: Thanks Bob Lutz



silver12r
01-30-06, 08:40 PM
"It's hard to imagine what the upside catalyst is, what specifically is going to change things and lead GM to a turnaround," says Morningstar analyst John Novak. "The list of negatives is so long, and you look at the positives and there's just not enough there to have any confidence at all. ... It probably will get worse before it gets better, so it's possible that GM will be a buy again someday, but that day's a long way off."

I know how they can save some money and improve the outlook; fire Bob Lutz!!!!!!!!!

I~LUV~Caddys8792
01-30-06, 08:56 PM
I can see a heated discussion coming from this....

SoCadillac
01-30-06, 11:32 PM
I know how they can save some money and improve the outlook; fire Bob Lutz!!!!!!!!!
Entirely agree! :thumbsup:

Night Wolf
01-30-06, 11:42 PM
Yeah, Bob Lutz has done nothing and is responsible for really stupid new cars from GM:

http://www.wallpaper.net.au/wallpaper/automotive/Pontiac%20Solstice%202006%20-%201024x768.jpg

http://www.rsportscars.com/foto/07/saturnsky06_01.jpg

BTW in case you can't tell, these are both freakin SWEET cars.

illumina
01-30-06, 11:55 PM
Hasn't this subject been beaten to death already?

Anyways, I have to agree with somebody, so Rick, I agree with you! (I've seen a Solstice up close :bouncy: )

SoCadillac
01-30-06, 11:56 PM
Your right he's responsible for them, and he took on the Miata, which has been refined for how many decades now? And why on earth would you re-badge one to make the other...novelties at best. Lutz needs to go. Instead of a golden parachute why doesn't GM simply give him one Solstice and one Sky?

Night Wolf
01-31-06, 12:04 AM
First, its funny how when Lutz first came in, he was praised... now everyone says he sucks.

Isn't he the reason for the compelte turn-around of the Cadillac brand around 2002? Sorry if you don't remember, but Cadillac was going under really bad.....

I have sat in a Solstice... its a freakin sweet car, everything about it. I personally like the edgy Sky a bit more, but hell... give me a manual and a convertible and I'll take either one!

How in the world is the solstice a copy of the Miata!? Because its a small 2 seater roadster car? Oh damn... I guess the Fiero copied the Miata as well :bigroll:

In case you haven't been in the auto world lately... open your eyes! rebading goes on all the time... why do you think Toyota can charge $20k for a Camary and $40k for a Lexus.... which is the same exact car!?

Sorry if you coudln't tell, but the Solstice and Sky have a totally different exterior body as well as interior, the chassis and drivetrain is the same. Nobody is holding a gun to your head and making you buy one of them.

May as well just say every single SUV copied the Willys wagons from 1952.... its been refined so many times... old news now :bigroll:

Hell new Cadillacs aren't any different then Caddys in the 50's.... except they got a whole lot cheaper made, less steel and more plastic.... and don't mean what they used to....

These are all bogus claims. So is saying the Solstice/Sky is a copy of the age-old Miata... my gosh... if you like Honda and Toyota so much, go there and tell them how much GM/Lutz sucks... I'm sure they will be glad to hear it.

Night Wolf
01-31-06, 12:13 AM
BTW in case your blind and still think it is simply rebadged... compare:

Solstice:

http://www.autoextremist.com/detroit2004/companies/Pontiac/SolsticeInterior.jpg

Sky:

http://img36.exs.cx/img36/6410/s38hi.jpg

I persoanlly like the outside of the Saturn better but the interior of the Pontiac more.... overall it'd be a tough choice for me...

the back:

Solstice:

http://www.cartype.com/images/page/pontiac-solstice_rear.jpg

Sky:

http://www.coolstuffchannel.com/www.coolstuffchannel.com/MT/images/rear%20view.jpg

Yup, freakin sweet car no matter how you slice it :)

I~LUV~Caddys8792
01-31-06, 12:22 AM
Rick is a GM man through and through!! :)

Lutz did bring a lot interesting new cars to production, he certainly did make GM a lot less drab and monotonous!

