: 2006 Z06 500hp/500trq camshaft in a LS6 "V"...



austin
01-27-06, 10:05 PM
Has anyone tried this one yet...... If the ZO6 cam won't fit directly in a LS6 "V", atleast a copy of the cam's profile could be ground out to fit a LS6..... I would love to see a dyno of this cam profile swap.... w/no other mods, no headers/exhaust etc...... just a tune. I'm sure GM put a lot of thought into the 2006 Z06 camshaft. I wonder what it would do for the "V's" performance (HP/TRQ numbers).

Staxxin
01-27-06, 10:08 PM
Good thoughts but how much power can one gain from just a Cam alone?

austin
01-27-06, 10:21 PM
>Good thoughts but how much power can one gain from just a Cam alone?

That is exactly what i would like to know. :)

CVP33
01-27-06, 10:47 PM
You'd still be missing 1.3 liters of displacement. I'd bet there are better cams out there for our application. Frankly I'd be looking to make more power off idle. It's not like the rear diff. can take much more torque down low. A cam that starts building power from say 3,000 to 6,500 would be ideal.

thebigjimsho
01-27-06, 11:31 PM
Give me power to 7,000 rpm, please.

austin
01-28-06, 09:05 AM
Just thinking..... As an alternative...... And far less engine teardown, what about adding high ratio 1.85:1 rocker arms "and" a computer tune to a stock "V", would that possibly be worth 20-28HP (again, with the computer tune included). I was looking at these below, does anyone have them installed?

http://www.madvet.com/shop?frame=1.141.4121

http://www.ls1gto.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14732

Staxxin
01-28-06, 12:47 PM
More good thoughts but the question still goes unanswered.... Can someone comment generally on how much power can be gained with just a Cam alone?

If heads and a Cam is a better option then what’s a realistic gain. For example with an aggressive package, can one obtain 500rwhp?

CVP33
01-28-06, 01:16 PM
Just thinking..... As an alternative...... And far less engine teardown, what about adding high ratio 1.85:1 rocker arms "and" a computer tune to a stock "V", would that possibly be worth 20-28HP (again, with the computer tune included). I was looking at these below, does anyone have them installed?

http://www.madvet.com/shop?frame=1.141.4121

http://www.ls1gto.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14732

I asked this about 5 months ago and really never got a good answer. This used to be a good way to add lift without changing the cam. There's another thread on here where the boys from Ft. Wayne added 1.85 ration rockers to a cammed V.

L.Sanchez
01-28-06, 01:44 PM
More good thoughts but the question still goes unanswered.... Can someone comment generally on how much power can be gained with just a Cam alone?

If heads and a Cam is a better option then what’s a realistic gain. For example with an aggressive package, can one obtain 500rwhp?

Thats not a simple question...thats why you never got a simple answer. :)

Its how rowdy do you want your car? A minor cam might give you 10-15 rwhp...not worth it. A huge cam alone could gain you 40-50rwhp with a tune. That might be worth it. But, when you get a big cam like that, you also have a car that idles like a 68 BBC with a roller rocker arrangement...not ideal for a luxury Cadillac..unless you're like me. :sneaky: Also have smog issues, vibrations issues, etc. So, thats where you have to ask yourself, how big of a cam do you want...for what applications...drag racing, road racing, autocrossing, daily driver, etc.

Also, putting the LS7 Cam does not mean it will make more power, or even increase your power. That cam is tuned for a bigger displacement engine with different head flow and breathing characteristic. There are several cams to choose from in the LS6/LS1 group that are designed for these engines.

Roller rockers are a great addition if you decide that you want some more power across the board but without having to change the heads and cam. Its a great modification. But, if you decide later to get heads and cam, its not really a good idea to get them since they'll have to be changed anyway usually for most H/C combos.

Ladis

heavymetals
01-28-06, 02:12 PM
The larger ratio rockers require modification of the valve covers (they hit).

Then, you probably want to replace the springs, retainers and keepers.

The springs especially (they have been known to break :eek: ).

If your going to change the cam, you might want to look at a double row timing chain and sprocket conversion.
If your gonna tear the motor apart that far, do it right.(IMHO).

ewill3rd
01-28-06, 03:05 PM
Changing a cam grind can radically change performance/economy.
It needs to be carefully matched to the operating characteristics of the engine.

Too much lift with the wrong piston means holy pistons, the same with larger rocker ratios. You have to make sure the parts match eachother, then your calibrations would have to be changed to match the cam grind and engine components.
Would that it were as easy as slapping components together like that but you have to take a lot of stuff into account.
As someone mentioned, valve spring height is critical also.

