: New Cadillac Reliability (CR)



Chuck C
03-09-03, 02:49 AM
Did any one see the new Consumer Reports 2003 car issue? They ranked Cadillac dead last in reliability among about 20 brands. They also ranked the STS at dead last in it's class. What say everyone about this? I thought Cadillac stepped up it's QC.

elwesso
03-09-03, 09:15 AM
Can you get a link to that site??

That is surprising, since you see so many cadillacs with lot of miles.

BeelzeBob
03-09-03, 10:52 AM
Yes, give us a link.. You see many Cadillacs with high miles because people can afford to maintain them.. I don't know what Cadillac is going to do when everyone decides to buy a Lexus because the cars stay reliable until they get stolen.

I'd love to read that article... Actually, I think you have to pay to read the articles on that site...

elwesso
03-09-03, 11:01 AM
But if he already subscribes to the magazine you can read the articles online.......

Brett
03-09-03, 12:18 PM
For the most part consumer reports hates american cars

AKPsiMC03
03-09-03, 12:42 PM
Originally posted by Brett
For the most part consumer reports hates american cars

for the most part, every big magazine hates american cars... except motor trend... they tend to like them more. Or at least they did up until recently.

elwesso
03-09-03, 12:57 PM
I dont get it. In the 60s and 70s, you didnt see hardly any other cars but american cars. Now in some cities, it is a rarity to see american cars.

Chuck C
03-09-03, 01:01 PM
ahhh, upon closer inspection of the magazine, the first chart highlights how many repairs per 100 vehicles there were for year 2000 cars. Acura at the very top with 21 and Cadillac at the very bottom with 82.

However, there is a chart of luxury cars that "give a detailed picture of how the truck/car has fared, but also allows us to look ahead to predict the reliability of the 2003 model-year entries"
CR arived at the numbers by averaging 2000, 2001, and 2002 reliability ratings. Here's the list:

Acura RL..........................70% (Better than ave)
Lexus LS430................... 65% (" " ")
Lexus GS300/400............ 30% (" " ")
BMW 5-Series.................. 15% (" " ")
-----------------------------------------
Audi A6............................ 25% (Worse " ")
Cadillac Deville................. 30% (" " ")
Volvo S80......................... 45% (" " ")
Mercedes-Benz S-Class.... 45% (" " ")
Jaguar S-Type................... 60% (" " ")
Cadillac Seville*.................. 117% (" " ")

*so low, they had to write out the percent

Katshot
03-09-03, 06:55 PM
This is nothing new guys. The Cadillac line has been rated poorly for years.
It's like I've said in other threads before,
The American car industry (like many others) had gotten rather complacent until Lexus gave them a wake-up call. Hopefully, it won't happen again.

elwesso
03-09-03, 09:19 PM
IMO, the older model caddys seem to be more reliable. Maybe this is a complete misconception on my part, but it seems there are less problems with older models than with the newer ones.

AKPsiMC03
03-09-03, 11:25 PM
Originally posted by elwesso
IMO, the older model caddys seem to be more reliable. Maybe this is a complete misconception on my part, but it seems there are less problems with older models than with the newer ones.

thats because the newer things get, the more features they have, and the more that can go wrong with them. not to mention they get much more expensive to fix.

BeelzeBob
03-10-03, 07:27 AM
Imagine what Cadillac would be if they rated at the top of that list.. They sell cars that have the worst reliability on that list - and they still sell a lot of cars. Imagine otherwise.. They'd be the Microsoft of luxury vehicles...

Katshot
03-10-03, 07:47 AM
I don't think the list goes LOW enough for Cadillac to have Microsoft reliability ;)

BeelzeBob
03-10-03, 09:50 AM
Haha. Good point.. Well.. You know what I mean. :D

elwesso
03-10-03, 05:37 PM
So then would toyota or lexus be unix or linux???

:D

Night Wolf
03-16-03, 01:26 AM
CR is very anti-American car biased, they rated the Grand Am as a bad car and "a normal 4-door familey sedan" which really isn't true, they also said some other things that made it sound bad next to the Camery etc....

I have been subscribing to Motor Trend for awhile now, and it seems like they are having more and more stuff on imports and less and less on Domestics...

elwesso
03-16-03, 09:06 AM
To a certain degree, american cars arent as good as imports, reliability wise. I am not trying to be anti american, I am just stating the facts. You will see many more Nissans and Toyotas with high miles that havent had much in the way of parts replacement. If you do see a cadillac with that many miles, chances are that they have had lots of money put into them.

Believe me, if i could find a cadillac that i liked, i'd get it.

Katshot
03-16-03, 09:38 AM
It's not just CR that has this opinion. The JD power survey is out and it closely mimics the CR report.

Night Wolf
03-16-03, 10:18 AM
Originally posted by elwesso
To a certain degree, american cars arent as good as imports, reliability wise. I am not trying to be anti american, I am just stating the facts. You will see many more Nissans and Toyotas with high miles that havent had much in the way of parts replacement. If you do see a cadillac with that many miles, chances are that they have had lots of money put into them.

Believe me, if i could find a cadillac that i liked, i'd get it.

I hear that from alot of people that imports are alot more reliable then domstics, but around here, I see far more domestic cars that are 10years old, or older then imports.....

kcnewell
03-16-03, 10:36 AM
Originally posted by Panther
I hear that from alot of people that imports are alot more reliable then domstics, but around here, I see far more domestic cars that are 10years old, or older then imports.....

I tend to agree with Panther...It's always been fasionable in this country to bash American cars and the leading consumer related magazines are the WORST offenders! I see plenty of mid sixties Cadillacs on the road and running great around here ( Seen any Toyotas that old lately? ) My Cadillac is 11 years old and reliable as hell and is more comfortable than ANY Import that I've seen. If Consumer Reports says it's not good...Buy it! 'cause Consumer Reports has little if anything to do with reality! They've been leading the anti-American industry parade for years ( Since the '70s! ) Generally I feel like this...If Ralph Nader says it's bad, It's good, If Consumer Reports says it's bad it's good, If J.D. Power says it's bad....It's good!

I hear a lot of talk about the poor quality of American products. Some is based in fact and a LOT of it is coming from people with an agenda whose opinions are of little real value!

rek
03-16-03, 11:34 AM
KC, well said!! I've been driving nothing but the so called "unreliable American products" since day one. 62 Chevy gave me over 125K miles. 69 Caprice...189K miles. 77 Caprice 150K miles. 80 Caprice 137K miles. 85 Caprice 142K miles. All the cars needed were regular maintanence. All had original engines and transmissions. The 84 Caprice I have now has 144K on it and it will still boil the hydes....These cars were rated low... Ever see how many Police cars and Taxis are Caprices? How come they don't jump on the "Foreign car band wagon"? Agenda's, you hit it on the head! I knew of this guy who wore his foreign car like a badge of intelligence.....See, I'm smart, I bought foreign, I'll not be party to the complacent US workforce... well there is justice, the guy was DUMPED by his Jap owned company..now he sells lube products to the US Auto industry. To each his own, but sooner or later, it will dawn on them, who is buttering their bread!

kcnewell
03-16-03, 12:01 PM
Originally posted by elwesso
To a certain degree, american cars arent as good as imports, reliability wise. I am not trying to be anti american, I am just stating the facts. You will see many more Nissans and Toyotas with high miles that havent had much in the way of parts replacement. If you do see a cadillac with that many miles, chances are that they have had lots of money put into them.

Believe me, if i could find a cadillac that i liked, i'd get it.

If you don't like Cadillacs! Why are you on a Cadillac enthusiasts web site? If you take care of your car It won't become a money pit! The main problem is most lazy assed people don't even think about maintenance till the car's already so trashed that you have to dump your life savings into it to bring it back to life! I.M.O. They deserve what they get!

elwesso
03-16-03, 12:40 PM
When I said cadillac that I liked, I meant one that was in good shape, taken care of and stuff like that. When I was looking for one, I could not find one that either had a lot of miles, or was a hunk of trash. If someone came up to me today and had a good condition ETC or STS, I would trade the Q in, no questions asked.

KC, I completely agree with you that if a car has its regular maintenance, that it they will treat you well. This can even go for the 4100. I have seen some of those that have given no problems for many miles. The common denominator for all cars that run well, and keep running well is MAINTENANCE. That is another reason why I got my Q. First owner was a lease, and the second owner was a lawyer right here in my town. I am working on fixing it up, so when I sell it (if I do) it will be real gem, and not some beater.

kcnewell
03-16-03, 12:53 PM
Just watchin' your brain fart count Wes!:D Tryin' to keep you at the top of your game!

elwesso
03-16-03, 01:15 PM
SURE YOU ARE

Katshot
03-16-03, 01:48 PM
You can say what you want but if you look at the "big picture", the numbers support the reports. Saying you don't believe it and questioning the impartiality of the polling companies is just sticking your head in the sand. I love my big, fat American car but I am able to be realistic about it's overall quality.
You don't LOVE something just because it's reliable. I LOVE my Caddy regardless of how much trouble it may be from time to time. I would NEVER feel the same way about most imports though, they just don't make me feel the same way.

kcnewell
03-16-03, 02:04 PM
True! To a point...You can skew polling numbers any way you want to depending on how the polling is done. It's very easy to promote an agenda through subtle working of the figures to make the results more clearly reflect your preconcieved opinion. We see this all the time ( The molding of public opinion ) with the subtle but effective manipulation of news stories in the network news and such. ( They generally tend to lean to the anti American viewpoint ) Misinformation is such an ingrained part of our culture that we hardly notice it anymore. I often wonder who painted the " Big Picture" That we're always told to look at! And what would happen if more of us looked at it a little more critically.

Elvis
03-16-03, 04:37 PM
The bashing started within a few years of the oil embargo. American automakers responded to the energy crisis with the Chevette. Cadillac responded with the Cimarron. Before that, nobody I knew would ever dream of buying an import, except maybe a loaded Mercedes if they got filthy rich.

Once Honda, Toyota and Datson got a foothold in the market, people started marvelling at their reliability. Those early 1980's 4-bangers were getting 200,000 miles with just tune-ups and oil changes.

I don't think that American quality has gone down all that much. It's just that by comparison the imports are better built vehicles. A few years ago I read a study that said the average American car took 40 man-hours of assembly time, while the average Toyota took only 15. That's all in design and engineering.

Acura, Lexus, and Infiniti proved that the same guys who whipped Ford and Chevy with little cars could also compete with the big boys like Mercedes and BMW. We all know where that left Cadillac, which at one time completely dominated the American luxury car market with Lincoln a distant second.

