: If you're serious about fixing the rear differential problems



CVP33
02-03-06, 04:33 AM
If you're serious about fixing the rear differential problems on the CTS-V we need the following:

Data Base of all replaced differentials
Must include VIN minus the last 4 numbers for security
Your name and address
Mileage it was replaced at
Year of vehicle
Dealership that performed the repair

Four of our members participated in a mock conference call with GM to address this sometime ago. Our hope was that GM would truly listen, they did not. I call it a mock conference call because a real conference call is where participants ask questions that are actually answered. We have seen failures beginning in 2004 and now in 2006 we still have no solution. Owners have changed their driving habits, expectations of their car, decided not to add headers or exhaust or ultimately given up and unloaded their V's at a significant loss.

Getrag admits that the rear differential is not up to the task and told GM engineers this. GM knows there is a problem and our CTS-V owners have tried to coax GM into a proper solution. GM has declined. While many on here do not want to face the facts, GM has affected your resale value by walking away from a known defect in their design. Finger pointing at other forum members about their complaining is the symptom NOT THE PROBLEM. I suggest we all place the blame squarely where it belongs and that is with GM.

The word is out on the CTS-V and it's not good. We only have a small sampling of the total V owners here on our forum and the number and frequency of repairs are appalling. Again if you are serious about solving this problem once and for all it's time to act. Creating a database of repairs can be used collectively or by individuals as evidence that the problem is endemic to the CTS-V.

Again if you're serious and you want a real solution it's time we all do something about this.

pietroraimondi
02-03-06, 06:56 AM
A proper way to do this would be to set up a separate website and have it entered in all of the available search engines.

For Example:

www.CTSV-Defective-Differential.com

At this site; the "story" can be told and if entered into all of the search engines; the database can take shape and form in the form of a petition to take forth to a class action attorney.

A bit of advertising to promote the website in some of the trade mags as well as some well placed banner ads can have allot impact in collecting the data that is needed to move any legal action forward.

CTSV05
02-03-06, 08:51 AM
Well, I for one will be involved.

I was treated like $2 crack whore over the rearend in my V. So, I would def like to see some actual action taken on behalf of the owners of this otherwise great car.

All vehicles lose value........................but 10-over 20K in a year. I agree, that a reputation has preceeded the car.

TXSilverV
02-03-06, 10:18 AM
Count me in! Just tell me the were to put the info requested.

stkshkr
02-03-06, 10:32 AM
:yeah:

Florian
02-03-06, 10:35 AM
Im in....let me know where to post.


F

Parker
02-03-06, 10:56 AM
me too!

ahahnu
02-03-06, 10:57 AM
In... I don't want nor can I afford the 2-3 grand they want for replacing a diff. The aftermarket is like around 10. This has completely soured my American car buying, and almost my whole car buying experience.

lasstss
02-03-06, 11:18 AM
Im in....

Doc170
02-03-06, 11:24 AM
Doc170 Count Me In, I Replaced My Rear Differential On My 2005 Cts-v When I Had 1000 Miles On It

obzidian
02-03-06, 11:28 AM
im in....car is at the dealer for the first repair and i havent gotten any owrd yet, but if my information is needed please count me in....

LV_V
02-03-06, 11:42 AM
I'm in, getting ready for diff #4. Gotta love it... Been whining like a bitch for over 1,000 miles (the diff that is).

wildwhl
02-03-06, 11:49 AM
I'm in.

GT04CTS-V
02-03-06, 11:58 AM
IN :mad2:


I'm on diff number 3, the 2006 version.

GT

1badcady
02-03-06, 11:59 AM
I'm in.
:yeah:

Joey'sVee
02-03-06, 01:34 PM
You know I'm in but beware of the guys that will say your just being negative and you are decreasing the value by posting a thread like this.

Good Luck!!!

kjr39
02-03-06, 02:12 PM
me in.

BeastMaster
02-03-06, 02:19 PM
I'm in - on diff number 2

verbs
02-03-06, 03:05 PM
I'm in; busted mine after 3300 miles

heavymetals
02-03-06, 04:14 PM
I have a suggestion.

GM isn't going to like it, but we would be better served if "we" take our concern(s) to the DOT. Force a RECALL.

I don't think we will get anywhere without federal help and a couple of negative news items.

The only reason I bring up the "nuclear option" is that GM/Cadillac have been given plenty of time to correct the "potential problem", and they have (supposedly) in the 06 (so they were funky huh?)

