Ok, so I got off on some warped tangent looking at Aussie sites.

What do you think about using this car, the Holden Statesman V8 (http://autoweb.drive.com.au/cms/A_2309/article.html) as a basis platform for the new Fleetwood?

The Caprice never died overseas. Holden started making them, as there is still sufficient worldwide demand for it. Some dimwit at GM felt the US didn't need them anymore. I think a lot of marketing people at GM need to find work elsewhere with decisions like that.

But take the Statesman V8, use the AWD drivetrain from the Holden Crewman Cross 8 (aka, El Camino) and stretch the Statesman, give it a Cadillac roofline, amenities and such, use the new 6.2L engine slated for the Escalade for this year, and have a truly worldclass sedan that can take on the world in a worthy manner, taking its rightful place at the top of the Cadillac lineup... And then go take on the rest of Detroit's sports cars for power and acceleration!! Lest we forget having a real V4P package again, allowing a killer sedan towing machine!

Sorry, I hate to say it, but a Deville doesn't belong as the king of Cadillac's large sedans. Just not right.

Now GM can't whine and cry that they will have to do all this work to climatize the car for the rough and cold that the US has that Australia doesn't have. They GTO has been out for a few years now and this has been figured out and done. So, give GM 9-12 months tops and the Fleetwood could return.

I dont like it. Its not "cadillac like"
And no, Deville shouldnt be a "large sedan"

This is a large sedan Cadillac
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v230/towncar097/MyBrougham.jpg

Exactly!

It would take some restyling, the rear end isn't so bad, but needs tall vertical tail lights (the new DTS lights?) and a longer trunk, and a longer wheelbase with world class interior room. With the L92 at the heart of it (no N* guys, we need serious torque), costs would be decent for the drivetrain, offering AWD for about the same $ as the N* drivetrain w/4T80E.

In my not always so humble opinion!

And please NO to that new Cadillac grill! YUK! Gotta be a classic FW grill. Longer nose too. Make it look sharp!

needs a complete body redesign. Cadillacs are supposed to have corners. They *should* have fins too. The Statesman needs a completley different roofline, trunkline, rear quarters - that is a complete redesign to the unibody and crash structure. Could take some time.
I agree, the fleetwood would be right to bring back, but the Fleetwood has always been a stretched DeVille, not a whole different vehicle.

If they do bring it back, please don't compare this to the GTO return. Sorry, but that was a huge anticlimax. Great engine, nice IRS, body lacking - no style. Didn't it have struts (gag) up front though? It also looks too much like the last Mustang, or the Volvo C70.

I can't stand the pathetic Deville, and never have--it's more Buick-grade than anything else in the lineup.

I'd LOVE to see a new, cutting edge Fleetwood replacement flagship that was not only as highly detailed, refined, and stylish as some of the best big luxo sedans out there--but was unique in the fact that, still, it could retain some kind of an upgraded towing package like mentioned here. Kind of in the same way it would be if MB offered a full-size S-class with a higher performance, "tough" tow package:yup:

It trully would be awesome to see another, worthy of carrying on the Fleetwood name--but still had the posh, the quality, the refinement, and the performance to battle the best of them. Last I remember hearing, Caddy is still working on their idea for a super high end, $100k+ super luxury competitor to the Bentley's and Roll's of the world, but you never know, given the current rough times at GM. That type of car would probably be something above the kind of new Fleetwood I think we'd all like to see, but still an amazing car if ever produced.

I am not a car designer, so I don't know all the "corners" (pun intended) in it, but I have always felt that sheetmetal redesigns are pathetically easy. Even roofline shouldn't be a big deal. It is the unibody underneath (being we are likely stuck with it, I would rather have the quiet isolation of body on frame) that is already designed and proven (hopefully that can easily pass US crash testing). Like a Eldo to a Riviera to a Toronado. Or a Seville to an Aurora. Or a LeSebre to a Bonneville. Just sheetmetal changes. They all have unique rooflines, which should be easy.

So we have the Statesman, a larger car than the average, based on RWD, easily made AWD (which in this day in age, should be standard on a high class luxo cruiser). By all means fins! Seems the 99 Devilles had the last of "fins" if you could call them that. They are small and sutle, that follow up to the tops of the tall taillights (something I really do like on the 89-up Cadillacs, FWD) Gotta stretch it to at least 18 feet, no less. Need worthy leg room in back. And a trunk the mob would be proud of....

needs a complete body redesign. Cadillacs are supposed to have corners. They *should* have fins too. The Statesman needs a completley different roofline, trunkline, rear quarters - that is a complete redesign to the unibody and crash structure. Could take some time.
I agree, the fleetwood would be right to bring back, but the Fleetwood has always been a stretched DeVille, not a whole different vehicle.

If they do bring it back, please don't compare this to the GTO return. Sorry, but that was a huge anticlimax. Great engine, nice IRS, body lacking - no style. Didn't it have struts (gag) up front though? It also looks too much like the last Mustang, or the Volvo C70.

The ULS will be built, I hope more than anything for the future of Cadillac. The DeVille cannot be the largest Cadillac anymore than a 5-series Beemer being the largest. The ULS has to be the most expensive, most luxurious, and most powerful Cadillac ever built. If the XV-12 Northstar is powering it, Cadillac will once again have a world class vehicle. If they twin turbo it and call it a ULS-V, AMG will have a little competition. Certain Cadillacs are remembered because they were special, the V-16s from the 30's, the '59 Eldo, '75 Seville, '04 CTS-V, and the future ULS will hopefully be one of them. If Cadillac doesn't build a true flagship car, they're a leaderless subsidiary.

This concept of the Statesman based Fleetwood AWD would most definately dethrone the S500 4Motion and the BMW 740iL.

What is the ULS? The Sixteen?

I dunno if I wanna see the Fleetwood back..... I'm afraid of what would happen to the great Cadillac flagship car..... It'd be nice to see the Fleetwood back but it wouldn't fit in today's automotive world. A Fleetwood needs a long nose, long trunk, skirts, etc. Caddy needs some big RWD car for the commercial area. Ever seen a DeVille stretch limo? Don't look right. FWD and a Northstar don't work well in that area. If done well and done right the Fleetwood could come back. However it wouldn't be the "Fleetwood" it'd be called something else or even the FTS or FLS or something entirely different. Today's Cadillac is not Fleetwood friendly and that's the real problem.

With a redesign I can see it. I would love to see it. That car would need a lot of work, but worth it. Alot more work than GTO was.

Something I forgot. They would need a coupe version, then I would be real happy.

"Today's Cadillac is not Fleetwood friendly and that's the real problem."

Interesting thought. I think you're probably right too. Yes, there's a GM chassis in production that could be tweaked to make a new Fleetwood but, after reading the review of it, I don't think I'd want it to be the basis of a Cadillac Uber-car. The press is tough on any car that's simply something loosely based on an existing car. And enthusiasts aren't always any better. Prime example would be the GTO. I agree there's a need, and maybe even a market for a new Fleetwood but it would certainly be a rather small market. So why would GM/Cadillac bother to pour such ultimate design and technical goodies on a car that will most likely sell in very small numbers and be scrutinized to death by the world? Does GM/Cadillac have what it takes to produce the car as it will certainly be needed to be done? It can't afford anything less than a home run right out of the box, and GM/Cadillac hasn't shown that it is capable of such a feet IMO.
If you look at all the cars that would be it's competition, the MB S-class, the BMW 7-series, etc, these cars sit rather quietly atop their respective marques lineup. They are certainly not as popular, or as revered as their lesser siblings. Everyone wants to know about the BMW 3 & 5 series cars but you never hear much about the 7-series. Everyone talks about the C & E class cars but seldom do you read much about the S-class. I think the OEMs realize they need "something" big and expensive at the top of their lineup but it's not their bread and butter car so there's not much emphasis placed on it. Taking this in mind, try to build a good business case for a new Fleetwood. Especially one that would be built as the "ultimate" car you suggest it should be. I think this is why GM/Cadillac is dragging their feet when it comes to building anything to slot in above the Deville.

"Today's Cadillac is not Fleetwood friendly and that's the real problem."
Interesting thought. I think you're probably right too. Yes, there's a GM chassis in production that could be tweaked to make a new Fleetwood but, after reading the review of it, I don't think I'd want it to be the basis of a Cadillac Uber-car. The press is tough on any car that's simply something loosely based on an existing car. And enthusiasts aren't always any better. Prime example would be the GTO. I agree there's a need, and maybe even a market for a new Fleetwood but it would certainly be a rather small market. So why would GM/Cadillac bother to pour such ultimate design and technical goodies on a car that will most likely sell in very small numbers and be scrutinized to death by the world? Does GM/Cadillac have what it takes to produce the car as it will certainly be needed to be done? It can't afford anything less than a home run right out of the box, and GM/Cadillac hasn't shown that it is capable of such a feet IMO.
If you look at all the cars that would be it's competition, the MB S-class, the BMW 7-series, etc, these cars sit rather quietly atop their respective marques lineup. They are certainly not as popular, or as revered as their lesser siblings. Everyone wants to know about the BMW 3 & 5 series cars but you never hear much about the 7-series. Everyone talks about the C & E class cars but seldom do you read much about the S-class. I think the OEMs realize they need "something" big and expensive at the top of their lineup but it's not their bread and butter car so there's not much emphasis placed on it. Taking this in mind, try to build a good business case for a new Fleetwood. Especially one that would be built as the "ultimate" car you suggest it should be. I think this is why GM/Cadillac is dragging their feet when it comes to building anything to slot in above the Deville.
Yep. Pretty much what I was going for with that sentence.... Still, I agree it'd be cool to see the beast come back, but it's just not the right time.... Maybe sometime in the near future with the way cars are starting to come out now like the return of the V8 Impala. It's well on it's way back to possible.....

