: Toyota cars will race in NASCAR



HotRodSaint
01-24-06, 11:02 AM
Toyota Motor Corp. cars will begin racing in NASCAR's Nextel Cup next year, the first foreign competitor since the 1950s in the most popular U.S. auto racing series. (http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060124/AUTO01/601240367/1121/AUTO)

Toyota's Nextel Cup entry will be its Camry model, the best-selling car in America in eight of the last nine years.

"In order for us to become an important part of the American culture, we need to participate in NASCAR at all three levels," Toyota executive Dave Illingworth said. "It will broaden our appeal."

<snip>

NASCAR and Toyota said information regarding possible sponsor and driver lineups in the Nextel Cup and Busch series will be announced today. The last foreign manufacturer to participate in NASCAR's top series was the U.K.'s Jaguar, now part of Ford's Premier Automotive Group of European luxury brands, which entered several events in the 1950s and won a race in 1954.

FSU_Noles
01-24-06, 11:17 AM
Travesty.

Randy_W
01-24-06, 11:37 AM
NASCAR has jumped the shark! It's all down hill from here.:bigroll:

Katshot
01-24-06, 12:10 PM
What will be REAL interesting is the fan reaction. Damn, what if a Toyota actually WINS?!
Like I really care about friggin' NASCAR anyway. :cookoo:
It's been turned into such a circus and IMO, it's arguably worthy of being called "stock-car" racing.

gothicaleigh
01-24-06, 12:19 PM
Exactly. So they put a Toyota badge on a car. I can't see how it's any different than any of the other sponsorships they accept.

It still amazes me how NASCAR, the most intellectually devoid series out there, managed to become the most popular form of professional racing in the world.

FSU_Noles
01-24-06, 12:29 PM
What will be REAL interesting is the fan reaction.

Darrell Waltrip is leading the toyo-charge so there will be some acceptance immediately.


It's been turned into such a circus and IMO, it's arguably worthy of being called "stock-car" racing.

Yes, they have tried to make it too fair. They need to get back to letting the "cars" be more like the cars of old and actually resemble the production models. Bigger cars, higher roofs, less spoiler means slower races, safer races and races that actually involve the driver driving the car.

I usually maintain interest for about 2-3 races a year... Daytona and Talledega for the most part.

Katshot
01-24-06, 02:06 PM
It's not just the cars. The powers that be have managed to manipulate NASCAR to a point that IMO, it's like the WWF on wheels. Just "entertainment" not actual sport anymore.

Randy_W
01-24-06, 02:47 PM
it's like the WWF on wheels.

That's funny, it's exactly what I told my son about 5 years ago, in exactly those words!;)

Randy_W
01-24-06, 03:00 PM
It still amazes me how NASCAR, the most intellectually devoid series out there,

If you think that, you obviously know very little about it. Some of the best engineering minds in the world are on NASCAR teams. Several Formula 1 teams have tapped the resources of Hendrick, Roush and DEI for help with aerodynamics, that relationship is how Jeff Gordon wound up in Europe playing with F1 cars a couple of years ago. Send an F1 engine builder an ohv Nascar block and heads and see what his h.p. output his combo makes compared to the home boy's. It takes a lot more work to squeeze reliable h.p. from a NASCAR rules engine than it does from exotic OHC race only designs.;)

Spyder
01-24-06, 03:08 PM
Yea, I"m not too happy about 'yota being in NASCAR...just doesn't feel right, for this here 'ol country boy. :)

Katshot
01-24-06, 03:13 PM
If you think that, you obviously know very little about it. Some of the best engineering minds in the world are on NASCAR teams. Several Formula 1 teams have tapped the resources of Hendrick, Roush and DEI for help with aerodynamics, that relationship is how Jeff Gordon wound up in Europe playing with F1 cars a couple of years ago. Send an F1 engine builder an ohv Nascar block and heads and see what his h.p. output his combo makes compared to the home boy's. It takes a lot more work to squeeze reliable h.p. from a NASCAR rules engine than it does from exotic OHC race only designs.;)

My guess is she was referring more to the fans than the participants.

Randy_W
01-24-06, 03:43 PM
My guess is she was referring more to the fans than the participants.

Maybe, I still respectfully dissagree, at least as long as the NHL is in business.:thumbsup:

Katshot
01-24-06, 03:52 PM
Maybe, I still respectfully dissagree, at least as long as the NHL is in business.:thumbsup:

HUH? I think she said "series" meaning "racing series". Hell, if you want to open the discussion up to ANY sport....you're asking for endless possibilities IMO. Hell, Dwarf-tossing's still a sport isn't it? ;)

Randy_W
01-24-06, 04:41 PM
She did say series sorry, but I still have her covered;


American Association for Nude Recreation
Southwest Region
http://www.aanr-sw.org/assets/images/autogen/a_region_aanrsw_1.gif
http://www.aanr-sw.org/assets/images/autogen/clearpixel.gifhttp://www.aanr-sw.org/assets/images/autogen/clearpixel.gifhttp://www.aanr-sw.org/assets/images/autogen/clearpixel.gifhttp://www.aanr-sw.org/assets/images/autogen/clearpixel.gifhttp://www.aanr-sw.org/assets/images/autogen/clearpixel.gifhttp://www.aanr-sw.org/assets/images/autogen/__NBanner.gifThe American Association for Nude Recreation - Southwest Region is one of seven regional affiliates of the American Association for Nude Recreation (AANR), the largest nudist organization in North America.
http://www.aanr-sw.org/assets/images/autogen/a_splash_cartoon_001.gif (http://www.aanr-sw.org/html/convention.html)AANR-SW includes more than 2,000 nudists and 23 clubs throughout Oklahoma, Texas, Arkansas and Louisiana.
The biggest region-wide event each year is the annual Convention (http://www.aanr-sw.org/html/convention.html) of the American Association for Nude Recreation - Southwest Region. Whether you can make it all week or just a couple of days, make plans now to be there!
AANR-SW nudists are an active bunch. Each club sponsors regular events, from nude chili cookoffs to volleyball competitions to special celebrations of occasions like Independence Day or Nude Recreation Week. Of course, some nudists will tell you that every day is special when it's spent au naturel.
Some especially memorable events take place as part of the AANR-SW Nude Racing Series (http://www.aanr-sw.org/NRS/index.html). These 5K Runs are sponsored by clubs throughout the region, and they attract serious runners, as well as those who just want an excuse to jog nude through some spectacular terrain.
Social nudism is a family-oriented activity, weekend recreation for some, a lifestyle for others. Itís not uncommon for two, three or even four generations of family members to enjoy nude recreation together. AANR-SW has an active Youth (http://www.aanr-sw.org/html/youth.html) program for the kids of the region.

HotRodSaint
01-24-06, 04:57 PM
It still amazes me how NASCAR, the most intellectually devoid series out there...

At least the intellectually devoid NASCAR fans know the difference between "sponsorship" and "engineering". :bigroll:

jadcock
01-24-06, 05:01 PM
I'm thinking NASCAR's move to more closely equalize the vehicles themselves stems from criticisms that the drivers are untalented and only drive in circles. For sure, it's an igorant statement, but it's a statement nonetheless. I think they've been successful in "creating" more competition, if nothing else.

The open wheel racing garners no interest from me. One guy runs away with the entire season in the first 4 races...what fun is that? Corporate sponsorships there are at least as strong there as in NASCAR. But whether you do or don't like the style of the NASCAR business, you have to acknowledge that they've managed to create an environment in which the level of competition is so intense, one mistake by a driver or his crew or his equipment can mean he's out of the running at the end of the season.

There are a lot of aspects that I DON'T like about NASCAR...their acceptance of unprofessional driving actions on the track is probably what I like the least. But as in a lot of cases, many people will generalize and apply the actions of a few to the entire field of participants and waive the whole sport off as invalid.

I am interested to see how the nationwide acceptance will be of Toyota inserting themselves into some traditionally-domestic markets. The devil's advocate in me sees a lot of future layoffs at domestic auto companies, and possibly some anti-Japanese backlash from that reason alone. Combine that with the fact that a lot of people will see Toyota as trying to supplant Ford and Chevy in our sporting events, and there may be a rather large backfiring at their attempt to "Americanize" themselves. We'll see.

HotRodSaint
01-24-06, 05:10 PM
This is big news from a business standpoint. If Toyota is willing to come and spend money developing a NASCAR stocker, then what's to stop BMW, Audi, Nissan, et al, from doing the same?
(http://www.nascar.com/2006/news/business/01/24/toyota.enters/index.html)

Rumor has it that Honda is looking seriously at NASCAR.