The hole bored in the engine block should be the same size for pretty much any Gen IV small block on which the LS1, 2, 6 and 7 are all based.

Luna.
01-28-06, 03:10 PM
Changing a cam grind can radically change performance/economy.
It needs to be carefully matched to the operating characteristics of the engine.

Too much lift with the wrong piston means holy pistons, the same with larger rocker ratios. You have to make sure the parts match eachother, then your calibrations would have to be changed to match the cam grind and engine components.
Would that it were as easy as slapping components together like that but you have to take a lot of stuff into account.
As someone mentioned, valve spring height is critical also.

The hole bored in the engine block should be the same size for pretty much any Gen IV small block on which the LS1, 2, 6 and 7 are all based.


100%, right on the money...

urbanski
01-28-06, 04:21 PM
The larger ratio rockers require modification of the valve covers (they hit).

Then, you probably want to replace the springs, retainers and keepers.

The springs especially (they have been known to break :eek: ).

If your going to change the cam, you might want to look at a double row timing chain and sprocket conversion.
If your gonna tear the motor apart that far, do it right.(IMHO).
what's funny is a friend is trying to convince me to change my cam...

scary part is i have no idea what you're talking about!!! imagine me hacking my engine apart :bonkers:

Closer_2001
01-28-06, 07:43 PM
Has anyone tried this one yet...... If the ZO6 cam won't fit directly in a LS6 "V", atleast a copy of the cam's profile could be ground out to fit a LS6..... I would love to see a dyno of this cam profile swap.... w/no other mods, no headers/exhaust etc...... just a tune. I'm sure GM put a lot of thought into the 2006 Z06 camshaft. I wonder what it would do for the "V's" performance (HP/TRQ numbers).

The cam fits but reports show the LS6 loses power...

Check the LS1 technical forum...

austin
01-28-06, 09:18 PM
>The cam fits but reports show the LS6 loses power...

Ok, Thanks..

ewill3rd
01-28-06, 09:29 PM
Changing the cam on any of the Gen III or Gen IV engines is no small undertaking.
For starters the cylinder heads have to come off. The lifters are in "cassettes" that house 4 lifters a piece. The ony way to remove them to slide the cam out is to take the heads off.
This leaves you with enough stuff off to do some serious playing around but your car would be down for a long old time trying to match up parts unless someone put together some kind of cam package for you.

I am sure a "simple" swap of the cams from the LS7 to the LS6 would actually really screw things up if nothing else was done.
The LS7 is a lot more than a camshaft mod to break that 500 hp barrier.

heavymetals
01-28-06, 10:19 PM
Here is a link to some goodies.

http://www.lmperformance.com/5985/1.html

Devil_concours
01-28-06, 11:04 PM
i think i saw a video clip of c6 z06 with hpe stage 3 cam and kooks header dyno 554rwhp and 501rwtq with stock tune.
With that in mind, either ls7 camshaft isn't the best or the ls7 motor is severely underrated

10secvette
01-29-06, 12:51 AM
Changing the cam on any of the Gen III or Gen IV engines is no small undertaking.
For starters the cylinder heads have to come off. The lifters are in "cassettes" that house 4 lifters a piece. The ony way to remove them to slide the cam out is to take the heads off.
This leaves you with enough stuff off to do some serious playing around but your car would be down for a long old time trying to match up parts unless someone put together some kind of cam package for you.

I am sure a "simple" swap of the cams from the LS7 to the LS6 would actually really screw things up if nothing else was done.
The LS7 is a lot more than a camshaft mod to break that 500 hp barrier.

No way in hell do you have to take the heads off to do a cam in an LSx engine. I've done it, numerous times. Yes, the lifters are in "cradles", 4 per cradle. They are designed for you to spin the cam, and the cradle holds the lifters, and you can pull the cam out for your swap. If you want, you can slide in a dowel rod in each channel to physically block the lifters and hold them in their cradles.

As far as cams go, to make power with the stock heads, you need to up the cam size considerably. As stated before, there goes driveability, some fuel economy, and emision issues for those that need to smog. Here are some examples of cams in a 346 with stock LS6 heads.These combo's used CAI, LT heads, high flow cats etc. 224/224 .569 comp = 393 rwhp 228/230 .590 comp = 410 rwhp.... same 228/230 cam with heads flowing an honest 308cfm (at least 30 cfm more than stock LS6 heads) and a Fast 90 = 443 rwhp, with the LS6 intake = 433 rwhp.

