is then, do you think the Mercedes will hold equal or better to a same year Cadillac when it gets old?

Regarding frequency of repairs, supposedly Mercedes is tied with Chevy for quality in the last while. (12th place) Supposedly, because Mercedes invested so much in Chrysler to get their quality "up to snuff," so they had to take the money from somewhere. I know BMW has had some problems, check their Forum, but I would really like to compare a 2 year old Mercedes with an equal year Cadillac for repairs.

Regarding cost of repairs, at our local GM dealership, it advertizes tune-ups, repairs, etc, for Cadillacs and Vans as "extra cost for these!" I guess this is a price to pay for owning a status symbol, or GM is taking of advantage of those who have advantages? Either way, it is obvious we are expected to pay more perhaps because the parts are exclusive, or it is the image of the product.

Night Wolf
01-08-04, 03:56 PM
Have you noticed, David, that Cadillacs seem to depreciate rapidly the first few years, then level off and hold a bit after that? For BMW, or others, it sems like the opposite, they hold at first when new, THEN decline rapidly! This is something I forgot to mention in this thread, although I've mentioned it months ago. We know all cars depreciate, but maybe there is a perception that somehow a new Domestic luxury car should not be worth as much as a fairly new Import? The question is then, do you think the Mercedes will hold equal or better to a same year Cadillac when it gets old?

Regarding frequency of repairs, supposedly Mercedes is tied with Chevy for quality in the last while. (12th place) Supposedly, because Mercedes invested so much in Chrysler to get their quality "up to snuff," so they had to take the money from somewhere. I know BMW has had some problems, check their Forum, but I would really like to compare a 2 year old Mercedes with an equal year Cadillac for repairs.

Regarding cost of repairs, at our local GM dealership, it advertizes tune-ups, repairs, etc, for Cadillacs and Vans as "extra cost for these!" I guess this is a price to pay for owning a status symbol, or GM is taking of advantage of those who have advantages? Either way, it is obvious we are expected to pay more perhaps because the parts are exclusive, or it is the image of the product.

'93 BMW is going for ~$8 while the '93 DeVille is about 4k

maybe the extra cost is becuase the N* and a van are more harder to work on?

if not, then it all comes down to people that spend more on something think they are getting something better.... So while Bob spends $30 on an oil change for his Chevy, you spend $40 for the same oil change on your Cadillac..... same oil and filter, but just more money.... old saying... I don't remember it correctly, but it went something like, pay too little and you think something was wrong and don't respect it, pay too much and you treat the item better and think you are better then somone who paid less for the same item/service....

Ralph
01-10-04, 03:29 AM
'93 BMW is going for ~$8 while the '93 DeVille is about 4k

maybe the extra cost is becuase the N* and a van are more harder to work on?

if not, then it all comes down to people that spend more on something think they are getting something better.... So while Bob spends $30 on an oil change for his Chevy, you spend $40 for the same oil change on your Cadillac..... same oil and filter, but just more money.... old saying... I don't remember it correctly, but it went something like, pay too little and you think something was wrong and don't respect it, pay too much and you treat the item better and think you are better then somone who paid less for the same item/service....

LOL, that's funny, and most likely true! :crying: I guess my theory was blown out of the water discovering that Lexus made more cars than Cadillac recently! So much for exclusivity contributing to resale value :cookoo: I wonder if Lexus is gutsy enough to charge more for an oil change over a Corolla or Camry? Or more for Acura over a similar Honda.

Ralph
01-12-04, 02:52 AM
Another reason for depreciation could be letting out the occasional "LEMON."
Are there any Cadillacs that have been rated or labelled as "Lemons?"

elwesso
01-12-04, 05:51 PM
Of course.... I dare say every car company has had a true "lemon"..... Even the most reliable company on the market, toyota/lexus :rolleyes: .... And their the ones with the sludge problem and they deny it!! :rolleyes2:

Ralph
01-14-04, 01:18 AM
Of course.... I dare say every car company has had a true "lemon"..... Even the most reliable company on the market, toyota/lexus :rolleyes: .... And their the ones with the sludge problem and they deny it!! :rolleyes2:


Sludge problem :confused: Oil, coolant? First I've heard of it. See, the Japs do a good cover-up. :disappoin

airbalancer
01-14-04, 08:12 AM
Would it help if the dealers were in a separte building.
In Canada , Caddies are in same building as either Pontic-Buick- GMC or Chevy-Old dealers. While M-B, BMW,etc have their own building. Our local deal would only have about three caddies on the lot.