I still believe they'll build the ULS (Ultra-Luxury Sedan). Even if the only proof I have is a little snipit from Autoweek a few months ago, I'm still going to hope for it.

http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29347

This is an old thread and the think to Autoweek doesn't work anymore, but the thread discussion says enough. If you just search google for it, you can find various different things.

Yeah, but the V8 Impala, although it might be a fun car to drive, is still a pathetic W body that looks like a fat Cobalt 4dr. Great, they stuck in a V8. That is it.

The Impala needs to return as RWD. FWD is just plain wrong.

Kat brings up some good points. Cadillac and Lincoln both lack a true car to drag the S and 7 series buyers over to GM or Ford.

I know, GM should come up with a new platform, but that is megabucks too. Maybe that is the way to go, the Statesman is a dated platform too. Start a world class RWD "D" body platform, Based around the LS V8's, designed by Cadillac, and variants of it (a real "B" and "C" body again) for Pontiac, Buick, Holden and even Chevy. Base it around AWD as an option.

This platform could signal the return of GM to a serious 4dr sedan that does it all right. Listen to what the critics whine about. Fix it. Like the LS V8, do it right, no comprimises. Those engineering $$ will go a long way, 8-12 years if they do it right. Yes, the FW would end up costing $50K+ to help recoup some of the design costs, but honestly, it should be a truely killer car.

Do I have too much faith in GM?

ULS, that name would be a foolish name to send into production. ULS, Universal License System. (fcc.gov) No car name should ever start with a U. FTS, yes, I can see that. 12? No, not unless it has something to really back it up. 16? Maybe, if there is a 16. Aim at Maybach. But sales are international, and low. And uber high prices and profit margins.

I feel that if GM could get a "ULS" car out there and have trims from $60K to $90K, they could make it work. It would need a lot of marketing. The market of people who can afford these luxo cruisers is not that large. (I don't know about you, I am sick of seeing so many people get into soooooo much debt for houses and cars. The house prices are so inflated it isn't funny. People just see the short term and are willing to live within inches of being in bankruptcy. Even cars. It isn't how much the car costs, it is how much it is monthly. And people are starting to take notice with the fuel prices. I was looking at 454 Burbs, and the ones I saw for sale 1-2 months ago, still are, prices aren't really changing, but not really selling well either. Before they got snapped up pretty fast. People are starting to look at fuel economy. Me? I like the new cars, but I am not going to that much debt. We are climbing out of enough of it and have no credit cards anymore and only some medical bills and the house/utilities left. It feels good to get out from under it all!! And to pay cash for a car, not credit!)

On the fuel economy note...
You know, it would be slick to make it L92 AWD powered and hybrid (based off the Silverado brids w/DOD) out of the chute. Seeing a killer car like a FTS with 0-60 in under 6 seconds with 30-35 mpg could be what the market really needs!

Probably.
I think the problem is that enthusiasts like us always want car companies to do things that make little business sense. Yeah, I know, some companies manage to do it but that's usually due to their being able to capitalize on another previously released car that can lend chassis parts to speed things along. This is the case with Chrysler these days. All these great "performance" cars are all getting belted out on the coat-tails of the popularity of the 300C.

Let's not forget the fact they're putting the same engine into everything they're building these days, just for marketing purposes.

No, if Cadillac wants to make a top-line luxury car, you've gotta do it like they did back in the day - don't share it with the rest of GM, make it a Cadillac and a Cadillac ONLY.
The '76 Seville is a terrible car to remember. Yippee, a Caprice with a Cadillac badge. At that point, every GM brand made a car with the Caprice chassis/body. Cheapened the brand tremendously if you ask me That lead straight to the Cimarron...

The roofline and rear quarters are part of the unibody, so it would be a big redesign for the Statesman chassis. Ever notice how the Olds Intrigue, and Pontiac Grand Am look pretty much the same from the doors back? Same unibody. Saves money.

The reason why the current Deville doesn't look good stretched is that the hood and trunk are too short. Look at the '68-'76 cars. The Deville looks so sleek. Almost 19' long, but with that hood and trunk it looks right. Add the extra length for the Fleetwood and more for the Fleetwood 75 and it still looks good because the proportions are still good. Cad forward design is great for an economy car where space is at a premium, but this is a Cadillac so let's take up some space!

For the engine, a LS2 *would* kick @$$, or an LS7 for a hopped up version, but I'd rather see a Cadillac engine. Northstar is too small, but maybe a development on it incorporating some LS architecture as well. DOHC, variable valve timing, variable intake and exhaust, cylinder deactivation, limp-home capability, the works. Make it an 8 or a 16. We're Americans, 8's are our trademark, and Cadillac has history with the 16, leave the 12's for europe. Borrowing an LS engine might work to begin with, but it is still a borrowed engine. Mercedes doesn't borrow engines for their S-class, they design a world class engine for the car. If Cadillac wants to play, they're going to have to be armed accordingly.

I don't think a DOHC engine is the way to go. A big vehicle like a Fleetwood needs a great Cadillac pushrod motor. Cadillac needs it's own LS7. Lot's of low-end torque, just like the old Caddy big blocks.

Ok folks, this is how I see the return of the fleetwood. Right now with the baby bommer's getting on in years Cadillac needs a big road car. They need to bring back the chrome vertical tail lamps, huge grille, squared off sedan and coupe. I also think its time for the return of the fender skirt, wire wheels, opera lamps and white walls. It amazes me that people get in my Brougham and say this is huge and so comfortable. I say this is what cars should be like. I am one who likes to zip around in a sports cars as much as the next guy but when on the open road i want a smooth quiet ride with some power to spare. I would love to tow my boat with a big sedan that can handle the extra weight and keep me total comfort. I can't get that from my SUV. As I have been on this forum I am amazed at the age range of the members. So I am thinking that we have all ages and people from different walks of life who want a car like this. I remeber when they started taking chrome off the cars because the magazines liked the mono look. What is happening now? Everyone is ordering chorme wheels, grills and such. Fleetwood's return is now!!! Ok enough for my soapbox. HAPPY NEW YEAR TO ALL!!

You put it into a good perspective. The ultimate success of this car is marketing. If people hear Cadillac is building an all new big boy with their own engine a RWD platform and it's going to be a RETRO, meaning chrome, opera lamps, skirts, etc. Retros people, that's what the big booms are in the American companies, Ford's Mustang, Dodge's Challanger, Cadillac's Fleetwood. It needs to have corners, not look like a warped STS, and has to be huge, I mean long dammit. If this car is to be built it needs to be built right. They should take a gamble and go all in on this one.

Heres my opinion of what the next Fleetwood (Brougham) should be:

-Massive (atleast 215" long)
- RWD standard, AWD optional
- Standard large pushrod V8 (LS6 5.7, what other options are there?)
- Optional motor, maybe larger pushrod, maybe DOHC design (S/C N*?)
- atleast 350hp & 400 lb/ft
- Body on Frame Construction (suv/truck chassis??)
- full instumentation (FINALLY!)
- 6 passenger seating optional ( 4 place seating would be cool too)
- 5 passenger seating standard
- floor shift/center console
- top of the line materials (no cheap plastics!!)
- adaptive suspension (Soft/medium/sport)
- this should handle more like a 7 Series than a Town Car
- all of the neat features that the 93-96 FWB's had ( rear vanity mirrors, etc)
- prominent grille and headlights (traditional Cadillac styling, NOT Art & Science)
- very prominent traditional exterior design (think 1992 Brougham, but updated slightly for 2000's)
- heavy duty driveline
- 7000 lb towing capacity
- tons of chrome/ leather/ wood trim!

A few thoughts from me on this subject.. Wasn't the DeVille and Fleetwood basically the same for a long, long time? The 70s and early 80s - weren't they basically the same size? Almost identical vehicles?

During the 80s and 90s, the Fleetwood's weren't the "top of the line" vehicles. They were the biggest and most comfortable.. A new Fleetwood shouldn't be extremely expensive or even the most expensive. Let the Cadillac Sixteen or the ULS or whatever they decide to call it be the $100,000+ vehicle in the lineup. The Fleetwood should be affordable luxury like the Lincoln Town Car.

If "Fleetwood" or "Brougham" are bad names for this day and age, call it the DTS. Make it rear wheel drive, big, comfortable, soft-riding and stable on the road. It doesn't have to be the "Uber" Cadillac. It just need to be a Cadillac. We don't have one anymore...

Right on! The truck frame is a touch heavy, but good on stiffness.

