: NEW! Dodge Challenger R/T pics *interior & exterior*



Blackout
12-22-05, 06:40 AM
Still not feeling it too much but i know some of you were liking it so here are the pics! Enjoy

http://forums.autoweek.com/servlet/JiveServlet/download/31-24942-567237-25693/2008%20Challenger%20003.jpg

http://forums.autoweek.com/servlet/JiveServlet/download/31-24942-567237-25691/2008%20Challenger%20001.jpg

http://forums.autoweek.com/servlet/JiveServlet/download/31-24942-567237-25690/2008%20Challenger%20000.jpg

http://forums.autoweek.com/servlet/JiveServlet/download/31-24942-567237-25692/2008%20Challenger%20002.jpg

urbanski
12-22-05, 07:06 AM
lol
it looks like its pissed off!

deskjockey
12-22-05, 07:35 AM
that is a crap box, in my humble, yet accurate opinion.

70eldo
12-22-05, 08:32 AM
It looks like a big Datsun :D

http://www.samisplace.com/datsunk-gt/datsun.gif

Sandy
12-22-05, 09:09 AM
NO WAY!! THAT'S A TERRIFIC FOLLOW-UP

Without skipping a beat, it's like a 1975 facelift of the original. I don't like the front grille, that coulda been done smoother, but the rest is great! Like the Challenger that wasn't made for 1975. Imagine when the SRT-8 goes under the hood with 425 HP !

Katshot
12-22-05, 09:14 AM
I'm in LOVE! I wouldn't change a thing (except the color). I especially like the retro-looking seat stitching. Am I nuts or are those seats SERIOUSLY bolstered?

turbojimmy
12-22-05, 09:25 AM
Anyone want to buy a DTS?

Jim

Randy_W
12-22-05, 09:26 AM
I like the basic look, it's obviously 300/Charger based. That makes the sides look to tall in relationship to the roof and the tail lights look like they came from a '68 Barracuda. A few small changes and you have a great car .

Rolex
12-22-05, 09:31 AM
That will be a seller alright. I think it has great lines but, as said above, the grill blows. All it needs is that 6.1 liter 425 hp SRT engine and it will be awesome.

Randy_W
12-22-05, 09:40 AM
Rolex, I like the Robert E Lee avatar!:cool2:

Sandy
12-22-05, 10:06 AM
error see below

Sandy
12-22-05, 10:08 AM
The 6.1 will be the option, with either an 4 speed auto or a 6-speed Close Ratio stick. Look for a 4.10:1 Gearing

Katshot
12-22-05, 10:29 AM
I wish the industry would come up with a decent 4 or 5-speed manual for these new high-power applications. A 6-speed is ridiculous. If it were me, I'd do a 5-speed with the 5th gear being only a tall overdrive gear for cruising. You get over 400lb/ft of torque in a little car like these, you DON'T need 6 gears!
That being said, you're probably right Sandy but I seriously doubt you'll see 410 gears. None of the SRT cars use anything near that and they do just fine. Besides, the Hemi is anything but thrifty with respect to gas mileage so I doubt they'd ever saddle one with such short legs.

I~LUV~Caddys8792
12-22-05, 10:46 AM
Wow that car looks amazing! This really brings up D/C in my book!

Forget the Ford GT or the 05 Mustang, this is the coolest retro designed muscle car I have ever seen!

DopeStar 156
12-22-05, 10:48 AM
Mmmmmm...... See.... To me, it looks dated. Especially the windows on the side. They shoulda modernized the side and the roofline...... I'm not a huge Mopar fan so I'm not enticed.....

Sandy
12-22-05, 11:07 AM
If they changed the side character line, or the windows, or the hood or the short rear deck it would not be retro and therefore would not LOOK like a Challenger, so might as well call it any other name. Having sold them new in 1970-1974 I am very partial to them. They were good cars. I could be real tmepted to buy a SRT-8 / Automatic ~ but I think here in New Jersey the insurance would be staggering. I wanna wait to see the 2007 IMPERIAL. I'll probably go for that. Black Out.

Destroyer
12-22-05, 11:34 AM
How cool will it be too have ALL the musclecars back?. GM needs to re-do the exterior of the GTO, Chrysler needs to come out with this car since it kinda did things all wrong with the Charger (although I still would take an SRT8). Still the cycle is almost complete. With the new Stang, a retro Z28 in the works, Challenger, GTO.........its the 60-early 70's all over again but with better chassis, comfort, and performance........hell yes!. The SSR is also a formidable retro musclecar. Now we need a strong RWD retro '70 Chevelle and Buick GS. Too bad Oldsmobile is now gone, a retro 442 would have been sweet.

Katshot
12-22-05, 11:51 AM
How cool will it be too have ALL the musclecars back?. GM needs to re-do the exterior of the GTO, Chrysler needs to come out with this car since it kinda did things all wrong with the Charger (although I still would take an SRT8). Still the cycle is almost complete. With the new Stang, a retro Z28 in the works, Challenger, GTO.........its the 60-early 70's all over again but with better chassis, comfort, and performance........hell yes!. The SSR is also a formidable retro musclecar. Now we need a strong RWD retro '70 Chevelle and Buick GS. Too bad Oldsmobile is now gone, a retro 442 would have been sweet.

Hell yeah!!!
How nice would it be to have a new "Heavy Chevy"? Or a 442? Maybe even a rag-top version of them? Ya just gotta love it! Back in those days, I only liked the GM A-body cars, the Camaro/Firebirds, the Ford Mustang, and Mopar Challenger/Barracuda. I'm sure there might be some others I'm forgetting but these were the big guns on the street as I recall.

