: Coolant crossover photos



ewill3rd
12-08-05, 11:19 AM
Okay so here are a few photos, I'll see if I can do this right.
Lots of folks have been asking about this type of repair lately so I thought I would snap some photos for clarification.
Without great detail right now, here are some pics of resealing the coolant crossover or "water pump housing".
I'll answer questions when I have time.

ewill3rd
12-08-05, 11:21 AM
The first picture shows the engine with the crossover removed, you can see it's no party to take off.
the second shows the housing, on the right side you can see where the water pump is housed. I'll take a quick pic of the pump from the other side in a few mins.
The third is to show you what happens to cause the leak.
The inner framework of the gasket fails and there is nothing to keep pressure on the seal part (blue).
The gasket collapses inwards and coolant can get past.
I'll add a pic of a new seal so you can see what a good one looks like.
I gotta get back to work. This one has to be ready tomorrow.

ewill3rd
12-08-05, 11:25 AM
Okay, reeeeeaaal quick.
Here's the pump with the cover removed so you can see how it fits in there.
Also this is an updated crossover seal. It's white with a black seal lip rather than black with the blue.

Ranger
12-08-05, 01:01 PM
Great pics, Thanks. Hope I never have the need to do it. Don't look like fun.
I moved it to the Northstar & Tech Tips sections where I thought it was better suited.

codewize
04-10-07, 11:58 PM
Ughh no that doesn't look like fun at all. And I thought it was going to be something easy.

ewill3rd
04-11-07, 09:02 AM
Nope it is really not a party code.
You going to do it yourself?
It can take a novice over 6 hours to do that job.

codewize
04-11-07, 04:47 PM
What the flat rate that a dealer would charge. I'm not a novice by any means but I also don't like to get into major things anymore. If a dealer can do it in 2 or 3 it might be worth it.

Raze
04-11-07, 06:00 PM
What year N* is that? I ask because it looks nothing like a pre-2000, different intake manifold, the TB spacer is PART OF the xover!

Holy bad redesign Batman!

Ranger
04-11-07, 08:49 PM
It is a 2000+ engine. You can tell by the coil module in the cam cover and the female electrical plug just behind the water pump pulley drive shaft.

ewill3rd
04-11-07, 09:55 PM
Oh the stories I could tell.
:D

Here is an interesting side note.... on the 2006 and up FWD N* engines the crossover MUST BE REMOVED to replace the water pump.
That's right kids... they changed the pump from a cartridge style that is fed in from the back side and made it a front mount bolt on that goes on the crossover and is sandwiched next to the head. No way to get the pump off without taking the crossover out.

Ranger
04-11-07, 10:40 PM
on the 2006 and up FWD N* engines the crossover MUST BE REMOVED to replace the water pump.
:eek: Good Lord, have they no sense of decency? :want:

jadcock
04-12-07, 07:40 AM
Here is an interesting side note.... on the 2006 and up FWD N* engines the crossover MUST BE REMOVED to replace the water pump.
That's right kids... they changed the pump from a cartridge style that is fed in from the back side and made it a front mount bolt on that goes on the crossover and is sandwiched next to the head. No way to get the pump off without taking the crossover out.

Oh my GOSH, why would they do that...?? :rant2:

ewill3rd
04-12-07, 08:22 AM
Here are some highlights from the pump replacement procedure.


Remove the water pump housing. Refer to Coolant Crossover Pipe Replacement .
Remove the water pump cover bolt/studs.
Remove the water pump cover.

jadcock
04-12-07, 11:49 AM
How bizaare!

Ranger
04-12-07, 06:01 PM
WOW! Only 3 steps. Easier than I thought. :bigroll:

ewill3rd
04-13-07, 08:42 AM
Those are just the first 3 steps... LOL.

Oh and what GM loves to do in SI is use hyperlinks to lead to other procedures, which have hyperlinks to lead to other procedures and so on.
So step one could be 100 steps by the time you are done clicking...;)

I just hope they don't turn out to be leakers.