Heres my opinion of what the next Fleetwood (Brougham) should be:

-Massive (atleast 215" long)
- RWD standard, AWD optional
- Standard large pushrod V8 (LS6 5.7, what other options are there?)
- Optional motor, maybe larger pushrod, maybe DOHC design (S/C N*?)
- atleast 350hp & 400 lb/ft
- Body on Frame Construction (suv/truck chassis??)
- full instumentation (FINALLY!)
- 6 passenger seating optional ( 4 place seating would be cool too)
- 5 passenger seating standard
- floor shift/center console
- top of the line materials (no cheap plastics!!)
- adaptive suspension (Soft/medium/sport)
- this should handle more like a 7 Series than a Town Car
- all of the neat features that the 93-96 FWB's had ( rear vanity mirrors, etc)
- prominent grille and headlights (traditional Cadillac styling, NOT Art & Science)
- very prominent traditional exterior design (think 1992 Brougham, but updated slightly for 2000's)
- heavy duty driveline
- 7000 lb towing capacity
- tons of chrome/ leather/ wood trim!

Right on! The truck frame is a touch heavy, but good on stiffness.

I would be looking at a LS7 block and heads with a milder cam to bolster low end torque. Displacement is key to abundance of LOW rpm torque for best drivability. But this is Cadillac, stroke it to 429 CID....

You know, exlusivity is important to Cadillac. GM was working hard on a 455 V10 based on the LS block. This would IDEAL to put the Fleetwood in a position to compete with the VW Phaeton W12 AWD, the S600 4Motion and the 750iL and the 2door version (while we are bench designing here) to go up on the SL600 4Motion and the 850i.

Heres my opinion of what the next Fleetwood (Brougham) should be:

-Massive (atleast 215" long)
- RWD standard, AWD optional
- Standard large pushrod V8 (LS6 5.7, what other options are there?)
- Optional motor, maybe larger pushrod, maybe DOHC design (S/C N*?)
- atleast 350hp & 400 lb/ft
- Body on Frame Construction (suv/truck chassis??)
- full instumentation (FINALLY!)
- 6 passenger seating optional ( 4 place seating would be cool too)
- 5 passenger seating standard
- floor shift/center console
- top of the line materials (no cheap plastics!!)
- adaptive suspension (Soft/medium/sport)
- this should handle more like a 7 Series than a Town Car
- all of the neat features that the 93-96 FWB's had ( rear vanity mirrors, etc)
- prominent grille and headlights (traditional Cadillac styling, NOT Art & Science)
- very prominent traditional exterior design (think 1992 Brougham, but updated slightly for 2000's)
- heavy duty driveline
- 7000 lb towing capacity
- tons of chrome/ leather/ wood trim!

oooh yeah a Fleetwood Coupe would be great too! Something to compete with a M-B CL600 or something a little bigger than a BMW 6 Series.

I agree. Can't have a Chebby motor though, has to have a Cadillac engine. And an absolute MUST, chrome tailights, cough cough 80-92!

Yeah I agree about the "cadillac exclusive" motor, but where are we gonna get a pushrod V8? GM would have to make an entirely new motor.

They have 30-some billion in cash lying around, I think they can find the resources!

Heres my opinion of what the next Fleetwood (Brougham) should be:

-Massive (atleast 215" long)
- RWD standard, AWD optional
- Standard large pushrod V8 (LS6 5.7, what other options are there?)
- Optional motor, maybe larger pushrod, maybe DOHC design (S/C N*?)
- atleast 350hp & 400 lb/ft
- Body on Frame Construction (suv/truck chassis??)
- full instumentation (FINALLY!)
- 6 passenger seating optional ( 4 place seating would be cool too)
- 5 passenger seating standard
- floor shift/center console
- top of the line materials (no cheap plastics!!)
- adaptive suspension (Soft/medium/sport)
- this should handle more like a 7 Series than a Town Car
- all of the neat features that the 93-96 FWB's had ( rear vanity mirrors, etc)
- prominent grille and headlights (traditional Cadillac styling, NOT Art & Science)
- very prominent traditional exterior design (think 1992 Brougham, but updated slightly for 2000's)
- heavy duty driveline
- 7000 lb towing capacity
- tons of chrome/ leather/ wood trim!

i agree with all that except the size... needs to be longer! atleast 225.1" is what th minimum should be.

That's the exact length of a 93-96, right? I think that's a good size!:highfive:

Ok folks, this is how I see the return of the fleetwood. Right now with the baby bommer's getting on in years Cadillac needs a big road car. They need to bring back the chrome vertical tail lamps, huge grille, squared off sedan and coupe. I also think its time for the return of the fender skirt, wire wheels, opera lamps and white walls. It amazes me that people get in my Brougham and say this is huge and so comfortable. I say this is what cars should be like. I am one who likes to zip around in a sports cars as much as the next guy but when on the open road i want a smooth quiet ride with some power to spare. I would love to tow my boat with a big sedan that can handle the extra weight and keep me total comfort. I can't get that from my SUV. As I have been on this forum I am amazed at the age range of the members. So I am thinking that we have all ages and people from different walks of life who want a car like this. I remeber when they started taking chrome off the cars because the magazines liked the mono look. What is happening now? Everyone is ordering chorme wheels, grills and such. Fleetwood's return is now!!! Ok enough for my soapbox. HAPPY NEW YEAR TO ALL!!

Helll yeah! thats what I'm sayen!! I'm 16 years old and ever sice I was born the only real car in my eyes was a full size Cadillac, (and don't say I got it from my parents because neather of them had ever bought Cadillacs untill about three years ago when I announced that I could nolonger live without one, so they bought a '96 Deville as the family car) anyway, right now I own a '83 Coupe Deville and a '90 Brougham d'Elegance and I will never again be without a Cadillac. I vaugly remember a time when one could go to their local Cadillac dealer and order a brand new REAL Cadilac... it was an amazing time.

But on the flip side, nomatter how sad it is, for the last 15 years, new Cadillacs have been known as "granny rides" due to the big boaty american luxury feel, like I have a friend who is 17 years old and he thinks that the worst most ugly "granny ride" car ever made way the '93-'96 FWB. I told him he could go F*** himself, but theirs still a lot of people who feel that way about caddys, and thats why theres no Fleetwood, that and the fact that the Escalade replaced it and is now the flagship Cadillac (which is totaly rong)

But still anybody that is into pop culture at all cannot deny that Cadillac is an icon. Like did anybody notice that all trough the '90s and even today there have been countless rap/ hip hop tracks about or including Old School Cadillacs as a vital part of the culture? and that they almost always are eather Escalades or '84 and back big body Coupes? And that Snoop Dogg himself was quoted saying that theres nothing like a Cadillac?(and he really owns about twenty) Theres just something that screams "playa" about your car being 20 feet long and having the style and class to pull it off. Thats why if they re-interduce the fleetwood it needs to be done right, it needs to look old school and it needs to have chrome out the a**. their going to have to build it to fit everything from 13"wires and hydros to 22" spinnas if they don't want it to become stuck forever as a strictly old peoples car. that being said, lets bring our old school Cadillacs back!:bouncy:

I can say the V4P cars are NOT granny ridding! Not floaty, not soft. Much firmer than my 1991 Sedan DeVille. Much firmer than my 1991 Bonneville.
Not quite as bad as my 1980 Turbo T/A with F41 (non WS6), but closer to that than the 91 C&H ("sugar") cars....

Ok, anyone handy with Photoshop, get some pictures of the Statesman or start from scratch and make up what you think the 2008 Fleetwood/FTS should look like!

In a perfect world, a new Fleetwood would have the best of everything and a unique engine. Problem is, GM is not prepared for either of those so either they bring out a half-hearted attempt, or do nothing at all. IMO, they should do nothing unless they CAN do the name justice. Fleetwood was always the "ultimate" Cadillac. We should expect nothing less if it were to rise from the ashes.

Just make it big and have it ride like a Lexus LS430 or Mercedes S-Class and I'll be very happy.

Yeah I think the Fleetwood should always be the longest car on the market.
It always was, except from 1972-1979, when the Town Car was around 234" long, and the Imperial Lebaron was 235" long. The Fleetwoods never got longer than about 231" IIRC.
The longest "regular"car on the market right now is the Town Car Signature L, its 221" long.
The longest car overall on sale right now is the Maybach 62, at 242.5" long!

Is it possible that the last Fleetwoods were just too long for the average luxury car buyer nowadays? Nowadays, cars just arent as big, and maybe most people just dont want a gigantic car like that.

But theres nothing with the presence of a black Fleetwood Brougham!!

[quote=N0DIH]I can say the V4P cars are NOT granny ridding! Not floaty, not soft. Much firmer than my 1991 Sedan DeVille. Much firmer than my 1991 Bonneville.
Not quite as bad as my 1980 Turbo T/A with F41 (non WS6), but closer to that than the 91 C&H ("sugar") cars....[quote]
I diden't say it was, thats just what a lot of people think, I am in no way one of them.