90Brougham350
12-22-05, 12:17 PM
It almost seems like it has to happen, to some degree. We're well into a new horsepower war, and with GM's mega financial troubles, it can't afford not to compete. But with cars like this new Challenger, GM is going to have.....well, a challenge. I hope and pray we'll see either a Buick GS or GN. I just hope GM has the balls to put some real engines in their vehicles. A 6.1 Hemi in a Challenger is gonna be one hell of a competitor, but I'm guessing GM will put a slightly detuned LS2 in instead.

DBA-One
12-22-05, 01:12 PM
I think Chrysler is crazy enough to build this. It seems a lot of their concepts make it to production mainly intact.

dbdartman
12-22-05, 01:21 PM
If they changed... it would not be retro and therefore would not LOOK like a Challenger, so might as well call it any other name.

You mean like hanging Charger name plates on a Magnum sedan? :histeric:

This car is, what, 2 years from the showroom floor? What was DCX dragging around to all the car shows 2.5 years ago, saying, "We're making you a new production car! Isn't it beautiful" & what did they release? :nono:

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me!

I, for one, am NOT holding my breath.
I, for one, am NOT counting my chicken before they hatch!
I, for one, have been disappointed TOO MANY TIMES over the last 25 years; awaiting affordable performance in an ATTRACTIVE package, with a V8, manual trans, & RWD that wasn't a "me too" Ford or Chevy, to get my hopes up... AGAIN. :banghead:

It would be NICE, & I might even consider buying one (I like the styling & love the interior), but not until I've actually seen one on the dealer's lot & it looks SOMETHING LIKE what's being represented at this time.

Given that DCX's styling as of late has done NOTHING for me, I see this new car as a chance to redeem themselves in the eyes of the enthusiasts that were so disappointed with their last new product. Only time will tell...

Jesda
12-22-05, 01:26 PM
I WANT IT! [I also like big Datsuns. :)]

Spyder
12-22-05, 02:20 PM
If they build it, I will come...She will be mine, oh yes, she will be mine...

Katshot
12-22-05, 02:50 PM
What was the name of that purple they used on the Challenger? That's the one I'd want.

Spyder
12-22-05, 03:01 PM
Plum Crazy!!!

Katshot
12-22-05, 03:04 PM
Plum Crazy!!!

That's it!!
My buddy had a Plum Crazy 340 6-pack Challenger back in the 70's. Man what a car. I want that same look in this new one.
Put some chrome wheels on it, adjust the trim for a little forward rake.....I think I'm getting a HEMI!!! ;)

Sandy
12-22-05, 03:06 PM
From memory (I'll skip the codes, unless you request....)

Plum Crazy
SubLIME
Go-Mango
Top Banana
Hemi Orange
Sassy Grass Green
I am Curious Yella
Basin Street Blues
Butterscotch
Snow-White
Panther Pink

"HI-IMPACT" Paint Colors $ 37.00 extra
at todays rate of return/inflation - probably
$ 175.00 Extra......

I had a Sublime Challenger R/T followed by a Sassy Grss Green R/T
then a Hemi Orange Charger R/t and then a Black on Black
Charger SE Bullit Edition. All had the 383 4Bbl.

urbanski
12-22-05, 03:11 PM
lol $37 premium paint :p
porsche wants like 3500

Katshot
12-22-05, 03:14 PM
Okay, I gotta do it. Gaze at this:

AlBundy
12-22-05, 03:44 PM
Now thats impressive.

Sandy
12-22-05, 06:21 PM
OMG

THAT is MY exact "Demo" !! !! !! Minus that aftermarket Spoiler on the deck lid. I had the factory little flipped upward spoiler. subLIME with that hood, but the factory Magnum "500" rims. It was so overloaded with options it was nutty. 383 Magnum 4 Bbl. V-8 Torqueflite. 41 options ! A 2-windows sticker car. I had it like 4 months & it got sold out from under me, so then I ordered the Bullitt Edition Charger R/T, all black, leather, etc. I loved the wood steering wheel in the Charger. I was single and when I took out females they were really impressed with that car. It had an ultra luxury feel to it all black and buttery soft seats and very quiet and sleek. Then it got sold, and I was in a Dodge Dart Coupe 225 6 until my 1971 Sassy Grass Green Challenget R/T came in ! THAT car had the ULTRA rare "Elastomeric" front & Rear bumpers (painted to match) hood pins, scoops, Rally Wheels and a WHITE vinyl TOP and Cloth interior done in black & white checkerboards ! {I was nuts and wrapped up in the promotions}. It looked like a South Of The Boarder Pimpmobile, which was good. Nobody bought it, and I got to keep it for 7 months!! It had a Hi Po 383 T.N.T. Tru Dual exhaust pkg. and it freakin flew.
I recieved 3 speeding tickets in that thing and almost lost my license, but I had sold "the right" people in town cars, and things got....ah..."fixed" for me.
At one point I took on a 4.4.2. W-30 and blew his doors off. I was sad to see her go, when she was finally sold. But eagerlly awaited my 1971 Coronet Super Bee :lildevil:

Spyder
12-22-05, 06:45 PM
Sandy...I...envy...you. You are a god, merely for having owned and driven nearly every freaking car I've ever dreamed of...

I~LUV~Caddys8792
12-22-05, 08:55 PM
I wanna wait to see the 2007 IMPERIAL. I'll probably go for that. 2007 Imperial?!?!??! Dear God! :D
It's about time Chrysler made a car to compete with Cadillac/Lincoln
What do you know about these '07 Imperials? I havent heard of this before....but I am enticed

I~LUV~Caddys8792
12-22-05, 08:59 PM
I had a Sublime Challenger R/T followed by a Sassy Grss Green R/T
then a Hemi Orange Charger R/t and then a Black on Black
Charger SE Bullit Edition. All had the 383 4Bbl.

Awesome! I would LOVE To have a Hemi orange Charger R/T especially if it was a 1970. I like the grilles on those the most!