I could tell you a story about this that would blow your mind.
Not sure if I should. I think GM would get mad at me... shhhh!!

Ranger
04-13-07, 11:40 AM
I just hope they don't turn out to be leakers.
My '03 was leaking (albeit just seepage) at 20K. The repair was long enough to give me a loaner.

codewize
04-16-07, 11:59 PM
Ok so he says the part that's leaking is a part that attaches to the front of this on the side towards the front of the car. It has what appears to be a small vacuum canister on the top of it. It's just a small piece that bolts directly to the crossover manifold.

If you need pics I'll get them tomorrow.

ewill3rd
04-17-07, 06:49 AM
Not sure... need photo.
Maybe that "vacuum canister" is a vacuum check valve for the AIR system.
Sounds like it could be the water pump cover?
hmmm.

codewize
04-17-07, 10:56 AM
Something to do with this part in red. I think he said wher it attaches to the crossover manifold. Sorry about the focus. The camera wanted to lock on the closest subject, the dipstick.

ewill3rd
04-17-07, 11:05 AM
Yep, just as I suspected.
That upper part is a check valve for the AIR system, the part below is the water pump cover.
That one is easy, except maybe for the check valve removal. It does have to come off to get the cover off.

codewize
04-17-07, 11:44 AM
Can i do it myself? any problems I should be aware of? Whats the secret with the check valve.

ewill3rd
04-17-07, 04:07 PM
No secret, it is as simple as removing bolts and replacing a seal if that is all that is wrong with it.
Only takes a couple of hours and some coolant.
Basic hand tools. The nuts on the check valve are hard to reach.
That's it.

codewize
04-17-07, 05:40 PM
:) I have little tiny hands. Good for stuff like this. I just have to confirm that that's where the leak is.

Thanks

AJxtcman
04-19-07, 09:36 PM
Oh the stories I could tell.
:D

Here is an interesting side note.... on the 2006 and up FWD N* engines the crossover MUST BE REMOVED to replace the water pump.
That's right kids... they changed the pump from a cartridge style that is fed in from the back side and made it a front mount bolt on that goes on the crossover and is sandwiched next to the head. No way to get the pump off without taking the crossover out.

That is not bad as the XLR that rolled in today. Fuel door inop. It was fixxed inn about 2hrs. The fuel door release cable and actuator was replaced. The 06+ water pump are great.

8.2liter
04-20-07, 04:09 AM
Question for ewill, other than freeze-on-the-floor are there any specific symptoms for this leak? Reason being I have a '03 DES and the DIC reports a check coolant about every 600 miles or about a pint low. Dealer replaced a water pump gasket (no help) and now the surge tank. Now waiting to see what happens. Thanks for all your past post and under hood photography !:worship:

AJxtcman
04-20-07, 07:03 AM
low coolant message is the #1 complaint for a crossover concern. Most customer do not look at the floor.

ewill3rd
04-20-07, 07:08 AM
8.2,
Usually the crossover leaks never hit the ground. They are pretty small and usually evaporate from the engine heat before they leak down to the floor.
Sometimes if you look carefully you can see residue or a puddle on top of the transmission, over behind the engine.
If you are underneath you might see some coolant drips where the engine and trans bolt together, but as I said most of the time you won't see anything on the floor.
On an '03 Deville I think there was a bulletin for an updated design cover that is more resistant to thermal cycling. That is probably what they did to your car last time.
The reservoir has a tendency to fail after a cooling system repair.
I get burned all the time, when we fill them up the sensor float dies and the low coolant light stays on. It can be an expensive part and I hate having to make that second phone call to tell someone after they fixed whatever component in their cooling system, now they need a reservoir.

codewize
04-20-07, 10:53 AM
I don't have a floor :( only a gravel driveway.


low coolant message is the #1 complaint for a crossover concern. Most customer do not look at the floor.

THE VILLE
04-27-07, 05:26 PM
Ewill I need my water pump changed would u be willing to do it

ewill3rd
04-27-07, 08:26 PM
I can do it in the shop, I don't do side work though so if you want me to do it you'll have to bring it in.