That's the exact length of a 93-96, right? I think that's a good size!:highfive:

:yup: :highfive: :thumbsup:

i would love to see the return of the Fleetwood, with everything a fully loaded STS has and more (if there is any more). the V engine what is it now the LS2? yeah the LS 2 and everything (no wheel hop problems though...). 225.1 inches long, full and complete luxury all around and power to boot. start where they left off. oh fender skirts are a must, it wouldnt be a Fleetwood without them. and lots and lots of chrome.

I can say the V4P cars are NOT granny ridding! Not floaty, not soft. Much firmer than my 1991 Sedan DeVille. Much firmer than my 1991 Bonneville.
Not quite as bad as my 1980 Turbo T/A with F41 (non WS6), but closer to that than the 91 C&H ("sugar") cars....

I diden't say it was, thats just what a lot of people think, I am in no way one of them.

Sorry, I was just echoing what you were saying. Being I have a V4P car, I happen to love the on the road stability of it. It drives great down the straightaway firm, stable, but in a higher speed corner, it leans like the Titanic.

Whats the difference between the Cadillac V4P and the Buick V92 package?

I really think they should staart with a V-10 HO give it RWD optional AWD. Offer smaller DOD V8 for those who want it. The interior should be cloth base with D'elegant style leather seats for the upgrade. Body on frame construction. Make it a 6 seater. Standard Dual exhaust running from factory equipped headers. Equip it with Electronic stability Control but make it user controlled. Must have a heavy duty towing suspension.Use updated grill based on 90-92 vertical bar styling. Make it sophisticated without losing it's classic cues. Full digital but have analog clock in chrome surround. 18" rims as standard. More thoughts to follow.

I know the V4P trans is beefier, large acumlulators and such, and it has 3.42 gears where the V92 was only 3.08's. I think the rest is the same.

Trans programming likely different too.

Whats the difference between the Cadillac V4P and the Buick V92 package?

This is a great thread, with a lotta great thoughts....

I hate to burst the bubble, but they already have a huge luxury vehicle, based on a platform that sells 100's of thousands of units per year across the divisions.... it's called an Escalade.

It's infinitely easier to redo the suspension & interior of an existing vehicle than to start from scratch....

Plus, for a company, you get some great tax advantages on a big SUV... it qualifies for certain deductions.

I fear the market size for a new Fleetwood would be kinda small....

Also, I'm sure they'd want to call it a "FTS" or something... god forbid cars have names anymore....

-----Here is my official response from Cadillac-----

Dear Mr. Martin,

Thank you for contacting the Cadillac Customer Assistance Center. I appreciate your interest in the design of our vehicles.

We value you as a customer, as well as your design views. We are interested in your views and appreciate it when customers like you take the time to write to us about their ideas, as this is one way that we can better determine the need of our customers. For this reason, we do value the opinions of our customers and we always consider them as we plan for future models.

Cadillac understands that of all the factors involved in customer satisfaction, quality is of primary concern. We construct our vehicles to meet or exceed all federal safety and crash regulations. The quality and workmanship instilled in our vehicles are what make us a leader in the industry. We also realize the value of customer input in our commitment to the continuous improvement of our products and services.

Please visit www.gmideas.com for information on how to formally submit an idea for consideration by General Motors. For your convenience, I have added the link below;

www.gmideas.com/gmideas/newTechnologyIdea.jsp

You may also visit the www.gm.com website. Select Innovations in the middle column under the heading Automotive, then select New Devices.

I recommend that you also submit any ideas you may have in writing to the following address:

New Devices Section
General Motors Corporation
585 South Blvd
MC 483-585-336
Pontiac, Michigan 48341

I have placed your email and our reply in our database under Service Request #1-384492121. Please refer to that number in any communication for this matter.

If you should need to contact us in the future, please e-mail us again or call our Cadillac Customer Assistance Center at 1-800-458-8006. For your convenience, Customer Relationship Managers are available 24 hours a day, 7 days a week.

Again, thank you for taking the time to write to Cadillac. Again, I appreciate your feedback, as your views are very important to us.

Have a great day!

Sincerely,

Chantal Patten
Customer Relationship Manager
Cadillac Customer Assistance Center


#Subject=Cadillac Other Owner Assistance

-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: 12/30/05 3:20:05 AM
To: assist@cadillac.com
Subject: Cadillac Other Owner Assistance


------------------------------------------------------------

What is the Nature
of your concern? : Other

Message : Please pass this on to Desgin Engineering.

I would love to see the Fleetwood return
to the Cadillac lineup. Ok, nuts you
say? The Fleetwood has been for many
many years been the flagship of the
Cadillac lineup.

I was looking at the Holden Statesman,
and feel that this would be an ideal
platform to resurrect the Fleetwood.
Stretch it, maintain V8 power, I highly
recommend the new L92 V8. And the
Holden AWD drivetrain that is used in
the Aussie El Camino, the Crewman Cross
8, which is decent length already (5.3M,
a bit short for a Fleetwood, but getting
close) and is already a stable V8
RWD/AWD platforum.

Please visit CadillacForums.com, at
<http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=61443>
to see the thoughts we have dreamed up.
I feel that there is some merit there,
and that if Cadillac management would
take a serious look, there is a lot
potential for the Fleetwood to come back
and dent the market of the BMW 740iL and
the MBenz S430/S500 4Motion.

I appologize in advance to the Escalade owners, I am not flaming them, as much as I want one myself (gotta be an ESV, but really needs an 8100....), it is still an overpriced Chevy Truck. It is a far cry from what most big Caddy lovers want. I can say my parents would never part with the 97 Deville for one, just not their style. And I would bet a lot of other people feel the same.

Don't get me wrong, the lade is a slick ride. Would love to trade in my house and my Suburban to afford one.... That is the problem. Too bloody expensive.

This is a great thread, with a lotta great thoughts....

I hate to burst the bubble, but they already have a huge luxury vehicle, based on a platform that sells 100's of thousands of units per year across the divisions.... it's called an Escalade.

It's infinitely easier to redo the suspension & interior of an existing vehicle than to start from scratch....

Plus, for a company, you get some great tax advantages on a big SUV... it qualifies for certain deductions.

I fear the market size for a new Fleetwood would be kinda small....

Also, I'm sure they'd want to call it a "FTS" or something... god forbid cars have names anymore....

Hate to say it more than anyone can beleive but Ford has the idea that works where GM once had these ideas. Lincoln town car large RWD luxury car with a name the still means something unline "dts cts" and such. Also has the Crown vic for taxi and police work Another RWD boat that does the job well and is no competition for the new Impalas. I do not know why GM discontinued the fleetwood and caprice instead of redesigning them. Ford made them work why cant't the general?? No wonder GM is hurting.
Too bad fords fall apart after 100k miles.

GM quit the B & D bodies to use their factory's to make the full size trucks, which made sense at the time, because they had such a large segment of the market, but in retrospect, they should have kept the B & D bodies.

I agree, Only so many of us (myself not included) can afford buy a suv that cost $50,000. I bought a building for $50,000 last year.

Here's my PITA laptop-mouse chop of a new Fleetwood Brougham. Somebody put a landau top on this thing with bigger rims and I'm good to go. :D

That appears to be a small truck.

Hi,
It's pretty clear that GM has put its eggs in the baskets of the DTS and the Escalade for large vehicles.
The idea of a Holden re-design sounds interesting although Cadillac tried a quick restyling before with the frumpy 1993-96 Fleetwood which, despite its current interest among enthusiasts for its Corvette V8, didn't have any excitement in the luxury market when new except with an ever dwindling number of graying buyers.
Lincoln certainly was smart to keep the Town Car as up to date as possible and sell high fancy and low technology and they make good profits on each one. The market is shrinking for this type of car as younger buyers appreciate high performance, excellent handling, and supreme quality of Lexus and BMW. Since the Lincoln brand is not exactly on fire with the Town Car I can't imagine a Holden based Fleetwood doing anything to enhance the image that Cadillac is working so hard to create.
Let's hope the next DTS is rear drive with an awesome V8 and has actual styling that makes our hearts pound and has us pressing our noses against the showroom windows of our local Cadillac dealerships wishing for the day when we'll be looking out from behind the wheel and making our grand arrival at the country club valet line with the glances of envious folks who wish it was them in that drop dead cool car!
I don't think we're there yet although there is still hope! Cross your fingers and hope Cadillac honestly gets it right with a genuinely good product, not a quicky like the GTO.
Here is a link to the top-of-the-line Holden Caprice:
http://www.holden.com.au/www-holden/action/modeloverview?modelid=8000
Dave

Wow nicely put dave!

Why did the Town Cars sell like 110k units a year, and the Fleetwoods only managed like 25-30k?

Hi,

My opinion only, and I apologize if this offends anyone since it's not intended to, I feel the large 1993 Fleetwood was almost a cartoon of a Cadillac from a bygone era in a time when the market was shifting quickly to a different kind of luxury, i.e. Lexus, BMW, Mercedes-Benz.

Lincoln kept their product up to date with a successful redesign of the Town Car in 1990. That model had really nice modern styling of the classic which we all recognize. No vinyl top from the factory was available and nice looking alloy wheels became standard. The 1998 restyle was a little controversial yet it was also unique with its art deco styling and buyers kept on buying. They freshened the car in 2003 and it's now big and boring yet still seems to fit in as a contemporary car and people love it! Cheap luxury for the masses!