Sandy
12-22-05, 09:20 PM
Imperial is coming back, probably for 2007. Stretched (6") 300C with the SRT-8 425 HP V8 and a 4-speed automatic. It will exhibit Rolls Royce Phaeton (2005) styling cues, especially in the area of the front fenders and headlamps. Rumor mill says suicide doors, a la Phaeton may find their way onto the Imperial. Rear deck squared off, tall fender peaks. Select dealers to carry. Rolls on 21s. Possible fold down "picnic" trays on rear of front seats. (Mustard?) Very elegant & classy. Sandy waits. :yeah:

Randy_W
12-22-05, 09:25 PM
OMG

THAT is MY exact "Demo" !! !! !! Minus that aftermarket Spoiler on the deck lid. I had the factory little flipped upward spoiler. subLIME with that hood, but the factory Magnum "500" rims. It was so overloaded with options it was nutty. 383 Magnum 4 Bbl. V-8 Torqueflite. 41 options ! A 2-windows sticker car. I had it like 4 months & it got sold out from under me, so then I ordered the Bullitt Edition Charger R/T, all black, leather, etc. I loved the wood steering wheel in the Charger. I was single and when I took out females they were really impressed with that car. It had an ultra luxury feel to it all black and buttery soft seats and very quiet and sleek. Then it got sold, and I was in a Dodge Dart Coupe 225 6 until my 1971 Sassy Grass Green Challenget R/T came in ! THAT car had the ULTRA rare "Elastomeric" front & Rear bumpers (painted to match) hood pins, scoops, Rally Wheels and a WHITE vinyl TOP and Cloth interior done in black & white checkerboards ! {I was nuts and wrapped up in the promotions}. It;) looked like a South Of The Boarder Pimpmobile, which was good. Nobody bought it, and I got to keep it for 7 months!! It had a Hi Po 383 T.N.T. Tru Dual exhaust pkg. and it freakin flew.
I recieved 3 speeding tickets in that thing and almost lost my license, but I had sold "the right" people in town cars, and things got....ah..."fixed" for me.
At one point I took on a 4.4.2. W-30 and blew his doors off. I was sad to see her go, when she was finally sold. But eagerlly awaited my 1971 Coronet Super Bee :lildevil:

Sandy, that's not an aftermarket spoiler, those were Mopar and optional on Challanger, 'Cuda, Demon and Duster in various years.
I'm not exactly new to classic Mopars having owned, a '66 Charger 383/at, 1968 Sport Fury notchback coupe/383/4spd, A '68 GTX/426 Hemi/at, 1972 Demon 340/at, 1976 Fury Sport/ 440 Police engine/non catalyst, dual exhaust, 1978 Magnum GT/400, 1967 Coronet440/440 Magnum/at and a 1968 Sport Sattalite/440 Magnum. That doesn't count the six Dodge trucks and two Grand Cherokees with Magnum V8's of one sort or another. Oh, I almost forgot the 1956 Plymouth 4 dr.;)

Kev
12-22-05, 09:59 PM
Try and be gentle with him Sandy, a little extra mercy in keeping with the season?

Destroyer
12-22-05, 10:29 PM
I think Chrysler is crazy enough to build this. It seems a lot of their concepts make it to production mainly intact.
If they built the Prowler, they will build anything!. Prowler looked great but they really missed the mark with powertrain. I'm up for Hemi Prowler w/6 speed any day of the week.

Destroyer
12-22-05, 10:36 PM
2007 Imperial?!?!??! Dear God! :D
It's about time Chrysler made a car to compete with Cadillac/Lincoln
What do you know about these '07 Imperials? I havent heard of this before....but I am enticed
Actually they have already done that. Before I purchased my S class Benz a few months ago I visited a Chrysler used car lot to look at an '02 Deville. I noticed that they had a crap load of newer Deville's, Towncars, and other Caddy's and Lincolns on the lot. I asked the salesman wtf is with all the Caddy's and Lincolns out there?. He replies that since the new Chrysler 300 came out, they have been flooded with Caddy and Lincoln trades.
BTW: I almost bought the Deville but after I test drove the Benz I knew I could never own the Deville.

Randy_W
12-23-05, 07:45 AM
I almost bought the Deville but after I test drove the Benz I knew I could never own the Deville.

It's that kind of arrogance from owners of non Cadillac vehicles that start most flame threads on here. You're point was made without that last remark. I guess it just re-enforces most people's impression of MB owners as arrogant and condecending, even though they damn sure have no room to be! It must be quite an honor to be allowed to pay triple for service at the Mercedes dealer. Same old bs, different day.:yawn:

Katshot
12-23-05, 07:51 AM
The 300C DOES offer an interesting blend of high-end styling and bargain pricing. My guess is, the people that traded in those Cadillacs and Lincolns only had them to impress people, so when presented with a cheaper alternative, they jumped on it. Plus, the fact that the 300C is so popular gives attention-whores another leg up. Damn shame because the cars they traded are significantly better cars. Oh well, a market rich with low mileage, low priced Lincolns and Cadillacs isn't a bad thing necessarily.

Katshot
12-23-05, 07:55 AM
It's that kind of arrogance from owners of non Cadillac vehicles that start most flame threads on here. You're point was made without that last remark. I guess it just re-enforces most people's impression of MB owners as arrogant and condecending, even though they damn sure have no room to be! It must be quite an honor to be allowed to pay triple for service at the Mercedes dealer. Same old bs, different day.:yawn:

Hate to say it but, I agree with Randy. Maybe I wouldn't have been so blunt about it but I agree the last sentence wasn't necessary. Besides, I wouldn't say the Deville (actually the new DTS) is a bad car. I'm no fan of the new design, but the car is actually very nice. I'll take a '05 DTS in black w/chrome wheels anyday over many MB's.

