: Looked at a few Caddies today!



I~LUV~Caddys8792
01-03-06, 06:26 PM
Alright so today I got bored and decided to take a look at a '94 Fleetwood Brougham for sale in my area. It was dark blue with dark blue velour. It was as big as I imagined, with that very deep dashboard and very enormous interior.

When I got in it, I was surprised because the seats are a lot firmer than the seats in my deville. In my deville you sink right into them. In the Fleetwood, it supports you more. It's quite firm for a Cadillac, not as comfortable as I like. I really liked how the 1994's have the 3 way lumbar, and I thought it was really cool that the FWB's have heated cloth seats! I forgot how wide those B & D bodies are. They are truly a LOT bigger than my deVille. Just like in my Roadmaster, the faux wood trim is coming off the doors, but the interior seems of a higher quality.

I started it up and it idled a lot smoother than the 4.9 does, and it seemed quieter. I didn't get to drive it, because I wasnt gonna buy it right now. I think that car may be a little too long for me to drive easily, but the visibilty was alright, but the tiny mirrors sucked.

Then later, I drove a '95 Eldorado, and I really liked that car.

It felt kinda cramped compared to my car, and it had very poor visibilty out the rear. But I really liked the seats, they were very supportive and still very soft and had plush leather. The seats hugged you like the seats in my friends '95 Bonneville SSE. I don't particularly like the dashboards in the 92-95 Eldos, but its not that bad. I really like the heated seats and floor shift/console.

The steering was nicely weighted and it was pretty quiet inside except for when you got on the throttle and boy that N* sounds nice! It's surprisingly loud for a Cadillac. That Northstar is a very nice motor. It has about 90% of the low end torque of the 4.9, but it pulls much harder above 60mph.
I really like the N*, but I am leery of the aluminium V8's after experienceing some of the things with my 4.9.

Out of the two, I would probably choose the Eldorado because it feels like it fits me more and even though I like the drivetrain of the FWB more, I would like to get the Eldo because I've never had a coupe, and I hear great things about the N*.

What would you choose?

powerglide
01-03-06, 06:42 PM
I love em both....I owned the FWB and loved it.
But the engine was weak for a tank of that size (no offense to any FWB owners) in contrast I was VERY surprised at how fast/quick my N* equipped Deville feels. I'd say its not even a close call in terms of performance.
Since I have already had my turn at the FWB and I wanna try a coupe....I would choose the Eldo.

mccombie_5
01-03-06, 07:01 PM
Never owned the FWB but have owned a 4.9 Eldorado and three Northstars.

Combining the two would be VERY nice, I'd take the Eldo.

I~LUV~Caddys8792
01-03-06, 07:17 PM
Damn.... now I want a Sport Coupe!

Cadillac Eldorado ETC or a Lincoln Mark VIII or a Lexus SC400
I like the VIII's looks the best, the interior of the Eldo, and the engineering behind the SC

What about you? What would you pick?

mccombie_5
01-03-06, 07:19 PM
I like the look of the VIII, but the Eldo would take me every time.

powerglide
01-03-06, 07:22 PM
SC400 is a no brainer for me......but you all know I swing that way :)

I~LUV~Caddys8792
01-03-06, 07:32 PM
http://a332.g.akamai.net/f/332/936/12h/www.edmunds.com//pictures/VEHICLE/1997/Cadillac/17750/001596-E.jpg
v.
http://a332.g.akamai.net/f/332/936/12h/www.edmunds.com//pictures/VEHICLE/1998/Lexus/12899/006419-E.jpg
v.
http://a332.g.akamai.net/f/332/936/12h/www.edmunds.com//pictures/VEHICLE/1997/Lincoln/183/006662-E.jpg

http://i7.ebayimg.com/02/a/05/d5/b6/85_4.JPG
v.
http://images.consumerguide.com/autoreview/400x266/1992-2000-Lexus-SC-300-400-93806041990107.JPG
v.
http://i16.ebayimg.com/03/i/05/d1/7f/4b_12.JPG

mccombie_5
01-03-06, 07:33 PM
Eldorado is nicer outside, the Lincoln is nicer inside, the Lexus is a car I really dont like.

I~LUV~Caddys8792
01-03-06, 07:35 PM
The Lexus looks like a 1995 Nissan 240SX in profile.

mccombie_5
01-03-06, 07:39 PM
The Lexus looks like a 1995 Nissan 240SX in profile.

IMO reason not to get one

I~LUV~Caddys8792
01-03-06, 07:43 PM
yeah, it doesnt look luxurious enough like the Mark VIII, it looks smaller and sportier.

AlBundy
01-03-06, 07:55 PM
Toss a coin between the Eldo & the Mark, both are very nice cars(with very expensive shocks/struts).

90Brougham350
01-03-06, 08:51 PM
The Eldo is definately the looker in the bunch. Plus, the Northstar does it for me, even over the RWD and 4.6 in the Mark VIII

powerglide
01-03-06, 11:50 PM
My thoughts:

Eldo looks the best from the outside. (1 point for eldo)
The lexus looks the best on the inside (1 point for Lex)
Lexus is the most reliable BY FAR (1 point for Lex)

Winner --> Lexus

I have to disagree with McC on this....I think the Lincoln looks like crap on the inside. Its so cheap and horrible in person.

The lexus looks bland but it exudes quality up front in person.

DopeStar 156
01-04-06, 12:27 AM
I'm not big on Lexus either. Lexus is too close to Nissan where as Cadillac and Lincoln are pretty far from Chevy and Ford. Cadillac more so than Lincoln really, but still.

fpmesiIII
01-04-06, 01:23 AM
lexus = best reliability out of the three

I~LUV~Caddys8792
01-04-06, 01:31 AM
True, about the Lexus having the best quality, but I can imagine it would have higher insurance rates and it probably has the highest theft levels. I am amazed with the 4.0 DOHC V8 they have in that. It seems to be quite the motor. The Lincoln's interior is very nicely designed, but it does have a lot of cheap, hard plastics on the dashboard and door panels. The Caddy definetly has the best interior of the three!

davesdeville
01-04-06, 04:18 AM
The Lexus is not a luxury sport coupe in my mind. It's way too "boy racer" to be luxury.

IMO interior goes to the Eldo. The Mark is nice, and has the cool dash but overall the Eldo is warmer and more inviting it seems to me. The Lexus interior looks like ass, and not a nice ass like Jennifer Lopez's ass. Overcomplicated center console and the shifter looks straight out of 1984.