It's not likely that Cadillac will ever dominate again, but I think that they've made great strides toward making vehicles that the "under-50" crowd wants to buy. Maybe that's why I'm so closely looking at them now.

kcnewell
03-16-03, 06:02 PM
Yes and no....The bashing started in the late '60s at about the time that Jane Fonda and her ******* friends were gonna show us a better way to run society ( didn't that work out great? ) I remember riding in my Dads Cadillac in the late sixties and Hippie types would spit on it. Then I began hearing friends say that American made cars were the tools of capitalism as though capitalism was somehow a bad thing. That didn't catch on too well because no one but a idiot would like to live under the alternative systems available at that time or now. So gradually they started changing it into a quality issue ( Maybe that would stick) That thanks to a generation that was looking for a better way to do things started to catch on. Then in '73 the FAKE oil shortage took place and the american companies that had been building exactly what the public wanted for many years was forced by artificial circumstances to come up OVERNIGHT with a different way. They of course stumbled, That's exactly what the anti industry types in the hippie generation were looking for and they latched onto it with a vengance! They have still not let go and they convinced a lot of other people in their generation and in the coming generations their " Hate America first " attitude. Then when the government and society at large can't keep up with the scizophrenic demands of people that you can NEVER please 'cause they don't want to be. They point their fingers at the American way and at American industry and say " They're unresponsive to the publics needs" After almost 40 years of this kind of nonsense The general public is as confused as was intended.
I find the perception among my friends. If they have a Jap car and it has a warranty issue it isn't because of poor design or cheesey construction. It's because it's a complicated well designed machine that will obviously have a problem now and then. But if you have the same issue with your AMERICAN car It's because it's a poorly designed piece of crap and you should have known better than to " BUY AMERICAN " I've had fewer problems with my Cadillac in the years that I've had it than some of my friends that drive Jap cars have had with theirs and yet I NEVER hear any of them bitching about the quality of the cars no matter how often they go to the shop. There is an undercurrent of thought in this country that says buying American is somehow not as cool as buying foriegn, That possibly your not as smart as the guy that buys an import car. People ( Pronounced Sheeple ) will follow the crowd that convinces them that they're somehow the elite. They might just follow them to their own economic demise....And That! Was the point from the beginning.

Katshot
03-16-03, 06:06 PM
I agree with Elvis. Believe me, I'll be the first one to scream conspiracy but this is not anywhere near a conspiracy. It's about American people waking up slowly but surely to the fact that we weren't as good as we thought we were. An I'm not just talking about cars either.
My wife's family has a manufacturing company (textiles mostly) and I can tell you that that industry went down the tube for much of the same reason.

kcnewell
03-16-03, 06:07 PM
I obviously disagree!

Katshot
03-16-03, 07:11 PM
KC, think about it, if the imports that started hitting these shores 30+ years ago were just less expensive than domestic cars, their market penetration would've been minimal. But they weren't. They proved to be not only far less expensive than domestic cars, but also more reliable, dependable, and cheaper to maintain. Through all that, the domestic automotive industry chose to look down their collective noses at the slowly growing market shares of the imports. They were wrong, dead wrong. They should've learned from the VW Beetle but they chose to ignore all the obvious warning signs that judgement day was coming. Eventually, the domestic manufacturers decided to just LIVE with the fact that imports had successfully kicked their butts in the economy car market, but still hung on to the idea that there was NO WAY that anyone would be able to beat them in their core market. The full-size LUXURY car market. I think everyone's in agreement that Toyota (via Lexus) proved them wrong again. And I might point out that through this whole affair, the imports managed to do this while being strangled by import tariffs imposed by the American government at the urging of the domestic manufacturers. Through all that, imports have managed to gain respect throughout the automotive industry for their manufacturing, marketing, and customer service techniques.
Face it, domestic manufacturers have been fleecing the American public for damn near 100 years and it's about time America woke up to it.
I mean give me a break, how do you explain the multi-million dollar salaries and bonuses that are regularly paid to domestic car manufacturer executives, while all the while the company posts losses in the BILLIONS. Those losses trickle down to the "Joe-average" American stock-holder, auto factory worker, and their suppiers.
Sorry, don't expect me to wave the GM, or Ford flag blindly just because I'm an American.
It's because I'm an American I yell long and loud when I'm being SCREWED. You should too.

rek
03-16-03, 07:29 PM
It's no mystery to me what makes America tick... MONEY... The more the American worker earns, the more he pays in Taxes. You know, the source for paying the bills of freedom. Manufacturing job losses, replaced by the service sector, is less tax revenue. If "quality" is your focal point, how about a little focus on the quality of your country, and what funds it. This "World economy" hype spewed by many SHEEPLE(I like that word KC) has the effect of LOWERING our earning power, to that of the places where the work we used to do, is now being done. When did a TWO wage earner family, come into being?? Pretty close to the time when Buy Smart, invest in your country, was changed to buy foreign and thumb your nose at the "lower quality", you deserve better, cause you're smarter, thinking. DO you think being raised by a day care center, or a nanny,can have any effect on the kids?? Most of the schools have disipline problems, that I think are the result of NO parenting. Both Moms and Dads are working, so they can buy all the "Sheeple" trappings of the day. SO, boil it down, are we really getting ahead by putting our money into a foreigners economy, rather than our own! America works best, when everybody is working.

Katshot
03-16-03, 08:07 PM
We are now paying for our parents compacency. The problem is there are a lot of people who are NOT. They are the FAT-CATS that are still making millions while so many are hurting so badly. The politicians that make hundreds of thousands (or millions) and claim they "feel" our pain, the corporate executives that make millions and then DISAPPEAR when the company mysteriously goes chapter 11 and hundreds or thousands are left without a paycheck or retirement fund are a virus within our country. They are MUCH more of an enemy to us than the foreigners. We're being beaten from within folks and it's NOT going to stop until we all wake up to it.

elwesso
03-16-03, 08:09 PM
I completely agree. If everone buying a new car this week bought american, it would help a lot. What I dont see is GM trying to improve. They have to see these low reliabilty ratings, and it doesnt seem like they have done anything to correct it. When I go spend a $45000 cadillac, I expect it to not give me a lot of problems in the future. IMO, they havent been doing a good job doing this.

I do not feel bad about buying a foreign car, especially since mine is a used one and my money spent goes to the American economy. But, as you can see, when I buy new, I get american. That is the way I am going to do it, unless GM gets worse. I have high hopes for the future of GM.

Night Wolf
03-16-03, 11:06 PM
yeah, a couple of weeks ago, the same thing about CR reguarding the Grand Am was posted at the Grand Am forums I go to, that thread can be seen here:

http://gaownersclub.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3428

just like with the Caddys, they saw the Grand Am is not reliable and a cheap budget car etc...

we need to get a American-only car mag. or something. My father get's High Performance Pontiac, and there are some really cool stuff in there (guy fit a 454 in his '85 Feiro, but how a engine should be, not sideways, it was running like mid 10's at the track)

Brett
03-16-03, 11:26 PM
Originally posted by elwesso
I completely agree. If everone buying a new car this week bought american, it would help a lot. What I dont see is GM trying to improve. They have to see these low reliabilty ratings, and it doesnt seem like they have done anything to correct it. When I go spend a $45000 cadillac, I expect it to not give me a lot of problems in the future. IMO, they havent been doing a good job doing this.

I do not feel bad about buying a foreign car, especially since mine is a used one and my money spent goes to the American economy. But, as you can see, when I buy new, I get american. That is the way I am going to do it, unless GM gets worse. I have high hopes for the future of GM.

As i recall from previous posts "your fleet" consists mainly of your parents cars, so i think they have the right idea when they buy new, as for you i recall a 7-8 page thread about a month ago where you were looking at buying just about everything except american, unless you found the "right one". Not trying to start anything, but it seems to me your pretty firmly on the import side.

kcnewell
03-16-03, 11:54 PM
Originally posted by Brett
As i recall from previous posts "your fleet" consists mainly of your parents cars, so i think they have the right idea when they buy new, as for you i recall a 7-8 page thread about a month ago where you were looking at buying just about everything except american, unless you found the "right one". Not trying to start anything, but it seems to me your pretty firmly on the import side.


Sorry Wes, But he hit the nail right on the head! I was tryin to figure that out too!

Mad'lac
03-17-03, 12:10 AM
Its out in the open now Wes. Just admit it that you're a closet ricer and we'll understand.

kcnewell
03-17-03, 12:12 AM
OUCH!.......And you guys say I'm mean! LOL!

Busted Wes!:banghead:

Mad'lac
03-17-03, 12:19 AM
Not mean...just brutally honest :D

jadcock
03-17-03, 10:06 AM
I think we can all agree on one thing -- and that's our love for anything that moves with an internal combustion engine, regardless of the origin of the vehicle. I used to be hardcore American V8 muscle machine only. Then I awoke to the need for good gas mileage and four doors, and I got the Seville. Then I awoke to the need for a pickup bed and started looking for a pickup. I happened to find this '95 Nissan with 171k miles on the clock and took it for a spin. It drove like it was new! I picked 'er up for $3900. If you wanted my honest opinion, I'd tell you that if I found an S-10 or Ranger with that many miles, I'd pass on it. I think deep down, I know the Nissan will really run forever and don't share the same feelings about its American competitors, mostly due to bad impressions of Ford Rangers I've driven, although none of them were "unreliable".

Then I turn back to my experience, at all the American V8s I've had, and I see that not one of them has ever left me stranded or required a major repair. I think the history says that Americans love V8 engines, and American auto companies have thrived on building good V8 engines. I think the majority of the reliability issues are cracker box American econo-box cars with engines that American companies have only been building in earnest for the past few decades. The Japanese cars, however, have been focused on economy and small sizes for ever. The Japanese can build a 4-cylinder engine -- and make it run forever. That's what THEY thrive on.

There's a good book that all geographers should read...and it's good knowledge for most of the world too. It's called How To Lie With Maps. It details how you can really make a statistical map look WAY skewed one way or the other. And every map is correct. It's just how you look at it, and how you paint the picture. The same is done with statistics...the same numbers (the "facts") can make either domestics or imports look bad. In the end, it always comes down to personal preferences and style.

I think it's Suzuki that advertises their 7yr/100k mile warranty is better than Hyundai's 10yr/100k warranty because of the number of miles you can drive per yer. With Hyundai, you can only drive 10k miles per year, but with Suzuki, you can drive 14,285 miles per year, thus, that warranty is "better"...all using the "facts".

kcnewell
03-17-03, 10:59 AM
I tend to agree with the bulk of what you said here. The Ranger and S-10 part is a great example of what has plagued American car companies since the fake oil shortages of the '70s and early '80s. The S-10's I.M.O. got better as time passed, the Rangers seemed to get worse! Niether one ever got to the point where it was a great truck. The current S-10's still suck but not nearly as bad as they used to. Where the American car companies still shine I.M.O. is with the larger cars. ( Which are the only ones that interest me ) The imports just can't seem to get it right. They do not have the right feel to them when you drive one. If I'm driving a luxury car I want it to feel like a luxury car not like a Toyota with really nice seats! That and the fact that I have problems with imported cars on many levels leads me to see no reason to look any further than I already have at them! Am I biased against imports?.....You bet! Is that unreasonable?....Maybe! But it's my business and I feel that it's important to speak on the subject as long a loud as possible to let people know that they're doing damage to themselves and their own country by playing into the hands of companies that have no stake in our future success! The part about map skewing was great too and so true!

Mad'lac
03-17-03, 11:31 AM
I don't know about that. My father sold his 91 Sonoma (GMC S-10)a few yrs back....after having put on it 253000 miles on it.That truck took all he gave it.And it wasn't just used to drive him everywhere he went. He did his business with that truck (owns a pest control business) Went hunting in that truck ( I don't need a stinking 4x4)The only thing that I know he changed was a clogged up fuel filter and a water pump. The only reason he got rid of the truck was because he was sideswipe by a big truck. After the repairs were done he sold it.Now of course he did his maintenance on the truck but he was not exactly on the dot all the time. So I know S-10s are good lil trucks. My next car is going to be a 2dr S-10 Blazer but not a new one thats for sure.

