: Mark Christopher Cadillac Blows!!!!!



Barak
12-06-05, 06:23 PM
After my first run in with those afaces at Mark Christopher, http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=49862, I figured I would give them another shot since they are right down the street from me. This time to just replace the battery and take a look at the differential bushing for the clunk.

When I pulled up to the service area I purposely left the vehicle in KOEO position with the lights on, because five minutes of this is all it will take to drain the battery to the point where the engine won't turn over. This has been the case for about a month now and is by no means an isolated incident. Right before I left Mark Christopher I tried to start it and sure enough it wouldn't crank, so I figured that this would be proof enough that the battery needs to be replaced. Keep in mind that on Sunday I had to call Onstar to give me a jump because the damn thing wouldn't start. Scott, the service advisor, said that they probably wouldn't be able to get to the clunk issue by the end of the day, but that was understandable since I hadn't made an appointment.

Around 5PM yesterday I get a call from Scott saying that the battery has passed all the tests and they think something strange is going on and would like to keep it until tomorrow. I said okay, since I don't really need the car until Wednesday.

I just got a call from Scott saying that the battery is still testing fine and that they can't duplicate the problem and for me to come pick up the car. I said why should I pick up the car when there is clearly a problem and I am just going to be left stranded again. I then told him, let's do some deductive reasoning here to figure out what the problem might be. I said clearly there is not a drain, nor are any of the cables a problem since I can start the car just fine if it sits for a week. But if I leave it with the key on for five minutes with the lights on or even just the radio on, the vehicle will not start. Scott then replied that it shouldn't be able to have the key left on with the lights on for that long (5 minutes) because there are too many electronics in the car. I then asked him if he was aware of what the reserve capacity on the battery was. He said he didn't know, but I said we can safely assume that it is about 90 minutes. I told him that means that if the alternator completely takes a crap while I'm driving at night with the lights on, that the battery alone will be able to power the vehicle for ninety minutes before it drops below the threshold voltage. He denied this as if I was making it up. He kept insisting that his hands were tied and that I would have to pay for the battery replacement since the battery tested fine. I said that the dealership should have to pay for the battery to keep the customer happy, especially considering the horrible experience I had with them before, when he told me that I would be treated like family if I gave them another chance; so he's a liar also. He said that he would test it one more time and try to replicate the problem that happened a day earlier.

He called back a short while later and said that the battery tested fine and started even with the key on with the lights on and radio on for five minutes. I then suggested that they test a failed battery and use the ticket from that to replace mine under warranty. He said that's dishonest and it's stealing. I said no, it's customer service. He said no that's thievery and I want to sleep well tonight. He then said I am going to refer you to the service manager and I said please do. He then said he's not at his desk right now. I asked him what his name was and he said Dave something. I said Dave, that was the guy that approved of the "fix" last time I brought my car to Mark Christopher and he's a total joke. I said well that says a lot about the operation over there; is there anyone that is even half way competent?

After I got off the phone with Scott, I immediately called Kyle Hulings, a GM customer service representative, whose phone number I got from this forum from a person having a similar issue. I'm actually on hold with him right now as I'm typing this, as he is calling Mark Christopher to get the other side of the story. So far he has been absolutely great to deal with.

I just got off the phone with Kyle and he said that he was put on hold and transfered all over Mark Christopher until he finally got Scott's voicemail. Kyle said that this will be his primary focus for the next 24 hours and he will get back to me as soon as he can.

LV_V
12-06-05, 06:29 PM
Hopefully all works out for you. I hope Kyle can light a fire under the service manager's ass; seems that most of them need it, especially mine...

Katech
12-06-05, 06:31 PM
After my first run in with those afaces at Mark Christopher, http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=49862, I figured I would give them another shot since they are right down the street from me. This time to just replace the battery and take a look at the differential bushing for the clunk.

When I pulled up to the service area I purposely left the vehicle in KOEO position with the lights on, because five minutes of this is all it will take to drain the battery to the point where the engine won't turn over. This has been the case for about a month now and is by no means an isolated incident. Right before I left Mark Christopher I tried to start it and sure enough it wouldn't crank, so I figured that this would be proof enough that the battery needs to be replaced. Keep in mind that on Sunday I had to call Onstar to give me a jump because the damn thing wouldn't start. Scott, the service advisor, said that they probably wouldn't be able to get to the clunk issue by the end of the day, but that was understandable since I hadn't made an appointment.

Around 5PM yesterday I get a call from Scott saying that the battery has passed all the tests and they think something strange is going on and would like to keep it until tomorrow. I said okay, since I don't really need the car until Wednesday.

I just got a call from Scott saying that the battery is still testing fine and that they can't duplicate the problem and for me to come pick up the car. I said why should I pick up the car when there is clearly a problem and I am just going to be left stranded again. I then told him, let's do some deductive reasoning here to figure out what the problem might be. I said clearly there is not a drain, nor are any of the cables a problem since I can start the car just fine if it sits for a week. But if I leave it with the key on for five minutes with the lights on or even just the radio on, the vehicle will not start. Scott then replied that it shouldn't be able to have the key left on with the lights on for that long (5 minutes) because there are too many electronics in the car. I then asked him if he was aware of what the reserve capacity on the battery was. He said he didn't know, but I said we can safely assume that it is about 90 minutes. I told him that means that if the alternator completely takes a crap while I'm driving at night with the lights on, that the battery alone will be able to power the vehicle for ninety minutes before it drops below the threshold voltage. He denied this as if I was making it up. He kept insisting that his hands were tied and that I would have to pay for the battery replacement since the battery tested fine. I said that the dealership should have to pay for the battery to keep the customer happy, especially considering the horrible experience I had with them before, when he told me that I would be treated like family if I gave them another chance; so he's a liar also. He said that he would test it one more time and try to replicate the problem that happened a day earlier.