Exterior goes to the Eldo as well I think. If you like rounder cars then the Mark. If you want to be mistaken for a $10k Civic, get the Lexus.

As far as the engine/drivetrain goes, the ETC is gonna outrun the LSC Mark, which is gonna outrun the SC400. If you want to keep it stock or near stock, the ETC is the way to go. If you want a 12 second street demon with class, the 4.6 4v in the RWD Mark is definately the ticket. If you wanna be "JDM Tyte, yo!" go for the SC400...

powerglide
01-04-06, 04:30 AM
Funny how you mention boy racer.....in Japan the SC300 is available in TwinTurbo version (shared with Supra) really fast.

I~LUV~Caddys8792
01-04-06, 11:41 AM
Well I really like the RWD configuration more, but I may want to stick with FWD if I stay in MN. Also, as much as I like the N*, I dont like the Transverse V8's. It's quite hard to access simple things like plugs and wires.

Jon
01-04-06, 12:15 PM
Out of those 2, I'd take the Eldorado, mainly because of the styling.

But if you're lookin for a car, I really think you should buy my CTS ;)

I~LUV~Caddys8792
01-04-06, 01:24 PM
No, I don't care too much for the CTS's (no offence)
and it's way out of my price range :)

And I would either like a luxury coupe like an Eldo, or a big RWD monster like a Brougham/Town Car.

noahsdad
01-04-06, 03:10 PM
Trust me, you don't want the MK VIII. Fat tures + RWD + light rear end + Minnesota snow = handles like a tobaggan.

Look for a nice Park Avenue Ultra - same platform as the Caddies, rides just as good, and it's cheaper to fix. I just saw a 2000 with 110K for 5Gs. Find an old lady with an '87-89 and just few trips to church on that 3800, and you'll have a car that will take you 250K without a hiccup.

AlBundy
01-04-06, 03:47 PM
Go with the Mark. If you know how to drive snow & rain shouldn't be much of a problem.

I~LUV~Caddys8792
01-04-06, 03:55 PM
noah'sdad- Thank you for the advice, but this car is not something to get me through college. I am going to keep my '92 for that and after I graduate college I wanna get something I really want, and something that I couldnt afford earlier. The Mark VIII/ Eldo/ SC400 may just be a summer car and I would get something else for the winter time like an older Town Car. I want to spend around $14,000 on two different cars, I could possibly do this with a Mark VIII and a Town Car.

brougham
01-04-06, 04:23 PM
Out of those 3 cars the Lincoln looks the best on the outside and on the inside. That's the one that I'd buy. The Lexus is ugly. I don't like those Eldorados either but at least it looks better then the Lexus does. It's funny that all those cars look like they have the same steering wheel!

I~LUV~Caddys8792
01-04-06, 04:29 PM
Looking at pedigree and history, the Lincoln Mark series has always impressed me. Out of the 8 generations, I really like 7 of them. Second is the Eldorado, and Lexus really has no pedigree.

Adam
01-04-06, 05:14 PM
can you get pics of that Eldo? i would always go with a Fleetwood, but i dont understand the seat issue. i mean my 89 Deville had always felt a little more firm than the Fleetwood. hmmm, weird. how much for the Eldo?

I~LUV~Caddys8792
01-04-06, 05:25 PM
Well I'm not buying either car now, I just looked at them to get a feel for the car. I think the Eldo was $6995 and the Brougham was $4995. Oddly enough, the Brougham had a sunroof which I really liked.

Eldo-
http://images.autotrader.com/images/2005/12/24/190/487/11160732.190487906.IM1.MAIN.565x421_A.562x421.jpg
Brougham-
http://images.autotrader.com/images/2005/12/25/194/293/11982961.194293975.IM1.MAIN.565x421_A.562x421.jpg

I~LUV~Caddys8792
01-04-06, 06:46 PM
There is more of an aftermarket with the 4.6 Cobra 32 Valve V8 right?

What does the N* have for aftermarket?

90Brougham350
01-04-06, 08:25 PM
There's a good amount you can do to the Ford engine, I can't think of much you can really do to a Northstar. At least, I never hear of anyone upgrading this or that.

Night Wolf
01-04-06, 09:15 PM
My gosh..... Eldorado.... by far! ETC please... 1995 would be nice too :)

inside, outside, engine, nameplate.... the Eldo has it all over the others IMO.

If I wasn't totally set on a truck next, I would get a sweet '95 ETC :)

I~LUV~Caddys8792
01-04-06, 09:30 PM
That eldo was harder than my deVille to navigate due to the sloping hood, lack of a hood ornament and thick C pillars. That and the FWD/transverse V8 are the only main problems I see with that generation of Eldorados.

I~LUV~Caddys8792
01-04-06, 09:35 PM
noah'sdad- Thank you for the advice, but this car is not something to get me through college. I am going to keep my '92 for that and after I graduate college I wanna get something I really want, and something that I couldnt afford earlier. The Mark VIII/ Eldo/ SC400 may just be a summer car and I would get something else for the winter time like an older Town Car. I want to spend around $14,000 on two different cars, I could possibly do this with a Mark VIII and a Town Car.

Wait nevermind about the 2nd car, I just realized by the time I can get a Mark VIII/Eldo, I wont need another car as a daily driver/winter car because my deVille will have less than 150k on it, and it should still be running alright.

AlBundy
01-04-06, 10:45 PM
Thanks alot for the Info. buddy. I just couldn't happen to notice a new post about a Lincoln Continental. I guess I will visite that thread.

I~LUV~Caddys8792
01-04-06, 10:51 PM
Thanks alot for the Info. buddy. I just couldn't happen to notice a new post about a Lincoln Continental. I guess I will visite that thread.

Wait, what info? what now im confused..

AlBundy
01-04-06, 11:08 PM
Maybe I'm crazy but I just left a post in another thread about a Lincoln contental you purchased. It maybe an old thread revitalized. If it is I'm sorry.

I~LUV~Caddys8792
01-04-06, 11:19 PM
No, I almost bought a Town Car, but I didnt have enough money, and I had decided that another big luxo liner wouldnt be a smart move at this point in my life..so I'm gonna wait until after college :)

davesdeville
01-05-06, 03:21 AM
There is more of an aftermarket with the 4.6 Cobra 32 Valve V8 right?
What does the N* have for aftermarket?