Can you get PM's?

BodybyFisher
05-29-07, 12:49 AM
8.2,
Usually the crossover leaks never hit the ground. They are pretty small and usually evaporate from the engine heat before they leak down to the floor.
Sometimes if you look carefully you can see residue or a puddle on top of the transmission, over behind the engine.
If you are underneath you might see some coolant drips where the engine and trans bolt together, but as I said most of the time you won't see anything on the floor.
On an '03 Deville I think there was a bulletin for an updated design cover that is more resistant to thermal cycling. That is probably what they did to your car last time.
The reservoir has a tendency to fail after a cooling system repair.
I get burned all the time, when we fill them up the sensor float dies and the low coolant light stays on. It can be an expensive part and I hate having to make that second phone call to tell someone after they fixed whatever component in their cooling system, now they need a reservoir.

I understand why the reservoir fails, but does it fail immediately?, and did you say you got burned when it failed? Why does the low coolant sensor float die when you refill them?

I am doing this job now on my 96 Deville. I am having difficulty getting to the lower rear bolts near the firewall. Do I need to remove the electrical harness to get clearance?

The electrical harness goes to the O2 sensor, fan relays, ABS, and I think the oil pressure switch, does it go to the oil level sensor also? Are there any tips or precautions to getting this harness out? The harness appears to include fuse modules from the relay center also.

I was thinking that I would like to affix the gaskets in place can I use the GM Assembly Adhesive (comes in tubes, that may not be the name), to hold them in place?

I was thinking of using a locking flex head ratcheting wrench, what do you use to get at those bolts? Thanks for any help, Mike

ewill3rd
05-29-07, 06:55 AM
Mike,

You will have to "move" the harness out of your way.
There are a few connections you'll have to unhook and some grounds you will have to remove from the block.
The coolant temp sensor is in the back with a ground wire.
You just have to loosen everything enough to pull it out of the way, that is the real challenge of the job.
I use a ratcheting flex head wrench on the hard ones and some regular stuff on the ones that can be reached.
Don't glue the gaskets on, put them on dry. Just put the seals on and put the bolts through and balance the crossover so they stay in place (quite a challenge but doable).
Sealers and adhesives will just make them leak sooner.

As for the reservoirs...I am not sure why they fail, sometimes they fail right when we fill them up, sometimes after the test drive when we are finished.
No rhyme or reason but they seem to just stop "floating".
HTH

BodybyFisher
05-29-07, 08:10 PM
Thanks ewill, that is a BIG help, I appreciate your tips greatly. I will post my experience and photos next week. There is not much information in the FSM for some reason on the crossover. The SI info shows 18 ft lbs for the 8 bolts is that torque spec still good?

Are any of these bolts WET? I took a couple of the bolts out and they were wet with coolant and coolant poured out. I was surprised to see that. The bolts that were WET had a RED coating on the threads (thread lock?), must I replace that coating?

In conjunction with this job I am replacing the ISS speed sensor. Thank you, Mike

ewill3rd
05-29-07, 09:15 PM
Are you taking the trans out?
The ISS is a much bigger job than the crossover that is for sure.
You don't have to remove the trans for the ISS but I was just wondering.

As far as the bolts being "wet", they go through open holes in the head so when you remove them you open the water jacket, coolant will run out.
I'd have to look to see if they recommend sealer on the threads.
For something like that I might recommend cleaning the bolts and using a liquid teflon type sealer and torqing to that spec, should still be good.
I'd have to get out the paper manual to see some of that stuff, '96 didn't have much on the computerized version of the manual.
It is hard to torque most of them because of where they are, but you can use your torque wrench to get a feel for how tight they should be.

Good luck, let me know if you have more q's.

BodybyFisher
05-29-07, 09:46 PM
Thanks for the info on the bolts being wet, if you find out anything about the teflon sealer I would appreciate it..