I was very suprised that 04 and 05 model owners were not contacted to at least have their diff's inspected (although the information from this forum did get me under the car at 1 am with a flashlight, and diff was cracked)

That much money spent on a car should rate higher then "squeaky wheel" service from the company that made it, especially when THEY KNOW about it.

My diff "failed" and it was replaced under warranty.
6kmi later and 0 complaints.
However if I had my druthers I would rather have the 06 diff.
Am I sitting on a live gernade?
Well, according to the manufacturer of the diff, probably as it is in an application beyond its' ratings.

That being said, I would not expect a solution that is going to fix the problems that some owners are experiencing. That is being addressed by the aftermarket.

keeksv
02-03-06, 04:49 PM
6K for the first one here, working on the second. I'm in.

Florian
02-03-06, 04:50 PM
Force the recall.....that would be fine and dandy, but it doesnt address the problem. You mentioned the problem in the last line of your thoughts. The diff is the weak link. Is a class action to cover labor on the aftermarket solutions out of the question? Id prefer that over another shitty rear end that will eventually take a dump, likely at an inopportune time.
My .02


F

heavymetals
02-03-06, 04:53 PM
Force the recall.....that would be fine and dandy, but it doesnt address the problem. You mentioned the problem in the last line of your thoughts. The diff is the weak link. Is a class action to cover labor on the aftermarket solutions out of the question? Id prefer that over another shitty rear end that will eventually take a dump, likely at an inopportune time.
My .02


F

I posted this in another link.

Good luck trying to get GM/Cadillac to pay for an aftertmarket fix.

Mat347
02-03-06, 05:04 PM
I'm on my second rear and down to sign up, I cancelled my major mods due to the weak link.

Florian
02-03-06, 05:09 PM
I posted this in another link.

Good luck trying to get GM/Cadillac to pay for an aftertmarket fix.

Saw that, just restating the obvious...


F

crowan
02-03-06, 06:37 PM
Even though I have not experienced a problem with my diff, I did sign onto the original petition to GM regarding the request for the conference call. I may be mistaken, but at that time, the problem was more about diff whine because full failures had not yet become a front burner issue.

I have a serious question. At this point, what is the definition of "fixing the rear differential problem?" I ask that question because the success of any organized effort will depend, in large part, on what it is that you are asking GM to do. Defining "the solution" in a cogent, concise manner will be necessary but that may be more difficult than it seems because I sense that there is a broad range of expectations about what solution would be satisfactory. Is there a concensus on what the solution should be?

CR

Luna.
02-03-06, 06:42 PM
Don't go ballistic here, but...

I know of one person (Joey) who had issues with the '06 differential, but is that the only case? Might that specific differential just be a bad one?

I have had high hopes related to the '06 differential for a little while now & hoped that it would be at least a DECENT answer. Clearly, not the best or anything, but at least a livable one.

ctsvett
02-03-06, 06:47 PM
:yeah:

Vegas V
02-03-06, 07:11 PM
How bout I get in touch with my attorney and ask the question, depending on what he tells me, we can go from there, perhaps he can address GM in our part, (representing us) I'll give him a call this weekend and post the results from our conversation here on monday.

heavymetals
02-03-06, 07:15 PM
Not interested, but good luck.

Here are some useful links:
http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/problems/complain/

http://www.dot.gov/contact.html

Be prepared to provide data.

BowenCT
02-03-06, 07:28 PM
I'm in. First diff replaced at 5k.......2nd is howling like a dog at the moon w/ 7700......

ace996
02-03-06, 07:30 PM
Don't go ballistic here, but...

I know of one person (Joey) who had issues with the '06 differential, but is that the only case? Might that specific differential just be a bad one?

I have had high hopes related to the '06 differential for a little while now & hoped that it would be at least a DECENT answer. Clearly, not the best or anything, but at least a livable one.

My '06 whines and clunks real bad...

ace996
02-03-06, 07:34 PM
Not interested, but good luck.


:hmm:

heavymetals
02-03-06, 07:54 PM
I am not interested in signing up for any "class action suit".
I have nothing to sue over.
My diff failed (cracked and leaking), was replaced under warranty, and it didn't cost me a nickel.

What I would be up to is notifying the DOT/NTSB that a substandard part has been used. The manufacturer of both the car and the part are aware of same and have done nothing (recall/inspection) for the vehicles affected, except service (and in some cases with a lot of hassle) or replace with the same substandard part.
The part has been "upgraded" in 06 models.
I think there is a big window of opportunity here because the "upgraded" diff is now the standard replacement.

The NTSB can ask them to correct, order them to correct, or do nothing.
I say use taxpayer money if your gonna make a stink.