As far as aftermarket, the 4.6 4v (Mark VIII) wins hands down. Although the Mark's 4R70w trannys aren't as strong as the 4T80e's in N* cars. There are a few goodies availible for Northstar cars, however: 80mm throttle bodies, exhaust, high stall torque convertor, ported heads, and nitrous are the ones that come to mind. Stock for stock, an ETC will beat an LSC. Through about 450hp or so they're fairly equal. You want more than that you get the 4.6 4v.

Night Wolf
01-05-06, 07:14 AM
Yeah, if you want an all out super fast car to build, the Mark is the choice....

Personaly, the 4.9 in my '93 Coupe is plenty of power for all the driving I could ask for, the car never feels slow, or underpowered.

Throw on another 100hp to that, and gosh... If I had an L37 Northstar (running.... in a car :) ) I don't think I would even bother with any performance parts. Mid-high 14's in the 1/4 mile stock? I'd be plenty happy.

Jesda
01-05-06, 09:50 AM
Some things to clear up in this thread:

Toyota -> Lexus
Nissan -> Infiniti

Don't insult Nissan by associating it with Lexus. :)

I~LUV~Caddys8792
01-05-06, 11:28 AM
A ETC will run mid 14's in the quarter mile?!?!

Between that 95 Eldorado I drove, and the 93 Mark VIII I drove about 5 months ago, I believe the Eldo had better seats, but the VIII had the better dash layout and it was easier to park due to the better sightlines. Also, the N* is a great sounding motor, but very loud for a Caddy. It's pretty loud when you're inside the car, with the windows up and the radio on, and the 4.9 in my deville is pretty loud too, but that really surprised me.

I~LUV~Caddys8792
01-05-06, 11:41 AM
Maybe I should take a look at a 97-99 Deville Concours and a 95-02 Continental if I want a sophisticated, powerful V8 in a sedan application.

Night Wolf
01-05-06, 11:44 AM
That eldo was harder than my deVille to navigate due to the sloping hood, lack of a hood ornament and thick C pillars. That and the FWD/transverse V8 are the only main problems I see with that generation of Eldorados.

How is a FWD V8 a "problem"?

I dunno though... I never needed a hood ornament for have to see the front of the hood to drive a car... yeah I like it, but it isn't needed, I have drove many cars where you don't see the hood...fine for me.

* Hell every Eldo since 1967 has been a FWD V8 :)

Night Wolf
01-05-06, 11:46 AM
A ETC will run mid 14's in the quarter mile?!?!

Between that 95 Eldorado I drove, and the 93 Mark VIII I drove about 5 months ago, I believe the Eldo had better seats, but the VIII had the better dash layout and it was easier to park due to the better sightlines. Also, the N* is a great sounding motor, but very loud for a Caddy. It's pretty loud when you're inside the car, with the windows up and the radio on, and the 4.9 in my deville is pretty loud too, but that really surprised me.

Yup, do the traction disable trick, and if the Northstar is in good tune mid 14's should be pretty simple.

mccombie_5
01-05-06, 11:47 AM
How is a FWD V8 a "problem"?
I dunno though... I never needed a hood ornament for have to see the front of the hood to drive a car... yeah I like it, but it isn't needed, I have drove many cars where you don't see the hood...fine for me.
* Hell every Eldo since 1967 has been a FWD V8 :)

Torque steer

Any more than about 230bhp through the front wheels is often spun away, plus there are understeer issues, and less balance :thumbsup:

Night Wolf
01-05-06, 11:57 AM
oh, believe me, I know all about that :)

The Northstar has equal-length CV shafts to help eliminate torque steer.

The 4.9 dosn't have any, neither does the 3800 V6 in my Olds.... my fathers lightly modded '99 Grand Prix GTP (s/c 3800) has loads... gosh, the first time I hit the gas going around a turn in that thing it nearly ripped my arm off!

Due to the design, torque range and gearing of the Northstar though, many N* cars aren't too traction limited off the line... hell a 4.9 and a N* will hold about even until 30mph or so.

All said and done, I would take the torque steer, understeer, and all else of the FWD Eldorado over a RWD Infinity/Lexus.... it isn't even a consideration as far as I am concerned :)

mccombie_5
01-05-06, 12:01 PM
oh, believe me, I know all about that :)
The Northstar has equal-length CV shafts to help eliminate torque steer.
The 4.9 dosn't have any, neither does the 3800 V6 in my Olds.... my fathers lightly modded '99 Grand Prix GTP (s/c 3800) has loads... gosh, the first time I hit the gas going around a turn in that thing it nearly ripped my arm off!
Due to the design, torque range and gearing of the Northstar though, many N* cars aren't too traction limited off the line... hell a 4.9 and a N* will hold about even until 30mph or so.
All said and done, I would take the torque steer, understeer, and all else of the FWD Eldorado over a RWD Infinity/Lexus.... it isn't even a consideration as far as I am concerned :)

Same here in the case of the Lexus, Ive never experienced an Infiniti, but I much prefer my Seville to one of the older Lexus' and I can say that there is less torque steer in my Seville (300bhp V8) than in my Vectra GSi (200bhp V6)

90Brougham350
01-05-06, 01:19 PM
Basic knowledge of physics. Easier to push than to pull. The weight transfer that occurs when you mash the fun pedal take the weight from a RWD car and pushes it back to the rear wheels for better traction. Does just the opposite in FWD. The weight leaves the front wheels. Plus, you can't do doughnuts in a FWD car!:lildevil:

mccombie_5
01-05-06, 01:26 PM
Basic knowledge of physics. Easier to push than to pull. The weight transfer that occurs when you mash the fun pedal take the weight from a RWD car and pushes it back to the rear wheels for better traction. Does just the opposite in FWD. The weight leaves the front wheels. Plus, you can't do doughnuts in a FWD car!:lildevil:

Heeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeelllllll Yeah!

I~LUV~Caddys8792
01-05-06, 01:57 PM
How is a FWD V8 a "problem"?

When I was selling my Roadmaster, I thought it would be neat to have a car with a V8 pulling the front wheels, but after a while I realized that I was wrong.

I grew to not liking having all that power go through one front wheel. It's very easy to spin one tire. And the torque steer isnt that bad, atleast in the bigger cars, since Caddy has always installed equal length half shafts, but having the front tires do all the work really cuts down on the life of the tires, and the handling is not as good, because the car's weight is less balanced.

Oh yeah and its very hard to access simple things like plugs and wires on most transverse V8's Especially the 4.9

I~LUV~Caddys8792
01-05-06, 01:58 PM
Does just the opposite in FWD. The weight leaves the front wheels.