Destroyer
12-23-05, 08:54 AM
It's that kind of arrogance from owners of non Cadillac vehicles that start most flame threads on here. You're point was made without that last remark. I guess it just re-enforces most people's impression of MB owners as arrogant and condecending, even though they damn sure have no room to be! It must be quite an honor to be allowed to pay triple for service at the Mercedes dealer. Same old bs, different day.:yawn:
I own, have owned, and will continue to own Cadillacs. I probably should have left the last part out, didn't mean to offend anyone. I really liked the Deville as a driver. Part of me really didn't want to get a FWD car and the build quality of the one I drove was questionable, especially on the interior. The Deville was faster than the S320 I bought. I was simply blown away by the big Benz's workmanship, the interior is just beautiful and the ride (especially on the highway) is impressive. Depreciation hit these Benz's pretty bad. I paid $14.3k ($70k new)for it and its a 97' model so I'm not some snobby Mercedes owner but I know the type you are talkiing about. I am well aware that a Benz costs more to service. I'm sticking to my guns about the Mercedes being the better car, it should be as it cost a lot more than the Deville as a new car. The Deville I was looking at was $16k and was not the DTS, just a regular Deville.

I never said the Deville was a bad car, just that in my opinion it was not on the same level as the Benz. I did not personally attack anyone like you did to me so dont give me no lip about being condecending.:want:

Destroyer
12-23-05, 09:01 AM
Hate to say it but, I agree with Randy. Maybe I wouldn't have been so blunt about it but I agree the last sentence wasn't necessary. Besides, I wouldn't say the Deville (actually the new DTS) is a bad car. I'm no fan of the new design, but the car is actually very nice. I'll take a '05 DTS in black w/chrome wheels anyday over many MB's.Katshot, dude, you know I didn't mean that as an insult to Cadillacs. You know I'm more a Fleewood kind of guy and I agree the Deville is good car, I almost bought one. Between the Benz and the Deville, I bought the car I liked better, thats all. Definately not trying to get a Benz vs. Caddy thing going as I am partial to both. When the new RWD Caddy's deppreciate in a couple of years I'll be all over them.

ShadowLvr400
12-23-05, 09:07 AM
None of the Challenger pictures are showing up for me. And I'm on Cable, shouldnt be moving slow.

ShadowLvr400
12-23-05, 09:08 AM
Now it works, and it looks good... I'd like one. :) GM needs to get i together and bring back the Camaro...

Randy_W
12-23-05, 09:14 AM
I never said the Deville was a bad car, just that in my opinion it was not on the same level as the Benz. I did not personally attack anyone like you did to me so dont give me no lip about being condecending.:want:

Merry Christmas:thumbsup:

Sandy
12-23-05, 09:55 AM
My parents, as I was growing up, owned a grand total of 21 Imperials (it's NOT a Chrysler Imperial ~ any more than it's a Ford Lincoln, nor a GM Cadillac). I personally owned 6 Imperials. I have also owned 3 Cadillacs and 3 Lincolns. That's 33 cars in total. How many of them were "bad" ? Zero ! Everyone was a great car, loaded with tangible features, comfort & convience items and was impressive on the road. We (parents & myself) would never consider buying a foreign car. It had to be an American-Made product, being owned by an American corporation and manufactured here in America. I took a chance (raffle ticket) for a 2005 Mercedes Benz SLK Convertible from a neighbor selling raffle tickets for the PAL. Wife said what would I do if I won it? I said I'd drive it to the local MB dealership and sell it for dealer invoice, minus $1,000. If someone says to me, I have a BMW, my 1st thought is "fool" ~ granted everyone else in the room is probably moistening their undies. My Dad fought in the war, my folks both escaped NAZI Germany and certain death, and came to America and found refuge, education, acceptance, culture, love and huge success in life. Why would they support ANY other countries industry at the expense of America's industrial base? (and I agree, and have likewise followed suit). The American flag flys daily from the flagpole on the front of my house, and I give blood annually to the Red Cross, and I BUY AMERICAN!
(my .04 cents)

HotRodSaint
12-23-05, 10:30 AM
All car's must die, public transportation is the future!! :devil:

Until then, this car might become my daily driver. I'd put a more aggressive lower front valance on it, but that's about it.

GM?? How's that Camaro looking?? You got a 427 for us?

Destroyer
12-23-05, 10:40 AM
My parents, as I was growing up, owned a grand total of 21 Imperials (it's NOT a Chrysler Imperial ~ any more than it's a Ford Lincoln, nor a GM Cadillac). I personally owned 6 Imperials. I have also owned 3 Cadillacs and 3 Lincolns. That's 33 cars in total. How many of them were "bad" ? Zero ! Everyone was a great car, loaded with tangible features, comfort & convience items and was impressive on the road. We (parents & myself) would never consider buying a foreign car. It had to be an American-Made product, being owned by an American corporation and manufactured here in America. I took a chance (raffle ticket) for a 2005 Mercedes Benz SLK Convertible from a neighbor selling raffle tickets for the PAL. Wife said what would I do if I won it? I said I'd drive it to the local MB dealership and sell it for dealer invoice, minus $1,000. If someone says to me, I have a BMW, my 1st thought is "fool" ~ granted everyone else in the room is probably moistening their undies. My Dad fought in the war, my folks both escaped NAZI Germany and certain death, and came to America and found refuge, education, acceptance, culture, love and huge success in life. Why would they support ANY other countries industry at the expense of America's industrial base? (and I agree, and have likewise followed suit). The American flag flys daily from the flagpole on the front of my house, and I give blood annually to the Red Cross, and I BUY AMERICAN!
(my .04 cents)
Ok, now I'm a fool:highfive: Not even gonna attempt to comment on this one Sandy. All is good.