El Dobro
01-14-04, 09:11 PM
Do a search on "Toyota sludge" and you'll see all the complaints.

Ralph
01-15-04, 03:14 AM
Would it help if the dealers were in a separte building.
In Canada , Caddies are in same building as either Pontic-Buick- GMC or Chevy-Old dealers. While M-B, BMW,etc have their own building. Our local deal would only have about three caddies on the lot.

I think it makes sense to combine because in smaller towns I never see a MB or BMW dealership. It's smart for GM because if someone is looking for a Buick fully loaded, they might see that Caddy over there and like it enough to buy it. ;) In my hometown, they never have more than 3 Caddies either.

RERM
06-18-04, 12:21 AM
With all due respect I think most of you guys are totally off. First, my family owned several '80's BMW's, a Mercedes an Olds 98 and a Cadillac. All were purchased new. The Olds was a 1986 98, one of the famous talking cars (drivers door is ajar!!!), it was a nightmare we owned for 18 months, 16 of which it spent in the Dealer Service department before we returned it as a Lemon. My dad was in love with GM and american cars in general (never having owned a luxury import)at the time, so he bought a 1987 Cadillac, (essentially the same car with a V8 and a more squared off look)9 months later, after 6 trips to the Dealer (who was always full so we had to make "service appointments" weeks in advance) he sold it, devastated (he had owned Cadillac in the late 60's and loved it) we went, at a friends urging to BMW. What a change!!! the dealer treated us like they owed it to us to make the experience premium!!! he bought a 1987 BMW 325es (no dealer trips other than for warranty check ups, owned it for 10 years and 112,000 miles), the thing was so good he bought my mother a 1988 BMW 535i, what a car, great engine, no problems 54k untill a drunk driver totalled it. Then my dad bought her and my sister each a 1989 Peugeot 505's (remember those!!!) well they were bulletproof (even after Peugeot left the US), meanwhile my other sister got a 1989 BMW 318i. These European cars were all owned for a minimum of 8 years, no problems other than regular maintenance. Then he just had to come back to the US cars...1990 Grand Am for my third sister...lasted 2 years..before it seemed to fall apart (so many trim pieces fell off it was pathetic)...so...

What I'm trying to illustrate is ...american build quality was abysmal..while european build quality was superior...(of course, there's always exceptions, but one bad car,,,,ok I guess...three, HELLO!!!)

At the same time (and in sharp contrast to american cars) a reputation for quality, good looks and performance was created by the high end european brands (backed by JD Power reports,,yes the same ones that now place Cadillac #2) well, when selling cars to a car buying public who generally knows squat about cars (85-90% of car buyers I would dare say) PERCEPTION IS KEY!!!.

Even now, I bought an STS based on the fact that I believe perception is behind reality. I could've bought a BMW, I would have had to buy a 1999 540i to stay in budget, or a 3 series. I simply was not willing to pay such a premium. I believe my STS to be more than an equal to the 540i, maybe the BMW is sportier, so what, it's not $10,000 better. But in the 80's and early 90's they were, Period. Admit it, accept it.
Be happy that it is no longer the case and pray GM does not fall back in the hands of the beancounters who almost killed it.

Enjoy your Caddies folks, cause I for one love mine.

Ralph
06-18-04, 02:15 AM
What I'm trying to illustrate is ...american build quality was abysmal.

I think the key word here is "was." ;) Many will agree with you about the mid to late '80's GM cars as being a bit "wanting" in certain aspects but I truly believe they got their act together today. My new concern is that the so called Cady Saabs that will be coming out in Europe will somehow cause more depreciation issues in Caddies over here. I also think that in the 1980's, German cars may have been better than American, but times change.