And that makes for some pretty damn good burnouts when you have all that torque!

90Brougham350
01-05-06, 02:19 PM
Ah yes, but the truly powerful engine and RWD combo will lay a patch, even with the additional traction....lol

I~LUV~Caddys8792
01-05-06, 02:24 PM
Oh god yes, I can tell stories all day about doing that in my Roadie!

davesdeville
01-05-06, 06:17 PM
A ETC will run mid 14's in the quarter mile?!?!

Between that 95 Eldorado I drove, and the 93 Mark VIII I drove about 5 months ago, I believe the Eldo had better seats, but the VIII had the better dash layout and it was easier to park due to the better sightlines. Also, the N* is a great sounding motor, but very loud for a Caddy. It's pretty loud when you're inside the car, with the windows up and the radio on, and the 4.9 in my deville is pretty loud too, but that really surprised me.

Honestly bone stock you're looking more towards mid-high 14s. 14.6-14.9 or so.

The Eldo does have better seats. The Mark's dash is cool, although I don't really prefer it over the Eldo's. IMO there's no question which is easier to park, the Eldo. It is much more square and you can actually see about where the car ends. With the Mark you have a sloping surface so more guesswork is involved. The giant C pillar is the only thing I don't really like about the Eldo, although it looks cool from the outside it does cut down on visibility. Still, nothing that turning your head can't fix.


Basic knowledge of physics. Easier to push than to pull. The weight transfer that occurs when you mash the fun pedal take the weight from a RWD car and pushes it back to the rear wheels for better traction. Does just the opposite in FWD. The weight leaves the front wheels. Plus, you can't do doughnuts in a FWD car!:lildevil:

You're not going to be worrying too much about the weight transfer until you're in the low 14s or better. Some drag radials or ET streets, along with pulling the ride height sensor to raise the rear end will just about cure traction problems in any N* Caddy.


Oh yeah and its very hard to access simple things like plugs and wires on most transverse V8's Especially the 4.9

Actually plugs and wires are quite easy to do on the northstars. Basic maintenence isn't a problem because of the transverse setup, although involved maintenence is easier on most RWD cars.

Night Wolf
01-05-06, 06:33 PM
Basic knowledge of physics. Easier to push than to pull. The weight transfer that occurs when you mash the fun pedal take the weight from a RWD car and pushes it back to the rear wheels for better traction. Does just the opposite in FWD. The weight leaves the front wheels. Plus, you can't do doughnuts in a FWD car!:lildevil:

Ahhh.....

trust me, I COMPLETLY understand any/all pros/cons to each and the difference associated....

But a FWD V8 isn't a *PROBLEM* it is simply a different way of driving the car. It also has more to do with the car itself then the draintrain as well... an example, my '93 Coupe DeVille grips and goes, minimal wheel spin, even when turning and accelerating, it just goes. The '79 OTOH will sit there and spin the tires if it could. That car is traction limited pretty bad. A stock 425 and 2.28 and the tires still spin when trying to accelerate around a turn... the rain or even the snow? forget it.. and this is new tires too.

In a stright line... well, honestly, the 3800 Olds and the 4.9 DeVille would chrip the tires and grip well..... exactly what the '79 does though it is more sluggish off the line then both of the other cars.

Of course none of my cars are high performance cars, and I will always take RWD over FWD if equal, but in the case of the Northstar, I believe it is a perfect amount of power for FWD, and becuase of the N* having a much greater top end, despite all the extra power, the bottom end is nearly the same as the 4.9, the 4.9 may even have the edge.... so yeah, you can say 300HP is alot for FWD, but really that 300HP is at a point in the rev band when the car will already be moving, and that woudln't matter.

I like the Eldorado so much that I would take the lack of performance mods and FWD hands down over the Lexus thing or the Mark.... it simply isn't a factor for me, I have no problem with FWD, it simply dosn't bother me, plus the Northstar has plenty of performance stock that I don't think I would feel the need to make it any faster, for a daily driver.... I don't feel the need on my '93 DeVille witht he 4.9.... runs a solid 15.9s 1/4, so I think a N* Eldo running mid-high 14's (near Mustang GT... or atleast last gen) would be more then enough.

Of course in any sort of performance, sports, or muscle car RWD rules all (I don't care for AWD) and in a truck... well, yeah, RWD.... I am getting a truck next, so my next vehicle will be RWD.... 2 FWD and 2 RWD...fair enough :)

Night Wolf
01-05-06, 06:51 PM
When I was selling my Roadmaster, I thought it would be neat to have a car with a V8 pulling the front wheels, but after a while I realized that I was wrong.

I grew to not liking having all that power go through one front wheel. It's very easy to spin one tire. And the torque steer isnt that bad, atleast in the bigger cars, since Caddy has always installed equal length half shafts, but having the front tires do all the work really cuts down on the life of the tires, and the handling is not as good, because the car's weight is less balanced.

Oh yeah and its very hard to access simple things like plugs and wires on most transverse V8's Especially the 4.9

power thru 1 wheel?

It has a normal differential.... get Posi if you wanna spin both wheels.

I'll tell ya now, the 4.9 in the Caddy and even the 3800 in the Olds, in a stright line if I hit the gas from a stop, would spin BOTH tires and leave rubber with BOTH tires.

the '79?

the only time the left tire spins is in reverse :) I swear it spins the right tire only all the time... RWD alone isn't going to guarantee you traction..... I get far more one wheeler peelers from the RWD '79 then I ever did with either the FWD Olds or FWD Caddy.

IIRC the 4T60E does NOT have equal-length driveshafts, that is the 4T80E on the Northstar....

The tires thing is kind of a mute point... the rear tires DO alot of work when turning, if they weren't there, the back end woudln't stay in a stright line :)

So it isn't hard to rotate tires... in the case of my '93, 1 set of tires is twice as old as the other, so it is easy, new tires go on front, old/ semi-worn go on back, when the back tires get to the warning indicators or below, I go and get new tires, the old front tires go on the back and the new tires on the front...process starts over, it works well.

handling? FWD/RWD has NOTHING to do with the weight balance of a car... ok, I am wrong to a point... but again, RWD can help to make the weight more even, but that is only so much. Take the '79 for example, it is insanely front heavy.... if the gas tank is almost empty, forget about a smooth ride, the rear axel will hop over speed bumps, going into my driveway etc...