Katshot
03-17-03, 12:17 PM
Mad'lac, your story about the S-10 may show that there is at least ONE that wasn't a piece of crap but overall, the line has been plagued with poor quality and performance from day one.
As for telling people that they are doing their country wrong by buying imports, I think that in itself is damaging to our country. Maybe even moreso than buying the import products.
By supporting American manufacturers blindly you are simply allowing them to continue the SAME OLD business practices. You're condoning it. Your dollar is the only power you have folks. If you start giving it to the competition, it will force the domestic manufacturers to clean up their acts and produce a better product at a better price.
Think about it for a second, if Lexus and some others hadn't started stealing away precious market share from the domestic guys, do you REALLY believe that they would be building as good a car as they are right now? HELL NO!!!
So if you think you're helping anybody by playing that "buy American" crap, think again.

Brett
03-17-03, 12:24 PM
i agree with most of what you said Katshot. Although i do think that the concept of why you should "Buy American" is not fully understood by most people. I'm not saying you have to buy american, but it should at least be part of the criteria that you use in the buying process. If two cars are equal an american should choose the american car imo, It seems now its fashionable to buy imports and i think most people dont realize the harm it causes to our economy

Katshot
03-17-03, 12:35 PM
I fail to see what harm it would cause to our economy. Either way, a large portion of your money will be ending up in the hands of our government. And most imports you might buy are built here now, which means your money supports American auto workers. And one final thing, you wouldn't believe how many import parts go into your "American" car.
In the end, I still think it's far more important to send a message to American manufacturers that you want them to be competetive and that you're not going to go broke trying to keep them rich.

jadcock
03-17-03, 12:47 PM
Unfortunately for auto makers world wide, I don't make any of them rich, buying used cars all the time. I guess I may have some small influence, indirectly, but I refuse to pay the huge markup on almost any type of vehicle on the market. Some of them even have the gall to TELL YOU they're marking it up because of "market demand" (T'bird I think, as well as others probably).

Save the 25-50% and buy it a few years old. That's what we plan to do with the Cadillac SRX (the new Sigma-based SUV). I want to wait a few years after they come out, make sure they're for real (and not a flash in the pan like the Catera), and then go buy one for a third the price of a new one three years down the road.

Buying used always has its risks, but all my cars have been used...that's 5 cars in total, 4 American, 1 Japanese. As far as the S-10 thing, a car can be mechanically reliable, but still "low quality" at the same time, at least in the perception of the buying public. We had an '86 S-10 here (with the Iron Duke) with something like 210k miles on it and it still ran okay. But buttons had come off the dash, the plastic trim of the dash was coming apart -- it was just plan loosely built. Same deal with the Tauruses at work. We have 5 company Tauruses at our offices here, ranging from '96 models up through '99. The '99 has about 150k on it and that's the least any of them have. One of the '96s has 280k on it. They're pretty good cars, but still "cheap". American manufacturers are getting better at building good solid cars (witness the G-platformed Aurora and 98+ Seville), but for the most part, I think the Japanese has them beat in terms of NVH and general solidity of the vehicle.

Another thing Katshot said is dead on -- many aspects of an enthusiast's...well...enthusiasm about a car isn't because of it's reliability. If that were the case, there would be Toyota Camry fan clubs all over the place. People love their cars because of the way they drive or the way they look or the way they feel, etc. There are many subjective things about a car that can't be measured in numbers. That's certainly why I like my '97 Seville. It's not the fastest thing out there (but pretty damn quick), not the newest thing out there, not the tightest chassis out there, but I still love it for my own reasons. I enjoy the reliability, but I love the looks, love the performance, love the way the steering wheel feels in my hands, etc.

Love for a car makes enthusiasts, not reliability or Consumer Reports figures. :thumbsup:

Brett
03-17-03, 01:24 PM
I fail to see what harm it would cause to our economy.


this of course was the point i was making...thank you

kcnewell
03-17-03, 01:49 PM
It's not the amount of money that winds up in the governments hands that I refer to in the quest to keep people buying our products! The government already steals enough money from the average guy to ruin his life. I'm refering to the impact on our economy of losing the blue collar jobs required to build these things.We continue to ship our jobs overseas and listen to the idiots that say we can base our economy on technology and information and that's woefully shortsighted. And failing to see the impact on our economy doesn't mean there isn't an impact it just means that you don't see it! The average American doesn't worry about the things that don't personally touch his life. That doesn't mean that there is no problem it just means that it doesn't show on the horizon that you can see. We all worry about the economy but we all don't fully understand why it is in the shape it's in! We're doing it to ourselves with the " it's not my fault " attitude that is so prevalent in our society!

Elvis
03-17-03, 02:29 PM
I've been driving Acura and Honda products exclusively for the past 12 years (4 different cars, 250,000+ miles). I haven't had (knock on wood) a single reliability issue yet.

Yeah, certain things wear out at 60,000-80,000 miles. I dumped one really nice car because it had two bent rims and I didn't feel like spending the $800 they wanted to replace them. But that was my fault, not the manufacturer.

I'm almost ready to give GM/Cadillac another shot. A big part of it is comfort, plain and simple. Honda designs cars for short people. One other thing is that I've come to miss V-8 torque and smooth shifting automatic transmissions. And yeah, part of it has something to do with 9/11.

Ford got four opportunities to make me a life-long customer. They failed.

Chrysler will NEVER get any of my money. I've seen too many people get burned. Iacocca should've let them die.

GM was the car of my childhood. Olds, Pontiac, and Cadillac. About every 18 months, either Mom or Dad would trade cars. We never even looked at anything else.

So I'm probably going to give Cadillac one last shot. If they blow it, I'll probably never buy American again.

jadcock
03-17-03, 02:54 PM
In my experiences, Ford engines are good and their transmissions are terrible. GM's got a good thing going with Hydramatic. Chrysler can't get an engine right I don't think. All Caravans blow oil it seems. I've seen brand new Intrepids and 300Ms burn oil -- a very blue smoke out of the tailpipe. How embarassing!!! On the flip side, we've had nothing but unbreakable and unbeatable vehicles in Jeeps. I'll be a Jeep customer for life if I need a compact SUV.

Olds with us is a mixed bag. Mom had an '85 Ciera wagon that she really liked, but it dropped ECMs about once a month. All fixed under warranty. GM lost money on us with that one. My parents swore they'd never have an Olds again, but they really liked my '84 Cutlass. That thing didn't give me a lick of trouble in the time I owned it. That was a really good car for me.

One thing that's surprised me recently is Nissan has gotten my attention. Dad had a few Datsun Z cars and considered buying a Pathfinder when he bought his '89 Cherokee. I've always liked the older Maximas and thought I'd give 'em a try with this truck. I've been very impressed so far. The miles are high, but the truck is really really solid. I think even the clutch is original. It's tough as a boot and that's what I wanted in a truck.

I don't buy cars to put money on this shore or that shore because I've come to the realisation that money is going through wires so fast today around the world, you'd never be able to track where your $25,000 goes, regardless of the product you purchase. I buy cars that fit my life and tastes. Usually, that means a larger American car with a V8 engine that hauls butt. Lately, that's included a smaller Nissan truck with a 4 banger to putt around town in and carry mulch and pull a small boat. :thumbsup:

kcnewell
03-17-03, 03:50 PM
About the only engine that I've seen chrysler get right was the venerable slant 6. other than that not too good!

elwesso
03-17-03, 03:51 PM
I am speechless!

If you thought I didnt like american, or cadillac for that matter, why would I be on this board? I joined this board because I am a cadillac enthusist, and when i got my infiniti I could have just as well said tata to you. But I still like cadillac, and I really hope to get one sometime......

About looking at something non american, I was merely exploring the possibilities. I mean do you really think that I would drive a BMW 750 or a Jaguar, and be able to afford to maintain it?

This is how I break it down (and this is generally speaking): If you need good, reliable transportation, I would go import. There is no denying it, the big picture indicates that imports have better reliability ratings in recent history. Sure, there are the Jaguars and BMWs that dont go a month without being in the shop, but the smaller ones (toyota, nissan, honda) can go forever without having any problems. Sure, there are american cars that are as good, if not better than imports. GMs 3.1L that is in the early 90s grand prixs, cutlass, etc. is one of GMs most reliable engines. But imports are merely transportation, not something you really ENJOY. Sure, I like my Q, but when I see that black on black eldorado in the parking lot, I really wish I had that. When you ride in a cadillac, there is something found in no other car, a certain warmth. KC said a long time ago that import cars have a certain "sterility", and after driving my Q for a month, I agree.

kcnewell
03-17-03, 04:40 PM
I don't know about the rest of you, but I think this thread "ROCKS" I like it when everyone's got something to say!!!

elwesso
03-17-03, 04:45 PM
I have to say, even though this thread is against me to some degree, it is still a good discussion. They dont call it a discussion board for everyone to agree and get along!! Some threads are not as good because some people cant contribute because they dont know what we are talking about. This is all opinion.

Brett
03-17-03, 04:46 PM
wes man no hard feelings...you know alot of stuff for a young guy and we're lucky to have you, but you cracked me up when you started your response with "i am speechless" and then rambled on for 3 paragraphs. That was great

elwesso
03-17-03, 04:51 PM
Its alright--- I can take it.

I meant to say something along the lines of "i am appalled" or something like that. I would have to say it does sound stupid to say Im speechless and then start talking for a few paragraphs.

kcnewell
03-17-03, 06:11 PM
The brain fart count rises? We're just workin' Ya a little bit Wes! We're not against you....Look at how Katshot and me used to go at it! There's nothing better than a good spirited debate! That's why this thread rocks...

elwesso
03-17-03, 06:29 PM
Yes, the brain fart count rises again. How many is that, i think ill start a counter in my profile. My guess is about 20 official farts.

kcnewell
03-17-03, 06:35 PM
20 official.....7.2 Billion unofficial! LOL!!!

elwesso
03-17-03, 06:39 PM
TRUE DAT. Sometimes it really isnt a brain fart, but rather a lack of thinking.

But those have to be considered brain farts i guess!!

rek
03-17-03, 06:46 PM
He thinks I don't like him, 'cause of what I say to him. If I didn't like him, do you know what I would say to him? ...NOTHING!!!!

kcnewell
03-17-03, 06:59 PM
ME TOO!

Katshot
03-18-03, 11:03 PM
Brett,
I agree that the best way to buy a car (from a value/dollar point of view) is as you stated. My problem is that I tend to LUST after cars and therefore can't usually wait. Therefore, I guess I'm doing my part to keep all those UAW guys employed. Lord knows we need to keep our unions strong (said with tongue planted FIRMLY in cheek).
When I said that I didn't see how buying an "import" would harm our economy, I meant that these days, just because a particular model car is sold by a company who calls a foreign country it's home, that doesn't always mean that it is TRUELY an import. There is no 100% import cars, or 100% domestic cars anymore. Hell, even Harley Davidson has import parts now. The point is that now, the important thing is to use your dollar as your voice. If you want to condone the business tactics of the American car companies, just keep on buying their products and let them and the whole world know that quality and value mean less to us than what car company sells it. You notice I said what car company SELLS IT and not who BUILT IT, or who manufactured it. That's because these days you have Americans building Honda's, Japanese building Chevy's, parts content of every car being mixed to such a degree that a Grand Marquis/Crown Vic can be classified an "import".
No, sorry dude, the ONLY way to keep the car companies on their toes is to make them stay competitive.
If you don't see that competition for your dollar is the largest single driving force behind business in general, you're kidding yourself.
And KC, I LOVED the slant six too but the 426 Hemi revolutionized racing, and the 383, and 440 were turning police cars into rock-solid, high-performance cars for years too. And don't forget the 318 which was also a very reliable mill.