You mentioned a 1990 Grand Am falling appart, but I can use our 1980 Phoenix (called a lemon) as a great example of a car quickly built for the gasoline crisis of 1979, and very little has gone wrong with it. I think it really depends on maintenance and care, and respect. I "love" my cars, maybe that helps? :hmm:

I still check the classifieds weekly and I still see that Caddies only depreciate heavily in the first few years, then tend tolevel off. Since most people (where I live) seem to get rid of them after 4 years when the warrenty is up, who cares about depreciation because by that time if they are cared for, they hold their own. Proof in point, I was offered $22,000 Cdn for mine (should have taken it!) :rant2: and it is now 13 years old in perfect shape! Who knows, they may even APPRECIATE over time? :D

sidenote: checked out theBMW 5 series today at the dealer :hide: WOW! what a nice car! Lotsa technology on it, feels solid, but I just couldn't help thinking, it's no legend like a Cadillac. Not in my mind. My family and I will continue to support and purchase American cars because they ultimately help the North American economy IMO. This may also help fight depreciation. ;)

vanaisa
06-18-04, 07:09 AM
OK, here is my view, from other side of ocean:
We have here same situation, like you, only cars are different - here cheapest and worst looking/bad technical condition cars are those same 3 & 5 BMW-s, up to 90-s MBs and of course lots of japanese junk-cars. Jes, all parts are available in stores, but still they are unrepaired and cheap. In other side, we have small amount of US cars, and they are generally in good/best + condition (and get parts to them is´nt so easy).
I think, it just, that if you have car, what is rare in streets, then you take good care of it. If you have some ´85 MB, you think: "why put money to this, i can always buy another similar car cheap".
My point is, that people always like more those cars, what you cant see any day. Your problem in US is, that you have simply too much US-built cars ;)
And other thing - gas prices are factor too - 20 years ago i never heard, that someone in US complaining about high gas prices - now you do...and still you have cheapest gas in the world (exept Kuwait and other arab countries of course), so if gas prices are high, is need to buy smaller/more economical cars.
In Europe gas prices are always high, so here all manufacturers must build smaller/better gas economy cars. And those cars have good demand in US too (and most of them was cheap too - remember VW Käfer, for example).
And for richer people MB, BMW and others sold their top-of-the-line cars - half hand made, super quality, bigger engines etc. There was not big demand for those models (by the way - here you can walk to the dealer and get latest MB without any delay - i think, it just trick, to ask more money from you, as they are "specially built orders").

Just my thoughts...

RERM
06-19-04, 09:45 AM
Ralph, I agree about the improved quality, hence why I bought a Cadillac. But it will take a few years before perception catches up with reality.

Ralph
06-19-04, 04:59 PM
OK, here is my view, from other side of ocean:
We have here same situation, like you, only cars are different - here cheapest and worst looking/bad technical condition cars are those same 3 & 5 BMW-s, up to 90-s MBs and of course lots of japanese junk-cars. Jes, all parts are available in stores, but still they are unrepaired and cheap. In other side, we have small amount of US cars, and they are generally in good/best + condition (and get parts to them is´nt so easy).
I think, it just, that if you have car, what is rare in streets, then you take good care of it. If you have some ´85 MB, you think: "why put money to this, i can always buy another similar car cheap".
My point is, that people always like more those cars, what you cant see any day. Your problem in US is, that you have simply too much US-built cars ;)
And other thing - gas prices are factor too - 20 years ago i never heard, that someone in US complaining about high gas prices - now you do...and still you have cheapest gas in the world (exept Kuwait and other arab countries of course), so if gas prices are high, is need to buy smaller/more economical cars.
In Europe gas prices are always high, so here all manufacturers must build smaller/better gas economy cars. And those cars have good demand in US too (and most of them was cheap too - remember VW Käfer, for example).
And for richer people MB, BMW and others sold their top-of-the-line cars - half hand made, super quality, bigger engines etc. There was not big demand for those models (by the way - here you can walk to the dealer and get latest MB without any delay - i think, it just trick, to ask more money from you, as they are "specially built orders").

Just my thoughts...