HotRodSaint
01-24-06, 05:16 PM
Bigger cars, higher roofs, less spoiler means slower races, safer races and races that actually involve the driver driving the car.

http://i.a.cnn.net/nascar/2006/news/headlines/cup/01/23/car.of.tomorrow.begins.2007/car.of.tomorrow.384.jpg

NASCAR announced Monday that the Car of Tomorrow will begin competition in 2007. Teams will use the newly designed race car for 16 events next season, beginning with the spring race at Bristol Motor Speedway -- currently the fifth event on the Nextel Cup Series schedule. (http://www.nascar.com/2006/news/headlines/cup/01/23/car.of.tomorrow.begins.2007/index.html)

A five-year project overseen by NASCAR vice president for research and development Gary Nelson, the Car of Tomorrow offers important safety and performance upgrades. It also addresses cost reduction, providing teams with a more efficient car to produce and tune.

HotRodSaint
01-24-06, 05:17 PM
Here's a picture of the Toyota.

http://i.a.cnn.net/nascar/2006/news/business/01/24/toyota.enters/business.384.jpg

I~LUV~Caddys8792
01-24-06, 05:47 PM
My opinion:

I don't mind it at all. I think its good for Nascar to expand their horizons a bit, same for Toyota. I think this will make Toyotas seem "more american" to me atleast. I can see a bunch of Nascar diehards getting pissed about this though.

Adam
01-24-06, 07:30 PM
My opinion:

I don't mind it at all. I think its good for Nascar to expand their horizons a bit, same for Toyota. I think this will make Toyotas seem "more american" to me atleast. I can see a bunch of Nascar diehards getting pissed about this though.

i work the Bristol race, people fight over bowties and blue ovals... this might bring them together to fight the "T" people... :D . why cant it be like the good ole days when it was racing with moonshine in the back of the car? thats how nascar started ya'll! im not a nascar fan though, it doesnt get any more boring.

Ranger
01-24-06, 10:11 PM
Toyota and Honda at Nascar! :vomit: Is nothing sacred anymore? :mad:

I~LUV~Caddys8792
01-24-06, 10:18 PM
That'll be the day when Kia or Hyundai joins Nascar!

davesdeville
01-24-06, 10:37 PM
Hmm... I'm waiting to see what the Toyota fanboys think. They'll probably all go hang themselves when their company goes and does something as hick/country bumpkin/redneck/uncultured as entering NASCAR.

...I think it'll be great!

I~LUV~Caddys8792
01-24-06, 10:54 PM
hahahaha I too wanna see what the ricers think!

Randy_W
01-25-06, 08:47 AM
They'll probably all go hang themselves when their company goes and does something as hick/country bumpkin/redneck/uncultured as entering NASCAR.



Those young execs, programmers, and corporate people that fill the stands these days might be surprised to find out who you think they are. How many moo moo wearing, pink sponge rollers in the hair, front teeth missing yokals do you think can afford tickets at $150 and up? Anyone that thinks NASCAR is like going to the local dirt track on Saturday night, is sadly uninformed! Don't believe me? Check the prices of the vehicles in the parking lots and the motor homes in the infield(not the drivers' motor homes, the fans'). NASCAR is the sport of corporate America, to not know this is to speak of which you have no clue!:bigroll:

Frankly I won't fight the crowds and spend the money, myself. I haven't been to race since about 1983. However to lump all the fans into the group of trailer park trash is not only wrong but makes you look silly for not knowing better!:tisk:

Katshot
01-25-06, 09:08 AM
You're right Randy. It's NOT like it used to be but I think it IS still heavily dominated by mainly blue-collar fans. And as far as the cost of tickets, I think it's probably the same as many other sports venues these days (NFL Football comes to mind) where a vast majority of the people in the stands didn't actually pay for their tickets. I know from personal experience that large numbers (if not most) fans get tickets from others like their bosses, family members, or as gifts from people they do business with. Me? I've been to dozens of NASCAR events and have never actually bought a ticket. Same goes for many major sporting events, concerts and other entertainment venues. On top of that, my tickets were "usually" VIP-type passes that cost even more than the usual tickets. This has been a major point of contention with me for years. It burns me that the average Joe can't afford to take his family to these events anymore. And why? IMO, because corporations are able to buy the tickets and give them away as perks to employees and customers, then write it off on their taxes. So do they care how expensive the tickets are? Hell no.

Jesda
01-25-06, 09:17 AM
Its not a Camry until the driver is going 20mph below the speed limit and blasting Michael Bolton on her way to Starbucks.

gothicaleigh
01-25-06, 11:04 AM
Its not a Camry until the driver is going 20mph below the speed limit and blasting Michael Bolton on her way to Starbucks.

We could also say it's not a Monte Carlo until...

Nah, I seem to have already stated my opinion of NASCAR fans. :canttalk:
(and for godssake take the #3 sticker off your trucks already)

HotRodSaint
01-25-06, 11:17 AM
However to lump all the fans into the group of trailer park trash is not only wrong but makes you look silly for not knowing better!:tisk:

It's amazing how many people hate NASCAR simply because of it's 'southern heritage'. :bonkers:

That sounds pretty bigoted and intolerant to me! :shhh:

noahsdad
01-25-06, 11:50 AM
This thread has swerved off the original road - that being Toyota on the Nascar track. The silly part about it all is that Toyota will probably have very little to do with the engineering of their car - that's handled by the teams. Toyota will just license the use of the name and the body.
At one time, stock car racing was just that - Ford vs GM vs Chrysler. Fans got all cranked up cheering for the cars that looked (and essentially were) exactly like the new cars on the dealer showroom. If I'm not mistaken, Nascar required the manufacturers to actually make and sell to the public a minimum of 100 duplicates of their race cars before that car could compete. Then, along came the Chrysler Superbirds - and everything changed. Those silly looking (on the street at least) winged Roadrunners absolutely dominated the sport for two years.
After that, the promoters of stock car racing recognized that they needed to shift the impetus away from cars engineered by the car companies themselves - to prevent any one company from dominating the sport. The formula became to 'dumb down' (perhaps a better term would be 'equalize') the cars to a neutral platform so the contest becomes more driver vs. driver. The only real science left in Nascar is tire selection and suspension tuning on the day of the race. A Ford body means no more to the performance of the car than the box of Tide on the hood.
I say let Toyota on the track - there's more than one redneck driver left who will be honor bound to make their experience very interesting.

HotRodSaint
01-25-06, 12:15 PM
The silly part about it all is that Toyota will probably have very little to do with the engineering of their car - that's handled by the teams.

To address a few points, and keep it intellectually challenging for the intellectually lazy...

GM, Ford, Chrysler (and now Toyota) do indeed do all of the engineering of the engine. The teams are free to improve them, within the rules, and they do but usually with the help of the manufacturer. The teams also build the chassis and skin them with the provided body, that the manufacturer also designs/engineers in conjunction with NASCAR.

The template racing of today came about not because of the Superbird of the '70's, but the bitching and moaning of Ford and Chevy during the '80's when Chevy complained about the T-Birds dominance (remember the fastback Monte's that was the resonse?) and then Ford complained about the Monte Carlos dominance.

It was also necessary because the manufacturers (then Pontiac and Chevy) were changing to FWD.

So the template was born.

At first it was supposed to mimic the body of the actual car on which it was based. But Ford and Chevy continued to bitch and moan that the other guy had an unfair advantage (the reason the current Monte Carlo is so ugly, is it was designed for NASCAR first with the public being secondary). So NASCAR finally told the kids that NASCAR will control the design and the manufacturers only get to make the nose look like their car.

At the sametime, safety was becoming a bigger and bigger issue, with the death of Dale Earnhardt being the wake-up call the sport needed.

So like all racing, the rules and the cars will continue to evolve. If they do it right, the series will continue to grow. If they blow it, then no other series has their act together to even consider taking over the fans interest.

And the story of CARTs (Indycar) rise and fall is another story for another day...