He called back a short while later and said that the battery tested fine and started even with the key on with the lights on and radio on for five minutes. I then suggested that they test a failed battery and use the ticket from that to replace mine under warranty. He said that's dishonest and it's stealing. I said no, it's customer service. He said no that's thievery and I want to sleep well tonight. He then said I am going to refer you to the service manager and I said please do. He then said he's not at his desk right now. I asked him what his name was and he said Dave something. I said Dave, that was the guy that approved of the "fix" last time I brought my car to Mark Christopher and he's a total joke. I said well that says a lot about the operation over there; is there anyone that is even half way competent?

After I got off the phone with Scott, I immediately called Kyle Hulings, a GM customer service representative, whose phone number I got from this forum from a person having a similar issue. I'm actually on hold with him right now as I'm typing this, as he is calling Mark Christopher to get the other side of the story. So far he has been absolutely great to deal with.

I just got off the phone with Kyle and he said that he was put on hold and transfered all over Mark Christopher until he finally got Scott's voicemail. Kyle said that this will be his primary focus for the next 24 hours and he will get back to me as soon as he can.

Do you know what amperage that 90 minutes of reserve capacity is at?
Also how many amps your vehicle draws KOEO?

Luna.
12-06-05, 06:46 PM
LMAO--I swear--I thought you were referring to my battery problem several weeks ago as I was reading this..

I am not at all kidding when I say the (near) EXACT same thing happened to me, save for I was at a dealership in the San Diego area.

I was told the same things (we can't do anything, it's testing fine, come back when you are having a problem, etc.).

I was also told there was an unreasonable drain on the battery that would take hours upon hours to diagnose (boy, didn't he feel stupid when I said, "Umm, my cell phone is charging inside the cabin right now...").

Some of the conversation that really annoyed me was being told (same as you) that we shouldn't leave the key in the on position for even a few moments...as if the battery would die THAT fast...I'm like, "Umm, doesn't that mean that there IS a problem??"

And what on earth is the logic of sending us ON OUR WAY WITH A DEFECTIVE BATTERY? What--you think I want to call and get a jump again? Yeah, being stranded is really cool... :thepan:

Apparently, they need this "dead battery" code in order to replace the battery under warranty if it's testing fine. Lest, their hands are tied. While I can somewhat understand the logic of not mindlessly changing batteries at a customers whim, there must be SOME logic. I mean, why on earth would someone with a car that is ~4 months old take time out of his day to say the battery is having issues? What--I'm trying to get a free 4 months out of them for a new battery? :cookoo:

Barak
12-06-05, 07:14 PM
Do you know what amperage that 90 minutes of reserve capacity is at?
Also how many amps your vehicle draws KOEO?

Really irrelevant but in any case as far as I know the reserve capacity rating is done at a standard draw.

According to the dealership the amp draw with the KOEO with the lights on and radio on is 16-17 amps, very low by any standard, probably due to the HID headlights.

I appreciate the support LV V and Luna.

moldowan
12-06-05, 07:56 PM
same issue here!
Luckily cavender caddy in SA replaced my battery with no complaints and all has been fine since. Your service center SUCKS!!!!
-moldy

urbanski
12-06-05, 08:00 PM
go the the faq, dealer rankings, and rate them....warn others. you can leave comments, too

Barak
12-06-05, 08:26 PM
Thanks for the tip Urb.

What did you end up doing about the dead battery problem, Luna?

Luna.
12-06-05, 09:07 PM
Thanks for the tip Urb.

What did you end up doing about the dead battery problem, Luna?

After I told the guy how lame it was to send me on my way when it was probably going to happen to me again, he gave me his own business card, with his personal cell number on it, and told me to call him if it happened while I was in San Diego.

It did. I called him. He came out, got the code off my dead battery, said that was what he needed, installed a new battery on the spot..voila.

He also informed me that ON ROADSIDE ASSISTANCE, they have much more leeway than they do at the dealership. In other words, I probably could have had a new one installed if I called him for roadside assistance than when I had it at the dealer.

In any case, I find the process really stupid. For instance, if Cadillac roadside assistance helped you, why couldn't the dealer rely on that as proof that the battery was defective?? :annoyed:

ctsvett
12-06-05, 09:15 PM
John,
Trying to help here....

They sound like they suck...

Here is the procedure they need to follow:
http://www.cadillacfaq.com/faq/tsb/data/tsb/02-06-03-010a.pdf

They do need a code (with some exceptions)
http://www.cadillacfaq.com/faq/tsb/data/tsb/battery-claim.pdf

I say, drive the car home, wait till teh battery dies, call cadillac roadside assistance, make them jump you/ tow you... keep doing this... It will get very expensive for cadillac and they will replace you battery.. It also says that they dont NEED a test if you use roadside assist... so that should help..

http://www.cadillacfaq.com/faq/tsb/data/pi/PIC3589.pdf

Here are some other things..

http://www.cadillacfaq.com/faq/tsb/data/04-06-03-015a.pdf
http://www.cadillacfaq.com/faq/tsb/data/02-06-03-006b.pdf

This is a known issue and I cant find the TSB about the bad batch of batteries.. I will keep looking...

Good luck Barak and let me know if I can help.. I am meeting with the regional rep on friday morning at penseke for my own issues (Ishminder and I went in together today hoping power= numbers...)

Reed

Katech
12-06-05, 09:28 PM
Really irrelevant but in any case as far as I know the reserve capacity rating is done at a standard draw.

According to the dealership the amp draw with the KOEO with the lights on and radio on is 16-17 amps, very low by any standard, probably due to the HID headlights.

I appreciate the support LV V and Luna.


How is that irrelevant? That is why I asked what the draw was on a CTS-V. If the 90 minute reserve capacity is rated at a standard draw of say, 10 amps, then it would be save to say that IF the CTS-V had a higher KOEO draw than most cars and was 20 amps then the reserve capacity would be 45 minutes. Granted that is nowhere near the 5 minutes that he mentioned, but I'm just using these numbers as examples and that is why I asked the question.

ctsvett
12-06-05, 09:52 PM
Barak,
I can leave my car in KOEO for more than 5 mintues.. There must me a problem with your car.... Tell the moron at the dealer that... Surprisingly that is not good enough for GM. I bet it would be for lexus...