Mad'lac
03-18-03, 11:54 PM
Originally posted by Katshot
Hell, even Harley Davidson has import parts now. [/B]


Now you are just trying to hurt KC's feeling there.

kcnewell
03-19-03, 12:15 AM
He has an excellent point for the most part! Most of Harley-Davidsons electrical components are made in Japan by Hitachi and have been since the early to mid '70s The forks and shocks as well are made in Japan by Showa. It's a fact that until they sent the work over there the forks and electrics in their bikes SUCKED with a capitol "S". The frames , Engines and sheet metal parts are made here and the final assy. is done here.Thats as close as we get to an American made motorcycle in this day and age! It's the same with cars as well.....I will continue to support American based companies before all others and will continue to advocate the practice by others till Ford and G.M. are based in Okinawa.....Ah! The 426 Hemi and the 383 and 440.....Remember when Chrysler had a clue?


Don't worry about my feelings...When you've been where I've been in my life You don't have many!

Mad'lac
03-19-03, 12:57 AM
lol as I once said....they modeled the Terminator after you KC.

1. He feels no pain
2. He can't be stopped
3. He can't be reasoned with.

With the exception of #3 I see a pattern here

Katshot
03-19-03, 07:14 AM
"Thats as close as we get to an American made motorcycle in this day and age! It's the same with cars as well.....I will continue to support American based companies before all others and will continue to advocate the practice by others till Ford and G.M. are based in Okinawa."
The problem with that is that it's getting hard to tell who's REALLY an American company anymore. Mainly because where the company is "based" doesn't mean as much as who controls it. Many companys are majority owned by a different country through stock purchases and therefore are basically "controlled" by another country. I just read a list of companys that are French contolled, or at least majority French owned. It amazed me. I had no idea so many everyday products we use are actually French controlled.

Brett
03-19-03, 08:40 AM
I am aware that many foreign cars are built here....i am also aware that all US cars have foreign parts. it does not change my opinion though that buying an american car is better for our economy than buying a foreign car. money going to american companies is better than money going to foreign companies even if those american companies do use foreign parts. does competition help quality?...of course. am i some crazed right winger that thinks foreign cars should be banned?...no way. my point basically was if all else is equal people should buy american. But if my neighbor pulls up in a new LS430 and i ask him why he bought a japanes car and he tells me the resale is twice as good as a cadillac, then i cant argue with his decision, in this case things werent equal. hell its very possible my next car could be foreign if i get up the nerve to up my price, cadillac has nothing to compare to the S500 or 745. my hope is that pople dont buy foreign cars because its cool to own foreign or because of twisted perception. that being said im off to new york for a few days ill talk to you guys next week.

Brett
03-19-03, 08:42 AM
oh and as far as not knowing who owns a REALLY owns a company, maybe i watch to much CNBC, but its not to hard to keep track of. And in case your worried GM and Ford are still american companies and chrysler is not..and i will be avoiding Nissan and Motel 6, et al as they are French controlled

kcnewell
03-19-03, 09:10 AM
Oh! So I'm not the only CNBC junkie out there! Interesting , I was wondering how they were staying on the air with only one viewer!

jadcock
03-19-03, 09:34 AM
KC, where'd the Mercy-Benz go (in your sig)?

kcnewell
03-19-03, 10:18 AM
Sold it for $17,000...That's about $12,000 more than it was worth!The guy walked up with cash in hand and asked and caught me in the right mood and "POOF!!" gone. The whole thing took about 15 minutes!

rek
03-19-03, 03:37 PM
Here's another slant on what to buy....Go Ahead, Go to War with me, and see If I FORGET..... EVER....It's been said "To forgive and forget" Forget your past mistakes and you WILL relive them. I'll leave the forgiving stuff to GOD.. I'll BUY AMERICAN when given the choice. If an executive takes too big of a bonus, compared to a foreign executive, that's part of CAPITOLISM. If he is doing it illegally, outside the framework of capitolism, That's another issue. YA, I would like to make billions too, who wouldn't? The fact that some executives can get their hands on all that loot, is possible in our system. Is it right? I don't like it, but what's new about the way the establishment operates. If I don't buy their product, do you think they will stop taking all the loot? I doubt it. If they can take it they will. If they can't get it from me, they'll find another place. What's to whine about, that's the way things are, end of report!

kcnewell
03-19-03, 03:42 PM
We still have the BEST system in the WORLD! Give me a realistic alternative!



I'm waiting!

jadcock
03-19-03, 04:20 PM
What are you kidding me? I'd like to live in Iraq! I love sand in my eyes, don't you? Ever been too lazy to take a shower? No problem in Iraq...no water. And last but not least, you ever run low on oil, you can just go scoop some up off the ground because they've sabatoged their wells already.

Yeah, Iraq, that's a great place to live!

Elvis
03-19-03, 04:32 PM
They have plenty of water in Iraq.

The reason they don't bathe has nothing to do with that.

In Iraq, the guy next to you probably stinks worse, so you have to put our your own odor as a shield of defense.

jadcock
03-19-03, 04:43 PM
Thanks for the input. :)

That's what I was saying, but in a much less offensive way. :) They're humans too -- they're the ones we're going out to save from tyranny and oppression. If they become a democracy after the war, their country won't stink nearly as bad. :) :thumbsup:

kcnewell
03-19-03, 07:00 PM
We need to ship them Laundry detergent and deoderant A.S.A.P. though!

Ralph
03-20-03, 12:11 AM
When you buy anything other than GM, Ford, or Chrysler, I have read that at least 90% of the money goes overseas. They may sell the parts here, but you pay for the shipping costs. Up here, my friend just paid 500 dollars for a toyota alternator. I don't know what that is in US dollars, but it's too much for me to justify. Also, something I don't think was considered is that Chrysler has a flood of German engineers now. GM has many Japanese engineers working for them, the same for Ford. I have always bought AMERICAN cars because I think the quality NOW is just as good. I remember in 1980 when my mom bought a new Pontiac Phoenix coupe with a very rice-killing, and torqey V-6. At that time, all the Jap cars were JUNK. My dad ran a Gulf servicestation, and no-one had a foreign car in my hometown. Well, my fiance now has that old Phoenix with 250,000 kms and no major trouble. PS, when we buy a domestic car in Canada, we MEAN AMERICAN cars. Many of them are built in Ontario, and there is talk that you will lose Corvette production to our cheaper labour, is this true?

kcnewell
03-20-03, 02:26 AM
Good post Ralph! You've been doing your homework. $200 a couple of years ago I needed an alternator for a friends mid '80s Eldorado and the dealer here wanted over $200 for it! So we went to Pep boys and found that they weren't any cheaper. A trip to Auto Zone ( Pronounced " Cheap Crap" ) produced the same results! We wound up at Pick and Pull ( Self service wrecking yard ) and got a nice fresh alternator for $20 and put it on. It still works fine today......Lesson learned!
I've not heard about the production move on the 'Vette...But it wouldn't surprise me. N.A.F.T.A. Really fu*ked the American public. We now have cars that are built elsewhere that don't cost any less and are not as well made as they were when we built them ourselves! Can you say M-E-X-I-C-O? always a beacon of manufacturing exellence!......NOT!

Ralph
03-20-03, 02:49 AM
You bet. Al least some of the cars built in Ontario, like the Ford Crown Vic; Grand Marquis, Camaro; Firebird, were 5 stars for quality. A guy in my apartment parkade has a new Jetta (built in Mexico) and the oil pan FELL RIGHT OFF! You should see that mess.

kcnewell
03-20-03, 02:59 AM
I agree! The Canadian built cars and trucks are " TOP CLASS" I.M.O. But the stuff I see coming out of Mexico makes it very clear why they have no viable economy!

Katshot
03-20-03, 07:48 AM
Originally posted by kcnewell
N.A.F.T.A. Really fu*ked the American public. We now have cars that are built elsewhere that don't cost any less and are not as well made as they were when we built them ourselves! Can you say M-E-X-I-C-O? always a beacon of manufacturing exellence!......NOT!

Sounds strangly familiar ;) I told you KC, they (theOEM) make moves to benefit THEM, not US.

kcnewell
03-20-03, 09:44 AM
I knew that already, But I still maintain the same feeling as always about it! Besides, Do you think the Japanese companies somehow care more about us than the domestic ones do? Hardly! The ONLY reason they've raised their quality to the point that it is today is to live down the reputation that THEY earned early on! But instead of being able to relax their standards they have to keep them high 'cause domestic companies are building much better products now than before and are making leaps and bounds progress in the quality direction yearly. Do you honestly think that the Japanese companies have any motive that is higher than retaining/increasing market share? That is the same motive that has driven the American companies to make the amazing progress that they have in recent years. The competition has been good for us in some ways (such as quality) and bad for us in others ( it has damaged our economic stability ) I'll admit that I would drive our products before all others regardless of these issues because I've always believed that it's best to support the domestic economy than it is to send the bulk of the money outside the country to a foriegn competitor. No argument to the contrary will sway that opinion in any way as long as there is a domestic car company that uses one American manufactured part, That's what I'll be driving....period!

The N.A.F.T.A. issue is our own fault and the public could have raised a fuss and stopped it from happening. But we had all the weak arguments from the politicaly correct crowd about helping our poor downtrodden brothers across our southern borders. The old tired argument about spreading our magnificent wealth to our poor unfortunate neighbors. These same people are the first to cry when the economy tanks and they're losing money in the stock market and there are no domestic blue collar jobs to be had. What did they expect? You take the jobs away from people and move them to another country and then you sit and wait for the same guy with NO JOB to buy a new car? And then you bitch about the quality of the lesser expensive american cars that have so many major components built in a country that has NO quality standards anywhere!

Katshot
03-20-03, 01:10 PM
How do you think foreign competition has "damaged our economic stability"?

kcnewell
03-20-03, 01:23 PM
If our money leaves our country...Our economy is by virtue of that , Weaker....I cannot possibly agree with the argument that the money is going to go out anyway one way or another because it has NO basis in fact. Yes, It's true that many of our companies are now foriegn owned....But, that is a larger version of the same issue.....We're selling ourselves out! I have no control over what companys get sold to a foriegn interest but I do have control over MY money and where I spend it! I choose to spend mine here whenever possible!! If more people did that rather than make excuses about how they have no control over the situation it WOULD make a difference! When more of our people are working the economy is strong when unemployment rises and people hold on to their money it hurts the economy! This is an oversimplification to say the least and there are many other things going on that contribute to the economic fluctuations but this is a factor in it!