Katshot
01-25-06, 12:34 PM
It's amazing how many people hate NASCAR simply because of it's 'southern heritage'. :bonkers:
That sounds pretty bigoted and intolerant to me! :shhh:

Ya think? I think that's exagerated a bit. The promoters of the sport have spent many years and even more money maintaining their core market, and yes, it has been the southern male for sure. Mainly the blue-collar guys IMO. Is that what many people hate about the sport? Maybe some do but IMO, I think the bigger issue is what the sport has become. A watered-down, circus-like version of it's original self. No different than many other sports in this country. What starts as something that Joe average American can get involved in and enjoy, becomes a circus side-show that can only be "played" by the rich. Joe average American is relegated to fan-only status. Of course this plays out all over in many different venues and due to the persistence of Joe average American eventually gives birth to a whole new venue that then takes the place of the original. And the cycle repeats itself.

noahsdad
01-25-06, 01:04 PM
HotRodSaint - I hope you weren't calling me intellectually lazy.


GM, Ford, Chrysler (and now Toyota) do indeed do all of the engineering of the engine. The teams are free to improve them, within the rules, and they do but usually with the help of the manufacturer.
Agreed, but the rules on engines are so detailed and restrictive the manufacturers are essentially building the same powerplant.


The template racing of today came about not because of the Superbird of the '70's, but the bitching and moaning of Ford and Chevy during the '80's when Chevy complained about the T-Birds dominance (remember the fastback Monte's that was the resonse?) and then Ford complained about the Monte Carlos dominance.
Agreed again, the process evolved just as you describe, but the shift away from 'stock cars' as originally defined began just after the Superbirds.

Randy_W
01-25-06, 01:12 PM
Agreed, but the rules on engines are so detailed and restrictive the manufacturers are essentially building the same powerplant.


Not so, they are not even close to the same engine. NASCAR only approves or denies the use of engine parts, they play no role in their design or manufacture. Their is no internal engine part from a Ford that will work on a Dodge or Chevy.

Randy_W
01-25-06, 01:17 PM
You're right Randy. It's NOT like it used to be but I think it IS still heavily dominated by mainly blue-collar fans. And as far as the cost of tickets, I think it's probably the same as many other sports venues these days (NFL Football comes to mind) where a vast majority of the people in the stands didn't actually pay for their tickets. I know from personal experience that large numbers (if not most) fans get tickets from others like their bosses, family members, or as gifts from people they do business with. Me? I've been to dozens of NASCAR events and have never actually bought a ticket. Same goes for many major sporting events, concerts and other entertainment venues. On top of that, my tickets were "usually" VIP-type passes that cost even more than the usual tickets. This has been a major point of contention with me for years. It burns me that the average Joe can't afford to take his family to these events anymore. And why? IMO, because corporations are able to buy the tickets and give them away as perks to employees and customers, then write it off on their taxes. So do they care how expensive the tickets are? Hell no.

Blue collar probably does account for 60% of the tix sold and most are still sold to the end user, though more are given away than ever before. But blue collar in no way means these people are rednecks and hicks as implied by some uninformed person earlier.

Katshot
01-25-06, 01:25 PM
Not so, they are not even close to the same engine. NASCAR only approves or denies the use of engine parts, they play no role in their design or manufacture. Their is no internal engine part from a Ford that will work on a Dodge or Chevy.

I think you missed his point.

hardrockcamaro@mac.c
01-25-06, 02:04 PM
how NASCAR, the most intellectually devoid series out there, managed to become the most popular form of professional racing in the world.

The most popular in the world?
That's quite a statement!

It may well be (I don't know) but I hope the data that backs that up is better than for what they call the Baseball World Series...

<grin>

Randy_W
01-25-06, 05:17 PM
I think you missed his point.

How?

Katshot
01-25-06, 05:59 PM
How?

Unless I miss my guess, he didn't mean that they were "literally" building the same engines with interchangable parts. I think his point was that due to such restrictive and detailed specifications, they engines were "virtually" the same.

Randy_W
01-25-06, 06:16 PM
They're not the same, though. They use different bore, stroke, valve angle, cam centerlines and on and on. If you mean they put out similar horsepower numbers, then yes they do. The way they go about getting there, however is quite different. So they are not essentially or otherwise building the same engines. From one Chevy team to another you will find different cams, valve springs, pistons, etc... So no, I don't agree that the engines are the same.

noahsdad
01-25-06, 10:54 PM
Thanks Katshot - that was exactly my point. Yet Randy has a valid argument. The route to arrive at the result does depend a lot on thoughtful engineering.

However I still stick by my primary argument. The Nascar rules are designed specifically to make it a race between drivers, in equally matched cars. That's why the fans hang flags out with driver names and car numbers on them. I doubt many of them know, or care, what brand of car their favorite guy is pretending to drive.

The Toyota car may make an emotional impact, but the engineering won't have much effect.

Randy_W
01-25-06, 11:55 PM
The Nascar (http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=576710#) rules are designed specifically to make it a race between drivers, in equally matched cars (http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=576710#).

I have absolutely no argument with that statement!:thumbsup:

AlBundy
01-25-06, 11:56 PM
I agree why should America shiver whenever you hear a Toyota's name.
Are our cars substandard. Is American muscle afraid of the imports? It's not like selling the most cars. Its about performance of the cars. If America has the muscle & skills to offer enough drivers to the event. Why should we be intimidated by an outsider? What's our problem, has profit blinded our technology toward newer more perfomanced vehicle, built to not only to compete but to surpass the imports?

Stoneage_Caddy
01-26-06, 12:13 AM
As far as nascar looseing its roots ...

I got to hinkin the other day lookin thru some of my books.

The old moonshine cars were far from stock too , the only thing that kept the good ol boys from tearing the fenders off the busness coupe was the fact that the car needed to at least look stock to not draw attention from the revenuers as they passed by...so what would happen if they had an unlimted budget in 2006 to haul some shine to my doorstep here in tampa?

1)well theyd go and get the most common car out there ....

a camry ....

2) Theyd find a really powerful engine thats easy to tune on

Got it , and i still think bill davis flat stole the chrysler desgin for there toyo v8
3) Theyd gut the camry , make it rear drive , and open up some room for a few bottles of shine ...and paint it flat black

well , heres where we lost the roots , the cops will be all over that thing with that bright shiny paint


sounds like nascar is closer to its roots then ever before ....

the cops would never think you were up to no good in a camry .....

Kev
01-26-06, 12:15 AM
It's just not the same as when NASCAR was predominantly filled by moonshiners running their highly modified sleepers on the weekends to prove who was the best at outrunning the feds!
:D :stirpot::alchi::shhh:

Kev
01-26-06, 12:16 AM
Oh, dang ya Mike, ya beat me to it! :thepan: :p

davesdeville
01-26-06, 02:36 AM
Those young execs, programmers, and corporate people that fill the stands these days might be surprised to find out who you think they are. How many moo moo wearing, pink sponge rollers in the hair, front teeth missing yokals do you think can afford tickets at $150 and up? Anyone that thinks NASCAR is like going to the local dirt track on Saturday night, is sadly uninformed! Don't believe me? Check the prices of the vehicles in the parking lots and the motor homes in the infield(not the drivers' motor homes, the fans'). NASCAR is the sport of corporate America, to not know this is to speak of which you have no clue!:bigroll:

Frankly I won't fight the crowds and spend the money, myself. I haven't been to race since about 1983. However to lump all the fans into the group of trailer park trash is not only wrong but makes you look silly for not knowing better!:tisk:

I have nothing against Nascar. Reread my post and see if you get that I was using a Toyota fanboy's perspective.


It's amazing how many people hate NASCAR simply because of it's 'southern heritage'. :bonkers:
That sounds pretty bigoted and intolerant to me! :shhh:

I totally agree.

Randy_W
01-26-06, 08:29 AM
I have nothing against Nascar. Reread my post and see if you get that I was using a Toyota fanboy's perspective.

That's fanboi to you, sir! :D

Katshot
01-26-06, 08:40 AM
I'm FAR from a racing expert. Matter of fact, unless I'm actually participating, I couldn't care less about racing. That said, I HAVE read many articles over the years that were written by people that ARE experts in the field and they have all pointed to the fact that NASCAR is about making money and they have followed much the same path to that success as people like P.T. Barnum and Vince McMahon (of WWF fame). IMO (and many others), NASCAR is just another example of a "sport" that been turned into "entertainment".
As for the cars, yeah, they are "supposed" to be the same but there's room for the talented builder to give their team an edge. No matter how restrictive the powers that be become, there will always be someone creative enough to figure a loophole. Beyond that, I don't give the driver anywhere near as much credit for the win as the guy on the other end of the radio. IMO, the driver is just face in the car. Some are more talented than others for sure but I still think the crew is where the magic is.

Kev
01-26-06, 08:44 AM
It's a team effort for sure. The driver and crew must be good in order to win consistently.