Yes, I am dropping my carriage using 6 bolts and nuts to slowly drop the carriage. Logan recently used this techique. My main job was the ISS sensor, this crossover is the 'lead in' :) Here is my ISS thread and Logans link to his 'bolt method'. Thanks for you help, I may lean on you again at some point, Thanks

ISS Sensor Thread just beginning:
http://caddyinfo.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=13481

Logan's bolt method, see the link in the first post:
http://caddyinfo.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=13518

Thanks

TheeSlowPoke
11-05-07, 10:38 PM
Hello ewill,

I noticed two drops of antifreeze on the floor yesterday. Couldn't find where it is coming from, noticed a drop where the engine and tranny bolt up on the left rear of the engine just ahead of the flywheel. Figure it is from the crossover.

Do I "need" to fix it? So, what if I don't take it apart and replace the gaskets and just let it leak?

What's next, are the head gaskets going to need replacement soon, too? If so, would it hurt just to wait until then?

Reading through your thread you mention the reservoir - are you saying to replace it while the crossover repair is being done? Sounds like it, but I am not sure.

Ranger
11-05-07, 11:06 PM
No, leaving it alone will not cause a head gasket failure. If it is a very small leak, add 4 sealant tabs to the radiator hose and that may seal it up.

TheeSlowPoke
11-06-07, 12:04 AM
OK - Thanks Ranger!

I had the coolant replaced in my 2000 DTS last summer. This is the one with the leak. I doubt they put the tabs in. They did use Dex-Cool.

ewill3rd
11-06-07, 07:23 AM
Head gasket failures are often a result of cooling system abuse. As long as you keep the system filled a small leak won't hurt much. It will just leak and cost money to keep it filled and make a mess.

What I was talking about with the reservoir is that they often fail when the system is drained and refilled.
It is not a mandatory replacement, just often times it will need done after the car is fixed.

Seal tabs might help for a while, you should eventually get this fixed.

TheeSlowPoke
11-21-07, 11:28 PM
Pulled the bottom hose last Thursday and added three crushed tablets. Lost only about 1 pint of coolant in the process.

Earlier this year I had the car in to a local shop to have a leaking A/C line replaced and the A/C system charged. I had him replace the water pump (it had a small leak at the time) and change the coolant while he was at it. The dex-coolant that drained out when I pulled the hose last week was clear - I called and asked the guy if he added the additive as is recommended in the manual and he said he didn't. So, it has been running with straight Dex-coolant for the last 7 months.

So now, I will wait and see. Actually, I will crawl under and take a look tomorrow. Hopefully I won't see any indication of further leaks.

Thanks for your help!

mtflight
12-15-08, 01:29 PM
Sorry to revive this thread... if it takes 6 hrs for a novice, how long does it take for a pro? My "friendly" Cadillac dealer is $125/hr. 03 DHS smelling coolant, none on the floor... for about a month or longer... Couple' times I've seen a small puddle about the size of a quarter right by the metal brace between engine and trans. When up on a lift, I can't see anything, but if there was a leak I would suspect it's that same area.. between trans and engine, toward the driver side. Nothing can be seen from the top and I've used flashlights and mirrors.... these pictures tell me it is probably one of those small gaskets.... kinda bummed about that.

Is this why the original N* had the coolant sealer pellets put in, to avoid too many of these nuisance leaks? This morning, on the way into work I get the "Check Coolant Level" After reading this I am going to top off that coolant ASAP so as to not damage the float level sensor...

I'm wondering how long I would stall this from worsening, if I added said Barsleak powder as I added on the Eldorado religiously with each coolant evacuation/refill?

Ranger
12-15-08, 03:38 PM
If it is a small leak, there is a chance that the tabs may seal it. Don't go crazy with them or you may clog the heater core or radiator.

No that is not the reason for the tabs. This crossover leak seems to be more prevalent on the 2000+ engines for some reason.

mtflight
12-15-08, 04:24 PM
If it is a small leak, there is a chance that the tabs may seal it. Don't go crazy with them or you may clog the heater core or radiator.