I am getting REALLY PISSED OFF about GM service.... I hear horror stories all day from you guys and I am having it happen to me too....

EVERYONE IS SOCAL: would everyone (luna excluded) be willing to go to a dealership in mass to have our cars service. Maybe we can get a dealership to give a crap if we dangle a bunch of business in front of them...
The following are NOT options: Mark Christopher, Coast, Peneske, Tustin

Any ideas?

I wish lindsay was close to me.

Reed

Barak
12-06-05, 10:18 PM
Thanks for all the support guys.


He also informed me that ON ROADSIDE ASSISTANCE, they have much more leeway than they do at the dealership.

On Sunday, Onstar told me that they would try to send a tech to replace the battery, but instead sent a guy from a towing company who just gave me a jump.


I say, drive the car home, wait till teh battery dies, call cadillac roadside assistance, make them jump you/ tow you... keep doing this... It will get very expensive for cadillac and they will replace you battery.. It also says that they dont NEED a test if you use roadside assist... so that should help..

I think I will try this next. Immediately when I get the car home I will leave the key on for five minutes, and then have Onstar send a tech with a battery to replace it. Thanks for the advice.

I heard back from Kyle, the GM customer service rep, who informed me that he had left several messages with Mark Christopher and has had absolutely no response. He asked me if I could leave my car at the dealership until this thing was sorted out. So my car is still there and this story and thread will undoubtedly continue. I find myself now wondering if I will ever againconsider buying another GM vehicle after this BS.

Luna.
12-06-05, 11:02 PM
EVERYONE IS SOCAL: would everyone (luna excluded) be willing to go to a dealership in mass to have our cars service. Maybe we can get a dealership to give a crap if we dangle a bunch of business in front of them...
The following are NOT options: Mark Christopher, Coast, Peneske, Tustin

Any ideas?

My understanding is that the Caddy dealership in Sherman Oaks (Casa de Cadillac is it? They may have moved to Van Nuys though--not sure) is a great one to deal with. The owner and one of the techs (??) own a CTS-V is my understanding...

showey
12-06-05, 11:18 PM
In response.
We have tested Barak's battery no less than seven times over two days all with the same result. Good Battery. We used two different machines, both with the same results. My Tech left the lights / radio and key on for 20 minutes and retested, again, good battery. Today at Baraks request, I personally left the key on, radio and headlights on for 6 minutes, then, load tested the battery at 170 amps, twice and again on a separate tester, all with the same results. "Good battery" after all of the punishment on the battery the engine cranked up perfectly. I inspected for suspect date codes as described in one the TSB's and I had found that this is in fact a replacement battery (confirmed in GMVISS) I checked all TSB's that may apply and none of them apply to this vehicle.
Unfortunately, at times, we in the dealerships must answer to GM and without a failure, we will not "throw" parts at a car. Neither on GMís dime nor on our customers. I would invite anyone who reads this who expects honest, professional and personal service to try Mark Christopher for them selves.
I have little doubt that Barak has some sort of (intermittent) failure and with that, I would much rather locate and repair the root cause of that failure as opposed to throwing band aids and guesses at the car. I gave Barak the customer service number personally as it may be possible to get GM to do something beyond the dealerís ability to replace a known GOOD part.
As for the personal attacks, no Barak, I am not a liar (as requested by you) and I will not cheat you, GM or any of my other customers... and that is how I sleep at night. For you to ask me to test a known bad battery and "sell" that to GM is Totally unacceptable and dishonest. How would you feel if thatís how I treated you when you were out of warranty?
Please remember, selling service (Warranty or otherwise) is how we get paid and support our families. Why would I want a no charge repair order?
There are weak, dishonest people out there in all walks of life. I, do my best, not to be one of them.
Good luck.

Barak
12-06-05, 11:58 PM
I would invite anyone who reads this who expects honest, professional and personal service to try Mark Christopher for them selves.
Read my two posts and judge for yourself, don't bother with Mark Christopher for sales or service unless you like to be treated like you're purchasing a used Aveo. I tried to buy my car from Mark Christopher and they just blew me off. That's a shocker.


I have little doubt that Barak has some sort of (intermittent) failure and with that, I would much rather locate and repair the root cause of that failure as opposed to throwing band aids and guesses at the car.
The intermittent is called the battery. And as far as locating and repairing the root cause of the failure, you told me to come pick up my car rather than finding the "real problem." Much like OJ is trying to find the "real killers."

As for the personal attacks, no Barak, I am not a liar

What did you tell me after Mark Christopher screwed up the first time Scott. Do you remember, we sat down and you said if I gave Mark Christopher a second chance that you would treat me like family. I would hate to be a part of your family, or you are just like I said, a liar.

For you to ask me to test a known bad battery and "sell" that to GM is Totally unacceptable and dishonest.

That is called dealing with corporate policy to provide the best possible customer service certainly not unacceptable.

How would you feel if thatís how I treated you when you were out of warranty?
I don't know what you mean by this, but I feel like crap and my vehicle is still under warranty.


Unfortunately, at times, we in the dealerships must answer to GM and without a failure, we will not "throw" parts at a car. Neither on GMís dime nor on our customers.
Maybe you should check Flatrater.com, hosted by probably the best GM technician in the country and even he occasionally "throws" parts at a car.

I gave Barak the customer service number personally as it may be possible to get GM to do something beyond the dealerís ability to replace a known GOOD part.
First off, the number you gave me would have done nothing since I would have to go through 20 minutes of automated crap until I got a real person on the phone, if ever. The number I used was a completely different number with a direct extension to Kyle. And you damn well know that the batttery is not a known good part. I know if it was your car and your tech came back to you and said the battery checks out fine that you would still have him change it and find a way to make GM pay for it.