Good points! I wonder if fuel economy will influence what is purchased in NA. I want the good-old-days back!

charles smith
06-22-04, 10:56 PM
I think people don't keep them long enough, or they trade them in, therefore, they are too numerous on dealership lots and the prices come down just to get rid of them. Perhaps if there were fewer made, they would be more exclusive and the value would go up. Any thoughts?Not true. Cadillac is making them almost impossible to own after the warrenty is up by denying reasonable maintanance in their own shops, and denying info necessary to maintain them to independent shops. I think the average new Cadillac buyer rarely drives them beyond the warranty period, and all who drive them into shops out of warranty are viewed as second or third owners, no help to the assembly line. I also perceive that Cadillac is trying very hard to erase the image from the public's mind of old Cadillacs parked in ghetto areas in front of run-down shacks with big TV antennas, the image of the favorite ride of the ghetto dweller. They want them routed straight to the metal recyclers at 50,001 miles.

Ralph
06-23-04, 01:51 AM
Not true. Cadillac is making them almost impossible to own after the warrenty is up by denying reasonable maintanance in their own shops, and denying info necessary to maintain them to independent shops. I think the average new Cadillac buyer rarely drives them beyond the warranty period, and all who drive them into shops out of warranty are viewed as second or third owners, no help to the assembly line. I also perceive that Cadillac is trying very hard to erase the image from the public's mind of old Cadillacs parked in ghetto areas in front of run-down shacks with big TV antennas, the image of the favorite ride of the ghetto dweller. They want them routed straight to the metal recyclers at 50,001 miles.

Hi Charles. Those are very good points about maintenance because you're correct, they are so advanced technology wise, that you pretty much have to go in to the dealer for service! For a backyard mechanic who is leary to tinker with it, they won't bother buying it in the first place! One thing I noticed (do they do it where you live?) is that they always advertize charging extra "for vans and Cadillacs" at our Cadillac dealership in their flyer. I guess they are implying that they made them more difficult to work on, so it will end up costing you and I more to fix based on their design, etc. :rant2:

I think it's great to have a car when it's under warrenty for peace of mind, but I still think that because there are so many around it also hurts resale value. Your theory is sound in my book :)

airbalancer
06-23-04, 08:53 AM
In Canada you get 4 year 50000 mile maintence in the warrenty , including oil changes
The local dealer does not charge extra for the oil changes with the extra 2 litres of oil
If you check autotrader there not many caddies on site not many newer caddies on the site.
Caddies depreciate more rapidly than others is old news. We should talk about how great the new Caddies are.
Hey Ralph, I bet if they built at the Oshawa plant they would rated #1! :)

Ralph
06-23-04, 07:16 PM
Hey Ralph, I bet if they built at the Oshawa plant they would rated #1! :)

Pretty much everything that is built in Ontario has a 5 star quality rating, case in point, the Mercury Grand Marquis. This would help resale value, one would think. The 300 Chryslers are built there also but haven't heard about ratings yet.

Imprl59
06-24-04, 02:49 PM
Here's my southern perspective on the topic:

I think it all comes down to image.

The 70s Cadi's lasted forever. Drive train was bullet proof and they just wouldn't die. So they ended up being owned by people like me at the time who could never afford to own a luxury car or maintain it in an acceptable manner. A big part of the luxury sell is the name and the exclusivity of the item. A status item for lack of a better term. So now why would I as "Mr. Rich Banker" want to buy a Cadillac when every poor boy in town had one too. They still looked amazingly the same.. How was I to impress my friends? Mercedes! Nobody has one of these!

Then to add insult to injury the remaining loyal Cadillac customers bought 4100 equipped cars. Unfortunatley compared to previous engines the 4100 was just junk. Many a Cadillac customer was burned by those cars and nobody wanted to buy one used. More damage to the resale value.

As of the mid 90's I still don't think that Cadillac had the quality control issues in hand. I love my '94 buy I am disappointed in some of the problems it has had and surely wouldn't reccomend one to anybody who didnt have a disposable income and could do the work themselves. Are they better today? I'll probably never know because I don't care for the styling of the newer cars.


I have to comment on the other GM 80s reliability as well...

I had an '83 Camaro as 2nd owner. 250k before I sold it.. Trans rebuild but engine had never had anything bigger than a waterpump replaced.

'88 Olds 98 200k and still going strong. Gave it to a friend in need and it shows no signs of dying.

85k 98. Noboby knows how many miles but over 280k. Buddys done two transmissions since I passed it on 150k ago but it is still going strong.