I don't think the Cadillac image would survive with a model like the Town Car since Cadillac is truly trying to compete in the real market for the long run. The days of big luxury on the cheap are over.

My 3 cents.

Dave

hmmm very interesting... I think if Cadillac brings back the Fleetwood, it should compete with the S Class/ 7 Series and A8. Because if they brought it back as it was, it would face a very narrow market share, not many would pay $50,000 for that when the could pay the same amount for a M45 or GS430. But if you made it with a V-10 or V-12 possibly, and put everything in it, and sold it for $75,000 then I think it would work.

Speaking of $75,000 Cadillacs, how is that XLR selling?

Hi,

I agree, Cad needs a true full-size competitor to build the brand. The XLR is a pretty cool concept and much more marketable than the Allante in my opinion. It's a bit flashy which is why it may not have as much market appeal as the competition. I do see them frequently in Florida and I think they look hot! Certainly more distinctive than the MB SL.

Dave

One more thing, the name Fleetwood used to mean something magnificent. In my mind, the last real Fleetwood was made in 1940. 1941 was the beginning of mass production and the every day Fleetwood. By the end of the Fleetwood era in 1996, it was just a name on a dowdy car. I think Cadillac needs to let it cool off before ever bringing it back. It's time to look ahead.

It would be fun for all of us to get together and draw up our dream Cadillac and submit our idea to GM. I bet we could create a concept that would knock their socks off!

I like the name Fleetwood, but Brougham just sounds so imposing.
BROUGHAM!!!!

I agree totally! However, we have to remember that Cadillac sure as hell isn't the only brand to use either the name "Fleetwood" or "Brougham" when naming their vehicles. It would sure sound nice to hear it, but I'm sure Cadillac would chose to keep with the 3-letter naming system they have now. In that case, call it the FTS. Cadillac shouldn't build this car to sell well, it should build this car because Cadillac needs a figurehead vehicle. It doesn't sell any XLRs but they still build them, right?

Cadillac simply needs this vehicle, because, let's face it, a DeVille or an Escalade, neither are true "Cadillac of Cadillacs." They dont need to sell hundreds of thousands or even make a dime off of each on they sell, they just need a full-size RWD sedan with a large, torque-in-mind engine, loaded with a beautiful interior, rides like a dream, and finally gives the Germans a run for their money. It will need several classes or levels, with different engines and trim packages. It MUST!!!!! have a very powerful, possibly forced induction V-12 in the highest trim level, and it MUST!!!!! have the highest quality and best design of a vehicle Cadillac has yet built.

The Escalade was not a replacement for the Fleetwood, it was another model Cadillac began building after the Fleetwood died.

Hi,

At my age I feel the name Brougham is naked on a Cadillac without the Fleetwood in front of it. I gave up on Cadillac around 7th grade, 1981, when Rolls-Royce introduced the new Silver Spirit/Silver Spur and Mercedes-Benz introduced the new S-Class. Suddenly, the Europeans had cars that caught my attention and I've been interested in them ever since. Cadillac is only now starting to get my attention again with the neat CTS and the much improved DTS. I still don't think I'm ready to say I'd own a new Cadillac yet.

D

Other than the few short years that Cadillac used the name "Brougham" on it's own due to the FWD/RWD model confusion, I've never heard of it it's use as a distinct model name. Hell, the word has been used by a number of different cars to designate an up-fitted version of the particular model. IMO, the name "Brougham" should NOT be used again by itself to designate a model.

Hi Kat,

I agree. We had Marquis Brougham, Bonneville Brougham, New Yorker Brougham, Caprice Classic Brougham, 98 Regency Brougham, LTD Brougham (am I imagining that one?!), Delta 88 Royale Brougham, Parisienne Brougham, Cutlass (Ciera, Supreme) Brougham, and of course, Fleetwood Brougham and just plain old Brougham. Missing any? That's a ton of Broughams models! No one uses it today that I can think of.

Caddy could totally do a bit of a retro large car along the lines of what they are doing today yet with some of the classic elements that made these cars so special through the years such as interiors that capture the feel of fine furniture and some tastefully done exterior styling and accents that look and feel luxurious. I am really tired of European understated, meaning German and imitation German. Cadillac is trying to make their cars along these lines yet add what they think are Cadillac styling cues. I still don't get it and think the cars look sort of cheap next to the European cars which have been doing their thing all along.

Personally I have really started to love the British cars like Jaguar XJ and XK, Rolls-Royce, Bentley, plus the Italian Maserati Quattroporte. All of these cars have kept the elements that made them classic and adapted them to the real world market of today. I hope Cadillac can pull it off. I want to get excited about Cadillac's new products again. There is not one current Cadillac model that I'd be excited about having in my garage.

D

Hi Kat,


Personally I have really started to love the British cars like Jaguar XJ and XK, Rolls-Royce, Bentley, plus the Italian Maserati Quattroporte. All of these cars have kept the elements that made them classic and adapted them to the real world market of today. I hope Cadillac can pull it off. I want to get excited about Cadillac's new products again. There is not one current Cadillac model that I'd be excited about having in my garage.

D

This is exactly how I feel. If I had to buy a new car right now it would be a Jaguar XJ, as it is the model out there that I think has kept best to its classic look. Indeed, it has had practically the same design since 1968 Series 1 or so, just with changes to headlights, taillights etc. Indeed, the XJ, despite a long reputation for unreliability, continues to sell well, and I'll bet it's largely because of its classic appearance.

Cadillac should try to do the same thing, an updated classic, priced to compete. Though I'd miss the classic suspension, it'd need a firmer suspension with better handling, and obviously a much more powerful engine.

Alright, here's a little research on what this new Cadillac would have to beat. It's a 2003 760Li Beemer, but it's a very good example of just what they have to do. Take a look at that back seat, please tell me "The Standard of The World" can build something that at least rivals that!

http://www.thecarconnection.com/Vehicle_Reviews/Luxury_Cars/2003_BMW_760Li.S183.A5598.html

picture the Sixteen with a longer trunk, shorter hood and a v-12 (and V-8 option), you got yourself a brand new Fleetwood that everyone who loves real Cadillacs will love.

I think Cadillac should build a new Fleetwood with styling cues from the Sixteen concept. The 16 looks like a REAL Cadillac nothing else in the line up does. If they plan on making the $100 + Sixteen then they should make A Fleetwood that has the styling cues ( with a longer trunk) but is more reasonably priced. If they don't make the 16 then they should make it a Fleetwood and put a V-12 in it. They really need to make 1 car atleast for people who like traditional Cadillacs. For them to forget about us and just go for German car buyers is ignorant. The reason that towncars sell so well is because they'res no new Fleetwood to buy.

...but the Fleetwood has always been a stretched DeVille, not a whole different vehicle.
No. Not always.

My idea of buying a new Cadillac is to buy a '96 FWB because thats the last Cadillac ever made.

however I do really like the styling on the new Devilles (thats right I said Deville... not DTS. Because really, its a friggin Deville with a body kit)

Hi,

I have to admit that the new DTS is getting it right. It's not perfect, but getting there!

D

Heres a couple DTS based Fleetwood ideas I think look tight, feel free to hate, kiss my ring, whatever you see fit:bigroll:

Stock DTS
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c40/Cadillac_guy/e303_300M.jpg
FTS VERSION 1
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c40/Cadillac_guy/Fleetwoodv1.jpg
FTS VERSION 2
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c40/Cadillac_guy/Fleetwoodv2.jpg
FTC!!! God I'd kill for this:worship:
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c40/Cadillac_guy/Fleetwoodv3.jpg

Like I said, just a few ideas, not perfect.

OMG!! Those are so cool. Great job. I would like to see a padded landau roof on the coupe which is gorgous. Maybe opera lamps. Great Great job!!:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

I like the C pillars and wheel skirts, but I would not round off the front end so much. Make it more bold, square and proud just like your 1990!

lol thanks guys, I was thinking about a landau roof but I can't do it on roxio, which is the only thing I have to do pics with. I might try opera lamps, that would be cool.

A new front would be cool, but I just streched a DTS, so thats the stock DTS front, I might do more later. also I was thinking of doing something with the rims, maby some off the escalade special edition, or some '05 chrome Deville rims wrapped in vouges?

gotta have rims like the ones they had on the 1990-92 Broughams whether it be the wire wheels or the wire wheel hub caps!

I'll work on that and get back with you, that would look tight.

and I would straighten out the rear..make it proud and american!

I think this is more what your thinking? stand up front, old school wires and whites, landau top(its rough but its there), and opera lamps. I made it before I saw your post about the rear, but I think its still pretty cool. the front looks a little chunky to me, but theres not much I can do with Roxio, its nothing like photoshop.
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c40/Cadillac_guy/Fleetwoodv5.jpg

yeah, I like the rims, but the car needs to look longer. (IMO) It looks like a 93-96 FWB, when I would like it if it looked more like a '92 Brougham. Long, flat and low!

Just my thoughts though!

Keep going and it's going to turn into a '90 Brougham.