Katshot
03-20-03, 03:37 PM
I don't think our problem is that we've sold ourselves out. I think our biggest problem is that we have and continue to price ourselves out of the game. Slowly but surely, over the years, our out-of-control economy has caused us to become unable to be competitive in the world market. A long time ago, our higher costs were at least partially explained by our higher quality. Of course that was back when the average American took pride in what they did. Now a days, as the American work ethic sinks lower, and our attitude about personal responsibility continues to deteriorate, we will find ourselves increasingly dependent on other countries for our wants and needs.
Face it, this country has gotten fat, lazy, and money-hungry, and we are now paying for it. The problem is, that means we are on a self-destructive path. That's why I say that we can't just keep doing the "buy American" bit, and ignore the REAL problem. Just as the stock market MUST "adjust" from time to time, we must be able to adjust too. Yeah, it will hurt (just like when you get a BIG market adjustment) but, the alternative is far worse. Ignoring the problem will NOT make it go away.

jadcock
03-20-03, 04:01 PM
Originally posted by Katshot
Yeah, it will hurt but the alternative is far worse. Ignoring the problem will NOT make it go away.

Gee, those words sound vaguely familiar. Where did I hear that last...oh yeah...it was about kicking Saddam's ass. :devil:

kcnewell
03-20-03, 04:28 PM
The out of control economy?....I think I'll leave that one alone at this time!I think based on what you say, That you've fallen into the same mindset that so many people have when it comes to this subject. That is to say.....American=bad Import=good and then look for reasons to prove the theory! In all the years of owning cars I've NEVER expeienced the problems that I constantly hear people crying about with American cars! EVER! I've always maintained my vehicles well and run them HARD! I've always gotten long life and exellent service out of all of them. I do not think it's because I'm extremely lucky or better at taking care of vehicles than anyone else....BUT! I do believe it's because I don't go out of my way to look for things I can complain about on them either. I've seen plenty of imports with the same problems as domestics and I've seen plenty of interiors coming apart from lack of care in both foriegn and domestic cars. The main difference I've seen is the attitude about it! Most people with domestics blame the mfg. for crappy design and materials and most import owners blame the age of the car and the amount of use they've put it to! I really don't think theres THAT big a difference in the quality of the vehicles.....But I think there's a HUGE difference in the attitudes of people based on where the car came from REGARDLESS of actual quality! I'm not ignoring the problem because I don't really think there is much of one! I do believe however that if you look for a problem.....You'll find one.

Even if it's really not there!

elwesso
03-20-03, 06:32 PM
I agree that the life and reliability is directly related to how well it is maintained. But american cars are cheaper than foreign cars (comparing class to class), so when people buy a cheaper car, they arent going to put as much in it. Imports on the other hand, are more expensive, and are going to do things to keep them running perfect. Also, some new imports (BMW comes to mind) come a year of free maintenance.

But im sure if you took a brand new cadillac and a brand new import, and maintained them the same, their reliability would be very close. There are things we can find wrong with american, and things to find wrong with imports. I think 15 years ago, the quality of american cars was not as good imports. I could very well be wrong, but that is my conception on this.

Katshot
03-20-03, 06:42 PM
American=BAD?!
GET THE HELL OUTTA HERE!
I have a Cadillac, a GMC SUV, a Lincoln LSC, and a Nissan Sentra for my kid. Are you nuts? You couldn't be more wrong. The difference between us is that I don't ignore obvious points of low quality just because it would conflict with my professed belief of quality in a given product. Dude, you're blinded by the flag.
Don't get me wrong, I'm NOT saying you're wrong for buying them (domestic products), I just think the ridiculous way the "buy American" crowd tries to justify their purchases is wrong.
Just admit that you spend extra to get less simply because it's sold by an American company and I'll TOTALLY respect you for it. It's YOUR money and YOUR descision. But the way you and so many others try to act like the products they buy aren't REALLY lesser quality, or that it is never a problem to them because they're used to making allowances for it is absurd.
It's just like the old Harley arguments I always used to get into.
Guys would buy a Harley, and say things like "Harley's don't leak, they leave their mark", or spend un-Godly amounts of time and money making them fast (and MAYBE handle good too) and then profess how GREAT the bikes are as compared to JAP bikes. I mean come on PLEASE! Just have the security to admit that you did something totally illogical just because you wanted to. Then there's no argument. It's ok, the logic police won't come and take you away, this is America, the land of illogical people with enough ego, money, time, and creativity to do virtually whatever we want just for the hell of it.

kcnewell
03-20-03, 08:14 PM
GUILTY! I'm always blinded by the flag! And I've always agreed with you about the shortcomings of Harleys. Read my post a little more carefully though....Wes got the point that I was making. And agree or disagree, I stand by it! I think that the quality discrepancies are there but are WAY overblown. I paid over $35,000 for my Seville in '91 and I have never once thought I didn't get every pennys worth. The same goes for Every vehicle I've ever owned excluding bikes which are a whole other story.
Even My '74 MKIV that was built at the height of the quality problems for domestic cars was a GREAT car. I'll admit, I never had a Pinto, Gremlin or Chrysler K-car or any of the other masterpieces of engineering that have been foisted on the buying public over the years. But in my life MY expeience with domestic cars has been exellent!! I can't help but wonder why that freaks you out so much?

Hey Wes...If you buy a new beamer, You NEED a year of free maintenance! LOL!

elwesso
03-20-03, 08:34 PM
Sorry no bimmer for me! I think BMW has realized that their cars break all the time, so they jack up the prices and include a year of maintenance for free, making it seem like you get a great deal!

kcnewell
03-20-03, 08:53 PM
My point exactly Wes!

Katshot
03-21-03, 05:50 AM
My experience with domestic cars has been that overall, the cars are good but the dealer experience has "usually" been terrible. And it's not just the dealers, over and over, the manufacturer does not step up to the plate and stand by the product. When I was working with Cadillac, I found that they (the executives) often strangled the engineers ability to provide a better product.
It was very frustrating to all who truely just wanted to build the best car we/they could.
Overall, I find domestic cars and trucks to be ok but there are always things that "could" have been done to make them a better product. And most of the time, they are items that are NOT addressed even after the OEM is made aware of them through the dealer network. It's just a shame that the OEM is ok with selling a product that's about 80% of what it SHOULD be. How many times have you seen a domestic car/truck that you just LOVED except for a couple items that could've/should've been done different, and you asked yourself whether they were clueless or not? I do it too often.
Like I said, your purchases are your business. Everyone has to prioritise certain points they look for when looking to buy. For me it's usually bang for the buck quotient, unless it's something that I just fall in love with and buy in spite of it's obvious negatives (such as price etc.).
But some people prioritise the origin of the product. That's fine too. Like I said This is America, we're free to say and buy what we want.

kcnewell
03-21-03, 12:06 PM
NOW were getting somewhere! My experience with dealers has been similar to yours. But! My buddy Bob has had the same problems with IMPORT dealers. So much so that a few years ago he quit buying Toyotas and started buying Cadillacs based on his perception of my overall ownership experience. This guy used to swear that the only cars worth even looking at were imports! He and I used to have the same kind of debates that you and I are having right now. ( It was great! ) Then after being exposed to my cars and driving my cars and even accompanying me to the dealership a few times for things he gradually started softening his position. In '96 I was in my garage one evening working on one of my "sorely inferior" American cars when he pulled in my driveway in a brand new diamond white Seville STS! He still has that car and swears he will NEVER buy another Jap car! He's had a couple of warranty issues with it including the dreaded lower case half leak and says that Cadillac fixed the thing without any problems and made him feel like royalty in the process. He tells me every time he goes to the dealer for something that it's the only company that he's ever bought a car from that doesn't make him feel like a number. The point I'm making is this..We all look at things through the screen of prejudices that come from our experience with that particular thing. You've had your own issues with Cadillac that color your percption of the company due to your personal frustration with something that YOU thought was wrong or needed to be changed in YOUR opinion. I have had these same issues with a certain motorcycle manufacturer from the north east. I have customers that would passionatly disagree with some of my opinions....And they're right! Because the thing that I don't care for on THEIR vehicle is the very thing that they LOVE about the damned thing! Does that make the manufacturer irresponsible for making a vehicle that is 80% of what it should be? And then whos opinion are we going to base that percentage on? The 100% satisfied customer? These things we're debating here are VERY subjective and are a lot of fun to debate, But will never be resolved because of that subjectivity.

Katshot
03-21-03, 12:50 PM
You're probably right KC. It's very frustrating though. Perfect case in point; I tried for years to get Cadillac to move the trunk release out of the glovebox and over closer to the driver. They never did. Buick did in the Roadmaster and it was great, but not Cadillac. Then what was probably one of my BIGGEST bitches, the Fleetwood was the largest production car at the time with yards of open space on the interior but do you think that Cadillac would put any storage space anywhere? NO! The glovebox is so small that you can JUST BARELY fit the owner's manual in it, the center armrest is 3/4 cupholder storage and CD storage. I mean how about a map pocket on the driver's door like Lincoln had on the Town Car, or a bigger glovebox, or maybe just a couple cubbies in the dash. It just sucks when your wife uses a tissue and has no place to put it. You'll learn about that one soon ;)
Believe me, I know what you're trying to say. I know people that SWEAR by cars that are well-known as some of the biggest hunks of junk ever sold but that doesn't make me think that those cars aren't junk. It makes me wonder what those people would think of a REAL nice car.

kcnewell
03-21-03, 01:25 PM
Originally posted by Katshot

Believe me, I know what you're trying to say. I know people that SWEAR by cars that are well-known as some of the biggest hunks of junk ever sold but that doesn't make me think that those cars aren't junk. It makes me wonder what those people would think of a REAL nice car. [/B]

The point is.....Whos opinion matters? Yours? Or the individual that owns the car? Perfect case in point.....You are into Fleetwoods and can't understand why Cadillac stopped producing them. I on the other hand never particularly liked the Fleetwoods and was kind of glad to see them go. Does that make them a bad car? No! does it make me wrong for not liking the model? No! Do I think you're wrong for liking the model? NO! These are all very subjective questions with corresponding subjective answers. What IS a real nice car? Who set the criteria? By what authority? Convince me!....and then convince everyone else! It can not be done! Your opinions are correct.......To YOU! And to like minded individuals everywhere, as are mine. There is NO right answer. There can't be! There can only be strong opinions based on the experiences of the individual. And who can tell you or I that we're wrong about something that neither of us is wrong about?

:banghead: It's enough to drive you nuts! :banghead:

Katshot
03-21-03, 01:40 PM
Sorry, you're wrong, I'm right that's all ;)
I just had to say it.
You're right, the automotive world is anything but logical or practical. Hell if it were we'd all be driving Corolla's or something equally sensible (and BORING). Choice is what Americans live for. Just one trip to a supermarket tells you that. Have you ever been to a supermarket in Europe or anyother country? You walk out wondering how they can live with so few choices about everything huh?
I must admit, you are a complex guy. Given all I've come to know about you, I would generally put money on you preferring a big RWD Caddy to a small FWD one. You see, it's guys like you that TOTALLY drive marketing guys NUTS!!!
Between you, me and the fence-post though, I'll bet that if Caddy built Fleetwoods more like mine instead of the old-man type boats they did build, you'd have one then.

kcnewell
03-21-03, 02:09 PM
You have been paying attention! That's exactly the problem that I had with the Fleetwoods! I don't like the look! I also like a car that's a little more compact....That's why I drive a Seville! And I have been to the market in Europe ( nothing about it to make it a supermarket ) I'd go nuts if I had to live there. I would however have a great time debating with them about their opinions! As far as me being complex....Probably! But then look at the bright side...You didn't have to deal with raising me like my Dad did! It wasn't easy!!LOL!

I'm looking at the DeVille DTS now. I think I'm gonna wind up getting one at some point!