Kev
12-23-05, 11:26 AM
My parents, as I was growing up, owned a grand total of 21 Imperials (it's NOT a Chrysler Imperial ~ any more than it's a Ford Lincoln, nor a GM Cadillac). I personally owned 6 Imperials. I have also owned 3 Cadillacs and 3 Lincolns. That's 33 cars in total. How many of them were "bad" ? Zero ! Everyone was a great car, loaded with tangible features, comfort & convience items and was impressive on the road. We (parents & myself) would never consider buying a foreign car. It had to be an American-Made product, being owned by an American corporation and manufactured here in America. I took a chance (raffle ticket) for a 2005 Mercedes Benz SLK Convertible from a neighbor selling raffle tickets for the PAL. Wife said what would I do if I won it? I said I'd drive it to the local MB dealership and sell it for dealer invoice, minus $1,000. If someone says to me, I have a BMW, my 1st thought is "fool" ~ granted everyone else in the room is probably moistening their undies. My Dad fought in the war, my folks both escaped NAZI Germany and certain death, and came to America and found refuge, education, acceptance, culture, love and huge success in life. Why would they support ANY other countries industry at the expense of America's industrial base? (and I agree, and have likewise followed suit). The American flag flys daily from the flagpole on the front of my house, and I give blood annually to the Red Cross, and I BUY AMERICAN!
(my .04 cents)*Stands at attention, choking back the lump in throat* Here here! Well said!

Randy_W
12-23-05, 01:05 PM
*Stands at attention, choking back the lump in throat* Here here! Well said!

Sandy, Kev, I'm on board! It's hard for the younger people to understand the life and death struggle that your Dad and mine went through to preserve our nation. Yes it preserved freedom of choice, but with freedom comes responsibility!
Patriotism is not fashionable nowadays, it's hip to bash all that is America and American. I'm sitting here watching my flag wave in the breeze, every time I raise it, I get emotional. People that don't feel an immense pride at seeing Old Glory, just don't get it. I've tried to instill the pride of my father's generation in my kids. Some of it rubbed off, niether one has ever even talked about buying an import. My daughter in law has a CRV, it's paid off, they plan to replace it with an Envoy Denali in the spring. Another convert for our side!:thumbsup:

90Brougham350
12-23-05, 06:59 PM
GM?? How's that Camaro looking?? You got a 427 for us?

One can only hope. After all, Corvette engines have a funny way of ending up in other GM vehicles a year after their release! Some, but not all. Probably a good thing we never saw a FWB with an LT5. Then again, with the very limited production of the LS7, I doubt it'll come with anything but an LS2, and it'll get smoked by every 6.1 Hemi out there.

Destroyer
12-23-05, 07:25 PM
Sandy, Kev, I'm on board! It's hard for the younger people to understand the life and death struggle that your Dad and mine went through to preserve our nation. Yes it preserved freedom of choice, but with freedom comes responsibility!
Patriotism is not fashionable nowadays, it's hip to bash all that is America and American. I'm sitting here watching my flag wave in the breeze, every time I raise it, I get emotional. People that don't feel an immense pride at seeing Old Glory, just don't get it. I've tried to instill the pride of my father's generation in my kids. Some of it rubbed off, niether one has ever even talked about buying an import. My daughter in law has a CRV, it's paid off, they plan to replace it with an Envoy Denali in the spring. Another convert for our side!:thumbsup:I dont buy new cars so it makes no difference. That being said, how is money spent on a used import not supporting America?. Its hard to even tell whats American anymore cause in many cases the cars are assebled in Canada or what not. Some American cars are Japanese. The parts come from who knows where. I can appreciate your patriotism and your feelings on this subject but calling others arrogant, condecending, or outright fools because they dont see things the same way is wrong. :crowded:

Katshot
12-23-05, 07:47 PM
They're flag waving and that's okay. It's great to be patriotic but IMO, I think the whole "buy American" thing is foolish. Most people like to THINK that buying only American cars or whatever is in some way saving our country. Personally, I don't believe that. It's just not that simple folks but if it makes you feel better, have at it.
Here's an interesting read, if you care to:
http://www.capmag.com/article.asp?ID=576

Destroyer
12-23-05, 08:33 PM
"A patriotic American acts as a capitalist and an individualist: he buys the best, wherever it may be found."

Good article and one that I happen to agree with. ;)

HotRodSaint
12-23-05, 09:36 PM
So is Chrysler a German company? Is Jaguar American?

What about GM's made in Canada or Ford's made in Mexico, are they still American even if American don't get paid to make them?

What about Toyota's made in California or Mercedes made in Alabama by Americans?

I'm a car enthusiast first and foremost. Like objects of art, it doesn't matter where the artist is from, as long as it's good art.

The problem has been that Detroit has thought that cartoon's are good enough for the art world.

Katshot
12-23-05, 09:46 PM
So is Chrysler a German company? Is Jaguar American?
What about GM's made in Canada or Ford's made in Mexico, are they still American even if American don't get paid to make them?
What about Toyota's made in California or Mercedes made in Alabama by Americans?
I'm a car enthusiast first and foremost. Like objects of art, it doesn't matter where the artist is from, as long as it's good art.
The problem has been that Detroit has thought that cartoon's are good enough for the art world.

Damn! I think it's going to snow or something. I actually like this post! :thumbsup:
On top of that, remember a couple years ago, someone did a little research and determined that "technically" the Ford Crown Vic was an "import"? Something about the percentage of the total parts being sourced from outside the US. How's that for ya? Probably the single most AMERICAN car out there is actually an IMPORT! Ya gotta love it. I say the "single most American car" because it's the #1 most popular police vehicle, taxi, and limousine in the country. What could be more AMERICAN?

AlBundy
12-23-05, 09:53 PM
I also agree why should americians be afraid to buy unamerican cars if thats what they like. I buy american exclusively but if I get into a Lexus that does it for me why shouldn't I buy it. If america is so afraid of a good product then america needs to make a product just as good or better.

Sandy
12-24-05, 02:38 AM
It's really so simple, as to WHAT is an American car.