And if you are so in the right Scott, then why didn't you or anyone else at Mark Christopher return any of Kyle's messages after over three hours?

Oh, and this is just one of the forums that I told you about where there is an overwhelming disdain for GM customer service and you especially are no exception. I know when I told you about this disdain, you disagreed and had just the opposite opinion, but now that I see that you have a whopping two posts, I was obviously wrong to question your wisdom on the matter.

Anyone have Mark LaNeve's email. I'm sure he'll be interested to hear about all this as well.

Katech
12-07-05, 12:20 AM
Read my two posts and judge for yourself, don't bother with Mark Christopher for sales or service unless you like to be treated like you're purchasing a used Aveo. I tried to buy my car from Mark Christopher and they just blew me off. That's a shocker.


The intermittent is called the battery. And as far as locating and repairing the root cause of the failure, you told me to come pick up my car rather than finding the "real problem." Much like OJ is trying to find the "real killers."


What did you tell me after Mark Christopher screwed up the first time Scott. Do you remember, we sat down and you said if I gave Mark Christopher a second chance that you would treat me like family. I would hate to be a part of your family, or you are just like I said, a liar.


That is called dealing with corporate policy to provide the best possible customer service certainly not unacceptable.

I don't know what you mean by this, but I feel like crap and my vehicle is still under warranty.


Maybe you should check Flatrater.com, hosted by probably the best GM technician in the country and even he occasionally "throws" parts at a car.

First off, the number you gave me would have done nothing since I would have to go through 20 minutes of automated crap until I got a real person on the phone, if ever. The number I used was a completely different number with a direct extension to Kyle. And you damn well know that the batttery is not a known good part. I know if it was your car and your tech came back to you and said the battery checks out fine that you would still have him change it and find a way to make GM pay for it.

And if you are so in the right Scott, then why didn't you or anyone else at Mark Christopher return any of Kyle's messages after over three hours?

Oh, and this is just one of the forums that I told you about where there is an overwhelming disdain for GM customer service and you especially are no exception. I know when I told you about this disdain, you disagreed and had just the opposite opinion, but now that I see that you have a whopping two posts, I was obviously wrong to question your wisdom on the matter.

Anyone have Mark LaNeve's email. I'm sure he'll be interested to hear about all this as well.




Wow. This is why I don't work for dealerships anymore. There's no way to win in this situation. I can't count how many times I've had this same argument with a customer, feeling helpless because I was just the middle-man between GM and the customer.

On one hand, the dealer is right. The car is not failing now and without a documented failure, warranty work cannot be performed. The fact that the customer is asking the dealer to commit warranty fraud is proposterous. They would rather loose you as a customer than risk an audit and the penalties for being guilty of warranty fraud.

On the other hand, the customer knows there is a failure, he's duplicated it. He feels the dealer is cheating him and I don't know why. They don't get paid unless they perform a warranty repair. Why would they not want to find something?

I would also like to know, how is an Aveo customer entited to less satisfactory customer service than a CTS-V customer?

Anyways this story is the same every time and nobody wins. I feel sorry for both of you. I am just thankful I no longer work for dealerships. Working in 7 dealerships over the years (5 GM, 1 Ford, 1 Chrysler) has made me all too familiar with this situation and I'm thankful I work for Katech. :)

showey
12-07-05, 12:21 AM
John.
I refuse to get into a "pissing contest" with you on the matter, I can tell you that as of 5:30 PST, I have had no contact from anyone at GM Directly or in my voice mail. I will fully cooperate with anything that GM may offer and I am completley open to suggestions. Oh, by the way, in your own words, Batteries are VERY seldom "intermittant".

GAGS-V
12-07-05, 12:32 AM
Barak, interesting reply to your letter from showey. As you know, I too am from the "Inland Empire" and I wonder where to go for service. I will not go to Mark Christopher until (if) they fix your problem.
I have had problems with my dealer since day one (Kennedy) in San Bernardino. I will give them the chance next week to: 1) do a correct oil change, last time they put way too much oil in and never did fix it (they said it would burn off) and is still above the full line 5,000 miles later. 2) either fix or get me a new wheel (been waiting since June) that they scratched while fixing a flat. 3) fix the molding above the front windshield, again (looks like soft pasta). 4) Find and replace the bottom of my computer module and then replace all those little plastic hooks (remember when you and Reed found the module just hanging? It is still (I hope) tied up with your plastic tie straps. 5) Time for the new radio with button paint that won't (I hope come off). 6) In the morning, I get a "check coolent level" so maybe I will get in line for one of the radiators that are on national B.O. I have had more things go on with this car (still love it though) in eight months than I have ever had with my 1999 Lightining (which I still have).
If GM were to read these posts it could probably save itself, I have to wonder though. Face it showey: You dealers suck and IF one of you were to really get it through to your people on what customer service is really all about (go down the road to the Lexus dealer (Crown) and check them out) you would be so busy and the word would travel so fast it would make your head swim.
I stopped reading and responding to this board for a while because I really do LOVE THE CAR but hate how we are being treated by you (the dealers). It is post after post about crappy dealers and how they won't stand behind their product.
Showey, feel free to respond to my letter, keep in mind however that I spent two afternoons Looking at V's at Mark Christopher with no one (except the pretty girl that answers the phones) giving me the time of day. Sounds familiar does it not?

ctsvett
12-07-05, 12:37 AM
There is a known issue with the batteries... GM isnt always right about vin breakpoints and TSBs.. >Trust me...

Dont you think the POSSIBILITY of GM denying your battery claim (its not fraud, by the way) if it fixed John's issue would be worth not having to have the conversation?.... Basically, if you changed out the battery, sent him home and it failed again, at least you would have ruled out the battery as the cause. Oh, and you would not have had an angry customer... If it fixed the problem, then everyone wins. But instead, now, you have an angry and upset customer who still has a broken car... This is NOT customer service... Customer service is trying another battery to SATISFY the customer... (I dont want any crap about this method being expensive to you- I can bet you lost a bunch of business by this post going public- so now you end up losing more business).