Hi,

I think Cad would do well to make some sort of a more retro car like Chevy is doing with the concept Camaro. I'd love to see classic interior and exterior details of the older cars return. An updated Fleetwood incorporating classic styling elements such as on the 1969-70 Fleetwood, which was long, low and lovely and had so many of the successful bold, clean, and strong 1967 Eldorado cues. The fantasy of Cadillac bringing back a model that looks like a mid-1980's through mid-1990's model will never happen. The styling from that time wasn't exciting back then and will not be loved any better in the future. Cadillac is currently trying to look back while still looking forward yet they need to try harder to get people seriously excited about lusting after owning a new one.

Dave

Boring? This is boring to you??
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c40/Cadillac_guy/FH000002v3.jpg
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c40/Cadillac_guy/000_0176.jpg

Not to me!!!! :D

Heres a couple DTS based Fleetwood ideas I think look tight, feel free to hate, kiss my ring, whatever you see fit:bigroll:

Stock DTS
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c40/Cadillac_guy/e303_300M.jpg
FTS VERSION 1
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c40/Cadillac_guy/Fleetwoodv1.jpg
FTS VERSION 2
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c40/Cadillac_guy/Fleetwoodv2.jpg
FTC!!! God I'd kill for this:worship:
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c40/Cadillac_guy/Fleetwoodv3.jpg

Like I said, just a few ideas, not perfect. YEEEESSSSSS!! Put a roof on version 2 and that will be my siggy pic. Preferrably Black.

Hows this? I wasin't sure if you wanted landau or full so I did both, I hope you like.:)
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c40/Cadillac_guy/Fleetwoodv6.jpg
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c40/Cadillac_guy/Fleetwoodv7.jpg

the full length top looks really nice!

Thanks :)

You guys! That car looks icky! It's just a DTS with skirts and a tacked on vinyl top. You could buy that car right now and you'll see them in Florida with 70+ year old drivers who still think that it's fancy to have all that tacky extra stuff junking up the car.

Cadillac needs exceptional styling on a world class chassis. Their current cars are making progress but still need more work. Vinyl tops, wire wheel covers, cheap looking chrome, tubby styling made worse by fender skirts, etc., are not the answers, but the problems. If you want all the candy there is plenty available on the aftermarket. Cadillac sold a ton of cars with all that stuff back in the 1970's and early 1980's when it was the style but by the late 1980's and ito the 1990's they still had that stuff when buyers were looking for something different. People still have mullets today but that doesn't mean they are in style now. We enjoy our older cars because they are classics but new ones need to be of today.

Using successful elements from the past will help make Cad different from the competition and make us lust after their new cars. It can be done and I'm sure it will be done! Think positive!

Dave

Like Bro-ham told me earlier, Caddy should have done what Lincoln did with their 1990 Town Car, and updated the older model, but do it so it still looks like a Town Car. When Caddy redid the Fleetwood for 1993, it looked basically like a Roadmaster with extensions. Now dont take offence to that, thats just my opinion. It didnt look like a Fleetwood.

thats just my opinion. It didnt look like a Fleetwood.
Yes it did, and that's my opinion.

Hi,

Everyone has an opinion. That's the fun of this forum.

Cadillac put too little too late into the last Fleetwood. Let's hope they don't make the same mistake again.

Dave

I hate to agree on that but the 93-96 really doesn't have a whole lot that differs it from a Roadmaster or Caprice. I love 'em, but they don't. Let's be realistic. If Cadillac really were to redesign the Fleetwood, it would most likely look a lot like the DTS, but a little larger, and a few slight body modifications. I don't want to be pesimistic, but I have the strong feeling that a new Fleetwood really wouldn't be what we're all hoping for. I doubt it'll have chrome tail lights or a vertical grill; just look at the Art and Science method of design. I'm assuming that right now, if it were to be built, it would be a larger RWD DTS with a Chevy engine.

somehow I have to agree with said comment, I think Cadillac would style the next Fleetwood in the Art & Science design school and take away its classical beauty. Personally, I think it should be a modernization of the 1977-92 bodystyle. Long, low and mean!

Naturally I agree with you on that one, but I don't think Cadillac would see things our way. I'd really like to take a look at Cadillac's marketing research and see what the thinking behind the ULS was, and if that's even still in progress.

but I don't think Cadillac would see things our way.

Do you mean how we want Caddy to bring back the Fleetwood like it was pre 1993, or how they'll make it Art and Science?

Hmm, make it longer in the back door area, there is a lot of class added to the FW with the long wheelbase, lower it some, these care NEED to be lowered, the wheels should go INTO the fenders, not stay outside of them all the time. That is something very lost with the FWD cars.

Looks good Ben!


Heres a couple DTS based Fleetwood ideas I think look tight, feel free to hate, kiss my ring, whatever you see fit:bigroll:

Stock DTS
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c40/Cadillac_guy/e303_300M.jpg
FTS VERSION 1
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c40/Cadillac_guy/Fleetwoodv1.jpg
FTS VERSION 2
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c40/Cadillac_guy/Fleetwoodv2.jpg
FTC!!! God I'd kill for this:worship:
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c40/Cadillac_guy/Fleetwoodv3.jpg

Like I said, just a few ideas, not perfect.

Do you mean how we want Caddy to bring back the Fleetwood like it was pre 1993, or how they'll make it Art and Science?

Cadillac won't bring back the Fleetwood the way we want it. When I say the way "we" want it, I'm referring to a Fleetwood that's a definate relative of the vehicle that existed until 1996. Chrome this, wood that, long, sleek, and powerful. Cadillac will bring the Fleetwood back as a glorified DTS.

If they're gonna bring it back as a glorified DTS, then I wouldnt even like it.

Like Bro-ham told me earlier, Caddy should have done what Lincoln did with their 1990 Town Car, and updated the older model, but do it so it still looks like a Town Car. When Caddy redid the Fleetwood for 1993, it looked basically like a Roadmaster with extensions. Now dont take offence to that, thats just my opinion. It didnt look like a Fleetwood.

The fleetwood was greatly improved in 93 from the fleetwood/brougham of the previous 12 years. And the early 80's fleetwoods looked a lot like the other GM big bodys of the 80's but with different tailights. No better than the differences of the 90's big bodies.

There's always been a lot of similarities among the GM cars that share platforms. In the case of the Fleetwood, there's also been a lot of similarities between it and the smaller RWD platforms. It's a money thing really. Is it "possible" to have a new car use a current platform and look nothing like others that use the same platform? Hell yeah. Is it the easiest, cheapest way to go? No. Bottom line, It CAN be done. The real question is, SHOULD it be done? Only GM knows the answer to that. They need to decide whether there's a market for it. I just hope that IF they decide to do one, they do it right. Maybe that's why there isn't one yet. They don't want to do it unless they can do it right.

But there won't be a market for the Fleetwood like there is for, say, a Tahoe, or a G6. If you look at it only from the accoutant's point of view, you should build the car only if it will make money. But that's not the only reason Cadillac should build the Fleetwood, and they know this. Cadillac should build the Fleetwood because the DTS is not a vehicle that belongs on the top of the heap. Cadillac needs the Fleetwood for the name, the image, the prestige. Cadillac needs something like the '59 Eldo. A car that really strikes people and is a true tribute to the name Cadillac.

I dont think they should bring back the Fleetwood as a car that will sell in vast quantitys. I think they should do like they did with the 1957-60 Eldorado Brougham and make it expensive, extremely high quality, rare and very "in demand" kind of like a Maybach or Rolls. Or if not that, they should shoot for the 7-Series and have it be GM's flagship car! :thumbsup:

The fleetwood was greatly improved in 93 from the fleetwood/brougham of the previous 12 years.

How so? I'm not trying to pick on you or anything, but I like to see the opinion of a man who likes the 1993-96 style more. The biggest thing that comes to mind for me is that the 1994-96's had the great LT1 which really made that car a lot more powerful than any of the 1977-92 models.

Hi,

I agree with the thoughts above. The top line Cadillac needs to be at least on par with the 7-series or S-class. Going for Rolls-Royce isn't very realistic at this point since Cadillac hasn't been in the ultra luxury market for about 65 years.

D

Yeah, they tried that with the Eldorado Brougham, but by then, Cadillac had become a mass-produced vehicle. Ignore RR and Bentley, and concentrate on making the 760Li look like an I-Drive filled piece of garbage.

Benzilla, I asked for it, you supplied it, and it has been done. check out the siggy pic.

Going for Rolls-Royce isn't very realistic at this point since Cadillac hasn't been in the ultra luxury market for about 65 years.

Right on Big D! It would be hard for them because people havent seen a Cadillac top $75,000 and thats only been recently.

But there won't be a market for the Fleetwood like there is for, say, a Tahoe, or a G6. If you look at it only from the accoutant's point of view, you should build the car only if it will make money. But that's not the only reason Cadillac should build the Fleetwood, and they know this. Cadillac should build the Fleetwood because the DTS is not a vehicle that belongs on the top of the heap. Cadillac needs the Fleetwood for the name, the image, the prestige. Cadillac needs something like the '59 Eldo. A car that really strikes people and is a true tribute to the name Cadillac.
This is right on!!!!!!!!!! Something that will bring more presige to the Cadillac name! Oh and it should have a coupe and conv. option. Thats my opinon.