An American car (new) is one whose initial retail sale generates profit for either GM or Ford. (Chrysler dulls the line, muddies the waters, but could still be counted with a little stretch). It does not matter if said car is made in Canada or Mexico, THE sale of it benefits (profitwise) An American Corporation and the bulk of the profits remain here...in America. Therefore, that WOULD include Jaguar, Isuzu, Saab, Volvo and Aston Martin. Where the car, or some of its parts are made, does not matter, What does matter is WHERE THE PROFITS GO. Do they go to an American Corporation or o they go to a Foreign Bank in a Foreign Land and get re-invested in beneficial things for the homeland corporation.

All cars listed above + Cadilac, Buick, Pontiac, Chevrolet and probably Chrysler are "American Products" ~ all others are not. Regarding foreign cars built in America, that there is a big farse. BMW, Honda, Toyota did not come here & build plants to aid & assist our fellow Americans, & don't you believe that cold sour soup they are serving up. They came here & bought the land & built plants to build the cars to save on importation taxes, to save on import fees, to save on shipping costs at sea. They are smart, and slick, like foXX ! Besides, the states they built in gave them 25 years NO property tax and NO state income tax !! Smoke THAT ! You & I and all Americans pay tax, but...on no, ultra wealthy Toyota, BMW & Honda got sweetheart deals of no tax. IF Americans do NOT support our industrialized largest product (cars & trucks).... who will? The French ? The Dutch ? The Icelanders ?

SilverFleetwood85
12-24-05, 03:13 AM
It's really so simple, as to WHAT is an American car.

An American car (new) is one whose initial retail sale generates profit for either GM or Ford. (Chrysler dulls the line, muddies the waters, but could still be counted with a little stretch). It does not matter if said car is made in Canada or Mexico, THE sale of it benefits (profitwise) An American Corporation and the bulk of the profits remain here...in America. Therefore, that WOULD include Jaguar, Isuzu, Saab, Volvo and Aston Martin. Where the car, or some of its parts are made, does not matter, What does matter is WHERE THE PROFITS GO. Do they go to an American Corporation or o they go to a Foreign Bank in a Foreign Land and get re-invested in beneficial things for the homeland corporation.

All cars listed above + Cadilac, Buick, Pontiac, Chevrolet and probably Chrysler are "American Products" ~ all others are not. Regarding foreign cars built in America, that there is a big farse. BMW, Honda, Toyota did not come here & build plants to aid & assist our fellow Americans, & don't you believe that cold sour soup they are serving up. They came here & bought the land & built plants to build the cars to save on importation taxes, to save on import fees, to save on shipping costs at sea. They are smart, and slick, like foXX ! Besides, the states they built in gave them 25 years NO property tax and NO state income tax !! Smoke THAT ! You & I and all Americans pay tax, but...on no, ultra wealthy Toyota, BMW & Honda got sweetheart deals of no tax. IF Americans do NOT support our industrialized largest product (cars & trucks).... who will? The French ? The Dutch ? The Icelanders ?

Sandy, you have a valid point saying that no matter where an American car is made the money goes back to the American company (the money stays in the US).

The only problem is what about the American workers who lose their jobs to cheaper labor in foreign countries? Most of that money goes to the fat saleries of the CEOs not the lower level employees. No matter how well a company does they are always looking for ways to cut cost, cheaper labor is a huge increase in profits.

It would be nice if American workers were well paid and offered good job security (not having the fear of being replaced by workers willing to work at a cheaper wage).

Katshot
12-24-05, 07:47 AM
My guess is this thread is going to get locked soon if the political tone doesn't quit. But until it does...
I think that focusing on the relatively small profit the OEM makes at time of sale is missing the big picture. By the time GM, Ford, BMW, or MB gets to plop anything from a couple hundred, to a couple thousand in the bank, that car has generated many times that for the companies that supplied the parts, transportation, financing, assembly labor, etc, etc, etc. I think you need to take a much larger look at what goes into making a car or truck, and who actually benefits from it. The actual sale of the car is actually just a drop in the bucket people. Think of all the people that would be hurt here, if all the import makes dropped by 50% in sales here. Think of the people working at the dealerships that would be out of work. The UPS, Fed Ex and other delivery people that would feel the pinch. The parts suppliers that wouldn't be getting as many orders. The local utility companies that wouldn't be getting revenues from servicing the plants, dealerships and warehouses. The list goes on and on. There's a trickle-down economics lesson here people. Like it or not, by supporting one vehicle over another, all you're REALLY doing is moving money around within our own country. But like I said before, if it makes you feel better to "Buy American", have at it.

Randy_W
12-24-05, 09:37 AM
My guess is this thread is going to get locked soon if the political tone doesn't quit. But until it does...
I think that focusing on the relatively small profit the OEM makes at time of sale is missing the big picture. By the time GM, Ford, BMW, or MB gets to plop anything from a couple hundred, to a couple thousand in the bank, that car has generated many times that for the companies that supplied the parts, transportation, financing, assembly labor, etc, etc, etc. I think you need to take a much larger look at what goes into making a car or truck, and who actually benefits from it. The actual sale of the car is actually just a drop in the bucket people. Think of all the people that would be hurt here, if all the import makes dropped by 50% in sales here. Think of the people working at the dealerships that would be out of work. The UPS, Fed Ex and other delivery people that would feel the pinch. The parts suppliers that wouldn't be getting as many orders. The local utility companies that wouldn't be getting revenues from servicing the plants, dealerships and warehouses. The list goes on and on. There's a trickle-down economics lesson here people. Like it or not, by supporting one vehicle over another, all you're REALLY doing is moving money around within our own country. But like I said before, if it makes you feel better to "Buy American", have at it.