And by the way Silver12r, what are some of the negatives on this looong list?

danbuc
01-31-06, 12:23 AM
I've seen this guy drivin' around in a white Solstice around here....every time I see it, I wanna ask him how he like it, but the light always turns green just before I can. I love the Solstice...but I like the Sky even more. They have so much potential, and look really fun to drive. Hopefully they come otu with the Turbocharged version pretty soon. I wouldn't mind one of them.

SpeedyArizona
01-31-06, 12:34 AM
If I had to chose, the Solstice would be my pick. The Sky's console looks a bit too cluttered for my taste, the Solstice has the somewhat exotic looks America sports car going for it. While neither could ever hold a match to the 'Vette, the Solstice is definetly good for a rush. If anyone could find me a NEW sports car for under $20,000, I'd like to see it!

Night Wolf
01-31-06, 12:35 AM
The one I sat in was owned by a women in her... I'd say late 40's. It was that sweet blue color... manual and a convertible! She was really cool too.

They are ~175hp/170ft-lbs torque. That Ecotec is a sweet 4banger, massive amounts of potential.

IIRC it is getting super charged, not turbo... I think 250hp or so? These cars are fast as it is though.... But they are a Roadster... so a balance of power and handling/driver feel is important too. Everyone I have talked to that owns one absolutly loves the thing.

If you want to feed a little more speed to your ride... check out these guys :)

http://www.mallettcars.com/solstice-conversion.htm

I swear, if I didn't want a truck so much, I'd be all over either of these in about 2 years... but heres how I see it.... add 4wd to the Solstice, lift it a bit and get some beefy tires on it... and you just made a Jeep Wrangler! (in the small, nimble go-kart, fun-to-drive feel) :) So I guess I'm not going TOO far off ;).

Night Wolf
01-31-06, 12:41 AM
Thats just it though, the Solstice is NOT designed to be anywhere near the Corvette... either you are getting a Solstice or a Corvette..... plus its a smart move by keeping the chassis Pontiac/Saturn and not with a Chevy version (because of their performance cars)

I too think I would pick the Solstice... the interior is what would do it for me... I have a thing for interiors, since that is where the majority of the time is spent, if I don't like the interior, I don't like the vehicle, and that Solstice interior just flows so nice... has a classic look to it too in a way, plus that Pontiac steering wheel.... I really like... our rental G6 had that... I dunno what it was, but I just really liked it.

I like the back of the Solstice more too... only thing on the Saturn I like is the nose and the sides... that air scoop/body lines on the fender and door! The front of the Sky has styling cues from the C6 'Vette and is very edgy, while the Solstice is more refined and laid back.... but I like the rounded nose too.... and the little side Pontiac arrowhead/body line is really cool!

I'll tell ya one thing though... that really kills the front end on the Solstice... is a front license plate... if your state reqires a plate on the front, that sucks... it just really breaks up the car.

SoCadillac
01-31-06, 12:46 AM
First, its funny how when Lutz first came in, he was praised... now everyone says he sucks.

Count me out as I never condoned his coming abroad; he was then and still is "unnecessary overhead."


Isn't he the reason for the compelte turn-around of the Cadillac brand around 2002? Sorry if you don't remember, but Cadillac was going under really bad.....

Art & Science turned it around, not Lutz. And Lutz was against the Art & Science teams' design, including the CTS (which was and is the saving grace for Cadillac).


I have sat in a Solstice... its a freakin sweet car, everything about it. I personally like the edgy Sky a bit more, but hell... give me a manual and a convertible and I'll take either one!

How in the world is the solstice a copy of the Miata!? Because its a small 2 seater roadster car? Oh damn... I guess the Fiero copied the Miata as well :bigroll:

Last time I looked around I didn't see a Fiero on the showroom floors...the same fate awaits the Solstice and Sky.


In case you haven't been in the auto world lately... open your eyes! rebading goes on all the time... why do you think Toyota can charge $20k for a Camary and $40k for a Lexus.... which is the same exact car!?

The Camry was well, well, well established before the Lexus used its basics. I guess the Solstice and Sky are fraternal twins at birth?