Cadillac has never had a Coupe/convert/sedan Fleetwood! This could be awesome!

kinda like If M-B made a convertible S Class in the '90s on the W140 chassis

How so? I'm not trying to pick on you or anything, but I like to see the opinion of a man who likes the 1993-96 style more. The biggest thing that comes to mind for me is that the 1994-96's had the great LT1 which really made that car a lot more powerful than any of the 1977-92 models.

well it has more room on the inside and in the trunk, and most of all I like the way it looks better. Don't get me wrong though I do like the 80-92 Fleetwoods, I'd like to own a 2 door Fleetwood 80-85. I just think they kept that same body style a really long time, and I prefer the 93-96 style over it.

well it has more room on the inside and in the trunk, and most of all I like the way it looks better. Don't get me wrong though I do like the 80-92 Fleetwoods, I'd like to own a 2 door Fleetwood 80-85. I just think they kept that same body style a really long time, and I prefer the 93-96 style over it.

Yeah the 93-96s are gargantuan inside! And the trunks in the 90-92's werent THAT big especially when compared with the Town Car's trunks. I would love to own an 80-85 FWB coupe too, especially if it was a D'elegance. And yeah they did run that bodystyle for an almost unheard of 15 years!

I think Cadillac should throw it's weight into one model of the Fleetwood to start, sort of like they did by releasing the CTS-V first. Once they establish the Fleetwood, release a coupe and possibly a convertable.

I work at a Bentley/RR repair shop and I can say the only true differences between Cadillacs and Bentley/RR's is the price of the parts. The diffrerence in quality and functionality of these parts is not as great as you may think. Im not too familar with the later model Bentley/RR's neither am I with later Cadillacs. However Im sure not much has changed.
Suprisingly Bentley/RR use quite a bit of GM parts on their cars. For instance, they have been using GM automatic transmissions and parts of AC systems in all of their models since the 50's. Most of the price of Bentley/RR's comes from their $500 t-stats $2000 Coil springs, 75$ temp senders and by temp sender i mean a sensor that sits under the bumper and turns on a dash light that says "ICE" for when the temperature is below 0C . Those prices are accurate by the way.
My boss estimated an engine rebuild for a '91 Silver Spur (6.8L) is something like $70k and trust me these engines have just as many problems as all the others... give me a break they dont even use main seals!! So its easy to see where all the money goes.

Bentley/RR's are completely overengineered. However i like them because they are so complex. And all that extra stuff makes for an extra nice ride... but if you dont take care of these cars... like VERY thorough care all the shit breaks and they run and drive like crap. Cadillac could easily put out comparative models for a bit more $, all they have to do as add all of the additional luxuries that Bentley/RR does and they could do it at a much cheaper cost... however Bentley/RR have won the market by going the extra mile and they have been able to continue to price outrageously because everyone knows they have all the bells and whistles and no one else does. Other luxury car companies easily could face a flop if they flat out competed.... they will have to slowly convert to this "Top End" status. It is a very real goal though... bold actions just need to be made.

Hi,

I agree with the thoughts above. The top line Cadillac needs to be at least on par with the 7-series or S-class. Going for Rolls-Royce isn't very realistic at this point since Cadillac hasn't been in the ultra luxury market for about 65 years.

D

Hows this? I wasin't sure if you wanted landau or full so I did both, I hope you like.:)
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c40/Cadillac_guy/Fleetwoodv6.jpg
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c40/Cadillac_guy/Fleetwoodv7.jpg

they look like 96 Devilles and not what a Fleetwood should look like. i think it should more resemble if not be the Sixteen. that is what the Fleetwood should look like. not a DTS. good chops nonetheless.

Hi,
Regarding the talk about Rolls-Royce and Bentley cars above, I agree with JTraik that the repairs are not cheap although in my opinion a good Rolls-Royce or Bentley is far more enjoyable than any luxury car on the road.

Cadillac used to compete with Rolls-Royce until 1941, when the high-line Fleetwood series was decontented to the point of being basically a ritzy model of the basic Cadillac series. Cadillac needs to get back into the game and show that we Americans can build the ultimate car.

Rolls-Royce and Bentley cars, prior to the new German models that are out now, are great simply because they have lots of loving put into them. The best leathers, best paint, best woodwork. Like any exotic type car that is made is made in very low numbers, the service work needs to be done by the book otherwise the cars turn into garbage. A properly kept Rolls-Royce or Bentley will always be a joy to its owner.

I own a 1984 Rolls-Royce Silver Spirit. This car is nearly cosmetically and mechanically identical to all the sedan models made by RR from 1981-1999. My particular car has been sold and serviced by the same Rolls-Royce dealer since new. I pulled out the service file, which is over an inch thick, and I've spent more money on servicing the car than many people spend on buying their cars, which makes me wonder if I'm nuts! For example, my 9/05 service bill was $6,009.38. In 3/05 I had a bill for $5,879.93. $1,869.10 in 8/04. $10,012.08 in 7/04. $3,347.69 in 11/03. And so on and so on! I must be on drugs! I totally love the car and it is a national RR Club winner and I've felt it's worth keeping the car nice and I do drive the wheels off of it.

FYI, as mentioned by JTraik above, I have had the thermostat replaced (part UE36600, $40.20), both front springs replaced (part RH13387, $257.38 each), and, I had a brand new rear main seal replaced (part UE44273, $141.58). The labor is what makes these projects costly, not so much the parts. To replace the springs requires special spring compressor tools from RR. The rear main seal requires removing the transmission. By the way, my car has a rear main seal!

I find it interesting that JTraik says this: "My boss estimated an engine rebuild for a '91 Silver Spur (6.8L) is something like $70k and trust me these engines have just as many problems as all the others." FYI, the RR dealer who services my car is currently REPLACING the engine in a 1986 RR Corniche (which is the same engine as a '91 Silver Spur referenced above) for an insurance repair and the cost of a brand new engine from the factory for that car, including installation, is $25k. I guess it is possible a rebuild could be costly although why spend $70k, nearly 3 times the cost of a new engine, if a new one is only $25k?

I still like my old Cads although I'll always choose to roll up to the Ritz Carlton in the RR.

Here's a pic of the old junker. The detailing of the materials used is exquisite especially considering it is a 1984 car. Of course, it was a $100k+ in 1984 when it was new!

I wish Cadillac could do something special rather than make a truck with a car skin over it that is produced in mass quantities. Let's keep hoping for the best!

Dave

Ahh so thats the '84 Silver Spirit you were telling me about!
God, those service bills are insane! You could buy a 1993 Cadillac Sedan deVille with like 75k miles on it for less than some of the service bills :bonkers:

I used to have a customer that had one of those. While my repair bills were quite a bit less than any specialty shop or R/R dealer would've charged, they were still quite high. Parts prices are extremely high but the other problem was that much of my work included custom fabrication to repair rotted panels and carpeting in the trunk. I hated charging what I did but it's not my fault the guy had an old POS Rolls that he wanted to be brought back up to par.

Hi,

To clarify, the crazy money I've spent on the Rolls-Royce has been simply to keep the car maintained properly. Restoring a RR is cost prohibitive.

I brought up the reference to RR because Cadillac needs to make something serious and special in a reincarnation of the Fleetwood. Cadillac hasn't had the true luxury cachet for decades and I feel they truly need to be the standard for the world for our own enjoyment and also for national pride.

Dave

The nice thing about a Cadillac that would compete with Rolls is that the Cadillac would be signficantly cheaper to maintain due to more standardized parts and there would be more knowledgeable technicians.

Hi,

I think Cad doesn't need to aim for Rolls-Royce yet since the ultra luxury market is limited. Again, I brought up RR because the car has an inexplicable presence that Cadillac used to have and needs to recapture again. The measure for Cad needs to be 7-Series, S-Class, and Lexus LS. The new Cadillac needs to be a hair better than these cars. I'm afraid the new Lexus LS that is coming out will be a homerun and the all new S-Class is recapturing the boldness and masculinity of previous generations. Let's hope Cadillac can make a heart pounder someday! At this point I'm convinced they will.

D

I agree with your statement Bro-Ham. I think they need to concentrate on an S Class fighter now, and then later go on and build something to compete with the RR's and Bentleys.

I just hope that Cadillac's beancounters can over come the risk and see the opportunity to polish the Cadillac nameplate by building an S Class fighter.

Hi,

I find it interesting that JTraik says this: "My boss estimated an engine rebuild for a '91 Silver Spur (6.8L) is something like $70k and trust me these engines have just as many problems as all the others." FYI, the RR dealer who services my car is currently REPLACING the engine in a 1986 RR Corniche (which is the same engine as a '91 Silver Spur referenced above) for an insurance repair and the cost of a brand new engine from the factory for that car, including installation, is $25k. I guess it is possible a rebuild could be costly although why spend $70k, nearly 3 times the cost of a new engine, if a new one is only $25k?


Errr forgive me for some reason i had that engine in my head. I meant to say the L6 4.9 Not only are the parts very expensive but the machining that has to be done to them is like no other. Trying to machine these blocks is said to be like trying to machine a block of jello, there is only a few left in the world that can PROPERLY do it.