Yet both the Olds and the Coupe DeVille handle like they are on rails for the size of the car they are. Never once in either car have I ever felt the car coudln't handel anything I was doing, and the Olds has 4 worn struts, and I have done some pretty scarey things in the '93 Coupe that I will never do again.... yeah FWD will understeer, but RWD will oversteer.... of course there is a nice balance somewhere in between.....

but simply saying FWD sucks for handling is false... maybe back in 1983 when FWD was new, but today, FWD cars handle just as well, if not better then RWD cars. Hell if you were to compare FWD/RWD based off my '79 and '93 DeVille alone, you would never want RWD again....

About working ont he cars... yeah.... but I don't mean to be rude, but you say you never work on your own cars.... IMO if you don't work on your own cars, then the difficulty to work on such a design is not valid.

but again, the difficultly to work on a car dosn't have to do with FWD or RWD... just how bad the engineers wanted to cram everything in under the hood. I know, hell I OWN a FWD car that is a freakin dream to work on, I swear it has to be one of the best engines to work on, simply becuase there is room around it (3800 V6 in '89 Olds) The 425 is only easy to work on because there is alot of room in the engine bay. Replace #8 spark plug on the 425, then tell me how much better RWD is over FWD :) Anyone that has owned these cars knows what I am talking about. The 4.9 engine itself is a VERY easy engine to work on, much more then other engines, but because it is a rather large V8 in a rather small engine bay, there is no room around it. Still, I don't have *that* much of a problem... some things, motor mounts etc.. are a major PITA... but what are ya gonna do.

and with new cars, it isn't like you gotta work on them every weekend.... on any given Northstar, what do you do? replace the plugs/wires every 100k miles? then regular oil changes? there isn't much else to "tune-up" and I would gladly own a Northstar is it means I have to kill myself to change spark plugs once every 5 years or so, big deal.

I can name quite a few RWD cars that are a PITA to work on.....

Here is a RWD car.....

http://i10.ebayimg.com/01/i/05/d2/46/89_3.JPG

That looks like a gem to work on :rolleyes:

No thanks, I'll glady take the sideways mounted 4.9 in my DeVille.... I kinda twitch just looking at something like that MB.

Night Wolf
01-05-06, 07:13 PM
Personally I like the big C-pillar on the Eldo, I am sur eit cuts back on visibility, but it is cool, one of the many things I like about the Eldo.

Dave made a good point about involved work... yeah, say, swapping a cam, on a RWD car (or atleast classics) you can do that in the car... on a FWD car, then the engine has to come out....

Of course with OHC/DOHC that is a mute point.

I used to care alot about RWD/FWD.... hell I still do, but the fact is, on a daily driver, even a pretty powerful luxury car etc... it just isn't a factor in difference.

If I want to go fast and handle good, then I buy a Corvette, and yeah, it better be RWD..... if I wanna cross the Baja 1000 then I buy a Tacoma and it better have RWD too.... but for every day use arguing over such points is kinda foolish.

mccombie_5
01-05-06, 08:46 PM
Here is a RWD car.....
http://i10.ebayimg.com/01/i/05/d2/46/89_3.JPG
That looks like a gem to work on :rolleyes:
No thanks, I'll glady take the sideways mounted 4.9 in my DeVille.... I kinda twitch just looking at something like that MB.

Just an observation Rick, but that car is the S500? That cost what, $122k new. I should know I bought one in 2000. I wouldnt dream of touching the 5.0 V8 under that hood, regardless of what I was under there for, I wouldnt touch it. When you have a car that cost that much, you just don't even think about going in there.

A Mercedes Benz tech probably looks at that and thinks, yeah thats pretty much what I was trained on, I can work with this.

You're used to working on GM engines... the 3800, the 4.9 etc, which are a completely different cup of tea to the S500 engine.

This is a Northstar from a Seville:

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c249/mccombie_5/Car%20Pictures%20-and%20other%20random%20crap%20i%20need%20to%20host/Engine.jpg

I dont think thats any more inviting to work on than the 6.0 V12 in my S-Class. To be honest, most V8 engines are as complex as each other, and no matter how you look at it are going to be taking pretty much all of the room in an engine bay, particularly in a Mercedes Benz, which has to fit a 6.0 V12 or a 5.0 V8 into a space that also needs to accomodate a 3.2 I-6 Diesel, or a 3.2 I-6 petrol engine.

Honestly, any engine thats a V8 is going to be difficult to maintain, and work on because no matter waht capacity its at a V8 engine is physically big.

Take a look at this:
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c249/mccombie_5/Car%20Pictures%20-and%20other%20random%20crap%20i%20need%20to%20host/v12Engine.jpg

Thats an engine as in my S600, now that isnt any more or less inviting than the 5.0 or N*.

As for balance with a RWD car, I prefer a RWD to a FWD in this respect, it is more balanced than a FWD car, and with majority of Cadillacs it isnt going to matter anyway, because you are hardly going to be booting it around doing powerslides into corners, thats not what its meant for, but compare two small cars, like the new VW Golf R32 (3.2 V6) and the new BMW 130i (3.0 I-6) and most will find that the BMW is more balanced because it has the engine at the front and the rear wheels driving, compared to the Golf which is front heavy, and the front wheels dont half work more handling all of that power and turning at the same time, was it not for ABS we would probably stilll be driving RWD.

This cannot be said for all FWD cars, some (and I can only name a handful) are balanced just right, one that strikes in particular is the original Alfa Romeo GTV6, which was front wheel drive but had the gearbox right out at the back, balancing it superbly.

And not all RWD cars are balanced well either, look at the original Porsche 911, it had the engine and the drive wheels at the back, and frankly it handled like soap.

It is MOSTLY the case, having owned a fair few FWD and RWD cars that FWD has less balance than RWD, and most of the time doesnt handle as well as a RWD car.

As the point has been made before, but it is easier to push 2 tonnes of car than it is to pull it. Just look at nature, (ok stick with me) how many animals are pulled along by their front legs? Very few. Most are pushed with force by their rears, apart from elephants of course, they are AWD :D

powerglide
01-05-06, 09:14 PM
I agree with McC about preferring RWD too.
The load transfer makes it a better spot to apply the power to the pavement, the front wheels are already doing enough steering the car etc.

Interestingly enough, a FWD car is more stable than a RWD (geometrically):

Its analogous to pulling a sting vs pushing a string.

When its pulled from the head (FWD), the rest of the body naturally straightens out (this is because the total potentaial energy of the system is minimized when straight, hence its stable in that shape and wants to be in that shape).