Since he called roadside assist you have the ability to warranty return the battery to GM per the above listed warranty admin memo... You will not be paying anything. You charge the labor and parts to GM. Gm will pay for customer satisfaction repairs.... Look it up in your system... Eiethr way, you bill GM for the diagnostic work and the battery...

Its really just sad that it has come to this... I LOVE GM which is why I spend so much effort working on websites and forums trying to help people. All they get is nonesense from the dealers. I cant tell you how many e-mails I get from people about how I helped them solve their problem when the dealer could not. THIS IS NOT MY JOB... I have a day-job to keep me busy, i do this on my free time. On the other hand, helping YOUR customers is your job...

This is just sad to me (I am having service issues now too). I doubt we would be having this conversation if this was a $50K lexus we were talking about.

Reed

P.S. Why cant we all go to lindsay cadillac...

Barak
12-07-05, 12:39 AM
The car is not failing now and without a documented failure

The documented failure happened at the dealership, when the car would not start. What more could you want.



He feels the dealer is cheating him and I don't know why.

I don't feel like I'm being cheated, I feel like the dealership isn't doing everything in their power to help me.


The fact that the customer is asking the dealer to commit warranty fraud is proposterous. They would rather loose you as a customer than risk an audit and the penalties for being guilty of warranty fraud.

Hardly fraud, do a search for dead battery and you will you find dealerships that did just the same thing for their customers. Besides, they are asking me to take my car and be potentially stranded somewhere because the dealership refuses to cover the cost of the battery.



I would also like to know, how is an Aveo customer entited to less satisfactory customer service than a CTS-V customer?

They aren't entitled to any less customer service, it's just something funny I like to say.


I have had no contact from anyone at GM Directly or in my voice mail. I will fully cooperate with anything that GM may offer and I am completley open to suggestions. Oh, by the way, in your own words, Batteries are VERY seldom "intermittant".

And to you Scott, I will have to ask Kyle if he was lying to me when he said that he left multiple messages at your dealership, including one to you. But judging from your record, I can almost bet on who is really lying here.

And as far as the batteries go and judging from all the complaints on this forum regarding batteries, AC Delco batteries are quite often intermittent. Most of the batteries I deal with are from companies that aren't going bankrupt and try to cut costs at every possible turn.

Katech
12-07-05, 12:46 AM
The documented failure happened at the dealership, when the car would not start. What more could you want.



What I mean is, no part has tested bad.






Hardly fraud, do a search for dead battery and you will you find dealerships that did just the same thing for their customers. Besides, they are asking me to take my car and be potentially stranded somewhere because the dealership refuses to cover the cost of the battery.




Taking a failed battery from another vehicle and making a warranty claim on it under your VIN is warranty fraud. Period. If other dealers are doing it they're eating the cost of the battery, not submitting a warranty claim on it.






Barak, don't get me wrong. I'm not arguing for the dealer's side here. I have had enough of this arguing in my day and that is why I no longer work for dealerships. I was merely stating some of my own observations in the business now that I am out of it so that maybe you can understand the reason behind some of the dealer's statements. Therefore you will be more knowledgable in your quest for a solution. The last thing I want to do is get in the middle of THIS argument because there will be no winner.

Barak
12-07-05, 01:02 AM
Thanks for the support Gags. We missed you at the last meet. I hope the next dealership you choose is better than Kennedy, Penske, Crestview, Mark Christopher...the list goes on and on.


Customer service is trying another battery to SATISFY the customer...



Since he called roadside assist you have the ability to warranty return the battery to GM per the above listed warranty admin memo... You will not be paying anything. You charge the labor and parts to GM.

That is what I mean by Scott didn't do everything in his power to help me. Reed has to tell him how to best serve his customers; if anything, that is preposterous. Asking him to fail another dead battery is hardly preposterous when you consider that my other option is being left stranded, so please Katech let's put some things into perspective here.


If other dealers are doing it they're eating the cost of the battery, not submitting a warranty claim on it.

Like I said do a search. You will find one in particular that even posted the failed ticket.

Luna.
12-07-05, 01:05 AM
As I have personal experience regarding the same issue (only from a different dealer), I've put a fair amount of thought into this.

Based on my understanding, it appears that the problem really rests with GMs warranty policies and procedures; they won't honor a battery under warranty unless it "tests" bad.

While I can very much understand what GM is trying to accomplish (i.e. not replacing good batteries when they aren't), the solution that batteries MUST test bad is NOT a good one for the customers---we are forced to have the problem happen over and over again, continue getting stranded and, hopefully (& eventually), have the battery eventually test bad to get it under warranty.

Therein lies the problem--we have to continue getting stranded? Where's the logic in that? You don't have to be an automotive expert to know that batteries often love to be intermittant in its problem behavior (just read a few threads on these forums!), yet it MUST show "bad" to get it fixed? It's just mind-boggling for consumers to go through that due to certain policies and procedures that don't take common sense into account.

In this case, the concept of materiality would be useful here. We are NOT talking about a ultra-expensive component of the car--we are talking about the BATTERY--what--a $80ish dollar item? GM has got to be kidding me. Hell, the sheer labor cost of Mark Christopher's techs spending all that time on it probably cost more than the damn battery!! And it STILL ISN'T FIXED? The cost-benefit doesn't jive in my mind.

Perhaps I'm missing something, but there seems to be a very easy solution for GM: they can get confirmation that the battery is failing via Onstar. The guys that come out could easily record their service to such-and-such automobile and that it needed a jump. With that confirmation, I fail to see what other "proof" GM needs.

showey
12-07-05, 01:08 AM
Gentlemen.
Simply put, we are here to help. We do have guidelines and rules that we must adhere to.
I am aware that anytime we are having issues with our vehicles that it is a frustrating and trying situation.
Rest assured, we at Mark Christopher Cadillac are commited to serving out customers in an honest, friendly and professional manor.
With that, I will no longer post to this thread but I will offer my assistance to those that need it. I apologise that the beaurocracy gets in the way of "Customer Satisfaction" but again, I have guidlines that I must follow.