Katshot
03-21-03, 02:43 PM
It grew on me too. At first I thought it was butt-ugly but lately I have been noticing them more often. Especially a black one with the chrome wheels! I haven't paid attention over the last couple years as to whether they changed the car's exterior at all. Maybe that would explain why I seem to like them all of a sudden. If not....does that mean that someday I might actually think the CTS looks good? NAAAA!
As for your dad, like it or not, he had a lot to do with who you are so rather than feel sorry for him, humanity should BLAME HIM ;)
Actually, all kidding aside, he should be commended on the job he did. You might be a pain in the ass but you're my kind of pain in the ass.

kcnewell
03-21-03, 04:09 PM
Thanks Kevin, We probably have more in common than one would think.....They haven't changed the outside of the DeVilles since the major facelift a couple of years ago....So maybe there is hope for you after all! I agree with you on the color That car looks real mean in black with the chrome wheels!

Elvis
03-21-03, 05:12 PM
Originally posted by kcnewell
In all the years of owning cars I've NEVER expeienced the problems that I constantly hear people crying about with American cars! EVER!

Absolutely right on the money!

Of course, I've never bought a Chrysler product, either.

But even the Fords and Mercurys I've owned were pretty solid vehicles for the 40,000 miles or so that I owned them.

I sold my '81 cutlass to a guy when it had about 45,000 miles on it, and he put another 100,000 on it before he sold it. He told me that I hadn't even broken it in yet.

Maybe I hear things that need attention, and take care of them before they become a big problem? Maybe I'm more careful about starting a car in the morning? Maybe I'm more "religious" about routine maintenance?

I dunno, but I've either been really lucky for the last 24 years, or else I'm doing something right.

jadcock
03-21-03, 06:42 PM
I dunno... I've never had a problem with American cars either. Then again, I always wait a few minutes before I drive off in the morning, always keep the oil changed regularly, etc. Back in my younger years, my parents would get annoyed that I'd let the car idle in the morning. They'd just start it and drive right off. On the flip side, I'm not the one who sold the 105k mile Crown Vic because I didn't trust it anymore (my mom did). Luckily, she bought the Caddy, which I then bought...so it all turned out okay. :)

I also get the comment everytime I have a car in the shop that my car is the cleanest one the mechanic has seen. I had my 174k mile Nissan truck in for a new muffler and tailpipe the other day and the guy said it was the cleanest Nissan truck he's ever seen, especially for the miles. I agreed. :) When I had my '84 Cutlass, NOBODY had a cleaner car in town than I. It took a lot of work to make my only car a 1st place car show winner (got two first places with that car). Cleanliness and maintenance go a long way, no matter what side of the ocean made the car.

Chuck C
03-21-03, 06:45 PM
Man this thread got loooooongg!!!! lovin it baby!

kcnewell
03-21-03, 07:04 PM
Yeah, That's'cause me and Katshot hijacked it! AGAIN!

Shhhhhhh! Don't tell Wes!

Mad'lac
03-21-03, 07:19 PM
Could this thread be brain-fart proof?

Katshot
03-21-03, 08:09 PM
Not as long as YOU'RE here ;)

kcnewell
03-21-03, 10:37 PM
Originally posted by Mad'lac
Could this thread be brain-fart proof?

Thought it was a safe question didn't Ya? :D
Then Katshot comes along and whacks Ya!

I thought that was my job!:banghead:

Mad'lac
03-21-03, 11:11 PM
Yeah I was preparing myself for something you would have said and along comes Katshot and hits me with a steel chair to the back of my head. Never saw that one coming!!!!!Never ever turn your back to a Yankee.

kcnewell
03-21-03, 11:34 PM
Yeah! We make a helluva team.....You think we're so busy beating the crap out of each other that we don't even know you're there. Then.....Bam! We both hit you when you least expect it!

Katshot
03-22-03, 07:10 AM
Helluva tag-team :D

Mad'lac
03-22-03, 11:59 AM
So which one of you is Hawk and which one is Animal?Where is your shady weasel of a manager?

Liseckas
03-25-03, 09:22 PM
Hey, I don't know if a '95 is still considered as a new car, but my folks '95 Eldorado has been a real lemon to them. The thing that really pissed them off was when the tranny gave out at 60K. They're never gonna buy another new Caddy much less another GM. Heck my dad recently did something quite unthinkable, he bought a F*** ( the other "F" word) Excursion. They still have the Eldo.

Katshot
03-26-03, 08:07 AM
Dad's not going to be happy with that boat either. It's one of the leaders in the recently released "lemon list". Just another reason why Ford discontinued it.

kcnewell
03-26-03, 09:03 AM
They should have called it the Furd Explosion! The thing is more of a P.O.S. than most of the other junk they build!

Katshot
03-26-03, 09:47 AM
Unfortunately, that appears to be true.
Overall I like Ford trucks better than any other brand. Currently, I'm having less than stellar success with GMC concerning our '01 Denali.

kcnewell
03-26-03, 09:52 AM
Rather than have you and I hijack yet another forum with a discussion about trucks. I'll suffice it to say that I don't like that make of truck!


Pretty diplomatic! Yes?:D

kcnewell
03-26-03, 09:54 AM
Don't like their cars either! By the way!

Katshot
03-26-03, 10:02 AM
You just don't like FORD KC. You're a GM man, I know ;)
But if you had to take a truck back to the dealer 5 times to get rid of a loud belt noise, you'd be showing up looking to step on someone's neck. And this is just one of the problems with this truck.
This is the BIGGEST problem with me and new vehicles. Having to wait for some idiot dealer tech to figure out the problem and fix it. That, and trying to convince the dealer that just because "they all do that", it doesn't mean they SHOULD all do that. If I have one more dealer tech/service writer tell me that something is "normal" for a given model, I swear I'll strangle someone!!!

kcnewell
03-26-03, 10:37 AM
Now you're starting to sound like me! I like it! I just had this conversation yesterday with a customer in the shop about a certain American motorcycle company ( To remain un-named ) and their idiot techs!

jadcock
03-26-03, 11:47 AM
I don't put much stock in those "lemon lists", wherever they come from. My parents bought a '96 Grand Cherokee (and now my brother has it). That Jeep GC is on about every lemon list out there but that thing has been solid as a rock. We've taken it on multiple Jeep Jamborees and lots of off-roading. We've broken control arms and twisted transmission skid plates on that thing...we've put it through serious service and it hasn't missed a beat. It also towed our 7000-lb travel trailer, at least until we got our Ford truck, which is on another supposed lemon list apparently. We had a 2000 F-550 (sister to the Excursion). We had the Powerstroke in it, and chipped it up to some pretty good boost (up to 30 lbs. under load). The boost was so high, it'd sometimes blow off the turbo outlet tube! It took all that abuse and just smiled back at us, pulling my folks' 23,000-lb 5th wheel travel trailer the whole time. He got rid of that truck, though, because it didn't have enough power, or enough brakes for that big trailer. Now he's got an F-650 Super Crewzer.

...All part of the reasons for my love of our durable and reliable American vehicles. :thumbsup:

elwesso
03-26-03, 07:09 PM
I guess people think people think american cars suck because there are more people that complain about the minority of cars that arent too reliable (probably because of bad maintenance), but the vast majority of american cars are reliable. I have heard of some getting up close to 300k! Thats a lot of miles, not too many car companies can boast about without a couple engine/tranny rebuilds.

Katshot
03-26-03, 07:27 PM
Of course there is the idea that a small but vocal group can have the same presence as a large non-vocal one but I think that in the case of domestic vs. import car reliability, you have to look at the facts. And they are that "overall" the domestic cars tend to be slightly less reliable.
I feel that this because the domestic manufacturers are always running behind with respect to product developement. So by the time they rush a car into production and it actually starts hitting the streets, they are already working on the "next big thing" and are less than concerned with fixing issues that arise from the dealer network as a result of customer complaints.
I have first-hand experience with this with Cadillac. The engineers are willing to listen to customer issues but there is the underlying feeling that only severe issues will be given the funds required to resolve them.
On the flip-side, I think that the import companies work more bugs out PRIOR to introduction, and they seem to be willing to spend more on resolving issues on current product.

Ralph
03-30-03, 02:34 AM
I agree Kat, the imports and some others are usually proven in Europe or Asia before they are released in NA. Examples are the Ford Focus, it was in Europe 2 years before the NA arrival, and the soon to NA Mitsubishi EVO, etc. Anything mechanical will eventually breakdown, I don't care what company it is. Don't forget, it was only in the last 20 years or so that the imports started to get good. American cars were out for a 115 years now and that is an accomplishment. I'll take domestic, the parts are plenty cheaper.

elwesso
03-30-03, 09:13 AM
Yes, parts are cheaper, and in abundance. I had to order belts for my Q, no telling what else Ill have to order.

jadcock
03-30-03, 09:11 PM
Originally posted by Ralph
I agree Kat, the imports and some others are usually proven in Europe or Asia before they are released in NA. Examples are the Ford Focus, it was in Europe 2 years before the NA arrival, and the soon to NA Mitsubishi EVO, etc. Anything mechanical will eventually breakdown, I don't care what company it is. Don't forget, it was only in the last 20 years or so that the imports started to get good. American cars were out for a 115 years now and that is an accomplishment. I'll take domestic, the parts are plenty cheaper.

Interesting. This probably explains some why folks overseas LOVE American cars. I guy on another Caddy forum said his Cadillac is like an exotic over there. People trade in their BMWs for Dodge pickups. Here, it seems that's the opposite.

The grass is always greener on the other side...

elwesso
03-30-03, 09:17 PM
Very interesting. I would think people over there would be getting the BMWs and mercedes.

Brett
03-30-03, 09:22 PM
hey Jason you were probably just speaking generally, but dodge doesnt currently sell in Europe


http://www.automotivedigest.com/view_art.asp?articlesID=8669

kcnewell
03-30-03, 11:33 PM
Originally posted by elwesso
Very interesting. I would think people over there would be getting the BMWs and mercedes.

The funny thing about it is.....My friends in Europe think that American cars are the best and envy us being able to get them so easily. They feel about Mercedes and BMW's the way I feel about Fords! Possibly they think because they're expensive and hard to get that they're better.....Sound familiar?

kcnewell
03-30-03, 11:34 PM
Don't ask!:banghead:

jadcock
03-31-03, 08:12 AM
Originally posted by Brett
hey Jason you were probably just speaking generally, but dodge doesnt currently sell in Europe


http://www.automotivedigest.com/view_art.asp?articlesID=8669

Brett, yeah, I was speaking generally... Actually, I was just quoting a post from another forum. I didn't know that Dodge didn't sell anything in Europe--suspect that might change soon, being owned by Diamler. :)

Ralph
04-01-03, 12:41 AM
Does all the technology in modern cars make them more reliable, or less reliable?

kcnewell
04-01-03, 02:11 AM
It can go either way Ralph! In some cases the technology makes them more reliable by rendering them a little more idiot proof! The'll tell you what they need more than they used to. That give you a chance to not ruin them with neglect. Although you still have to do the maintenance that they require ( That challenges some folks! ) The flip side of this is that there are a lot more things that are subject to eventual failure involved in this technology. When they're new or near new they're great....Later on there is potential for disaster! Having said that I've got to add that there are plenty of early to mid '80s Cadillacs running around out there with no problems. The computers in these early models are holding up quite well. The point is that those early computers were VERY primitive by todays standards and they're still working every day! The newer ones are infinetly more reliable...So it will be interesting to see how many years they last.

jadcock
04-01-03, 08:42 AM
Like KC said, there are certainly plusses and minuses to the technology. For example, distributorless ignitions. No more rotors and caps to replace or get carboned up. No more points to set (points went out with HEI in GM cars). No more timing to get out of whack. Basically, all those mechanical moving parts are now moved to a solid state setup where everything is electronic. Maintenance-free, right? Well, if that ignition module goes out, or something equally damaging happens, you're still stuck on the road!