When you push the string from the back (RWD), it may remain straight if its stiff enough, but its not stable in that shape, it doesn't want to stay straight.

I~LUV~Caddys8792
01-05-06, 09:26 PM
For some odd reason, I cannot get my deVille to spin both tires. When I am going straight, it'll spin the right tire, and when I'm coming out of a turn, it will always spin the inside tire.

I'm positive that my deVille handles much better than a FWB or my Roadmaster. Even back in 1967, when the Eldo first came out I remember reading articles saying how well it handled and how it cornered so neutrally with barely any understeer and no oversteer.

And yes, the 3800 is a dream to work on, I have seen it firsthand on that 1992 Oldsmobile Ninety Eight I almost bought. It seems as though they have too little motor for too much space, it has tons of clearance. Where as the 4.9 is a pretty big motor in a pretty small space, which makes it very hard to access the rear plugs, and even the front ones arent the best to get at.
Now I'm not saying that all FWD engines are harder to work on or access, some are, like the one I have.
3800-1991 Buick Park Ave
http://photos2.ebizautos.com/240/827651_13.jpg
4.9- 1993 Deville
http://i22.ebayimg.com/01/i/05/89/09/d2_12.JPG

When I saw the SOHC 4.6 in the '90s Town Cars, I said, wow that appears like its very easy to access the important parts like plugs, wires, oil filter etc
http://image.inkfrog.com/pix/ebayads/n_634942_25.jpg

Do you think theres a reason behind most heavy luxury cars being RWD????

Jesda
01-05-06, 09:48 PM
The MB S-class doesnt look that bad to me. Then again for the past three years I've been molested the Q45, which was daunting at first. Once you learn your way around any engine, its easy-cheesy.

Night Wolf
01-05-06, 10:16 PM
Just an observation Rick, but that car is the S500? That cost what, $122k new. I should know I bought one in 2000. I wouldnt dream of touching the 5.0 V8 under that hood, regardless of what I was under there for, I wouldnt touch it. When you have a car that cost that much, you just don't even think about going in there.
A Mercedes Benz tech probably looks at that and thinks, yeah thats pretty much what I was trained on, I can work with this.
You're used to working on GM engines... the 3800, the 4.9 etc, which are a completely different cup of tea to the S500 engine.
This is a Northstar from a Seville:
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c249/mccombie_5/Car%20Pictures%20-and%20other%20random%20crap%20i%20need%20to%20host/Engine.jpg
I dont think thats any more inviting to work on than the 6.0 V12 in my S-Class. To be honest, most V8 engines are as complex as each other, and no matter how you look at it are going to be taking pretty much all of the room in an engine bay, particularly in a Mercedes Benz, which has to fit a 6.0 V12 or a 5.0 V8 into a space that also needs to accomodate a 3.2 I-6 Diesel, or a 3.2 I-6 petrol engine.
Honestly, any engine thats a V8 is going to be difficult to maintain, and work on because no matter waht capacity its at a V8 engine is physically big.
Take a look at this:
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c249/mccombie_5/Car%20Pictures%20-and%20other%20random%20crap%20i%20need%20to%20host/v12Engine.jpg
Thats an engine as in my S600, now that isnt any more or less inviting than the 5.0 or N*.
As for balance with a RWD car, I prefer a RWD to a FWD in this respect, it is more balanced than a FWD car, and with majority of Cadillacs it isnt going to matter anyway, because you are hardly going to be booting it around doing powerslides into corners, thats not what its meant for, but compare two small cars, like the new VW Golf R32 (3.2 V6) and the new BMW 130i (3.0 I-6) and most will find that the BMW is more balanced because it has the engine at the front and the rear wheels driving, compared to the Golf which is front heavy, and the front wheels dont half work more handling all of that power and turning at the same time, was it not for ABS we would probably stilll be driving RWD.
This cannot be said for all FWD cars, some (and I can only name a handful) are balanced just right, one that strikes in particular is the original Alfa Romeo GTV6, which was front wheel drive but had the gearbox right out at the back, balancing it superbly.
And not all RWD cars are balanced well either, look at the original Porsche 911, it had the engine and the drive wheels at the back, and frankly it handled like soap.
It is MOSTLY the case, having owned a fair few FWD and RWD cars that FWD has less balance than RWD, and most of the time doesnt handle as well as a RWD car.
As the point has been made before, but it is easier to push 2 tonnes of car than it is to pull it. Just look at nature, (ok stick with me) how many animals are pulled along by their front legs? Very few. Most are pushed with force by their rears, apart from elephants of course, they are AWD :D

Hey, hey. hey........

you don't have to "convince" me RWD is better :) or how it is different... I already know all about that...

I was simply sticking up for FWD, and explaing how in your normal daily driver... there isn't a difference...

I have no idea what Mercedes that is, I went on ebay and typed 2005 Mercedes and that came up so I went with it... I bet the lesser cars are just as complex.

It wasn't to say that MB is complex and Cadillac isn't, it was in reference to a statement made that ALL FWD V8 are hard to work on, yet RWD V8 is easy.... that isn't the case, I proved it.

Really though, not targeting anyone in particular, but as I was typing up that FWD thing there, I KNEW I was gonna get hounded by everyone... but realize that I don't need to be told the difference, basic physics of cars, or why one is better, I am simply sticking up for something because another statement was made that is was a drawback... or basically a reason NOT to choose said car, when in reality, it is a mute point.

Sure the Cadillac Eldorado ETC is a fast car... but it isn't going to be in the Baja 1000, isn't going to be powersliding side ways or a 10sec drag car etc... they are daily drivers, and I was simply defending the fact that it isn't going to matter if that car was FWD or RWD, for the most part.

Night Wolf
01-05-06, 10:18 PM
I agree with McC about preferring RWD too.
The load transfer makes it a better spot to apply the power to the pavement, the front wheels are already doing enough steering the car etc.
Interestingly enough, a FWD car is more stable than a RWD (geometrically):
Its analogous to pulling a sting vs pushing a string.
When its pulled from the head (FWD), the rest of the body naturally straightens out (this is because the total potentaial energy of the system is minimized when straight, hence its stable in that shape and wants to be in that shape).
When you push the string from the back (RWD), it may remain straight if its stiff enough, but its not stable in that shape, it doesn't want to stay straight.


ah gosh guys... this isn't agree with Mccombie or Rick here....