Luna.
12-07-05, 01:20 AM
Scott (or Mark-Christopher representative),

As Katech, &, to a minor extent myself, have acknowledged, there are policies and procedures that need to be followed by the dealers IF they want to get re-imbursed by GM.

In my mind, *IF* all else failed and GM denied my warranty claim (as a dealer) for a BATTERY (an insignificant item), I'd rather eat the cost of the battery for goodwill then to go through this. I think this is where many people, myself included, would LOVE to see dealers be "customer service" focused.

I'm not trying to be disrespectful, I'm just being honest. Think of the time the technician spent on the car---the dealership eats that now and has no revenue to offset such cost. Granted, hindsight is 20/20, but wouldn't it be better for ALL to just have replaced the battery in the first place and be done with it?

And I agree with the sentiment that a good "customer service" dealer will go a LONG way towards new and repeat business, especially when it comes to CTS-Vs...

blown65
12-07-05, 01:34 AM
ugh, not to take sides, but at what point do you say enough is enough guessing at replacing a part. I'm in a totally different service industry but we dont throw parts at things assuming that is going to fix the problem. I can very much understand the dealerships position on not wanting to replace the battery till it tests bad, or something tests bad. If its such an issue and your that worried about getting stranded then go buy a battery and be done with it.

Secondly, take it to a Battery Plus store or like and have them test it after you do your battery drain and have them document it.

Barak
12-07-05, 01:35 AM
I'd rather eat the cost of the battery for goodwill then to go through this.

I'm not appeasing these afaces. There is no reason why we should be treated like this. Besides James, you're a big guy, you probably could just give them an angry look and they'd replace whatever you wanted, GM policy or not.

The bottom line is that a dealership, after personally witnessing a car not start on their own lot, shouldn't tell the customer to buy a battery if they don't want to be left stranded, regardless of how bad GM policy may be. We aren't talking about a driveability concern here, I will be left stranded if that battery is not replaced.



Rest assured, we at Mark Christopher Cadillac are commited to serving out customers in an honest, friendly and professional manor.

Apparently a "professional manor"[sic] means tightening your oil filter with channel lock pliers. Maybe I should post the picture of that and let the evidence of Mark Christopher's professionalism speak for itself.

Luna.
12-07-05, 02:09 AM
I'm not appeasing these afaces. There is no reason why we should be treated like this.

LOL--apologies my friend for miscommunicating. I was writing this to the DEALER, not you (see the part where I said, "As a dealer"). I believe the dealer should have eaten the cost of the battery... :)



The bottom line is that a dealership, after personally witnessing a car not start on their own lot, shouldn't tell the customer to buy a battery if they don't want to be left stranded, regardless of how bad GM policy may be. We aren't talking about a driveability concern here, I will be left stranded if that battery is not replaced.

I believe I missed this part. Umm--that sure as hell seems like proof...

GAGS-V
12-07-05, 04:47 AM
Customer Service:
Want to know what happens down the street (from Mark Christopher) at Crown Lexus? My wife has a 2003 ES-300 bought new from Crown Lexus in Ontario. This car cost MUCH LESS than does a CTS-V yet Crown: ALWAYS has a Lexus model ready for her when it is service time (no waiting for rental cars for her). On Saturday they will wash her car for free. She has only had one issue with the car in two years (hear that GM)? That issue was that her windshield got a crack in it by a rock flying up and yet Lexus replaced it for free (imagine that GM)! Only problem was is that the new windshield did not seat right and made noise (wind) at 65 mph. No problem, they put in another and made it right. No crap, no waiting, no problems like fighting over a stupid battery, no nothing except "is there anything else we can do for you?" Oh yeah, one more thing or two. If you have a flight going out of Ontario you go to Crown, leave your Lexus, they take you to the airport in a Limo and then pick you up when you come back (they have your car washed and ready for you when you get there) and they always have cold drinks on hand for their customers. WOW makes me wonder why I bought GM???

You guys that support the dealer make me laugh, where do you work so I won't ever visit there (customer service issues). We are talking about more than a stupid battery here. This this issue could cost Barak his life (car not starting). Depends on where he might be when his car won't start or where he is if the car dies and won't start again. To tell Barak to go buy his own battery is insane, it (the car) is under warranty. Something needs to be fixed and it's not happening. Barak is getting the GM runaround. And we wonder why GM is losing market share?

Ishminder
12-07-05, 04:57 AM
Barak...Friday at Penske. Lets just meet there and we'll all get our problems sorted out. I took the day off from work, so Penske can keep me there as long as they want...I will wait all day for the Rep to show. Barak, "power in masses" as reed stated. I would honestly just take it out from the shop and forget Mark Christopher Cadillac. Bring it to penske, have them compare it to Reed and my car! If there is an issue, which there clearly is, they will have to replace it under warranty...and what is better than 3 different V owners to back you up claiming that does not happen with their cars! If possible, everyone else in Southern California, e-mail me at Ishminder@aol.com
and lets all meet at Penske to get our problems taken care of once and for all. Ive given up on GM...talked to their customer service reps...and they cannot do anything! They claim they will send out reps and get this fixed, but then end up saying..."our rep looked at it and it was normal...contact the BBB if you have more problems." I am beginning to regret my purchase of this CTS-V!!!! Lindsay Cadillac...can you please open up a service center here in Southern California?????

powerglide
12-07-05, 05:22 AM
Unfreakin believable......I almost never post negative here and sure as hell rarely post in this section but reading the posts here has made me sick.