Just look at the cars that poorer people drive today to see what has held up. Down here its extremely rare to see an early 80's imported anything but those big body GM's with the 305 are thicker than fleas.. Some of them are smoking and none of them are very pretty anymore but they are everywhere and still chugging along.

Steve B.

barge master
06-25-04, 02:21 AM
No question the used Caddy has an image stereotype associated with it. But the unfortunate truth is not all of us are in a position to buy top dollar new cars,nor do all of us want to. Steve has an excellent point about the image that wealthier people have given to the imports. People look at the imports as some kind of long term investment or something. I work on all sorts of cars every day, and as much as the engines may start and run, the euro cars start falling apart just like any other machine when they get old.The difference is the bucks they cost to fix which are huge. Try finding an old BMW the drivers seat isn't broken on, or the door handles don't come off in your hand. It's more a matter of percieved value than anything.

RERM
06-25-04, 11:22 PM
Imprl59 , three new transmissions on 2 cars before 300K miles!!! WOW, now that's reliability and QUALITY!!.

1985 BMW 318i, bought it off the original owner in 1990 at 121K, drove it for 11 years to 334K. No rebuilt transmissions, no new engines, not even a new alternator.

1979 MB 380, sold in 1992, 312K miles, no rebuilt anything (only proper maintenance)

1989 Peugeot 505GLS, sold 1998, 210K miles, 9 years, no rebuilt anything.

Like I said before, I think american reliability has improved a lot, enough so I voted with my money. But let's not try to deny reality, '80s reliability for american cars was, at best, hit or miss. European car quality and reliability was, in general, leagues apart.

Enjoy you're Cadillacs everyone.

:cool:

ben72227
06-26-04, 12:15 AM
Here's my southern perspective on the topic:

I think it all comes down to image.

Yeah, i agree. i live down in the south as well and it is true that a lot of folks in the ghettos have Caddys, but most of those caddys are 80s models and some 70s and early 90s models. THe white folks here go for the newer ones. the late 90s lincolns and caddys. I think they're a bit cautious when it comes to the new caddys with the style change. you know old folks, they like things simple.

But even in my 1980 eldorado, people still look at me and say, "wow, you're 16 and you have cadillac?" and some people will try to call it a "hooptie (http://www.stillruns.com/index.php)" P.O.S. cause its so old....until they see the inside. with the couch leather, 6 way power seats, teak wood grain, digital climate control (a lot of people that aren't familiar with caddys don't know about us having digital climate control and so they're like WOW when they see it), etc. They also aren't familiar with the Cadillac suspension and how smooth our cars ride, so....

I guess what it comes down to is don't diss it until you've tried it. Being in a family that hates most American made cars and tends to buy Jap made stuff, even they are impressed by how "advanced" it is still even today compared to their Toyotas and Hondas. The other day my mom was about to slam the trunk down, but i stopped her and said, "No, it closes itself, no need to slam it like that" . when she saw that the trunk closed itself, she didn't want to say anything because she thinks "crappy" American cars are inferior, so she just stormed off.

I guess it comes down to whatever floats your boat though....

Ralph
06-26-04, 05:13 PM
Your Mom should be impressed by the trunk closing feature. I like mine, and my Dad wishes his '03 DTS had that feature. It impresses most people IME.

I just thought of something else, but then realized it's not a good theory for depreciation. I was thinking that maybe because of all the computer management systems in newer Cadillacs, the computers becomes obsolete some years later, then you can't get parts, or a new computer, then no one wants the car. They won't be functional w/o the computer for engine management, etc? This is probably why cars of the 1970's will last longer because they are simple technology that goes back 100 years, and Model T's are still running today! This could be seen as a weak spot, (cars being too reliant on computers to run everything) but then I realized that probably ALL new cars have computers in them, even Toyota, Honda, etc. :rant2: So there goes my new theory. :rolleyes2

A smaller scale example of this is the simple and proven mechanical watch. Todays modern quartz watches have a microchip in them being fed by a battery, etc. When the quartz watch fails, or wears out, no one fixes them usually, they are just not worth it! They are thrown away, much like your old computer or cell phone. A mechanical watch simply needs a overhaul every 10 or 15 years or so, and it could be kept running forever. Case in point: The clock in the tower at St. Marks Square in Venice is still running and it's almost a thousand years old!