My $.02

Mat347
02-03-06, 09:03 PM
Defining "the solution" in a cogent, concise manner will be necessary but that may be more difficult than it seems because I sense that there is a broad range of expectations about what solution would be satisfactory. Is there a concensus on what the solution should be?
CR

Since Getrag, who supplies our rears, has supposedly told GM that the rears would not handle the LS6/LS2's power. I believe I would be satisfied with a rear where Getrag, not GM, says will handle the power and weight of the V. I believe the '06 rears are just rated marginally higher than the '04/'05. This step in the right direction is good, but apparently it was not a large enough stride since the '06s have been reported breaking/howling. I'm not asking for a rear that will handle 14psi + Nitrous...I just want one that is engineered for the vehicles we purchased.

EDIT: Just out of curiosity I checked out Getrag's site. They have the rearends they sell to GM listed. Corvette gets their type 625 which is rated to 550 Nm, our Vs get type 645 which is rated to 420 Nm. Converted to lbft this is 405.66 and 309.78 respectively. It looks like GM dug their own grave by using a VERY under rated rearend! I would be happy with what the Vette got, which is what we should have gotten to begin with!!!

LV_V
02-03-06, 09:23 PM
WTF is wrong with GM that they use this diff from Getrag that is substandard for the power/weight of the V??? Why would they do this in the first place; they must have known that this problem would arise by making such a mistake. Now that they see all these diffs failing, why do they simply change the part from Getrag to another substandard (though slightly upgraded) rear diff?? Makes no sense from a business stand point, let alone a car manufacturer's responsibility to customer safety. Its bull$hit, we all know it, they (GM) knows it, yet nothing is done about it.

I really hope someone gets the ball rolling on this. If I had the resources, I would no doubt do it. My thanks goes out to those investing their time and more into the resolution of this issue.

CVP33
02-03-06, 09:26 PM
I was hoping that someone would step up and provide the web space for the data base. Each of you will find a very aggressive GM sitting on the other end of a lemon law or buyback claim. It will help you immensely if you have a data base of all failures so that you can offer proof that you are not alone and that your vehicle is not the "one in 7,000" that GM has had a problem with. It would also help you to have the letter from Mr. Deal at GETRAG confirming the specs of the V's differential. Finally, sighting the improvements made to the '06 differential and transmission will again prove useful.

As of 6:30 pm I no longer have a dog in this fight, but will be happy to supply my VIN and repair history as evidence for someone else. Please don't bother to PM me as I will not share my story until ALL the smoke has cleared. If I were a current original owner of a 2004 or 2005 CTS-V I would be mad as hell and would not allow GM to hide behind an inferior piece of equipment. I for one am glad to be over it.

heavymetals
02-03-06, 09:42 PM
WTF is wrong with GM that they use this diff from Getrag that is substandard for the power/weight of the V??? Why would they do this in the first place; they must have known that this problem would arise by making such a mistake. Now that they see all these diffs failing, why do they simply change the part from Getrag to another substandard (though slightly upgraded) rear diff?? Makes no sense from a business stand point, let alone a car manufacturer's responsibility to customer safety. Its bull$hit, we all know it, they (GM) knows it, yet nothing is done about it.


I don't wish for it, but in this "squeaky wheel" corp world the only thing that gets immediate action is loss or potential loss of life.
I guess a rear end failure just doesn't pose that much potential risk for GM.
I hope they fired everybody who defended using the stock CTS rear, but sadly I bet a few got bonuses.

OT: Funny you should mention "lemon law".
It was a relative of mine (I am told) that helped with that law.
http://www.lemonlawca.com/songbeverly.html

Jurisimprudence
02-04-06, 01:02 PM
If you want to play "hardball," you don't need all of the data at this point. If you proceed legally, you can request that GM provide all of this data for you as part of your discovery request. Not only does that get you the information that you want, it also makes them do the leg work and allows you to publish this information if you'd like. I suspect that GM would be more concerned with the bad press than they would with the cost of replacing the rear end in a couple of thousand cars. In fact, if it were me, I'd also ask how much they've spent on all the advertising that they have been doing for the "V" series of cars. Hell, they'll probably have a commercial on the Super Bowl tomorrow. If so, the cost of the 30 second commercial would have probably paid for all the R&D, labor and parts to replace everyone of the rears in the '04s and '05s.

lasstss
02-04-06, 01:16 PM
I sent every pic of a broken case Get Rag that was submitted to the forum toGetrag..They know this Diff is under rated but they are under contract with GM. They also informed me that a better rear could have been supplied. I believe that GM thought they could get away with enemic peice with the traction control in charge. Wrong assumption!