There are a million other examples of both good and bad. I'm sure others will have more input. That's a great question -- and this can be a great discussion!

kcnewell
04-01-03, 09:16 AM
Originally posted by Ralph
Does all the technology in modern cars make them more reliable, or less reliable?

I'm almost thinkin that this should have been a new thread starter!:D

elwesso
04-01-03, 03:32 PM
Get the moderator on the horn!!!!!!!!!

Overall, I think that technology makes them more reliable, because sensors and computer can replace actual moving parts. But it can also be bad--- For instance: If some sensors go bad (an o2 or MAF comes to mind), the car will still run, but not right. It usually is a decrease in performance and/or fuel economy. But when these systems are running right, that makes the car run its best all the time. O2 sensors have to be one of the best, because trying to adjust a carb. so that its lean enough at idle so it doesnt stumble, and rich enough for the best WOT performance is basically impossible.

But, again it can make things bad. The early BMW 7 series comes to mind. Those computers are notorious for going bad, and when they do the car doesnt run or goes into limp home mode. There are actually many computers onboard. So if 1 goes out, then the rest arent going to run right. An early BMW 750iL is the best way to fund your local shop!!

Technology in its simplist form will be the most reliable, and more complicated will be less reliable, although it is getting better. Very rarely do you see computers just not working anymore, unless of course water or something else got inside.

Ralph
04-01-03, 11:38 PM
I just think there is too much crap in cars these days. It is getting difficult to do a simple tune-up w/o fear of screwing up the computer. I don't like the re-programming procedure for the Caddy when the battery is disconnected. I think it takes 20 mins in all. In my Grand Marquis (yes a F*** KC) you had ten minutes to change the battery or the computer could get damaged and the car would run rough for quite a while. My friends Honda Civic's computer was so smart, it actually LEARNED things. For example: change the plugs, the computer learned; change the air filter, the computer learned, ditto for other minor things, anyway, when it had 100,000 kms on it (62,000 miles) the tach was so wavy with a wide range that the dealer had to charge 500 dollars to re-program it! Later we found out from a Chilton repair manual that all you do to re-program it was disconnect the battery for 10 mins, no more, no less!

kcnewell
04-02-03, 09:43 AM
A FURD????? Say it aint so!.......I know, you can blame it on the Canadian Prime Minister! The things that rotten government makes you do....It's terrible!

elwesso
04-02-03, 03:23 PM
I agree ralph. They should try and make the computers more user friendly. What I liked about my Q, is that they came standard with a factory service manual!!! Mine doesnt have it with it though :(

Ralph
04-03-03, 12:34 AM
Originally posted by elwesso
I agree ralph. They should try and make the computers more user friendly. What I liked about my Q, is that they came standard with a factory service manual!!! Mine doesnt have it with it though :(

Actually KC I probably did try to blame it on our fearless leader, but....................oh yea, they kicked me out of the Parlament building. Elwesso, I know the car comes with an owner's manual, you mean the computer itself has it's own manual!? Must be tricky to program? Are there any special procedures? Sounds like a bugger.

elwesso
04-03-03, 08:17 PM
No what I was saying is it comes with a service manual, like the ones shops use, not just for the computer. There really isnt any effective OBD, basically all there is you put the comp. in diagnostics mode and cound the flashes it makes. To really get good diagnostics, you need to hook it up to a consult, which is the diagnostic tool for the Q. There really isnt anything to program in without this tool.

kcnewell
04-03-03, 08:26 PM
So what you're saying is....It's not as cool as a Cadillac system 'cause the Cadillac system is somewhat programable. If you know how to use it you can change the settings on some of your options such as the suspension Through the D.I.C.

elwesso
04-03-03, 08:37 PM
No its nowhere near as cool as the cadillac system. You cant change anything without the consult. It sucks, but it makes it more idiot proof, no one can really mess it up. There really arent too many things to change though, it doesnt have any RSS or anything. And the engine is all fine tuned anyway, so you wouldnt want to mess it up. This is one complicated piece of rice!

Ralph
04-04-03, 12:48 AM
OK, I got it, thanks.

steelerfan
04-28-03, 07:33 PM
Gotta get my say in this. This year I broke down and bought my first Japanese car ( a Toyota Sienna). Two days ago I bought my first Cadillac. As for the Sienna, it has been in the shop for multiple problems. Am Radio quit, Belts squeal, brakes squeal. Threads on leather interior coming apart. And on top of it Toyota has potential Sludge problem and now I need to change my oil every 3K and do it at the dealer to insure no problems exit. Also they have a very marginal warranty. 1 year bumper to bumper and 3 years drivetrain. So I'm not impressed with toyota. Also dealer service is poor. Now, I have bought my thrid car from Pontiac Cadillac dealer, there service was excellent and problems on cars were always minor. One last thing to remember. Japanese cars go first to thier home market and only after initial quality issues are worked out do they bring them to US.

Ralph
04-29-03, 01:06 AM
That's interesting. I'd like to know if Toyota is as reliable as Honda (I hear good things about the Accord) and if the quality issues are worked out overseas, why was yours so bad? PS from other cars I know how stressful repairs can be. How many computers on the Toyota, ie. engine management, level ride, climate control, etc?

steelerfan
04-29-03, 11:24 AM
I wouldn't say it is so bad. My wife loves her Sienna, no rattles inside and after brake and belt ajustment car is real quiet and solid. As for the Oil sludge, the only motor with the issue is the one in the Avalon, Sienna, and Lexus 3000. But cars that are babied with 3K oil changes and regular maintainance don't show issue. The problem showed up mainly on cars that pushed the oil change to the 7K limit. As to quality issues, once they were fixed the van is great. But in 1 year time I have been to dealer 7 to 8 times. Before this I had a Pontiac Montana van. this also was at dealer for various issues, Window squeaks, electric door trim. So I can't say either my Pontiac van was a world beater better, but the Pontiac/Cadillac Service was much better than the Toyota dealer and much more responsive. This is why I went back to them to buy my car and went for the Cadillac. I know the dealer will take good care of my car and me.

BeelzeBob
04-29-03, 01:16 PM
Regarding Toyota, they have the highest reliability rating out of all cars. Their luxury division - Lexus - has been noted as having the best customer service in the business.. So, you do get what you pay for. The more you spend, the better service you get...

Ralph
04-30-03, 01:20 AM
A car dealer told me about the memo all dealerships get. He said that Lexus was the most reliable vehicle of all, Honda was 4th, Kia and Land Rover were supposedly at the bottom and the worse. I should have checked Cadillac. I still would never buy a Toyota or a Lexus, they just seem so boring to me, especially the Camry, which I am sure is a good car but just doesn't interest me.

Astronomer
04-30-03, 08:09 AM
I agree with Ralph......I know the Toyota Camry happens to be the best selling vehicle on the planet right now.....but so what? Mcdonald's makes the best selling hamburger too and I don't like those either. If I'm going to shell out my hard earned money for a car........I have to be excited by a lot more than reliabilty. Reliability needs to be a given in a new automobile. Those that would buy Camrys are claiming that they are very practical people and won't let themselves get too interested in a car that does'nt have the utmost in reliability ratings as stated by (you pick the source). Maybe my patriotism is getting the best of me here but come on Cadillac I know you can compete on a world stage.......and I'm willing to give you a chance by putting my money where my mouth is. This might turn out to be a foolish bet on my part, but I just can't conceive of of my country and our citizens as those that can only sell things that other people make. I know......some might say I'm arrogant in that view......but I'm still going to hold to it :burn:

BeelzeBob
04-30-03, 09:09 AM
While most of Toyota is boring to me too, don't forget the Twin Turbo Supra.. The Lexus LS, GS and SC are pretty darn nice too.. AND they're all reliable..

Don't feel bad about stating your desire for Cadillac to BECOME a great competitor in regards to reliability.. This site isn't just here to kiss Cadillac's ass.. It's here to help them in more ways than just that.. Sometimes we need to speak out about how we feel about things - instead of just rubbing their asses...

kcnewell
04-30-03, 09:10 AM
I like it!

Liseckas
04-30-03, 07:10 PM
I've never owned a Japanese car that I liked. They were dependable in the beginning but after a few years they were the biggest POS cars that they could be. The parts are expensive and you have to have tiny hands to work on them. My hands often looked like they went through a meat grinder after doing even the most basic service such as an oil change. I even had one of those camry's, a 92 year model and it was the biggest POS of them all! Quality? BS! The toyotas are the most overrated s**t boxes on this earth. I'll never own another jap crap car ever again!:mad: :mad: :mad: :vomit:

BeelzeBob
04-30-03, 07:26 PM
If you were to buy any new car right now, what would it be? Within a reasonable price range...

kcnewell
04-30-03, 09:45 PM
DeVille DTS! Seville STS! Either one.......No other.

Liseckas
04-30-03, 10:16 PM
Any of the three Escalade models.
The only BIG Cadillacs.
V8 power and lots of it!:burn:

Ralph
04-30-03, 11:38 PM
I hear what you're saying, but its just hard to think Hondas are bad quality. They seem to come out on top of all the quality surveys and reports all the time. I would not say no to a new Honda Accord, as I have recently test driven one and it seems OK. I was flirting with the idea of selling my Caddy because I was offered a more than reasonable price for it. I have the guy's card but I cannot bring myself to call him to sell it. This has been tearing at me for more than a week, but it keeps comming back to the fact that imports seem so damn boring to me. I know parts are expensive to fix imports, but does anybody know how expensive they are COMPARED to a Cadillac FWD? I will however keep my car for now and am a little embarrassed that I considered this, but I just don't know yet.

elwesso
05-01-03, 04:55 PM
I would get a cadillac, but would trade it in before the factory warranty expired, unless it was just completely rock solid.

AirJigga25
05-01-03, 05:06 PM
This room is whacked

Liseckas
05-01-03, 09:24 PM
Originally posted by Ralph
I hear what you're saying, but its just hard to think Hondas are bad quality. They seem to come out on top of all the quality surveys and reports all the time. I would not say no to a new Honda Accord, as I have recently test driven one and it seems OK. I was flirting with the idea of selling my Caddy because I was offered a more than reasonable price for it. I have the guy's card but I cannot bring myself to call him to sell it. This has been tearing at me for more than a week, but it keeps comming back to the fact that imports seem so damn boring to me. I know parts are expensive to fix imports, but does anybody know how expensive they are COMPARED to a Cadillac FWD? I will however keep my car for now and am a little embarrassed that I considered this, but I just don't know yet.