*I PREFER RWD ASWELL*

I know about weight transfer

and pushing is better then pulling....

please, everyone I was sticking up for FWD in a daily driver.... trying to stay cool here....

Night Wolf
01-05-06, 10:27 PM
For some odd reason, I cannot get my deVille to spin both tires. When I am going straight, it'll spin the right tire, and when I'm coming out of a turn, it will always spin the inside tire.

I'm positive that my deVille handles much better than a FWB or my Roadmaster. Even back in 1967, when the Eldo first came out I remember reading articles saying how well it handled and how it cornered so neutrally with barely any understeer and no oversteer.

And yes, the 3800 is a dream to work on, I have seen it firsthand on that 1992 Oldsmobile Ninety Eight I almost bought. It seems as though they have too little motor for too much space, it has tons of clearance. Where as the 4.9 is a pretty big motor in a pretty small space, which makes it very hard to access the rear plugs, and even the front ones arent the best to get at.
Now I'm not saying that all FWD engines are harder to work on or access, some are, like the one I have.
3800-1991 Buick Park Ave
http://photos2.ebizautos.com/240/827651_13.jpg
4.9- 1993 Deville
http://i22.ebayimg.com/01/i/05/89/09/d2_12.JPG

When I saw the SOHC 4.6 in the '90s Town Cars, I said, wow that appears like its very easy to access the important parts like plugs, wires, oil filter etc
http://image.inkfrog.com/pix/ebayads/n_634942_25.jpg

Do you think theres a reason behind most heavy luxury cars being RWD????

With the new higher performance Good Years on 16" wheels, it gripes more then spins..... depending on conditions and how happy the car is, if I lay into it from a stop it'll either chrip the right wheel and go, or spin both tires.

it isn't that the 3800 has a big bay and the 4.9 has a small bay....

the engine bays are nearly identical... they are sister cars!

add 1.1L and 2 cylinders and thats what happens....

I use my 3800 as an example, because I did EVERYTHING on that car.. as far as tune up items... O2 sensor on DeVille was a PITA, on the Olds it was right there, so easy. All plugs and wires for the 3800 BAM! right there. Hell, replacing the water pump in the dead of winter was easy too, the ONLY thing that had to come out to gain (easier) access to the water pump was the coolant/washer fluid jugs (1 unit) 2 bolts and that thing was out... there was SO much room around all the accessories it wasn't funny... I mean it was more easy to change that water pump then it would be on the 425.....

I reaplaced the radiator in the Olds too... lots of stuff... VERY easy.

Want to know the most difficult part of ANY of the work on that engine, let alone the whole car?

the freakin PCV valve... yup, thats it... its in a crappy spot with a crappy hose... took about 20mins to get it.... kinda sad that is the worst thing I have had to do on that car, eh?

My 3800... I spent plenty of time over the years working on it... such a dream... gosh what an amazing car....

http://inoventionseast.com/Oldsmobile/3800.jpg

Maybe I'll find the pictures of changing the water pump and all the room I had and stuff.

I~LUV~Caddys8792
01-05-06, 11:22 PM
I know how easy it is to access parts on the 3800. When I was looking at that Ninety Eight I was amazed at how easy it was to access the plugs/wires, and even the coil pack is right in front! Ingenious! I couldnt believe how much of a difference that 1.1L and 2 cylinders made.

Looking back, I really wish I would have bought a 1991-96 Oldsmobile Ninety Eight instead of the deVille. Its got all the luxury, and its simpler, and probably more reliable! And it gets better fuel economy and is cheaper to run and fix. I should have waited on the Caddy until after college.

CaddyCrisis
01-05-06, 11:44 PM
Looking back, I really wish I would have bought a 1991-96 Oldsmobile Ninety Eight instead of the deVille. Its got all the luxury, and its simpler, and probably more reliable! And it gets better fuel economy and is cheaper to run and fix. I should have waited on the Caddy until after college.


Is someone bashing the caddy? Just kidding man, I understand where your coming from.

90Brougham350
01-05-06, 11:49 PM
Do you think theres a reason behind most heavy luxury cars being RWD????

Easier to design. Larger luxobarges are (American at least, I don't know anything about foreign) usually body on frame, while FWD vehicles seem to be Unibody more often. I think it's easier to build a RWD body on frame vehicle than it is to build a FWD body on frame, but just a thought. It's just the physics thing. It's just easier to push a '76 Fleetwood with a GVW of 6600 lbs. than it would be to pull it. But Rick is right, FWD is just fine for a daily driver. Hope you don't think we were beating you up too badly Night Wolf!

I~LUV~Caddys8792
01-05-06, 11:52 PM
FWD is great for a daily driver..dont get me wrong, especially in the snowbelt

Night Wolf
01-06-06, 12:04 AM
well, the 1967+ Eldorado proved that moving a huge car with FWD.... works... well. As much as we may not like it, read the road test reviews from the era, everyone loved it.

Owning both a '89 Olds 88 and '93 DeVille.... I was say the Olds is by far the better daily driver... just so much better... probably because I didn't worry about it as much (anal with the '93) 22/32mpg on regular was sweet, parts were cheap.... it was a freakin NICE car, I really like it... glad I never sold it.

RWD is just considered "better" so a premium luxury car will mostly be of that design... body on frame designs ride alot better then uniboy, same thing with traditional double A-arm fron suspension over struts... its just so much better.

My Oldsmobile was a dream in the snow, even having fun in a snow covered field where the snow was coming up over the hood, that car never lost traction or anything.... if you live in a Northern climate with alot of snow, I would definitly reccomend FWD... not to say RWD is impossible... my mother has always, and still has owned RWD cars, all these years and never a problem. I have driven my '79 in some pretty bad snow.... scarey at times, but I am here and the car is safe :)

I~LUV~Caddys8792
01-06-06, 12:12 AM
Hey if you can drive a big heavy RWD car with a ton of low end torque in the deep snow, and do alright, then you can pretty much drive anything in my book :)

My Roadmaster with new tires was better in the snow than my deVille is. All that weight over the rear axle certainly helps in the snow.

I~LUV~Caddys8792
01-06-06, 12:46 AM
Hey why is it that the FWB with the V4P towing package is rated at 7000 lbs (?) and the 91-97 Town Cars with the towing package can only tow like 3 or 4 thousand pounds? Is it just because of the LT1's big power advantage?

Night Wolf
01-06-06, 01:25 AM
Hey if you can drive a big heavy RWD car with a ton of low end torque in the deep snow, and do alright, then you can pretty much drive anything in my book :)

My Roadmaster with new tires was better in the snow than my deVille is. All that weight over the rear axle certainly helps in the snow.