Another funny one is Jon Veith...Jon Vieth [jv@ttcautomotive.com] at Tremec. Lots of front end replies. When I sent him copies of complaints, he clammed up..

heavymetals
02-04-06, 02:21 PM
I sent every pic of a broken case Get Rag that was submitted to the forum toGetrag..They know this Diff is under rated but they are under contract with GM. They also informed me that a better rear could have been supplied. I believe that GM thought they could get away with enemic peice with the traction control in charge. Wrong assumption!

Another funny one is Jon Veith...Jon Vieth [jv@ttcautomotive.com] at Tremec. Lots of front end replies. When I sent him copies of complaints, he clammed up..

If you want to persue the "nuclear option" I suggest you resend the info to the NTSB, and your congress person.

Furthermore, if you do go to http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/ you will find there are only three complaints, although multiple failures are reported.

A good start would be for everyone who had the diff replaced to enter in all the data there.

There already is a data base, government sponsored even.

If your real lazy here is a phone # 1-888-DASH-2-DOT
(1-888-327-4236)
I recommend that you enter the data on the site though.

lasstss
02-04-06, 03:14 PM
If you want to persue the "nuclear option" I suggest you resend the info to the NTSB, and your congress person.

Furthermore, if you do go to http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/ you will find there are only three complaints, although multiple failures are reported.

A good start would be for everyone who had the diff replaced to enter in all the data there.

There already is a data base, government sponsored even.

If your real lazy here is a phone # 1-888-DASH-2-DOT
(1-888-327-4236)
I recommend that you enter the data on the site though.

I did that very early on, mine had not failed yet but I did fill out the info.

heavymetals
02-04-06, 03:28 PM
I did that very early on, mine had not failed yet but I did fill out the info.

Well now we will see how serious it gets.

I expect the # of reports to at least multiply X 4!

Use your taxpayer dollar!

Florian
02-04-06, 07:53 PM
submitted....


F

wildwhl
02-04-06, 09:31 PM
Heavy -

I've tried multiple times to submit a complaint here. For whatever reason, I cannot whether it be from my Mac or IBM based laptops, at different IP locations :confused:

I'll blow my diff to pieces with N20 ultimately anyway - but I still feel the product is inferior, and that if we didn't have this problem, my V would be worth substantially more $$$ today than it is - because we would not all be complaining/afraid of the failure(s).

heavymetals
02-04-06, 09:58 PM
Heavy -

I've tried multiple times to submit a complaint here. For whatever reason, I cannot whether it be from my Mac or IBM based laptops, at different IP locations :confused:

I'll blow my diff to pieces with N20 ultimately anyway - but I still feel the product is inferior, and that if we didn't have this problem, my V would be worth substantially more $$$ today than it is - because we would not all be complaining/afraid of the failure(s).

Use the # provided and call it in on monday then.

I did not mean to hijack this thread.

The idea of a "data base" is great, but I think it means more when the Fed's are involved (the "nuclear option").

wildwhl
02-05-06, 12:04 AM
Sorry - didn't mean to threadjack either ;)

atsbob
05-22-08, 05:28 PM
I have a 07 CTS with the 2.8 and am on my fourth diff in a month; the 2nd one didn't last 5 miles and started to heat up real bad while the dealer was road testing the new diff. If I have these problems with a 2.8 I cannot even imagine what you people with the V are going through. The forth is still howling and has a slight vibration but the dealer said GM will not replace it. I am up in Canada and not sure what options I have here.
Bob

lilred
05-22-08, 06:40 PM
Just had the rear in my '06 replaced for excessive whine.

FYI:

Make: CADILLAC
Model: CTS
Year: 2005
NHTSA Action Number: EA07017
Summary:
THE MODEL YEAR (MY) 2004 THROUGH 2006 CADILLAC CTS-V ARE VERY HIGH PERFORMANCE VEHICLES THAT ARE EQUIPPED WITH MANUAL TRANSMISSIONS AND THE 400 HORSEPOWER LS6 5.7L V8 ENGINE THAT CAN PRODUCE 395 FT-LBS OF TORQUE. ODI AND GM HAVE RECEIVED COMPLAINTS FROM OWNERS ALLEGING INCIDENTS OF REAR DRIVETRAIN COMPONENT FAILURE (E.G., CRACKED REAR DIFFERENTIAL CARRIER HOUSING, FRACTURED REAR AXLE HALF-SHAFTS), RESULTING IN A LOSS OF MOTIVE POWER AND VEHICLE DISABLEMENT. GM MAINTAINS THAT THE REAR DRIVETRAIN COMPONENT FAILURES HAVE RESULTED FROM THE CUMULATIVE EFFECTS OF HIGH LOADS/STRESSES ON THE COMPONENTS THAT OCCUR DURING SEVERE SNAP CLUTCH EVENTS FROM A STOP THAT INDUCE POWER HOP. GM DEFINES SNAP CLUTCH ENGAGEMENT AS "WHEN THE FOOT IS SLIPPED OFF A FULLY DEPRESSED CLUTCH PEDAL AT HIGH ENGINE RPMS WITH THE VEHICLE AT REST." POWER HOP (ALSO REFERRED TO AS "WHEEL HOP," "REAR AXLE HOP," OR "REAR SUSPENSION BOUNCE") IS A RAPID VERTICAL OSCILLATION OF THE REAR SUSPENSION AS THE REAR TIRES LOSE AND REGAIN TRACTION DURING HARD ACCELERATIONS. GM INDICATED THAT SNAP CLUTCH EVENTS APPLY "SIGNIFICANT TORSIONAL IMPACT FORCES TO THE REAR DIFFERENTIAL," WHICH TRY TO SEPARATE THE GEARS WITHIN THE DIFFERENTIAL AND RESULTS IN TENSILE LOADING OF THE DIFFERENTIAL HOUSING. ACCORDING TO GM, IF THE VEHICLE EXPERIENCES POWER HOP DURING A SNAP CLUTCH EVENT, THE RESULTING FORCES CAN BE GREAT ENOUGH TO OVERLOAD AND CRACK THE REAR DIFFERENTIAL HOUSING OR FRACTURE THE OUTBOARD STEM OF ONE OF THE HALF SHAFTS. GM ALSO STATED THAT, IN GENERAL, IT TAKES MULTIPLE SNAP CLUTCH EVENTS WITH POWER HOP TO CAUSE SUCH FAILURES. GM IMPLEMENTED CHANGES DURING MY 2005 AND 2006 PRODUCTION TO IMPROVE THE ABILITY OF THE REAR DIFFERENTIAL HOUSING AND HALF SHAFTS TO WITHSTAND LOADS PRODUCED DURING SNAP CLUTCH EVENTS THAT INCLUDE POWER HOP. GM ALSO REVISED THE SUSPENSION MOUNTS AND POWERTRAIN CALIBRATION TO REDUCE THE POTENTIAL FOR POWER HOP TO OCCUR. IN JULY 2005, GM RELEASED A TECHNICAL SERVICE BULLETIN (#05-04-114-001A) TITLED, "DRIVETRAIN - WHEEL HOP ON FULL THROTTLE ACCELERATION," FOR MY 2004 AND 2005 CTS-V VEHICLES. THE BULLETIN DESCRIBES POWER HOP, WHICH IT ASSOCIATES WITH "VERY AGGRESSIVE DRIVING," AND RELEASES A SERVICE KIT TO PROVIDE "AN INCREMENTAL IMPROVEMENT IN REDUCING THE TENDENCY OF THE REAR SUSPENSION TO WHEEL HOP." THE KIT CONSISTS OF A REVISED SET OF FIRMER REAR SUB-FRAME BUSHINGS. ODI'S PRELIMINARY ANALYSES OF COMPLAINT AND WARRANTY CLAIM DATA INDICATE THAT GM'S DESIGN CHANGES DO NOT APPEAR TO HAVE BEEN COMPLETELY EFFECTIVE IN ELIMINATING EITHER POWER HOP OR REAR DRIVETRAIN COMPONENT FAILURES. IN ADDITION, MANY OF THE OWNERS INTERVIEWED BY ODI HAVE ALLEGED POWER HOP EVENTS AND REAR DRIVETRAIN COMPONENT FAILURES WHILE DRIVING (DURING GEAR SHIFTS) AND NOT NECESSARILY INDUCED BY A "SNAP CLUTCH" EVENT. ODI HAS UPGRADED THIS INVESTIGATION TO AN ENGINEERING ANALYSIS TO ASSESS THE DRIVING CONDITIONS THAT CAN PRODUCE POWER HOP, THE EFFECTS OF POWER HOP ON REAR DRIVETRAIN COMPONENT LOADS/STRESSES, AND THE FREQUENCY, TREND AND SAFETY CONSEQUENCES OF LOSS OF MOTIVE POWER INCIDENTS CAUSED BY REAR DRIVETRAIN COMPONENT FAILURES.