Kat, the part about import sales dropping 50% costing American jobs and money doesn't wash. We need a finite number of vehicles in this country, if there were no imports, American workers would be busy building American cars to supply the demand. Frankly, I'm an American, so I see no problem with "waving the flag", there should be a hell of a lot more of it!

Destroyer
12-24-05, 10:11 AM
Kat, the part about import sales dropping 50% costing American jobs and money doesn't wash. We need a finite number of vehicles in this country, if there were no imports, American workers would be busy building American cars to supply the demand. Frankly, I'm an American, so I see no problem with "waving the flag", there should be a hell of a lot more of it!
You do realize that Ford, GM, and Chrysler all have European divisions right?. It all balances out.

HotRodSaint
12-24-05, 10:36 AM
It's really so simple, as to WHAT is an American car.
An American car (new) is one whose initial retail sale generates profit for either GM or Ford.
<snip>
It does not matter if said car is made in Canada or Mexico, THE sale of it benefits (profitwise) An American Corporation and the bulk of the profits remain here...in America.
<snip>
Where the car, or some of its parts are made, does not matter, What does matter is WHERE THE PROFITS GO. Do they go to an American Corporation or o they go to a Foreign Bank in a Foreign Land and get re-invested in beneficial things for the homeland corporation.


Is it better for America that 'multinational corporations' with it's HQ in the USA makes profits, or that American workers have jobs? Because if Ford or GM make profits and invest them overseas in Daewoo or Volvo, how does that help America or it's workers?

That all sounds very republican, which will then surprise you that I think American workers should take priority over 'mulitnational' corporations.



Besides, the states they built in gave them 25 years NO property tax and NO state income tax !! Smoke THAT ! You & I and all Americans pay tax, but...on no, ultra wealthy Toyota, BMW & Honda got sweetheart deals of no tax.

Then either Alabama, South Carolina, Tennessee, Mississippi and Texas are really, really stupid, or they are really, really, smart.

I say they are smart because 3000+ workers generate state and federal payroll tax, half of which is paid by the company.

And besides the 3000+ workers that are directly employed by the manufacturer, support businesses spring up near the manufacturers, which pay taxes, corporate and payroll. The workers also pay sales tax everytime they spend their paycheck in the local economy, which helps other businesses grow and become profitable.

This is why I don't care who owns the company, so much as where the car is built. Ford laying off Americans, making profits off of Mexican workers and investing those in China, does nothing but negative things for our economy.

That GM (or Ford) isn't making profits isn't my fault because I bought an Indiana built Subaru. It's theirs for not making a comparable AWD vehicle with a manual transmission.

GM saved Saab and Daewoo, while letting Oldsmobile die. So if GM doesn't care, why should I???


IF Americans do NOT support our industrialized largest product (cars & trucks).... who will? The French ? The Dutch ? The Icelanders ?

If the 'domestic' product isn't made here, then supporting American workers, no matter what company they work for, becomes a national priority.

Lastly, Foreign companies cannot send 100% of their profits back to their home country. Because we tax that too!! So it's smarter for them to reinvest those profits here. And they do!!

Katshot
12-24-05, 10:38 AM
Kat, the part about import sales dropping 50% costing American jobs and money doesn't wash. We need a finite number of vehicles in this country, if there were no imports, American workers would be busy building American cars to supply the demand. Frankly, I'm an American, so I see no problem with "waving the flag", there should be a hell of a lot more of it!

We need a finite number of vehicles in this country? Where the hell did you come up with that? Unfortunately, your theory doesn't quite work. Coming from a manufacturing business owning family, and working in the business these days, I can tell you that if new import vehicle sales dropped-off by a certain percent, that would not directly get transplanted to new domestic vehicle sales. It's far more likely to get absorbed mostly by the used import market. You're still missing my point anyway. Are you aware of how many local economies are greatly, if not near TOTALLY dependent on import vehicle manufacturing plants? Close just one Toyota plant and see how that effects the surrounding communities.
I've got another angle for this issue. You want to claim "buying American" supports America, while buying imports does just the opposite right? Okay, this may come as a shock but you can look it up if you want. How about the people that work for our domestic OEMs? The people that you are so worried about. Who are they? Are you aware that it's just possible that everytime you buy a Ford, you're sponsoring a terrorist? Are you aware that one of the largest Islamic communities in the country is located in Dearborn, MI.? Are you also aware that it's well documented that many families located there have direct ties to terrorists in the middle east? So if you want to get down to brass tacks, it COULD theoretically be said that when you buy one of the most American of vehicles, you're indirectly supporting a terrorist.
Think about THAT one for a moment.
You see, it's just not as black and white as you'd like to think it is.

HotRodSaint
12-24-05, 10:46 AM
if there were no imports...

If there where no imports, there'd be no exports.

If there were no imports, Ford couldn't sell the Mexican made Fusion, Focus or
Crown Victoria.

If there were no imports, GM couldn't sell it's Daewoo sourced Aveo.

Don't blame the American people for buying foreign cars. Blame Ford and GM for going global very early in their history to sell more cars!! If Ford didn't set-up in Australia, Germany and England in the '30's then GM never would have bought Holden, Vauxhall or Opel.

What they did to those local economies, is juist now being played out here.

Funny thing is, Ford is considered a domestic in all those markets and so are the GM brands.

The point is, the sky is not falling and our country has bigger threats to our long term national security than whose brand name is on the car you drive.

HotRodSaint
12-24-05, 10:53 AM
There's a trickle-down economics lesson here people. Like it or not, by supporting one vehicle over another, all you're REALLY doing is moving money around within our own country.

The funny things about this whole debate is, that it's two conservative ideas competing against each other.

Trickle down economics verses Corporate Wealth.

I'd say that supporting Corporate Wealth is the far right position, and trickle down is the moderate position.