I know it's hard not to be swayed by any new car, but you need to be strong and resist the urge to get rid of "old faithful". After you drive the new car for a few weeks the novelty will wear off and you will be driving another "used" car. You Cadillac is paid for and with the new car you'll be stuck with payments.:contract:

elwesso
05-01-03, 09:36 PM
I agree. The new car is great to have, but after a couple weeks, its just another car. Also, notice within those first few weeks, you keep it real clean, inside and out. But then after a month or so, the center console has all kinds of crap in it, floor looks bad, etc.

As far as parts are concerned, they should be cheaper than cadillac FWD, depending on the car. If you get a honda or toyota where dealerships are abundant and close, it shouldnt be a problem. But even if you were to get a lexus or infiniti, most parts need to be ordered and are not interchangeable with their other brands. I dont think they will be much cheaper, but some.

Liseckas
05-01-03, 10:17 PM
The common parts like filters and plugs usually cost twice as much for my toyotas than they did for my GM's. The rest of the parts were not cheap either. You don't need to go to the dealer for the GM parts as you usually have to for the toyota's and I'm sure the honda's as well.
Keep the Cadillac! You won't dump as much money into it as you will with the payments you'll have for the honda.

elwesso
05-01-03, 10:30 PM
Yes, certain things are more. But now, you can get cheap parts over the internet anyway.

kcnewell
05-02-03, 12:25 AM
Yeah, And no matter how much the parts cost, You'll still be driving RICE! Better you than me....

Revrend
05-02-03, 12:29 AM
...I guess I am a failure, I only made it through the first 4 pages of this...but whatever happened to buying the car that you want? The car that best fits your individual needs? If I wanted a nice lil econo box, you would see me in a civic, or a VW, not a cavalier or a focus. I am now looking for my next car...and it might possibly be a luxury car, it might be an SUV, but today alone, this board has made me pretty certain that it will no longer be a Caddy.

kcnewell
05-02-03, 12:36 AM
?????????????Imagine that!

Ralph
05-02-03, 01:20 AM
Originally posted by Revrend
...I guess I am a failure, I only made it through the first 4 pages of this...but whatever happened to buying the car that you want? The car that best fits your individual needs? If I wanted a nice lil econo box, you would see me in a civic, or a VW, not a cavalier or a focus. I am now looking for my next car...and it might possibly be a luxury car, it might be an SUV, but today alone, this board has made me pretty certain that it will no longer be a Caddy.

Thanks EVERYONE for all the helpful input! Reverend, you and I seem to think alike on smaller cars. I tend to find the larger imports boring, probably because they seem to cost so much. I also would not buy a Focus or a Cavalier, I might go for the name synonomus with compact quality, Honda! However I test drove a Saturn Ion today, and was VERY impressed, you must do the same. At least they are made in Tennessee. You all have convinced me to KEEP the Cadillac but you should know something, I was offered just enough to get a new Ion, Civic, Focus or Cavalier, Neon, etc WITHOUT making any payments. It would indeed be enough for any of these. Even with this incentive and warrenty to boot, I can't bring myself to do it, the Caddy is too luxurious and beautiful to get rid of, plus I would have major seperation anxiety and probably cry for a month afterwards! Reverend, hang in there Caddys are the finest luxury cars out there, no one can convince me otherwise!:tisk:

Revrend
05-02-03, 11:08 AM
I don't doubt that caddies are nice cars, and I am not saying I am going to buy an import just because it is an import. I guess the alcohol in me last night was just enough to keep me from elaborating on my point. My point simply was that I don't look at a car as import vs. domestic, I look at it from a performance point of view.

I used to run a performance tuning shop, and we did work primarily with imports (gotta do what the customer wants!) however, we did have our share of time with domestics. It all comes down to what you want.

The car that made me fall in love with cars, was my roomates 1993 Mazda RX7. Fast as shit, handled like nothing I have been in, and rode like shit. This car made me love cars that could handle well. Then I had my grandpas 2000 Buick LeSabre for 2 weeks, and later did a full road trip in it (4 days, 2000+ miles all with me behind the wheel) This car made me fall in love with luxury cars. Meanwhile, I had spent a lot of time riding around in Subaru Impreza's, and working on a rally track that we owned. So this made me fall in love with AWD cars that handle.

Talk about a dilemma for what to get for your next car! So, I buy the thing that should keep me happy. A 1982 VW Scirocco. Planned on setting it up as a lil rally car, but an efficient daily driver (28 mile commute each day). Sadly, that car never ran well. I had to park it, to purchase something that would run. So, I hit up the car lots. My previous car was given to my little sister, and mom took over the payments, so that has a car loan already in my name, we can't get that out till she turns 18. So, it was really hard to get financed for 2 cars, when you are 20. I ended being offered a Ford Ranger, or a Ford Escort. The pride in me took the truck. Huge mistake. I have hated it every day that I drove it...however it has been more then reliable.

So, I started looking for what my NEXT car will be as soon as this truck can get out of my name (9 more months!!) Being young and indecisive, I have thought about, and researched, almost everything. BMW's, Lincoln Mark VIII's, Caddies, Expeditions, Durango's, Navigators, Dodge Ram Diesels. It changes all the time. I opted out of the BMW's, due to spending a lot of time on their chat board, and learning that while great handling, great performing cars, they still have a buncha issues, and break a lot...and cost a lot. Now reading this post, and another of the same nature, on this board, has opened my eyes to the same thing happening to the Caddies. I don't plan on dropping more then 15k down to purchase the car, and after that, I won't be able to afford high maintenance on anything I get.

More later, I should probably do some of this work that is glaring me in the face....

Katshot
05-02-03, 01:17 PM
Damn have you gone over a lot of different vehicles.
I have to point out that Cadillac, like virtually every other luxury vehicle on the planet is so overburdened with features that it really complicates the car and SERIOUSLY increases the likelihood of problems.
Cadillac truely IS the technology leader in American cars and therefore DOES have a far greater chance of having something go wrong. The issue as I see it, is not whether there are more failures, but how are they addressed? If the dealer were to quickly and accurately diagnose and repair these problems as they arise, and treat the customer with a greater amount of respect and honesty, I think the overall ownership experience would still be viewed as overwhelmingly good.
The problem Cadillac has is that the cars break, the dealers don't care, or actually try to weasel out of the warranty claim, or do a half-assed repair that haunts the owner again in the future. All the while, they are treated like cattle at best at the service department. The dealer generally never shows any true concern over the customer's wants or needs and treats you as though you just drove up in a Hyundai.
So bottom line, I feel the root cause of Cadillac's market woes is this; they can build a top of the line vehicle but don't "completely". They try to sell the customer on the notion that the Cadillac product is above all others and that you ascend to a higher level as a Cadillac owner yet they refuse to treat those customers any differently then they would a Cavalier customer (nothing personal to Cavalier owners).
In all fairness to Cadillac, they are not alone in this practice. The only marque that I can personally say does, in fact treat thier customers as royalty is Lexus, and I feel that is constantly reflected in published statistics.

elwesso
05-02-03, 04:16 PM
Reverend, I think you should look into a Q45 like mine. Being completely unbiased :halo: , they are, IMO, as good, if not better in certain respects as lexus. I got mine for 5500 (94 w/120k), and lexus in that year/mileage were about 12k. And they are just as reliable, i have heard of them going to 250k no problem (many people on another board have 250k+ on theirs, and still run great). There is also a guy in Georgia that owns an infiniti dealership and has a Q that is at 400k.

Email me off board if you would like some more information.

Liseckas
05-03-03, 12:41 PM
Has anyone looked into a Mercedes? I would suggest looking into the W123 series (better known as 240D, 280E, 300D) built from 1977 to 1985. These cars were available in gas or diesel and they last forever especially the diesels. They are relatively inexpensive now and the parts can be found for cheaper prices than the jap crap cars. I picked up one of these Benzes during the time gas prices exploded for cheap and I'm still driving it. I love it! It's built like a tank and runs like one as well. It's got plenty of room for my 6'-3" frame. It's got 214,000 miles on it now and it still runs and drives like new. I've got all the service records on this car from new and it never needed anything other than the regular maintenance items like filters and brakes. Now that's a good car!

elwesso
05-04-03, 12:23 AM
Yes!! Older MBz were awesome cars, they last forever. I once saw a 88 300se I think with 480k!! It looked almost new, and had only had 1 engine rebuild and 1 tranny rebuild. Too bad BMWs arent as good!! If I were to go german, it would be MB.

Liseckas
05-04-03, 12:30 PM
There is also a "Million Mile" club for Mercedes owners. I've never heard of any other make capable of boasting such a milestone other than the big trucks like Kenworth, Peterbilt, Freightliner, etc.

elwesso
05-04-03, 12:33 PM
Thats really cool, i didnt know there were that many that could last 1,000,000 miles. Thats over 330 oil changes!

Liseckas
05-05-03, 07:25 PM
I'm sure these M-B cars that had reached the million mile mark may have had an engine rebuild or two. I have not found any info about the million mile club for M-B cars but I have documentation about a few million mile M-B's. They do exist.

BeelzeBob
05-05-03, 11:06 PM
Actually, getting back on the Caddy subject - I was treated like royalty by my Cadillac dealer.. They really did roll out the red carpet when you brought your car in. And, they never gave me any problems with the warranty... I had an excellent experience with my dealer, Sarant Cadillac - and that alone is a big factor in buying my next car...

Yes, Cadillacs break down - and it's because of technology - just like with other car companies.. If you want a high-tech luxury vehicle - you're going to have to deal with problems. The only luxury vehicles I know of that have an amazing track record regarding reliability - are built by Lexus. But, you're trade-off is style. You can't really put a Lexus next to a Cadillac and like the Lexus very much..

Ralph
05-06-03, 01:08 AM
Plus I phoned today to the Cadillac dealer and the Honda dealer just to compare prices for a new muffler. Guess who charges more.......................Honda 250 dollars to 110 Caddy. Glad I didn't sell! PS I was treated quite well at the Cadillac dealer as well, but I think the guy resented me a little being younger than him in a better car. hehe.

BeelzeBob
05-06-03, 01:52 AM
Yeah, there was a guy like that at Sarant too. Especially since I had long, long hair at the time. I looked like I was in my early 20's with long hair and probably driving a much nicer car than he was..

Whatever...

elwesso
05-06-03, 05:29 PM
Too bad for him.....

I know what you mean, Im driving a Q45, and at the country club where I work, i have a nicer car than 60% of the people.

Ralph
05-12-03, 03:04 AM
Problem is, I'm developing a real Napolean Complex thinking I'm better than the guy next to me at the lights in a Lexus or a Beamer, and guess what I AM!!

Katshot
05-12-03, 07:44 AM
Originally posted by Ralph
Problem is, I'm developing a real Napolean Complex thinking I'm better than the guy next to me at the lights in a Lexus or a Beamer, and guess what I AM!!

:histeric:

kcnewell
05-12-03, 08:02 AM
Take a pill Ralph!.........

Ralph
05-13-03, 12:54 AM
Originally posted by kcnewell
Take a pill Ralph!.........


Yes, pills are goooood, very goooood.;) :cool:

elwesso
05-14-03, 06:34 PM
MMMMMMMMM. GOOD!

majax
04-19-04, 11:04 PM
Cadillac reliability is still relatively good except for the STS(98-00) there are a few problems with it like it burns oil , trany is bad. Read the longterm test for the 98STS on edmunds.com. the 2000- is better than the 98 but still iffy. As for DeVille and the rest the line up they are not nearly as problematic and have acceptable reliability. I bet hte 2005 STS will live up to better standards in reliability