No that is not the reason for the tabs. This crossover leak seems to be more prevalent on the 2000+ engines for some reason.

I just got back from topping it off, and was surprised I was only low about an inch from the full-cold mark (I probably added about 1/2 - 3/4 cup of Dex 50/50 pre-mix when cool).

By the way, I'm not sure I understand all the markings and indicators on the coolant reservoir tank. I see the "FULL COLD" line that apparently points to between the black part of the tank and the clear part. Then some marks on the side (horizontal lines) then a protruding tab on the front left corner. The clear tank is an improvement from the dark ones, but figuring out where it should be is ambiguous at best, or it's too simple for me to see it that way.

Did the 2003 (mid-year) come with the sealant tabs? I see no labels indicating so. This car had the water pump changed almost 2 years ago, at 40-some-K miles at the dealership.

Ranger
12-15-08, 05:44 PM
The coolant level is not that critical. The halfway mark (between black and translucent) is about right when cold.

They stopped using the tabs around '01 I think. I don't use them anymore.

mtflight
12-15-08, 05:54 PM
hmmm... maybe you can send some my way? I wish there was a less messy way to do it than the lower radiator hose (I don't want any neighborhood cats to "drink the Kool-Aid").

ewill3rd
12-15-08, 06:54 PM
Actually the seal tabs are recommended for the 4.5 and 4.9 but not for the N*.
You CAN use the seal tabs (what we used to call cadillac pills) if you have small leaks and they will work okay for a while.
It takes me between 3 and 6 hours usually depending on what year they are. The newest ones ('06 and up) are easier.
Good thing too, because you have to remove the crossover to do the water pump!!

Submariner409
12-15-08, 07:21 PM
.......from the 2002 Cadillac Seville Factory Service Manual:

(and the red, black, white, yellow sticker on the radiator sight shield also calls for the GM supplement tablets)

Ranger
12-15-08, 07:36 PM
hmmm... maybe you can send some my way? I wish there was a less messy way to do it than the lower radiator hose (I don't want any neighborhood cats to "drink the Kool-Aid").
Stick them in the upper hose. There is less coolant loss that way. The other option (less mess) would be to drain the coolant and then mix the tabs with it. Once broken down well, pour it back into the surge tank.

I can send you some tabs if you like, but it wold probably be faster to get them from Walmart. I don't think they are very expensive.

ewill3rd
12-16-08, 07:55 AM
Well someone lied to me.... those bums!
Yeah, I'd go by the manual.

mtflight
12-16-08, 05:09 PM
So maybe it was 2003 when they stopped using them? I don't have any stickers under the hood as I did with the ETC. I think "bob" said 1 of the Bar's leak golden seal tubes for the N* and 2 for the 4.5/9...

I'm always afraid of leaving air in the system and having some kind of head gasket issue. After replacing the radiator on the ETC I saw 228 for the first time and the car kept running warmer than usual.. until my 2 instances in the 250s where the only thing that worked was pulling over and idling to bring the temp down. The coolant was dripping out the overflow hose after those.... ugly memories.

Ranger
12-16-08, 06:17 PM
I'm always afraid of leaving air in the system and having some kind of head gasket issue.
Don't worry about it. It's self purging and will purge any air left in it as long as the purge line is clear. The sealant tabs tend to clog that sometimes. Another reason I don't use them.

ewill3rd
12-16-08, 10:12 PM
I have a cool tool that uses a venturi to pull a "vacuum" on the cooling system and then fill it.
It works great but I think they are pricey. GM sent them out as a special tool but no one knows they exist.
It is awesome and rarely ever have I had to top a system off after using it.

mtflight
02-05-09, 11:06 PM
Adding the 2 golden seal tubes to the upper hose, and it worked. No more coolant smell.

Unfortunately the "floater" coolant level sensor seems to have moved up: the reservoir is 3/4 full, and if I take some coolant out to put it in the middle, I get a "check coolant level" message in the DIC. I hope it's not a sign that the sensor is going to go south on me.