Gentlemen.
Simply put, we are here to help. We do have guidelines and rules that we must adhere to.
I am aware that anytime we are having issues with our vehicles that it is a frustrating and trying situation.
Rest assured, we at Mark Christopher Cadillac are commited to serving out customers in an honest, friendly and professional manor.
With that, I will no longer post to this thread but I will offer my assistance to those that need it. I apologise that the beaurocracy gets in the way of "Customer Satisfaction" but again, I have guidlines that I must follow.

thats one lame ass attempt at damage control......you owe me my appetite!

Jesda
12-07-05, 06:22 AM
Gentlemen.
Simply put, we are here to help. We do have guidelines and rules that we must adhere to.
I am aware that anytime we are having issues with our vehicles that it is a frustrating and trying situation.
Rest assured, we at Mark Christopher Cadillac are commited to serving out customers in an honest, friendly and professional manor.
With that, I will no longer post to this thread but I will offer my assistance to those that need it. I apologise that the beaurocracy gets in the way of "Customer Satisfaction" but again, I have guidlines that I must follow.

That is the most ASININE thing I've ever heard. You just lost thousands of dollars in business over a $100 battery and allowed a situation to spin out of control instead of taking OWNERSHIP of the situation and serving your client.

Do you honestly believe that bad word of mouth is limited to the people who read this thread? I hope you do realize that the Internet is a fast way of spreading information, and that the people who read this also have friends and family who buy new cars.

Not only have you tarnished your image with this community, you've further eroded Cadillac's historic reputation. I hope you're proud.

Jesda
12-07-05, 07:50 AM
When this ordeal is over, feel free to post a dealership review:
http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=117

Katshot
12-07-05, 08:43 AM
It's nice to see that some people understand the value of seeing the "Big Picture". It IS ridiculous to have a situation like this. The OEM is bad enough but the dealership itself is downright idiotic to the point of being selfdistructive. If I were the service writer on this I would've quickly realized the gravity of the situation and made sure the customer was kept happy, even if it meant the dealership eating the battery. Bottom line, the customer MUST be made happy, they are your best source of a very rare commodity; RETURN BUSINESS.
IMO, the dealership was being very short-sighted in this situation.

Randy_W
12-07-05, 08:59 AM
If I were the service manager, I would have replaced the battery a long time ago. It's likely however, that the battery is NOT the problem, per se. These modern cars with all the electronics should have 36 or 48 volt systems.
Just for the record, why are leaving your cars ignition and headlights on for more than 5 minutes? If your using your headlights to play basketball at night, start the engine.:histeric:

ewill3rd
12-07-05, 09:45 AM
I am almost scared to get involved in this but as an attempt to keep the peace I'd like to suggest a few actions.

As some may or may not know, Delco batteries are great as long as they stay charged. When they are deep cycled (totally discharged) they have a tendency to start not working so well.
In order for us to replace a battery we HAVE to have a failure code from a small box we refer to as the "midtronics tester". If we don't have a code GM will deny the claim and charge it back to the dealership.
That being said, even a bad Delco battery can maintain a surface charge for a considerable period. In my experience dealing with Delco batteries I could probably name a hundred times where a bad battery actually tested good.
Here are some tips for finding out the truth.

1. Let the car sit overnight at the dealership and test it in the morning BEFORE IT IS STARTED. Most borderline Delco batteries will work fine once you get them started and run them on and off all day, but letting them sit overnight brings out the problem and you can usually get a failure code before you start the car and put a nice fresh surface charge on it.

2. Remember that a "in-vehicle" test is not reliable on the midtronics tester. I can't number the times I have done an in-car test with a "good battery" result and then disconnected the battery and gotten a "replace battery" with an out of car test. In fact you MUST have the out of car failure code to replace the battery (at least on the new version of the tester, it will only give you an out of car code)

3. Get rid of the surface charge. If you have a VAT 40 tester, load the battery with a 300A load for about 15 seconds, do it twice after a short break (to let the tester cool down) 170A is not enough of a load to test a 600 or 700 CCA battery, if you don't believe me read the label and tell me what the load test is supposed to be (it is 1/2 the CCA rating). Then do an out of car test with the midtronics.

Here is the information on the battery:

Cold Cranking Amperes
690 A

Amp Hour Rating
63 AH

Reserve Capacity Rating
110 min

Replacement Battery Number
101-6YR


I wouldn't dare tell you how to treat your customers, but in the instance of this case I think GM gives you the latitude to replace the battery for "Customer Satisfaction" and not have to commit fraud. I understand the position of both parties, hopefully no one thinks I am trying to take sides. I can see both points of view. If after trying the things mentioned above the midtronics doesn't say the battery is bad there is not much you can do except try another dealer.

It is possible that this car could have a parasitic drain on it that is causing it to get weak overnight and not start in the morning. Once the battery is known to have a full charge a parasitic load test should be performed to verify that there is no such drain. While I agree that the description would lead one to believe that the battery is faulty, a drain should be thoroughly investigated to eliminate all doubt, following published procedures. I have had a couple Vs that had similar problems and found a couple that had batteries and a couple that had parasitic loads.

Good luck to everyone involved.
I just hate to see people argue.

BTW, in case it comes up, this is my personal view on this topic and should no way reflect on my employer or our parent corporation (GM). I am just posting to offer some constructive advice and not to criticize one position of the other, I hope that is clear, if it's not let me know and I'll see if I can edit this to reflect that better.
;)

ewill3rd
12-07-05, 09:48 AM
Oh, here is some info for you tech heads about all the terminology

Amp Hour
The amp hour rating of a battery is the amount of time it takes a fully charged battery, being discharged at a constant rate of 1 amperes and a constant temperature of 27°C (80°F), to reach a terminal voltage of 10.5 volts. Refer to Battery Usage for the amp hour rating of the original equipment battery.

Reserve Capacity
Reserve capacity is the amount of time in minutes it takes a fully charged battery, being discharged at a constant rate of 25 amperes and a constant temperature of 27°C (80°F), to reach a terminal voltage of 10.5 volts. Refer to Battery Usage for the reserve capacity rating of the original equipment battery.