But you just can't call it trickle down, because that's been carefully sold as a far right position by those who claim to be all about the workers!!! :bonkers:

Sandy
12-24-05, 11:24 AM
Kat, the part about import sales dropping 50% costing American jobs and money doesn't wash. We need a finite number of vehicles in this country, if there were no imports, American workers would be busy building American cars to supply the demand. Frankly, I'm an American, so I see no problem with "waving the flag", there should be a hell of a lot more of it!

I AGREE !!

Randy_W
12-24-05, 12:05 PM
Are you aware that it's just possible that everytime you buy a Ford, you're sponsoring a terrorist?
:histeric: :histeric: :histeric: :histeric: :histeric: You should take that act on the road!:histeric: :histeric: :histeric: I wonder if my cousin gets yearly pictures of the terrorist family he supports with his five Fords??:histeric:

I should not have used the term "finite", but at any given time we need certain numbers of vehicles. If there were no imports, and I'm not saying imports should be banned, but if imports were 10% of the market, then 90% would be domestic. There is no other way to look at it. The used imports would be gone in a few years and domestics would take that market share.
Do you know why those communities are dependant on import owned car plants? Because the stupidest policy in history, called 'Free Trade', allowed all our textile, clothing and hosiery mills to be sent outside our borders.

Katshot
12-24-05, 01:09 PM
:histeric: :histeric: :histeric: :histeric: :histeric: You should take that act on the road!:histeric: :histeric: :histeric: I wonder if my cousin gets yearly pictures of the terrorist family he supports with his five Fords??:histeric:

I should not have used the term "finite", but at any given time we need certain numbers of vehicles. If there were no imports, and I'm not saying imports should be banned, but if imports were 10% of the market, then 90% would be domestic. There is no other way to look at it. The used imports would be gone in a few years and domestics would take that market share.
Do you know why those communities are dependant on import owned car plants? Because the stupidest policy in history, called 'Free Trade', allowed all our textile, clothing and hosiery mills to be sent outside our borders.

First of all, don't take a sentence out of my post and try to use it out of context. Read the whole post and the sentence makes sense. The point is just that one of the largest Islamic communities is right in the middle of where Ford draws their labor from. A large percentage of Ford's workforce is Islamic. Does a large percentage of those workers take money from their paychecks and send it to the middle east to their relatives? My guess is yes.
The point was that just because you buy an american-made product, there's no guarantee that your money stays here and helps support OUR economy.
As for the concept of "free-trade", you should think long and hard before you make such sweeping generalizations. My family has been in the textile manufacturing business for over 30 years, and I can give you some ideas about why the textile industry is no longer here in this country.

Kev
12-24-05, 01:36 PM
As much as I'd like to chime in on this conversation it would be irresponsible of me given my position as moderator. We need to get this thread back on topic and leave the politics aside or this will be closed.

Thanks guys,
Kev

Destroyer
12-24-05, 01:51 PM
As much as I'd like to chime in on this conversation it would be irresponsible of me given my position as moderator. We need to get this thread back on topic and leave the politics aside or this will be closed.

Thanks guys,
Kev
Absolutely, the Charger is going to be a killer machine. We'll just ignore the fact that it never would have been possible without a certain German company. ;)

Katshot
12-24-05, 02:04 PM
Absolutely, the Charger is going to be a killer machine. We'll just ignore the fact that it never would have been possible without a certain German company. ;)

You mean Challenger?

HotRodSaint
12-24-05, 02:13 PM
We'll just ignore the fact that it never would have been possible without a certain German company. ;)

It never would have happened at all, if enthusiasts didn't cause a stir when FORD was going to base it's Mustang on a FWD Mazda platform.

That car then became the Probe. Have you driven the new Probe latley?? That's right, 2 generations of production and it was gone. The Mustang is still here.

Had Ford killed the Mustang by doing that, it would not now have a successful RWD Mustang design, which would never have given Chrysler a business case to resurrect a RWD car.

Proving that if Detroit makes good cars, people will buy them. But they wasted decades thinking everyone and their dog wanted trucks or psuedo trucks, or car based trucks, or car based psuedo trucks.

They let Honda and Toyota slowly take away the car sales, and when the trend that everyone knew was going to come came, they got caught with their weenie in their zipper and damned if I'm going to kiss it just because they might get bought out by a better managed company!!

If Detroit makes some good cars, like the Mustang, 300C and CTS, people will by them. Mexican people, Canadian people, German people and yes Americans too!!

I'll fight to the death to defend the United States of America, but screw Ford or GM. What have they done for me lately??

Katshot
12-24-05, 02:35 PM
Yeah, I think the success of the Mustang certainly helped the case for DC to bring back the Charger but to be honest, I think the car was in the pipeline far before the Mustang even hit the market. I've said it many times, success in the automotive market is all about timing. That timing is sometimes well calculated but more often than not, I think it's just good old fashioned luck! I think you can tip the scales in your favor by having a good man (or group of men) making the decisions. In GM's case, Rick Wagoner is just the latest in a long line of guys that make bad decisions, especially about the product.
A couple years before GM killed the F-bodies, I suggested that the Camaro/Firebird were pricing themselves out of the game, and it turned out they were. GM decided to try to make them into a slightly cheaper version of the Corvette. Unfortunately, the car couldn't be made cheaply enough to afford GM a decent profit. While Ford was content with keeping the Mustang true to it's roots by keeping it a "pony-car", GM was trying to make the car into a Corvette. I think we all know which was the smart move.
I hope the Challenger is produced just as we see it in these pictures. It will be another hot car from a company that's making a lot of right moves lately.

Randy_W
12-24-05, 09:41 PM
Does a large percentage of those workers take money from their paychecks and send it to the middle east to their relatives? My guess is yes.


In several areas, plants were manned by a predominately black workforce, I doubt a large percentage of their paychecks were sent to Africa.

I'm not going to beat this dead horse, I'll just continue to do the patriotic thing, that's buy American whenever possible!;)