With 1.8 rockers and a stock cam with stock valves and pistons, you have plenty of room concerning P/V clearance. Is it worth the money?????? The only high quality true 1.8 rocker is the Crane, and they are over $700. Is it worth it, well Crane says so, but then again, they make them. For $700, I would buy a small 224/114 cam and springs and install it myself. It's easy as pie compared to working on a C5. I have a buddy making 550 rwhp NA with stock rockers, 725 rwhp on the bottle.

Devil_concours
01-29-06, 12:54 AM
No way in hell do you have to take the heads off to do a cam in an LSx engine. I've done it, numerous times. Yes, the lifters are in "cradles", 4 per cradle. They are designed for you to spin the cam, and the cradle holds the lifters, and you can pull the cam out for your swap. If you want, you can slide in a dowel rod in each channel to physically block the lifters and hold them in their cradles.

As far as cams go, to make power with the stock heads, you need to up the cam size considerably. As stated before, there goes driveability, some fuel economy, and emision issues for those that need to smog. Here are some examples of cams in a 346 with stock LS6 heads.These combo's used CAI, LT heads, high flow cats etc. 224/224 .569 comp = 393 rwhp 228/230 .590 comp = 410 rwhp.... same 228/230 cam with heads flowing an honest 308cfm (at least 30 cfm more than stock LS6 heads) and a Fast 90 = 443 rwhp, with the LS6 intake = 433 rwhp.

With 1.8 rockers and a stock cam with stock valves and pistons, you have plenty of room concerning P/V clearance. Is it worth the money?????? The only high quality true 1.8 rocker is the Crane, and they are over $700. Is it worth it, well Crane says so, but then again, they make them. For $700, I would buy a small 224/114 cam and springs and install it myself. It's easy as pie compared to working on a C5. I have a buddy making 550 rwhp NA with stock rockers, 725 rwhp on the bottle.
maybe he was talking about ls7 engine. He is a gm technician after all

10secvette
01-29-06, 12:58 AM
i think i saw a video clip of c6 z06 with hpe stage 3 cam and kooks header dyno 554rwhp and 501rwtq with stock tune.
With that in mind, either ls7 camshaft isn't the best or the ls7 motor is severely underrated

You need to put things in perspective. The stock LS7 Z06 will dyno 440 rwhp. Not bad for a factory motor with a warranty THAT HAS to pass emission's AND IDLE FOR "JOE BLOW PUBLIC CONSUMER" and any other goverment B.S. car manufactuer's have to abide by. It's a great cam for it's intended purpose. The secret to the new LS7 is the cylinder head. That S.O.B. flows 360 cfm bone stock.

It's not underated, it just has a shit load of potential waiting to be tapped into.

Closer_2001
01-29-06, 01:08 AM
You need to put things in perspective. The stock LS7 Z06 will dyno 440 rwhp. Not bad for a factory motor with a warranty THAT HAS to pass emission's AND IDLE FOR "JOE BLOW PUBLIC CONSUMER" and any other goverment B.S. car manufactuer's have to abide by. It's a great cam for it's intended purpose. The secret to the new LS7 is the cylinder head. That S.O.B. flows 360 cfm bone stock.

It's not underated, it just has a shit load of potential waiting to be tapped into.

The LS7 cam only works with the 360 cfm LS7 Heads

10secvette
01-29-06, 01:12 AM
The LS7 cam only works with the 360 cfm LS7 Heads

Is that a question or statement? Either way, the answer is no.

10secvette
01-29-06, 01:20 AM
Changing the cam on any of the Gen III or Gen IV engines is no small undertaking.
For starters the cylinder heads have to come off. The lifters are in "cassettes" that house 4 lifters a piece. The ony way to remove them to slide the cam out is to take the heads off.
This leaves you with enough stuff off to do some serious playing around but your car would be down for a long old time trying to match up parts unless someone put together some kind of cam package for you.