Sorry if you coudln't tell, but the Solstice and Sky have a totally different exterior body as well as interior, the chassis and drivetrain is the same. Nobody is holding a gun to your head and making you buy one of them.

Again, I guess the Solstice and Sky fraternal twins at birth? Gun-to-my-head-to-buy-one? They look like the novelty they are, why would I buy one. Now a Corvette...that's a different story and an automobile well worth purchasing.


May as well just say every single SUV copied the Willys wagons from 1952.... its been refined so many times... old news now :bigroll:

Again, last I visited the showrooms, nary a one 2006 Willy's was to be found.


Hell new Cadillacs aren't any different then Caddys in the 50's.... except they got a whole lot cheaper made, less steel and more plastic.... and don't mean what they used to....

These are all bogus claims. So is saying the Solstice/Sky is a copy of the age-old Miata... my gosh... if you like Honda and Toyota so much, go there and tell them how much GM/Lutz sucks... I'm sure they will be glad to hear it.

No, they are far from a copy as the Miata is in a different league, one the Solstice and Sky can only dream of attaining...if they live long enough. It is always the easy card to say "go buy an import, blah, blah, blah," rather than admit the GM has a long way to go, and I hope they do, to get back to where they once were. And it is always easy to slam the competition when they are winning, because they did their homework, through pulling the patriotic card. Sad.

Night Wolf
01-31-06, 12:56 AM
Oh well.

:) Does that make ya feel better?

Perhaps its time I go to the Toyota site and start complaining about how much Toyota sucks since my friend is having problems with his Tundra.....

Jesda
01-31-06, 01:00 AM
As a Miata fanatic, I must say that the Miata isnt that far off from the Kappa roadsters.

I~LUV~Caddys8792
01-31-06, 01:40 AM
Last time I looked around I didn't see a Fiero on the showroom floors...the same fate awaits the Solstice and Sky.

IIRC, the Fiero sold pretty well, and has a good group of enthusiasts backing it now, and it hasnt been sold since like 1987, so I never saw it in showrooms either...

Katshot
01-31-06, 08:56 AM
Yeah, Bob Lutz has done nothing and is responsible for really stupid new cars from GM:

http://www.wallpaper.net.au/wallpaper/automotive/Pontiac%20Solstice%202006%20-%201024x768.jpg

http://www.rsportscars.com/foto/07/saturnsky06_01.jpg

BTW in case you can't tell, these are both freakin SWEET cars.

I like the Sky WAY more.

Katshot
01-31-06, 09:09 AM
I seem to recall that the "original" concepts of the "Art & Science" cars were "softened" by Lutz. I'm certainly not going to say that I can enter into a debate about this but I feel that Bob Lutz has been a breath of fresh air as compared to the other non-car-guys that have had the reighns at GM for years. At the very least he has some passion for the products he sells which is something taht has been sorely lacking at GM for a long time. What we need is MORE guys like him there to help spread the excitement across the whole company.
I remember talking to some guys I knew at GM just after Lutz came aboard and they ALL suggested that there was a new energy that seemed to accompany him. You want to poo-poo the guy but to be honest, as entrenched as many are in that company, I doubt there's any one man that can turn that ship unilaterally. IMO, there's better product in GM showrooms now than there was before he came aboard and that's what's important to me.

Randy_W
01-31-06, 09:11 AM
The Solstice is much more retro, it has a lot of the qualities of another car I always enjoyed driving, the Austin Healy 3000 Sprint. The Skyy is great looking and very cutting edge but might use a bit more Vette in ther flanks than I would have.

FSU_Noles
01-31-06, 09:21 AM
:horse:

gothicaleigh
01-31-06, 09:33 AM
I think GM is better off then it would have been without him. The company isn't in good shape by any means, but there is no denying that GM's product has been improving since he came aboard. The mid-nineties to early eighties (and quite possibly before that) were horrible for american car design and material quality. The recent designs are starting to turn things around. The only problem may be that it is too late for GM to profit from it as the stench from previous generations will be hard to forget for most new car buyers and the death-grip unions have on their factories gaurantee very small returns for the company.