Randy_W
01-26-06, 08:55 AM
I don't think any part of the equation can be missing and still expect to win. The ownership and sponsorship are there to provide funding and leadership. You can't get good sponsors without good marketing. The car chief, crew chief, fabricators, engine builder, tuner and pit crew must all be on the same page as the driver and the driver has to be able to get the most from the combo handed him and be able to explain any changes needed to make the car work better.

RobertCTS
01-26-06, 09:37 AM
If you think that, you obviously know very little about it. Some of the best engineering minds in the world are on NASCAR teams. Several Formula 1 teams have tapped the resources of Hendrick, Roush and DEI for help with aerodynamics, that relationship is how Jeff Gordon wound up in Europe playing with F1 cars a couple of years ago. Send an F1 engine builder an ohv Nascar block and heads and see what his h.p. output his combo makes compared to the home boy's. It takes a lot more work to squeeze reliable h.p. from a NASCAR rules engine than it does from exotic OHC race only designs.;)
I agree with you 100% Randy! This sport has so many engineering, technical issues and complex rules that it's staggering.
On the surface to the novice it looks like Easter with all the brightly colored cars going counter clock wise on an oval track. 47 rednecks beatin' and bangin' around the asphalt at 180+ mph for 400+ miles.
The novice has no idea how difficult it is to drive at those speeds side by side while looking for opportunities to pass. They have no idea of the wind tunnel time spent testing these cars looking for an edge to make the car faster. They don't realize the amount of time spent by Factory and Team Engineers on the dyno to sqeeze out the most HP or the time spent on the chassis, suspension designs and the science of something as little as shock absorber design. Everyone of the race tracks are different and require different set ups.
Another thing the Novice might not know is all of these car bodies are identical as dictated by NASCAR. The Manufacturers/Team Owner are allowed only to apply the grill and taillight decals. So the Toyota will be just like the Chevys, Dodge and Fords. The major difference is the Engines and the Drivers.
You don't have to be to smart to figure out that there's something to this sport to be the biggest spectator sport in the world..unless you choose to believe most spectators are stupid.

Katshot
01-26-06, 10:01 AM
I agree with you 100% Randy! This sport has so many engineering, technical issues and complex rules that it's staggering.
On the surface to the novice it looks like Easter with all the brightly colored cars going counter clock wise on an oval track. 47 rednecks beatin' and bangin' around the asphalt at 180+ mph for 400+ miles.
The novice has no idea how difficult it is to drive at those speeds side by side while looking for opportunities to pass. They have no idea of the wind tunnel time spent testing these cars looking for an edge to make the car faster. They don't realize the amount of time spent by Factory and Team Engineers on the dyno to sqeeze out the most HP or the time spent on the chassis, suspension designs and the science of something as little as shock absorber design. Everyone of the race tracks are different and require different set ups.
Another thing the Novice might not know is all of these car bodies are identical as dictated by NASCAR. The Manufacturers/Team Owner are allowed only to apply the grill and taillight decals. So the Toyota will be just like the Chevys, Dodge and Fords. The major difference is the Engines and the Drivers.
You don't have to be to smart to figure out that there's something to this sport to be the biggest spectator sport in the world..unless you choose to believe most spectators are stupid.

What a condescending post Bob. Could you be anymore abrasive?
One question. If the "...car bodies are identical as dictated by NASCAR." as you say, then why would the teams be spending so much time in wind tunnel testing? :hmm:

RobertCTS
01-26-06, 10:31 AM
What a condescending post Bob. Could you be anymore abrasive?
One question. If the "...car bodies are identical as dictated by NASCAR." as you say, then why would the teams be spending so much time in wind tunnel testing? :hmm:

See..you don't come close to understanding NASCAR racing. There are some allowable variance in grill design, spoiler adjustments, suspension height and front valances. Even the amount of duct tape they place over the grill during qualifing is vital choices.

There was nothing condescending KatShot other than my pointing out that opponents of the sport have little idea what it's all about. Did you know the left side tires on the race cars are smaller? Any idea why? Yes KatShot, the hair goes up on my back when I hear the uninformed make statements like that about the sport.

Randy_W
01-26-06, 10:53 AM
Robert, you're pretty much right on.;)

Kev
01-26-06, 11:02 AM
I agree with you 100% Randy! This sport has so many engineering, technical issues and complex rules that it's staggering.
On the surface to the novice it looks like Easter with all the brightly colored cars going counter clock wise on an oval track. 47 rednecks beatin' and bangin' around the asphalt at 180+ mph for 400+ miles.
The novice has no idea how difficult it is to drive at those speeds side by side while looking for opportunities to pass. They have no idea of the wind tunnel time spent testing these cars looking for an edge to make the car faster. They don't realize the amount of time spent by Factory and Team Engineers on the dyno to sqeeze out the most HP or the time spent on the chassis, suspension designs and the science of something as little as shock absorber design. Everyone of the race tracks are different and require different set ups.
Another thing the Novice might not know is all of these car bodies are identical as dictated by NASCAR. The Manufacturers/Team Owner are allowed only to apply the grill and taillight decals. So the Toyota will be just like the Chevys, Dodge and Fords. The major difference is the Engines and the Drivers.
You don't have to be to smart to figure out that there's something to this sport to be the biggest spectator sport in the world..unless you choose to believe most spectators are stupid.What a condescending post Bob. Could you be anymore abrasive?
One question. If the "...car bodies are identical as dictated by NASCAR." as you say, then why would the teams be spending so much time in wind tunnel testing? :hmm:Funny, I didn't read Bob's post as being condescending but then, my wife has often accused me of being insensitive at times (Perhaps I should get in touch with my inner child... or is it my feminine side? I forget, I get so confused..... but I digress.). It read fairly eloquently to me, I thought it an interesting angle of the sport.

I didn't see your name in there or pick up on anything in Bob's post referring to you or something you said (I must have missed it). Don't take it personal Kevin, I doubt it was intended that way.

RobertCTS
01-26-06, 11:15 AM
I haven't missed a race in years. I find it amazing. Who would think a half pound of air in a tire would change the handling characteristic of the race car. And only getting a half tank of gas on the last few laps to make the car lighter. How about changing all four tires, fill up the fuel tank, and clean the windshield and grill could be done in 13 seconds.

HotRodSaint
01-26-06, 11:38 AM
HotRodSaint - I hope you weren't calling me intellectually lazy.
No, that was directed towards the person who called NASCAR an "intellectually devoid series" while in the same post showing themselves to be devoid of intellect by stating that they couldn't "see how (Toyota placing a badge on a NASCAR was) any different than any of the other sponsorships (NASCAR) accept(s)".

HotRodSaint
01-26-06, 11:44 AM
One question. If the "...car bodies are identical as dictated by NASCAR." as you say, then why would the teams be spending so much time in wind tunnel testing? :hmm:


Didn't ONE of those MANY articles written by EXPERTS you READ teach you ANYTHING about the sport??? :duck:

Condenscending??? :hmm:

Not anymore so than your post using alledged experts to bash what you yourself admit you know nothing about. :shhh:

RobertCTS
01-26-06, 12:01 PM
I'm FAR from a racing expert. Matter of fact, unless I'm actually participating, I couldn't care less about racing. That said, I HAVE read many articles over the years that were written by people that ARE experts in the field and they have all pointed to the fact that NASCAR is about making money and they have followed much the same path to that success as people like P.T. Barnum and Vince McMahon (of WWF fame). IMO (and many others), NASCAR is just another example of a "sport" that been turned into "entertainment".
As for the cars, yeah, they are "supposed" to be the same but there's room for the talented builder to give their team an edge. No matter how restrictive the powers that be become, there will always be someone creative enough to figure a loophole. Beyond that, I don't give the driver anywhere near as much credit for the win as the guy on the other end of the radio. IMO, the driver is just face in the car. Some are more talented than others for sure but I still think the crew is where the magic is.

Darrell Waltrip, one of the winningest NASCAR drivers commented on Dale Earnhardt Sr. He said, "Give Dale a perfect car and he'll wreck it. Give him a bad one and he'll win." Sure the Crew is important but Drivers can make a big difference.

Sure it's all about the money. All the sports are. Look at the salaries..million$
Sure there's entertainment value in all the sports or no one would watch them. Look at all the glitter of the Olympics. It too is all about the money. Good ole Capitalism at work!