None of that was the problem....

the fact the car is insanely front heavy, and at the time had nearly bald (below warning indicators) tires on the back, and worn tires on the front....

made my 10min trip home from school nearly an hour.....

atleast this past time I drove it in the snow it had the new tires... still, going up hills the back end was all over the palce.

powerglide
01-06-06, 02:30 AM
ah gosh guys... this isn't agree with Mccombie or Rick here....
*I PREFER RWD ASWELL*
I know about weight transfer
and pushing is better then pulling....
please, everyone I was sticking up for FWD in a daily driver.... trying to stay cool here....


I didn;t mean to sound like I was disagreeing with somwthing you wrote....I just read the part where Craig was talkin about the benefits of RWD and just went ahead and agreed with it. Its all good :grouphug:

mccombie_5
01-06-06, 07:20 AM
I didn;t mean to sound like I was disagreeing with somwthing you wrote....I just read the part where Craig was talkin about the benefits of RWD and just went ahead and agreed with it. Its all good :grouphug:

Me neither for the record, I was just sticking an opinion in there.

Although for a daily driver RWD is hellish fun :lildevil:

Not that I do much sideway action.

I'll stick to my 4Motion for work.

FWD on a luxury or prestige car, well I think its the reason Saab and Volvo arent quite up there with BMW and Mercedes for luxury cars.

Well and the fact V8s in Volvos and Saabs are non existant.

I~LUV~Caddys8792
01-06-06, 04:50 PM
None of that was the problem....

the fact the car is insanely front heavy, and at the time had nearly bald (below warning indicators) tires on the back, and worn tires on the front....

made my 10min trip home from school nearly an hour.....

atleast this past time I drove it in the snow it had the new tires... still, going up hills the back end was all over the palce.

I think it would have helped if you had a Limited Slip Differential. That way it woudnt have been spinning one tire. From what I have heard, if you have an LSD, its harder to get stuck in the snow, but if you do get stuck, its really quite hard to get out.

mccombie_5
01-06-06, 05:20 PM
I think it would have helped if you had a Limited Slip Differential. That way it woudnt have been spinning one tire. From what I have heard, if you have an LSD, its harder to get stuck in the snow, but if you do get stuck, its really quite hard to get out.

Yup thats just about right.

Adam
01-06-06, 05:40 PM
that's a sharp lookin Eldo. i would still (me that is) go with the Fleetwood anyday cause i think it is a nicer car. but that is just my opinion... plus the fact that these things are getting more and more rare. i see Eldo's all the time but that just might be because of were i live. regardless, go with what makes you happy and i hope you do. if you are getting the Eldo i will be happy, atleast you'll still be getting a Cadillac. like i said, that is a sharp looking Eldo and if there wasnt a Fleetwood involved, i would definitely go for it. i almost got a 96 Eldo last summer for a daily but the interior was literally falling apart and it had 160k miles on it (mistake in the paper said 60k). i really like them though. the Mark interior is nicer IMO but do they have the same suspension as the Continentals? if so that would seal the NO on it. my 95 Continental spent more time in the shop than any car i ever had. it was always something stupid but nothing with the engine or drivetrain... as far as im concerned it was rock solid. i bought that thing in June of 03 with 129k miles on it. in June of 05 i let my little brother trade it in after driving it for 3 months with 136k miles on it... if that tells you anything.

I~LUV~Caddys8792
01-06-06, 07:42 PM
The Continental and Mark VIII have similar suspensions.
Both have 4 air bags, but the Continental has the system called "Four Corner Semi-Active Suspension System" where the driver can adjust how the car rides by pushing a button on the dash. They have soft, sport, and medium. Same for the steering too. The Mark VIII still has the quad air bags, but you can't adjust those.

So basically for the large sedans I would choose a Town Car over a Fleetwood Brougham, and In the sport coupes, I'm not sure which I would choose yet, I would have to drive em side by side to really decide.

powerglide
01-06-06, 08:47 PM
I love the towncar too....but after living in NYC, its hard to imagine actually buying one for personal use. There are more towncars than Crown Vics in NYC all cars for hire. Devilles are much rarer, but even so I have had 2 incidences when an idiot actually jumped in my back seat told me to drive em someplace....imagine if I had a Towncar it would have happened all the time...

This really altered the image I have of the Towncar...too bad.

I have owned both the Towncar and Fleetwood in the past and I'm glad. But I don;t think I will be buying either again.

I~LUV~Caddys8792
01-06-06, 11:47 PM
Powerglide, what did you like and dislike about each cars?
What kind of Town Car did you have?

powerglide
01-09-06, 03:10 AM
Powerglide, what did you like and dislike about each cars?
What kind of Town Car did you have?

I had a 1984 TC and a 1988 FWB.

My particular TC has some serious electical problems....probably was flood damaged. I liked it ok, the engine revved smoothly and freely and the style was classic. But the main reason I will never buy a TC again would be because I lived in NYC where they are EVERYWHERE. I just can't imagine buying one for personal use.....its worse than Crown Vics for me. (I'm sure theyre good cars, but its just a personal thing I can't get over.....everytime I see one it looks like a hired car/cab)

The FWB was sweet, but my gripe is with the engine. It was weak. Always felt sluggish and its just not strong enough to move that tank around. When I first drove my Deville I was SHOCKED because of my recollection of how underpowered my last caddy was. I think its feels like its twice as more powerful than my old FWB. It guzzles gas and puts out too little performance in return IMHO.

I~LUV~Caddys8792
01-09-06, 10:25 AM
Yeah I drove a 1990 Brougham with the 307 and I totally agree with what you say, but wouldnt the 84 Town Car be more lethargic due to the 302 having like 10 less horsepower and like 25 less lb/ft of torque? Maybe it had better throttle responce because it was EFI. :hmm:

Luckily, there arent as many Town Cars in MN as there are in NYC. But there are still many more Town Cars than there are FWB's.

I~LUV~Caddys8792
01-09-06, 08:00 PM
Between the ETC and Mark VIII, I'm almost positive I'd go with the ETC if I could find one newer than 1996 (better dash) with lower miles, in great shape, and if it was in Black, then the Mark VIII wouldnt stand a chance!

My dream ETC
1996-2002
Black exterior
tan leather
sunroof
12 disk cd changer
onstar
hands free cell phone (will new cell phone work too?)
onstar