It's not just the designs that GM needs to clean up. And while Lutz is famous for his design, I'm not sure he is the man to fix their other problem.

HotRodSaint
01-31-06, 11:15 AM
Art & Science turned it around, not Lutz. And Lutz was against the Art & Science teams' design, including the CTS (which was and is the saving grace for Cadillac).

Lutz IS responsible for watering down the 'art and science' design of the STS. I think that was a mistake. The STS is a boring design compared to the CTS. The DTS is even more boring.

But Lutz is the one pushing for RWD platforms inside GM and I think that is the right move.

So I'd give Lutz mixed reviews on performance. But I lay very little blame at his feet for for GM's current problems.

Now Wagoner is a different story, and I'd call for his removal!! :duck:

Randy_W
01-31-06, 11:36 AM
Lutz wasn't given the free hand he had at Chrysler, that hampered his performance. GM should have let him run with a couple of models and watched the results, but they couldn't stand to lose the control factor!

silver12r
01-31-06, 03:40 PM
Lutz wasn't given the free hand he had at Chrysler, that hampered his performance. GM should have let him run with a couple of models and watched the results, but they couldn't stand to lose the control factor!

Chrysler started doing well right after they got rid of Lutz.

I~LUV~Caddys8792
01-31-06, 04:13 PM
You're using vague terms...what does "well" mean? Better sales? more reliable cars? Better looking cars? Etc Etc...

Night Wolf
01-31-06, 04:38 PM
Sorry, buy Chrysler started doing "well" after the Daimler/MB merge. Don't believe me? The merge was in 1998... since then the company has nearly turned around... I never liked Chrysler cars in the 90's... now they make some of the most appeal vehicles IMO.

Weather the merge had all to do with it or not, its a major factor.

Lutz actually listens to the masses. I remember at the NY Auto show a couple years back when the Solstice was on display. The car was on the display table and there was a drop box with paper and pen, and a sign that said "What do YOU want to see on this car for production" He wanted a sweet car right at $20,000.... the magical price in the auto world. He didn't want to cheapen out on the interior, drivetrain, outside or any of that, but a solid, great car for an unbeatable price. He asked people what they wanted to see, and then he responded.

Jesda
01-31-06, 06:29 PM
Chrysler's LX platform was already nearing completion before the merger. After the merger, all they did was raid the DaimlerBenz parts bin for suspension and steering components to reduce costs. DB didnt do any "magic" to save the company. The merger actually made things worse in the short term.

The one Chrysler project initiated by the DB side of the company, the ME-412, was ditched.

I~LUV~Caddys8792
01-31-06, 07:05 PM
Bob Lutz is the 6th most important man in the automotive industry according to the February 2006 Issue of Motor Trend. Now thats gotta say something!

ShadowLvr400
02-01-06, 03:28 AM
Well, guess I'll put my diseased 2 cents in. Lutz is only one of GM's many problems. First off, killing the Camaro was one of the dumbest moves ever. Nothing like totally surrendering a market to the competition just because you're behind. Reworking the Camaro would have been a lot smarter than giving it the axe. Ford tried the same years ago with the Mustang, but they actually listened to the hate mail, and created the Probe instead of a fwd 4cyl Mustang. GM ignored all the outcry, and killed off an American icon.
Second, too much reptition in the lines. Monte Carlo equaled Riviera, Cutlass equaled Malibu, GMC is the same trucks as Chevy. Instead of having each brand be unique, they were often versions of the other brands. Parts sharing is nice, but when some badges are the only difference between cars, you're going to create an overly bland look for all your cars.
Third, the death of Oldsmobile, that's another name that shouldn't have died. Admittedly, it might have needed to be done, but still very sad to see.
Fourth, the other carmakers are a part of GM's problem. GM's been creating some decent cars for several years, however, decent doesn't cut it anymore. If you look at most of GMs line, there's another co with a similar class car, that's a little quicker, a little more comfy, better on gas, lower priced, etc. There are a few exceptions, such as the Vette. But the Vette is not a bread and butter vehicle. The midsized sedan is one of the most important markets, and GM's products haven't been as good.
Fifth, alternative fuels. GM is behind here, bigtime. Ford and DCB are also behind here, but they're also not in the dire straits GM is. Americans are wanting better fuel economy, we fight tooth and nail an raise in gas prices, but it will come, likely ithin the next few years. The Japanese have been pioneering numerous techs, and actually producing them. Hydrogen and natural gas vehicles, hyprids out the wazoo, stronger, smaller motors, etc. Not only are they making these cars, but they're making them desireable. Honda's Hyprid Accord is actually their fastest and most powerful version of it. And while the hybrid version is about 3k more, in many states, you get a tax break just as big for buying a hbrid or alternative fuel car. Dodge is also a bit behind on this, bt in less trouble with their Benz compatriots and the very strong deisels. A lot of people still think of deisels as noisy, and rough, but listen to a benz deisel from the outside, and the inside, and you'll actually be hard pressed to consider it much louder than its gas counterpart.
Sixth, the unions. GM needs to figure out a way to get rid of them. The kinds of labor costs GM is dealing with makes profits almost impossible. From a business standpoint, their labor %'s mean it'd take a miracle for them to live.