Randy_W
01-26-06, 12:46 PM
Funny, I didn't read Bob's post as being condescending but then, my wife has often accused me of being insensitive at times (Perhaps I should get in touch with my inner child... or is it my feminine side? I forget, I get so confused..... but I digress.). It read fairly eloquently to me, I thought it an interesting angle of the sport.

I didn't see your name in there or pick up on anything in Bob's post referring to you or something you said (I must have missed it). Don't take it personal Kevin, I doubt it was intended that way.

Very well expressed, Kev!

Kev
01-26-06, 01:58 PM
Well, I don't know that much about the sport except that they drive funny looking cars on an asphalt track really fast, and, since I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night, I guess that puts me out of the opinion loop completely!

Doh!! :duck:

:p

RobertCTS
01-26-06, 02:28 PM
Well, I don't know that much about the sport except that they drive funny looking cars on an asphalt track really fast, and, since I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night, I guess that puts me out of the opinion loop completely!

Doh!! :duck:

:p

Come on Kev. Get in the loop. Pick a young driver on the way to the top. Maybe Jimmie Johnson in the #48 Chevy Monte Carlo.

http://usera.imagecave.com/BobsWork/JJ.jpg

Or his seasoned partner, Jeff Gordon.

http://usera.imagecave.com/BobsWork/JeffJimmie.jpg

gothicaleigh
01-26-06, 04:15 PM
No, that was directed towards the person who called NASCAR an "intellectually devoid series" while in the same post showing themselves to be devoid of intellect by stating that they couldn't "see how (Toyota placing a badge on a NASCAR was) any different than any of the other sponsorships (NASCAR) accept(s)".

I still haven't heard how exactly Toyota's sponsorship affects the car any more than Budweiser's. Do you think that Toyota is going to build their car in-house? No, they will hire a race car builder like the rest. It's simply money like all the other sponsors.

I like how the NASCAR fanbase defends their sport by giving examples of the engineering, "driver skill", and efficiency of the pit crew as if it were something not practiced in any other racing program from SCCA to F1. It's common practice. Kudos for being mediocre. Where NASCAR especially falls short to me is the race itself, and yes, the sideshow it attracts.

:stirpot:

Katshot
01-26-06, 04:44 PM
Funny, I didn't read Bob's post as being condescending but then, my wife has often accused me of being insensitive at times (Perhaps I should get in touch with my inner child... or is it my feminine side? I forget, I get so confused..... but I digress.). It read fairly eloquently to me, I thought it an interesting angle of the sport.

I didn't see your name in there or pick up on anything in Bob's post referring to you or something you said (I must have missed it). Don't take it personal Kevin, I doubt it was intended that way.

I never said it WAS directed at me personally. I guess you just have to write it off to being another subject that some people can't look at objectively. IMO, it's kind of like professional wrestling. I'd never say it's easy or that no real work goes into it but that still doesn't make it a sport. It is what it is, entertainment plain and simple. Some people just go to great lengths to provide this level of entertainment.

Randy_W
01-26-06, 05:34 PM
Where NASCAR especially falls short to me is the race itself, and yes, the sideshow it attracts.



Who has better racing? F1 where the car on the poll leads every lap and wins the race, primarily because they have the best computer programmers? Maybe those glorified go carts they call Indy and CART where everyone has the same engine?
NASCAR, as I've said before may be headed towards the WWF syndrom, it still rivals any race series for quality racing. It could be better, but so could all the rest. F1 drivers make $30 million a year to sit in the car, start the engine and boot the computers, then hang on and collect the check. I've never seen anyone go down to his local Mclaren dealer to pick up a car that at least resembles the basic shape of the car his favorite driver races.
NASCAR pit crews fill up the car, change 20 lugs and clean the windshield all by hand except for the air wrench, in about the time other series crews change 4 lugs and pump gas electronically with a pump. That takes skill.

HotRodSaint
01-26-06, 06:07 PM
I still haven't heard how exactly Toyota's sponsorship affects the car any more than Budweiser's.

Then before you speak ignorantly, you should study up on the subject.

Powering all of Toyota's American racing programs is TRD, U.S.A. (Toyota Racing Development) in Costa Mesa, Calif., and High Point, N.C. A subsidiary of Toyota Motor Sales, U.S.A., Inc., TRD serves as the North American racing arm for design, development and assembly of Toyota's factory racing engines. In addition, TRD is also the source of high-performance aftermarket products for both street performance and grassroots racing Toyotas. From the race track to the aftermarket product segment, TRD plays a key role in providing Toyota with an enhanced performance image. (http://www.toyota.com/motorsports/news/nextel/2006/1-24-06.html)

The last time I checked, Budweiser wasn't involved in the design, development or the assembly of Dale Jr's Chevrolet engine.


Do you think that Toyota is going to build their car in-house?

Yes, I think that like Chevy, Ford and Dodge, Toyota will be very involved in the R&D of the engine, and to a lessor extent the aerodynamics of the Camry's body.


No, they will hire a race car builder like the rest. It's simply money like all the other sponsors.

It's much more than sponsorship and most intellectually devoid fans know at least this much.

RobertCTS
01-26-06, 06:12 PM
I still haven't heard how exactly Toyota's sponsorship affects the car any more than Budweiser's. Do you think that Toyota is going to build their car in-house? No, they will hire a race car builder like the rest. It's simply money like all the other sponsors.

I like how the NASCAR fanbase defends their sport by giving examples of the engineering, "driver skill", and efficiency of the pit crew as if it were something not practiced in any other racing program from SCCA to F1. It's common practice. Kudos for being mediocre. Where NASCAR especially falls short to me is the race itself, and yes, the sideshow it attracts.

:stirpot:

Are you lonely on the outside looking in Gothica? We are having so much fun in spite of the prudes.:bouncy:

RobertCTS
01-26-06, 06:16 PM
Then before you speak ignorantly, you should study up on the subject. Sponsorship and most intellectually devoid fans know at least this much.

HRS you quote has music to it!:yup: :D I seen a term used once, Psuedo Intellectuals. People think or pretend they are smart.

Miss Ralph? Just kidding Friend:)

RobertCTS
01-26-06, 06:18 PM
I never said it WAS directed at me personally. I guess you just have to write it off to being another subject that some people can't look at objectively. IMO, it's kind of like professional wrestling. I'd never say it's easy or that no real work goes into it but that still doesn't make it a sport. It is what it is, entertainment plain and simple. Some people just go to great lengths to provide this level of entertainment.

Professional Wrestling!! You just lost all of your credibility KatShot.

Katshot
01-26-06, 07:39 PM
Professional Wrestling!! You just lost all of your credibility KatShot.

Hey even your buddy (in this thread at least) Randy agrees with THAT. High quality entertainment it may be but racing it ain't.

Katshot
01-26-06, 07:43 PM
Who has better racing? F1 where the car on the poll leads every lap and wins the race, primarily because they have the best computer programmers? Maybe those glorified go carts they call Indy and CART where everyone has the same engine?
NASCAR, as I've said before may be headed towards the WWF syndrom, it still rivals any race series for quality racing. It could be better, but so could all the rest. F1 drivers make $30 million a year to sit in the car, start the engine and boot the computers, then hang on and collect the check. I've never seen anyone go down to his local Mclaren dealer to pick up a car that at least resembles the basic shape of the car his favorite driver races.
NASCAR pit crews fill up the car, change 20 lugs and clean the windshield all by hand except for the air wrench, in about the time other series crews change 4 lugs and pump gas electronically with a pump. That takes skill.

Come on Randy, a bunch of cars going around an oval is "quality racing"? You CAN'T possibly believe that. Guys that do nothing but make left turns all day are "quality racers"? Please! :cookoo: There isn't a local dirt track racer that can't do that crap.

HotRodSaint
01-26-06, 08:00 PM
Guys that do nothing but make left turns all day are "quality racers"?

At least the can do it for 500 miles.

Where's the quality "driving" in going straight for 1/4 mile!!

Talk about boring to WATCH!!

RobertCTS
01-26-06, 09:11 PM
Come on Randy, a bunch of cars going around an oval is "quality racing"? You CAN'T possibly believe that. Guys that do nothing but make left turns all day are "quality racers"? Please! :cookoo: There isn't a local dirt track racer that can't do that crap.

KatShot You've learned nothing. You're wasting my time.:annoyed: Go play marbles..someting you understand. NASCAR is out of you league.
Ever try Hop Scotch?:D
I gotta go more important threads to read :)

Randy_W
01-26-06, 10:47 PM
We all know about opinions....

noahsdad
01-27-06, 12:07 AM
Katshot does draw a valid distinction when he compares the current Nascar scene to the WWF, with one caveat; "Professional" Wrestling has been a phony scam from day one. At least Nascar has a history of genuine 'who has the best car' racing.