I am sure a "simple" swap of the cams from the LS7 to the LS6 would actually really screw things up if nothing else was done.
The LS7 is a lot more than a camshaft mod to break that 500 hp barrier.[/I] http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/images/misc/quotes/quot-bot-left.gifhttp://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/images/misc/quotes/quot-bot-right.gif
maybe he was talking about ls7 engine. He is a gm technician after all

I think his first sentence clearly states what he's talking about. Throwing out the fact that he is a g.m. tech makes his statement that much worse. But hey, if you want to take the heads off to change the cam.... knock yourself out. I hope you enjoy adding numerous hours of work due to ignorance. Don't forget to buy new head gaskets and head bolts to add to your "parts list". HAVE FUN!!!!

http://http://img82.imageshack.us/img82/2092/vv11oj.jpg (http://imageshack.us)http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/images/misc/quotes/quot-top-left.gifQuote:http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/images/misc/quotes/quot-top-right.gifhttp://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/images/misc/quotes/quot-by-left.gifhttp://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/images/misc/quotes/quot-by-right.gifhttp://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/images/misc/quotes/quot-top-right-10.gif[I]

austin
01-29-06, 08:16 AM
>The LS7 cam only works with the 360 cfm LS7 Heads.

You can buy ported hi-flow LS6 heads.... How about then?

c5racr1
01-29-06, 09:24 AM
Big Mistake you do not have to remove the heads in order to change the cam in a gen iii, gen iv motor. the lifter retainers are designed to hold the lifters up when there is no pressure on them. I have personally changed about 10 cams in these motors. If you pull the heads off you added hours and money to a cam change. if you want to see what I am talking about go to the other forum and do a search on cam change. takes about 6-7 hours in a vette, and about 3-4 hours in a f-body. not sure about the v yet but just looking at the set up simular to the vette so plan on 8 if you know what you are doing.

The ls7 cam will work in the ls6 and probably add some power, Thunder racing sells a cam with a very simular grind they call it the cheatr cam with stock manifolds they gain like 40 tq and 30 hp at the wheels. check their website.

Closer_2001
01-29-06, 01:46 PM
Is that a question or statement? Either way, the answer is no.

Statement

The wide split of the LS7 cam is designed to make use of the super efficient heads.

The LS7 cam is a toad in the LS6

Closer_2001
01-29-06, 01:50 PM
The ls7 cam will work in the ls6 and probably add some power,

Nope...search the LS1 forums. Results are terrible



Thunder racing sells a cam with a very simular grind they call it the cheatr cam with stock manifolds they gain like 40 tq and 30 hp at the wheels. check their website.

Much better idea IMHO

verbs
01-29-06, 01:53 PM
Has anyone tried this one yet...... If the ZO6 cam won't fit directly in a LS6 "V", atleast a copy of the cam's profile could be ground out to fit a LS6..... I would love to see a dyno of this cam profile swap.... w/no other mods, no headers/exhaust etc...... just a tune. I'm sure GM put a lot of thought into the 2006 Z06 camshaft. I wonder what it would do for the "V's" performance (HP/TRQ numbers).

This would be a waste. The C6ZO6 cam, like most cams are designed to work specifically with the heads that come on the car. The C6ZO6 heads flow amazingly, while the exhaust side is mediocre, which is why the exhaust side of the same has so much more duration than the intake. The other thing is that a big 7.0L motor makes a bigger cam feel small. That cam in our car would make the idle a lot rougher and driveability harder, and probably wouldn't pass emissions either.

Closer_2001
01-29-06, 01:54 PM
OK - Got tired of debating here. :-)

This is taken from a website about 2 Door Pontiacs that come from Australia...

Guys I pretty much got tired of driving around in a bone stock car so I decided to install a LS7 camshaft in the goat. (211/230 .558/.558 120) After about 4 hours of wasted work we put the car on the dyno to watch her make 0 extra horsepower & lose a average of about 10hp/10lbft. Talk about making your sick feeling

Sunday morning I decided to install a Torquer 2 232/234 .595/.598 115+2 camshaft to replace the LS7 camshaft. The Torquer 2 camshaft typically gains about 50rwhp I'll post results & sound clips later this afternoon! Hopefully the car will still make good power even though the car is still running the stock manifolds & cats.

verbs
01-29-06, 02:07 PM
The ls7 cam will work in the ls6 and probably add some power http://forums.offtopic.com/images/smilies/orly.gif


Thunder racing sells a cam with a very simular grind they call it the cheatr cam with stock manifolds they gain like 40 tq and 30 hp at the wheels. check their website.I think it's called the cheater cam because all their cam designs are stolen from others :shhh:

In all seriousness, off the shelf cams are great for stock cars, or maybe bolt on cars, but the best results come from custom designed cams for your specific application. It's really easy to work with a custom cam designer to get the grind that is perfect for you. AZ Power and Sound can get you a custom ground cam as they partner with one of the best custom cam designers on the market. I paid $450 for a custom cam shipped to my door from the cam designer to match my ported LS6 heads in my 2001 Z28. Needless to say that cam/heads combo made 490rwhp/423rwtq, all motor, pump gas on 91 octane. Stock displacement.