Things GM could do to help themselves. Bring over some of the cool cars that currrently aren't US market. Holden's entire line could do well stateside. Don't rebadge it as a Pontiac or anything, just bring Holden to the states.
The unions I mentioned.
More desirable bread and butter cars. Everyday vehicles don't have to be mundane. And a 3.9 V6 should be able to make more than 240 horses. The competitiong makes more than that from 3.0L motors.
Stronger, more efficient engines. To find 300 horses in GM's engine lines, you need 5.3L V8's. Nissan has a 3.5L V6 (naturally aspirated) with 300 horses. True, there's a 60lb/ft torque difference, but the average person thinks more in terms of horses.

Bleh, I'm tired. Time for some more sleep I think.

davesdeville
02-01-06, 05:31 AM
Fifth, alternative fuels. ...

Everyday vehicles don't have to be mundane. And a 3.9 V6 should be able to make more than 240 horses. The competitiong makes more than that from 3.0L motors.
Stronger, more efficient engines. To find 300 horses in GM's engine lines, you need 5.3L V8's. Nissan has a 3.5L V6 (naturally aspirated) with 300 horses. True, there's a 60lb/ft torque difference, but the average person thinks more in terms of horses.

As for your fifth point, I believe GM is doing fairly well with alternative fuels. IE Hydrogen - they're betting the farm on it, pouring billions into research. Just because they're not bringing hydrogen vehicles to market now doesn't mean they aren't in the lead as far as research is concerned. They have pretty much skipped hybrids, but IMO hybrids are just a stop gap measure until the entire auto industry switches to hydrogen.

Your final points are valid. The public does believe 240hp from a 3.9 isn't enough, that Nissan's 3.5 must simply be better engineered than GM's 5.3, because it has a better power:displacement ratio. The public believes in the power:displacement myth. GM should either educate the public that HP/liter doesn't win races, doesn't pull boats up a ramp, etc; or they should make available motors that take full advantage of this myth: a 4cyl that makes 300hp at 12000rpm.

ShadowLvr400
02-01-06, 09:56 AM
Dave, I have to think that GM's not in the best shape when it comes to Hydrogen engines. Mazda already has a motor that will run on it now, with nearly no conversion. The rotary motor is actually rather content to run hydrogen, and makes almost as much power on that vs gasoline.

As for the entire auto industry making a jump to hydrogen, I wouldn't bet on it. At the very least, bio deisel would be one of the alternatives, and as more people get to understand it, it's becoming more common. My school now feeds a biodeisel vehicle. We collect all our fryer oil in a bin out back, and some locals come take that home and brew some fuel.

davesdeville
02-02-06, 09:11 AM
I wasn't talking internal combustion of hydrogen.

As for a jump to hydrogen, it's not a question of if, it's when. It might take quite awhile, actually. Especially since Bush is now pushing ethanol.