When Nascar started trumpeting silly feuds between drivers, the intentional frags, and the all-too scripted helmet throwing incidents, they jumped on the same entertainment bandwagon as WWF, with a few elements of Roller Derby thrown in the mix. For us old timers, it's just too much soap opera squeezed into a sport that once was just good ole boys tearing it up.

But who can argue with success? The drivers are superstars, most of them young and very GQ. They draw in women fans like moths to a flame, something Nascar NEVER had before the 90s (Tide? Viagra? which gender do you think these cars are aimed at?) . The stands are packed, the televised races get outstanding ratings, the sponsors get great exposure, and everybody makes money. That's what it's all about right?

I don't mean to take anything away from the skill and risk involved. These guys are atheletes, driving superbly engineered machines. The strategy is an artform, the competition is definitely sport. Anyone who thinks it's easy should try it sometime. Most of us would drop dead after five laps of heated competition. I drag raced in the 70s with some success, and lost 6-10 pounds on any given Sunday.

The point is Nascar works, and no one is about to go back to the Richard Petty days. Times change, tastes change. Toyotas will run at Daytona - maybe sponsored by Stay Free Maxi Pads...or Rice a Roni.

Feel free to rip me a new one now.

RobertCTS
01-27-06, 06:44 AM
When Nascar started trumpeting silly feuds between drivers, the intentional frags, and the all-too scripted helmet throwing incidents, they jumped on the same entertainment bandwagon as WWF, with a few elements of Roller Derby thrown in the mix. For us old timers, it's just too much soap opera squeezed into a sport that once was just good ole boys tearing it up.
Feel free to rip me a new one now.

I agree with all you say with the exception of this paragraph. I don't think the likes of Kurt Bush, Tony Stewart and Robby Gordon and there public displays are for entertainment. I think guys like Jimmie Johnson and Ryan Newman would go out of there way to avoid public displays. Yes it is all about entertainment, getting on prime time and racing under the lights. NASCAR wants the whole market segment including the Children. Say "Shit" in front of the kids and your fined heavily and docked points..even if you're the most popular driver. Yep, that's why you see M&Ms and Cheerios on those race cars.

I would choke trying to say NASCAR is like pro-wrestling!

I've got tickets for the Spring Bristol Race!! Probably the most sought after race in the series. 1/2 mile short track racin'. Lotsa beatin' & bangin'. It's what the fans love. The joint sells out every year. "Boogity, boogity, boogity"- Dale Waltrip:D

Katshot
01-27-06, 06:53 AM
At least the can do it for 500 miles.
Where's the quality "driving" in going straight for 1/4 mile!!
Talk about boring to WATCH!!

You don't hear me claiming anything about drag racing being anything other than fun to do. You'll seldom see me at a drag strip unless I'm running.

Katshot
01-27-06, 06:58 AM
I agree with all you say with the exception of this paragraph. I don't think the likes of Kurt Bush, Tony Stewart and Robby Gordon and there public displays are for entertainment. I think guys like Jimmie Johnson and Ryan Newman would go out of there way to avoid public displays. Yes it is all about entertainment, getting on prime time and racing under the lights.
I would choke trying to say NASCAR is like pro-wrestling!

I've got tickets for the Spring Bristol Race!! Probably the most sought after race in the series. 1/2 mile short track racin'. Lotsa beatin' & bangin'. It's what the fans love. The joint sells out every year. "Boogity, boogity, boogity"- Dale Waltrip:D

REAL racers look at today's NASCAR like amateur wrestlers look at the WWF stuff. NASCAR and Professional wrestling are just tarted-up versions of the originals. Fun to watch maybe but NOT to be confused with the originals.
Oh and BTW, if anyone's going to be playing marbles or other childish games, it would be you. You're the one being childish in this thread.

Randy_W
01-27-06, 08:31 AM
Would someone explain who the "REAL" racers are? Certainly not those guys that occupy the seats of those computer controlled go carts called F1. Talk about soap operas, how about the Indy cars with cute lirttle Danica pouting because the mean old boys are picking on her! Want to talk about spoiled drivers, let's talk F1. NASCAR drivers can and regularly do shine any time they race in other series, the same can't always be said for most that try to come to NASCAR from other series. Jeff Gordon has been offered an F1 ride by three teams in the last eight years, Tony Stewart was offered a ride just recently, I haven't seen any Cup teams going to europe to recruit the Shumacher bros.

RobertCTS
01-27-06, 09:36 AM
Would someone explain who the "REAL" racers are? Certainly not those guys that occupy the seats of those computer controlled go carts called F1. Talk about soap operas, how about the Indy cars with cute lirttle Danica pouting because the mean old boys are picking on her! Want to talk about spoiled drivers, let's talk F1. NASCAR drivers can and regularly do shine any time they race in other series, the same can't always be said for most that try to come to NASCAR from other series. Jeff Gordon has been offered an F1 ride by three teams in the last eight years, Tony Stewart was offered a ride just recently, I haven't seen any Cup teams going to europe to recruit the Shumacher bros.

Remember when Jeff Gordon and Shumaker exchanged cars for a day. Jeff was near the F1 track speeds in one day. Shumaker was scared wittless in the Cup car.:yup:

Something else I find amazing is the big interest in NASCAR by the Japanese spectators. I'm sure that caught the eye of Toyota.

What other sport can pack in 150,000 spectators? How many even have a stadium big enough to hold that many?

Good topic HRS. We're into 5 pages.

Katshot
01-27-06, 09:51 AM
There was an article in a magazine a few months ago. I think it was Autoweek but it "may" have been in Road And Track but anyways, it really summed up my thoughts on the sport. I just wish I could find it online. I did find this one:
http://insiderracingnews.com/Rob/061604.html
It's a good article but still not the one I remember. The one I'm trying to find really went into fairly good detail outlining the things that NASCAR has done in recent years that have done more to sell tickets than forward their credibility as a REAL racing series. I'm NOT an expert on the subject as I've mentioned before but that doesn't mean I can't have an opinion that's fairly accurate. I'm certainly NOT the only one who's comparing NASCAR to the WWF and as I recall, in the beginning of this thread Randy agreed with my statement 100% that NASCAR was the WWF on wheels.

Randy_W
01-27-06, 10:04 AM
I told my son years ago that NASCAR was in danger of becoming the WWF of motorsports if they continue to manipulate the series into show biz. Having said that, they still maintain a high level of competion and skill. I use to race go carts and midgets, anyone that thinks turning left at over 1 g, sometimes quite a bit more, for several hours while wrestling a race car, doesn't make them athletes, or require great skill hasn't tried it. Also the fans are anything but a bunch of ignorant yahoo's.

RobertCTS
01-27-06, 10:10 AM
I wonder how many auto racing fans watch wrestling? Wrestling has never been a serious spectator sport.


TSN coverage of Daytona 500 confirms Auto Racing as nation's number one spectator sport



Philadelphia, PA (Sports Network) - The Sports Network, the nation's foremost real-time international sports wire service, has announced that the public's response to its coverage of the Daytona 500 this past weekend has absolutely confirmed what has been known to sports aficionados for years - that auto racing is, indeed, American's number one spectator sport.

RobertCTS
01-27-06, 10:15 AM
Anybody see a connection here?

http://usera.imagecave.com/BobsWork/JeffJimmie.jpg

http://usera.imagecave.com/BobsWork/massivecheech.jpg

HotRodSaint
01-27-06, 10:40 AM
When Nascar started trumpeting silly feuds between drivers, the intentional frags, and the all-too scripted helmet throwing incidents...

I seem to remember fist fights regularly taking place in the '70's. There were more than a few driver vs driver as well as some team vs team fights in the pits after the race.

If that happened today, they'd all be fined and placed on suspension.

I for one miss those old days!! ;)

Today's TV broadcast might be more professional, thus focused on giving the viewers a show, and the "Race for the Chase" might be ill-concieved way to maintain fans interest IMHO, but it's far from being WWF.

RobertCTS
01-27-06, 10:53 AM
I seem to remember fist fights regularly taking place in the '70's. There were more than a few driver vs driver as well as some team vs team fights in the pits after the race.

If that happened today, they'd all be fined and placed on suspension.

I for one miss those old days!! ;)

Today's TV broadcast might be more professional, thus focused on giving the viewers a show, and the "Race for the Chase" might be ill-concieved way to maintain fans interest IMHO, but it's far from being WWF.