Point is, you can get a cam that will make a lot more power and idle better for not any extra money over an off the shelf cam like the "cheater"

verbs
01-29-06, 02:22 PM
OK - Got tired of debating here. :-)

This is taken from a website about 2 Door Pontiacs that come from Australia...

Guys I pretty much got tired of driving around in a bone stock car so I decided to install a LS7 camshaft in the goat. (211/230 .558/.558 120) After about 4 hours of wasted work we put the car on the dyno to watch her make 0 extra horsepower & lose a average of about 10hp/10lbft. Talk about making your sick feeling

Kinda apples to oranges somewhat since neither of the goats engines are the LS6 ;)....but I agree results would be similar in an LS6

c5racr1
01-29-06, 02:43 PM
the GTO that the cam was instal;led in had a ls1 not a ls6. so it is not good comparison. if that was the case installing a ls6 cam into a ls1 would provide 0 gain, but it does. and it is a very popular change. all I am saying is until a
ls7 cam is installed in a ls6 it is an unknown.

As far as off theshelf cams go. unless the installer is a veteran engine builder, and tuner off the shelf cams provide a level of safety, as far as guessing what the power will be that having a custom cam made can't.

for the vast majority of people on this board go a "off the shelf " is the best option.

verbs
01-29-06, 03:15 PM
the GTO that the cam was instal;led in had a ls1 not a ls6. so it is not good comparison. if that was the case installing a ls6 cam into a ls1 would provide 0 gain, but it does. and it is a very popular change. Actually even though it's not the best comparison, IMO it is a fairly valid one. The LS6 heads have similar I/E flow characteristics and the results would probably be very similar. The profile of the C6ZO6 cam is so not ideal for the flow characterists of our heads it's rediculous.




All I am saying is until a
ls7 cam is installed in a ls6 it is an unknown. Common sense will tell you if it sucks in an LS1 motor, it's going to suck in an LS6 motor. The difference in heads between the LS1 and LS6 is minimal compared to the LS7 heads. Also, the lift and duration figures were meant for a 7L motor, not a 5.7L motor.


As far as off theshelf cams go. unless the installer is a veteran engine builder, and tuner off the shelf cams provide a level of safety, as far as guessing what the power will be that having a custom cam made can't.Kinda having a tough time following this line of thought here....:confused:

I can tell you that going with an experienced custom cam builder is just as safe as getting an off the shelf cam. I personally feel even safer knowing that the cam was specifically designed for my car and its mods....


for the vast majority of people on this board go a "off the shelf " is the best option.More people go off the shelf because people either don't know about the benefits of going with a custom cam, or feel a level of safety copying what other people do. Off the shelf is not simply the best option, it's just the more popular option. Besides, people don't realize it's a lot quicker to custom design a cam than to do research to see how all the various off the shelf cam packages perform with their combo, and if they did, I bet you'd see more people getting them custom done.

ewill3rd
01-29-06, 03:20 PM
Just to clarify, I used bad terminology.
What I mean to say was "as far as I know the heads have to come off".
I have mentioned this before, but I haven't actually had to replace a cam on one of these engines and I suspect that someone can devise a way to lift the lifters out of the way so the cam can slide out the front of the engine. I don't doubt that it's possible, I just can't offer any first hand information to support that possibility. Obviously someone does.

That being said, usually swapping a cam without doing something to the cylinder heads isn't the best way to gain power, although it is possible.
If you are going to change lift you'll likely need to do something with the valve springs, which CAN be done in the car but would be easier on a bench.

I won't get into a debate on how to do these mods though because I don't really do mods like that. I work at a dealership, not a speed shop. Although we do some bolt on modifications I seriously doubt I'll be dropping any of this type of part in one of your cars. They seem to be pretty reliable anyway.

Didn't want to get drawn into an argument, just wanted to clarify what I said before. Sorry for any confusion this caused.

Parker
01-30-06, 11:41 PM
Does anyone know what they are talking about?

c5racr1
01-31-06, 11:28 AM
well I guess right is right and wrong is wrong, I the guy put the ls7 can in a ls1 and it lost power, it lost power. I agree with you to a point about custom cams vs. off the shelf grinds, but I still think the off the shelf will make most people quite happy.