As for the main seals... i believe it may be an option. The reason for leaving them out is actually for fighting the wet climate of london streets! What better way to keep rust away!

I love my 94 Concours. It, as far as I know, was the most expensive Caddy Sedan in 94, and has more luxury in it than in my mother's 99 S500 Benz. Besides, I'm at 169,000 and she dropped a bearing at 125,000.

I love my 94 Concours. It, as far as I know, was the most expensive Caddy Sedan in 94, and has more luxury in it than in my mother's 99 S500 Benz. Besides, I'm at 169,000 and she dropped a bearing at 125,000.

nope, the STS was $44,890.00 which i believe is about 8k more than the Concourse which was 36k something.

Back on the Stateman.

http://www.holden.com.au/www-holden/action/modeloverview?modelid=7001

They even have a Cadillac styled crest....

My option list:

Step 3 of 3
Your Statesman International
* Recommended Retail Price (RRP) does not include Dealer delivery and Government charges, or fitting and labour costs for accessories. Pricing for alloy wheels excludes tyres. Pricing for body kits and spoilers are for primed parts only.

Statesman International 6L/Automatic
$61,690.00 RRP*
Key Standard Features 260kW, 6.0 litre Generation 4 alloy V8 engine
Sunroof
17" sports alloy wheels
Rear lip spoiler
Sports headlamps and grille
Colour Vespers Mica
No additional cost
Trim Neutral Pewter Cloth
No additional cost
Accessories
NB. Fitting and labour
not included in RRP Mobile phone mounting platform and holder (woodgrain)
$86.10 RRP*
Bluetooth mobile phone kit
$495.00 RRP*
Rear sunshade
$91.85 RRP*
Front sunshade
$363.00 RRP*
Bonnet protector
$99.00 RRP*
Headlamp guards
$79.20 RRP*
Moulded mud flaps front and rear
$67.10 RRP*
Weathershield (standard)
$72.60 RRP*
Weathershield (slimline)
$82.50 RRP*
Sheepskin seat inserts
$341.00 RRP*
Towing mirrors
$39.35 RRP*
Roof bars
$225.50 RRP*
Alloy wheel lock nuts
$51.15 RRP*
License plate frames
$32.45 RRP*
Overhead DVD player kit
$1,749.00 RRP*
Car fridge kit
$1,015.30 RRP*
Boot lip protector
$55.00 RRP*
Boot organiser
$198.00 RRP*

Total price:
$66,833.10 RRP*


I like the car fridge kit....

Seeing the angst at this topic and being the FNG fresh from an "enemy" (Mopar) site, I fully understand where you people are coming from.

I saw the same gut-wrenching frustration as the Michigan State Police tested cars and Dodge sent their specimens into the fray with el cheapo brake fluid which had the fronts CATCH FIRE ! Bang! instant disqualification. All because some dipstick was too bullheaded to specify top-of-the-line brake fluid for police spec Dodges from the factory. Another bean-counter's "better idea."

Years ago, Dodge ruled the state highway patrol roost. Now Found On Road Dead has that image. And in town, Chevrolet has taken over since Plymouth was killed by Diamler. Yep, another idiotic decision as they market the PT Cruiser out of Chrysler (their top of the line) dealerships and lose a good chunk of old time loyalists. Same thing goes for FWB loyalists who have nowhere to go.

This also tracks to folks who have read the news and see that - of all things - Chrysler products have a better initial quality rating (according to J.D.Power) than Mercedes! HA!

Some hope was promised when Bob Lutz jumped ship at Chrysler and came to GM. He's a car guy and not a bean counter, albeit somewhat of a loose cannon, but he's long in the tooth and can't fight all the dreaded bean counters for too many more years.

BTW - my sources as some industries tell me the big motivator for Diamler to grab Chryco was their CAD/CAM/Production melding wherein they could take the scrawls on the back of a cocktail napkin, run it thru a computer and put a car in a showroom in less than 18 months. That's what Diamler REALLY wanted.

The other stupidity of bean counters is their total lack of knowledge of marketing. That's where Iacocca made Ford such a powerhouse when he was at the helm and did such wonders with the Mustang which was little more than stuff from the Falcon parts bin wrapped in a pretty shell.

Thus the Cadillac IMAGE would be wondrously served by restoration of the FLEETWOOD BROUGHAM even if it was a break-even or slight money loser.

Case-in point: Anybody remember the world-beating, original Mercedes-Benz 600 sedan? Corporate money loser but it could blow the door handles off a Coprvette while hauling 6, fat, cigar-smoking Germans. That's IMAGE! I saw just that kind of thing happen on 38th Street in Indianapolis when the 600 first came out and I was behind the Corvette at the traffic light at Northwestern Avenue! It was rush hour and the west bound traffic got an eyefull as that eastbound black sedan made the red Corvette look silly when the light went green.

IMAGE! And the right FLEETWOOD BROUGHAM could have it.

Rick186

Yup, corp icons can be important. Marketshare is important even if it is means losing $$ on each sold. Remember Amiga? Gateway bought them out. Snagged all the patents they wanted, and sold the "leftovers". Many corp buyouts and takeovers are over assets that the company has. That is why being a privately held company has some benefits.

Honestly, Cadillac is lacking the position in the fleet of the Fleetwood. There is no ultra luxury sedan that can seat 6, and has the best of all worlds, power, luxury, handling, seating, uber-quiet, etc. Cadillac needs to aim one car at low end Maybach and S430/S500/S600 buyers. Something that would make those buyers think twice. I have driven a 2000 S500. NICE. And still, like the 93-96 Fleetwoods, simple. Not uber complicated like the late model Suburbans/Tahoes/Yukons. Good gosh, those things are almost overwhelming in buttons and thingys! (Ok, it wasn't a Denali, but it was a customized version with every option). The Fleetwood shouldn't become the car that Cadillac just tossed every option on. It needs to be a technological marvel and be very simple at the same time. You don't need to frustrate your buyers with complicated steering wheels, dashes, overhead consoles and doors.

I think the Statesman stretched has potential. Toss in a LS7 with tamer cam, keeping the inches up. Make it keep up with the STS-V for power, doesn't have to beat it, but make it sweat a little. AWD would be nice, std even better.

I love my 94 Concours. It, as far as I know, was the most expensive Caddy Sedan in 94, and has more luxury in it than in my mother's 99 S500 Benz. Besides, I'm at 169,000 and she dropped a bearing at 125,000.It doesn't have anywhere near the luxury of your moms S500. I have a '97 S series Benz and its 10x the car my wifes '98 Deville is (not just in repair costs either). :thumbsup: Apples to oranges really, the Benz was about $80k new the Deville was roughly $40k, so its to be expected.

Base price on a FW was like $38K, and typical prices as delivered should have been in the $41K to $44K range, likely $45K for a astroroof chrome wheeled model.

Maybe Sandy can help on that. The Seville did get up there in price, it was pretty slick ride back then! I still want one.... But it only seats 5... I have to have 6 for now....

My mom's new 97 Deville (not Concours) was stickered around $37 and was sold to my parents for $33K with some killer discount coupon they got. They got a good deal in my book.

nope, the STS was $44,890.00 which i believe is about 8k more than the Concourse which was 36k something.

It doesn't have anywhere near the luxury of your moms S500. I have a '97 S series Benz and its 10x the car my wifes '98 Deville is (not just in repair costs either). :thumbsup: Apples to oranges really, the Benz was about $80k new the Deville was roughly $40k, so its to be expected.
I wouldn't say that a benz is 10x the car as the deville, I had a '96 Deville, and it was a nice car, quiet as hell, and very nice ride, I never really like benzs ride quality, they tend to go to much for handling and not enough for softness. I like american cush. Not to say that the S class isin't nice, their my favorite Benz, at least the late '90s ones. I just really like the feel of Devilles for a daily driver. Plus mine had a Northstar.

I wouldn't say that a benz is 10x the car as the deville, I had a '96 Deville, and it was a nice car, quiet as hell, and very nice ride, I never really like benzs ride quality, they tend to go to much for handling and not enough for softness. I like american cush. Not to say that the S class isin't nice, their my favorite Benz, at least the late '90s ones. I just really like the feel of Devilles for a daily driver. Plus mine had a Northstar.Right, the Benz has a firmer feel than the Deville (I like that) and my S320 would get mutilated by my wifes Northstar in a race. I'm talking more in terms of quality feel and materials. From the inside there is no comparison. On the highway, even at 100mph there is not a squeak or creek, hardly any wind noise either with that dual pain glass and excellent insulation. Totally different experience. I like the Deville but the build quality isn't there, interior looks and feels cheapish. My FWB is better built than the Deville as well.

Right, the Benz has a firmer feel than the Deville (I like that) and my S320 would get mutilated by my wifes Northstar in a race. I'm talking more in terms of quality feel and materials. From the inside there is no comparison. On the highway, even at 100mph there is not a squeak or creek, hardly any wind noise either with that dual pain glass and excellent insulation. Totally different experience. I like the Deville but the build quality isn't there, interior looks and feels cheapish. My FWB is better built than the Deville as well.
well that goes without saying :D