It was only a couple of years ago that Jimmy Spencer reached into Kurt Bush's car for a swing.

HotRodSaint
01-27-06, 10:57 AM
REAL racers look at today's NASCAR like amateur wrestlers look at the WWF stuff. NASCAR and Professional wrestling are just tarted-up versions of the originals. Fun to watch maybe but NOT to be confused with the originals.

Maybe you shouldn't be relying on those articles written by experts.

Oval track racing is one of the oldest forms of motorsports, look it up, because I'm tired of teaching you.

It was originally conceived to be a way cars to race long distances, like 500 miles, at top spead against each other on a closed track. At the time, it was possible for a car to go many laps down.

That was in the era when cars won the trophy, and not the driver.

Then europe began building 'road tracks', and the emphasis slowly started to shift towards driver skill.

But even today, there are 2 championships fought out inside F1. The drivers championship, which most people are focused on and the manufacturers championship, which is why the manufacturers spend huge amounts to win.

Is Shumacher the best racer because he's won 7 F1 championships? Or did he have the best cars? That's a debate for another thread that I will start the day that GM enters Formula One racing!!!

Back to oval racing, we still had oval tracks in America. And as those cars raced on them, the cars got faster and faster, with Benny Parsons being the first driver in the world to clock 200mph on a closed coarse (in a Stockcar), it became necessary to start slowing them down. American open wheeled racing was forced to do the same thing.

And once the race changed from being about top speed, to parity among equal, the style of 'oval track' racing also evolved with it.

It does not mean they are not athletes, and it does not mean it is not a sport. It means that todays world is different than yesterdays, and tomorrows will be different than todays.

HotRodSaint
01-27-06, 11:09 AM
Would someone explain who the "REAL" racers are?

These are the comments of the ignorant.

Anyone with an interest in, and appreciation for motorsports, would know that Tony Stewart was an IRL champion BEFORE becoming a NASCAR champion.

They'd also know that Jeff Gordon was running a competitive time on the 3rd lap of his demonstration drive at Indy in Juan Montoyas F1 car.

They are also unaware of the many top tier road racers who have failed to make it in NASCAR, Scott Pruett being one of my favorites.

RobertCTS
01-27-06, 11:25 AM
These are the comments of the ignorant.

Anyone with an interest in, and appreciation for motorsports, would know that Tony Stewart was an IRL champion BEFORE becoming a NASCAR champion.

They'd also know that Jeff Gordon was running a competitive time on the 3rd lap of his demonstration drive at Indy in Juan Montoyas F1 car.

They are also unaware of the many top tier road racers who have failed to make it in NASCAR, Scott Pruett being one of my favorites.

We both like Scott Pruitt. But also like Boris Said and Ron Fellows who are all great road course racers can't get it done on the Cup Ovals!

Katshot
01-27-06, 11:32 AM
Gee, thanks Jeff. Any other barbs you want to throw my way? You guys are so high and mighty. Just because you avid fans, you're the only ones that know the truth? Because YOU guys like NASCAR, it's the ultimate racing series? Because it's popular, it's high quality? Be serious.
Because I can't sit here and go toe to toe with you about this and that concerning the sport, I'm dismissed as being "ignorant". Just remember, regardless of how you view me or my opinions, it doesn't change the fact that many people, knowledgable people in the industry share my views. I guess they're all just ignorant too. :banghead:

Randy_W
01-27-06, 11:40 AM
:violin:

Just kidding Kat, nobody thinks you're stupid. It's not a crime to be ignorant of certain things. We are all ignorant of much and learned of little. I wish I was better versed in a lot of things. I've enjoyed this topic but it's about beat to death.:horse:

RobertCTS
01-27-06, 12:28 PM
Ignorant is a strong word Randy. Maybe a better word is uninformed. I'm like that in a lot of sports like soccer, tennis, hockey etc. I don't consider myself ignorant but I am uninformed by choice. KatShot you pick a poor thread to stand up in. This is a very popular sport, as you say, know little about. You have nothing to gain but to irritate the majority. Save your energy for the important battles where you're better prepared. I'm not trying to put you down man..just pointing out that you have made your opinion known and most of us aren't interested. Hey, that's what forums are for. Discussions. It can be a lot of fun until it gets personal and egos are damaged.

jadcock
01-27-06, 12:29 PM
I'm reading with interest the judgements about the "quality" or "validity" of someone's driving based solely on the racing series in which they participate. Every race series breeds specialized forms of driving. Open wheel cars (at least F1 I guess) do a lot of road course racing. Is it IRL or CART that does a lot of 1.5 mile oval racing? Two race series with relatively similar styles of vehicles but two different styles of racing. NASCAR is predominantly oval racing, with only two road course events sprinkled in. WRC is on/off road with a driver and navigator. Baja racing is mostly off-road, with lots of air time. Then there are dirt tracks which are oval in nature, but where the drivers and vehicles are sliding sideways during the duration of the event, all in complete control of course!

It's not fair to cast judgement about any person's driving ability simply by referencing the style of driving they do most. As was pointed out before, if you put any one of these specialized racing styles into a different vehicle, their world is upside down. It's like saying someone on the street doesn't really know how to drive unless they're driving X brand.

As far as the "sport" being "entertainment", I think in this day in age, the two words are largely interchangeable. I look at every activity classified as "professional sports" and see marketing, corporate sponsorship, corruption at the highest level, substance abuse, and truly fanatic fans who strive to be at or watch every single event during the season. I'm not here to make a claim that any of that is right or wrong, but I am claiming that NASCAR is no different than any other big-dollar business these days, like MLB, NFL, NHL, NBA, or anything else you might otherwise classify as "professional sports".

Interestingly, so far NASCAR has eluded a "driver strike" like what has afflicted other "sports", and their substance abuse record is relatively clean. I think one driver was found to be abusing last year, and he was out for the season, or maybe forever, I don't know. It would be nice if other such "professional sports" would implement a real substance abuse policy, but I acknowledge that that topic is a bit far from the subject at hand.

Randy_W
01-27-06, 12:53 PM
The words ignorant and uninformed mean exactly the same thing. I didn't generate the use of the word ignorant, I just took it from his post as a way pointing out that knowing all is not a crime. I'm living proof! I didn't mean for it to be a put down. The word is derived from ignore, and means basically that you don't know by choice or lack of exposure, it absolutlely doesn't imply stupid in any way and I think Katshot knows that. I'm not into name calling on a personal basis.:thumbsup:

RobertCTS
01-27-06, 12:57 PM
I'm reading with interest the judgements about the "quality" or "validity" of someone's driving based solely on the racing series in which they participate. Every race series breeds specialized forms of driving. Open wheel cars (at least F1 I guess) do a lot of road course racing. Is it IRL or CART that does a lot of 1.5 mile oval racing? Two race series with relatively similar styles of vehicles but two different styles of racing. NASCAR is predominantly oval racing, with only two road course events sprinkled in. WRC is on/off road with a driver and navigator. Baja racing is mostly off-road, with lots of air time. Then there are dirt tracks which are oval in nature, but where the drivers and vehicles are sliding sideways during the duration of the event, all in complete control of course!

It's not fair to cast judgement about any person's driving ability simply by referencing the style of driving they do most. As was pointed out before, if you put any one of these specialized racing styles into a different vehicle, their world is upside down. It's like saying someone on the street doesn't really know how to drive unless they're driving X brand.

As far as the "sport" being "entertainment", I think in this day in age, the two words are largely interchangeable. I look at every activity classified as "professional sports" and see marketing, corporate sponsorship, corruption at the highest level, substance abuse, and truly fanatic fans who strive to be at or watch every single event during the season. I'm not here to make a claim that any of that is right or wrong, but I am claiming that NASCAR is no different than any other big-dollar business these days, like MLB, NFL, NHL, NBA, or anything else you might otherwise classify as "professional sports".

Interestingly, so far NASCAR has eluded a "driver strike" like what has afflicted other "sports", and their substance abuse record is relatively clean. I think one driver was found to be abusing last year, and he was out for the season, or maybe forever, I don't know. It would be nice if other such "professional sports" would implement a real substance abuse policy, but I acknowledge that that topic is a bit far from the subject at hand.

Good post! But you have to admitt some drivers can driver virtually anything with wheels. Jeff Gordon is a good example as is Robby Gordon and Tony Stewart.

I totally agree with the substance abuse Jadcock. NASCAR will not tolerated any abuse on or off the track. Look at Kurt Bush..runs a stop sign and potty mouth's the arresting officer on his on time. Thought to have been drinking but he skirted the sobrity testing. Even so he was banned from racing the rest of the year. And this was a past Cup Champion. Rank doesn't mean squat when it comes to NASCAR rules. Most of these guys are good role models for kids.

RobertCTS
01-27-06, 01:08 PM
The words ignorant and uninformed mean exactly the same thing. I didn't generate the use of the word ignorant, I just took it from his post as a way pointing out that knowing all is not a crime. I'm living proof! I didn't mean for it to be a put down. The word is derived from ignore, and means basically that you don't know by choice or lack of exposure, it absolutlely doesn't imply stupid in any way and I think Katshot knows that. I'm not into name calling on a personal basis.:thumbsup:

I understand you point Randy and I wasn't meaning to be corrective. But uniformed is softer than ignorant even if they mean the same. I saw hair on the neck go up on the use of ignorant and I was mearly trying to calm the waters.:)

Revoh
01-27-06, 01:19 PM
I’m not an expert on anything, but I was the General Manager of a half-mile track that hosted a NASCAR Craftsman Truck race, I’ve been published in 50+ racing journals, interviewed on radio and TV, was the Marketing Manager for another NASCAR sanctioned track, and worked for a NHRA-sanctioned drag strip and SCCA road course. I met my wife when she was working for me as a NASCAR Winston Racing Series official, and I’ve been attending races regularly since before I can remember. I’ve been out of it for a few years, but I still contribute articles and drive the pace truck at the local dirt track on occasion. I’ve attended races at well over 100 tracks. I’ve also stayed at a Holiday Inn Express. FWIW.

I’ve known and watched circle track drivers from this area work their way to the “big time.” There is no doubt that to be good at this, even in a local market, even on a Saturday night dirt track, these drivers have to be beyond exceptional. Some guys that actually have some talent can race for years and never crack a local win. For a guy to break out of the local ranks, he needs to be on another level. You can rest assured that the worst driver even in a Busch Grand National race is most likely a star someplace else. They don’t luck into that—they’re good. I think one of the things that makes big three NASCAR interesting is that you are seeing the best, most driven, most talented drivers thrown into the same ring. And in that regard, it is nothing like professional wrestling, because these drivers are not working off a script, they are all winners, and none of them are willing to settle for less.

A word on the current cars and technology. Like most long-time racing fans, I remember very well when the cars looked different, and you could clearly see which teams were innovative. Frankly, that was more interesting on the surface. With today’s common template cars, if you don’t know a lot about it, I’m sure it’s hard to tell the difference. That being said, why do some teams do better than others? Sure, some of it is the drivers. Ideally, what they want to have is the best driver win, cutting the car factor out of the equation. But the drivers aren’t the only factor, because there are several great drivers. So somehow, someway, these cars, that are cookie cutter, are not as equal as it seems. In fact, there is a ton of innovation going on here, and it is probably more creative than ever, because it has to remain hidden—even in an inspection. As carbon copy as these cars are, every weld, every body panel, every bend, is hand made. There is more craftsmanship that goes into a Nextel Cup car than there is in a new Bentley. And to make one car excel over 42 other cars, the people that built it, both in the body and the engine, had to be damn good.

One of the reasons these drivers have to be as good as they are is because the cars are not that easy to drive at the limit. They don’t go near as fast as an Indycar, for example, but they’re a lot heavier, a lot less aerodynamic, and have lots smaller tires. To put it in a little perspective, it takes bigger balls, to run a ’67 Corvette with a 427 as hard as it will go through a turn than it does to push a new Corvette through the same turn. There isn’t much margin for error in these cars. If you crease a fender, you ruin the handling. That’s how tight the tolerances are. You don’t even have to touch another car to get it to spin out—just disrupt the airflow behind it, and you can send him around. They are always running at the limit of what the cars can do.

Finally, to bring this thread around, my OPINION on Toyota. I don’t know if it will be good or bad for NASCAR. I guess most people don’t care what kind of car races, so it won’t matter much. It’ll probably bring more money in, so the competition might be better and the sport will keep growing. On a personal level, I don’t like it. I don’t like Japanese cars, and I don’t like the idea of them “invading” one of my favorite things. I just don’t want to watch them. I realize I’m probably just a jingoist, but my dad is a retired District Manager with General Motors, and I am flat brainwashed into accepting only American cars. Right or wrong, that’s my opinion, and I’m sure it will suck out a lot of the interest I have in this sport. But that’s just me, and I’m sure they don’t care, so whatever works.

I know a lot of this has been covered, but what the hell--we all have opinions. :)

RobertCTS
01-27-06, 01:28 PM
Well said Revoh!:yup: Hard to believe that a stay at the Holiday Inn Express brought you so far along in the sport:D

Your right of course and it's a sport where something as small as a hot dog wrapper can put you out of the race. Hey, we haven't even touched on restrictor plate racing and it's pros and cons.

HotRodSaint
01-27-06, 01:52 PM
You guys are so high and mighty. Just because you avid fans, you're the only ones that know the truth? Because YOU guys like NASCAR, it's the ultimate racing series? Because it's popular, it's high quality? Be serious.

No, you are dismissed as being uniformed because of posts like this.

I don't think NASCAR is the ultimate racing series. No one that I see, has even remotely made that claim.

I do think it is a 'sport', and the many critics of NASCAR that I've read have never gone as far as you and made the claim that it is not.

Only stick and ball fans with no interest in any type of motorpsorts make these claims, but usually because they can't fathom how the average NASCAR race gets better TV ratings than all but the Superbowl.

Your opinion is just that. An opinion. And we readily dismiss it, because you have not stated any 'facts' that show that your opinion is based on information, but lack of information.

And you call us 'high and mighty'?? You claimed: NASCAR IS NOT A SPORT, NASCAR DRIVERS ARE NOT ATHLETES, NASCAR = WWF, ET AL. So maybe you should objectively reread some of your posts, and then say this again with a straight face.

Until then, me calling you ignorant is not a personal barb, but a commentary based on the facts (or lack there of) as you have presented them.

Kev
01-27-06, 01:58 PM
Very compelling Revoh! Thank you.

And thanks especially for this!
Iíve also stayed at a Holiday Inn Express. FWIW. :):highfive:

Randy_W
01-27-06, 02:01 PM
On a personal level, I donít like it. I donít like Japanese cars, and I donít like the idea of them ďinvadingĒ one of my favorite things. I just donít want to watch them. I realize Iím probably just a jingoist, but my dad is a retired District Manager with General Motors, and I am flat brainwashed into accepting only American cars. Right or wrong, thatís my opinion, and Iím sure it will suck out a lot of the interest I have in this sport.

Right on brother, right on!

HotRodSaint
01-27-06, 02:03 PM
The word is derived from ignore, and means basically that you don't know by choice or lack of exposure...

Wow, so English words have meaning?? :rolleyes:

So if you choose the appropriate word, then that does not necessarily mean you are putting someone down, right? :rolleyes:

Randy_W
01-27-06, 02:12 PM
Wow, so English words have meaning?? :rolleyes:

So if you choose the appropriate word, then that does not necessarily mean you are putting someone down, right? :rolleyes:

Putting down has to do with intent, not wordage. See if you left off the :rolleyes: , your post could have had a different intent.:thumbsup:

HotRodSaint
01-27-06, 02:16 PM
Putting down has to do with intent, not wordage. See if you left off the :rolleyes: , your post could have had a different intent.:thumbsup:

I'm "intellectually devoid", so I don't know these things! :bouncy:

HotRodSaint
01-27-06, 02:19 PM
I know a lot of this has been covered, but what the hell--we all have opinions. :)

The facts may change, but our opinions don't!! :duck:

Thanks for a very good post!! :thumbsup:

RobertCTS
01-27-06, 02:57 PM
A point that may have been overlooked is the creature comforts inside a race car. The temperatures are well over 100 degrees. All the safety features has made the drivers seat very small and tight. You have the Helmet, the visor, the firesuit, fire gloves and boots plus a hauns device that tethers your head to the seat. Roll bars obstructs your vision and movement is limited to see your mirrors. Losing 15 lbs of water is common. The drivers drink water like crazy to keep themselves hydrated..so much so that in a 500 mile race they can piss their pants. Tony Stewart did worse than that. It's a real hell hole for 4-5 hours. Very few sports last that long without a break. I really admire these guys.

http://usera.imagecave.com/BobsWork/jgordon_xl.JPG