Cold Cranking Amperage
The cold cranking amperage is an indication of the ability of the battery to crank the engine at cold temperatures. The cold cranking amperage rating is the minimum amperage the battery must maintain for 30 seconds at -18°C (0°F) while maintaining at least 7.2 volts. Refer to Battery Usage for the cold cranking amperage rating for this vehicle.

Katshot
12-07-05, 09:54 AM
Well said. You should be in the office dude. They could probably use a guy like you.

a64pilot
12-07-05, 11:26 AM
Intermittant electrical problems are usually the fault of a loose ground. That being said I have personally had two Delco batteries leak on me on two different vehicles. Of course the way you find out about a battery leak is after the acid has done considerable damage to the vehicle.I adopted a policy of disposing of the Delco battery and replacing it with an Optima. I haven't done this yet on the V, but I will now as this thread has reminded me to do so. Should I have to do this? NO of course not, but at least with the Optimas I have never had a failure of any kind and I can forget about Batteries. I'm not at all saying anything about the dealer in question here, I'm ignoring it actually as I don't think anything I say would be constructive.
Some of you would say that I'm copping out by replacing the battery in a new vehicle. My answer is simply to say that the battle is not worth the fight to me.

Barak
12-07-05, 12:26 PM
If you have a flight going out of Ontario you go to Crown, leave your Lexus, they take you to the airport in a Limo and then pick you up when you come back (they have your car washed and ready for you when you get there) and they always have cold drinks on hand for their customers. WOW makes me wonder why I bought GM???

Wow that is good service! It looks as though inevitably, we will all be driving a Lexus before we know it.:helpless:

Ishminder,

You know I'm in. I will take Friday off too, call me on my cell later today.


Some of you would say that I'm copping out by replacing the battery in a new vehicle. My answer is simply to say that the battle is not worth the fight to me.

Like you said Pilot, without the home of the brave there wouldn't be a land of the free. If we can be brave enough to bring down dictators, we can certainly be brave enough to demand a new battery in our $50K cars.

Thanks everyone for your input and support.

Luna.
12-07-05, 01:17 PM
It's nice to see that some people understand the value of seeing the "Big Picture". It IS ridiculous to have a situation like this. The OEM is bad enough but the dealership itself is downright idiotic to the point of being selfdistructive. If I were the service writer on this I would've quickly realized the gravity of the situation and made sure the customer was kept happy, even if it meant the dealership eating the battery. Bottom line, the customer MUST be made happy, they are your best source of a very rare commodity; RETURN BUSINESS.
IMO, the dealership was being very short-sighted in this situation.

Exactly my point. :highfive:


In order for us to replace a battery we HAVE to have a failure code from a small box we refer to as the "midtronics tester". If we don't have a code GM will deny the claim and charge it back to the dealership.

I understand what you are saying. In my mind, however, I just believe that the dealer should just pony up the cost of the battery *IF* they weren't able to get reimbursed from GM. It just isn't worth it. We aren't talking about several thousands of dollar of work--we are talking about a battery!! It's not worth that much!


BTW, in case it comes up, this is my personal view on this topic and should no way reflect on my employer or our parent corporation (GM). I am just posting to offer some constructive advice and not to criticize one position of the other, I hope that is clear, if it's not let me know and I'll see

LOL--you sound like a lawyer now.

heavymetals
12-07-05, 01:51 PM
ALL THIS FOR A BATTERY?

Sounds like the dealer wants to fix it, but has constraints and conditions.

Sounds like the owner wants it fixed and his way.

I would have bought a new battery, then go back to the dealer/service if that fixed it.

All your in now is a pissing contest, the car isn't "fixed", and no one is content.:hide:

I don't know why the dealer has a reluctance to swap batteries though.

No big deal in the scheme of things, but I don't run their business.

lawfive
12-07-05, 02:25 PM
Umm... flame suit on.

I'm traveling and so haven't seen this thread until now.

I know Barak and he's cool. Also, I have yet to experience an intermittent problem in my V. That said...

I bought my car at Mark Christopher and have had it serviced nowhere else. My experience: nothing but good customer service and knowledgeable techs. Scott Howie is my service advisor and he's been a class act all the way. Both my diff and tranny have had problems: after reading all the posts here about dealers denying these claims on stock V's and claiming "abusive driving," I was worried about my own chances. Mark Christopher's response: "We'll fix it." And they did. Same for the nav and various other niggling problems.

I don't know how to rationalize these two dramatically different service experiences.

ewill3rd
12-07-05, 02:28 PM
Well guys, the problem originates from lots of techs needlessly throwing batteries in cars. Back in the 80's and 90's before people understood the nature of parasitic loads it was practically standard practice to replace the battery every time it went dead.

GM has the option to call back any parts we take off a car, if they test the part that you took off and they can't find a problem with it they get upset and then have the option to charge it back(I think).
To stop this problem they invented this test box that we are required to use. We used to have to fill out a two page worksheet! That also included things like Generators too. If you didn't fill out the sheet they could deny the claim. About 4 months ago they told us we don't have to do the worksheets anymore but we still have to have the midtronics code on a battery claim or they will kick it back.

It's a rock and a hard place really.

bobwhat
12-07-05, 03:14 PM
Nabors Cadillac in Costa Mesa replaced my battery when I took it in because the info panel would flash "Battery not Charging." Man they are a great dealer! Sorry to read about your struggle. Nabors did this to service a customer who has purchased 4 Caddies from them in the last 8 years!

Playdrv4me
12-07-05, 03:22 PM
I think the dealers hands are tied as far as getting reimbursed by GM, but I dont think thats the issue here. I think the dealer should have EATEN the cost of the battery on this one. Plain and simple.

Now that being said, I would do that ONE TIME and then if it kept happening after that continue searching for any parasitic load on the system and do no further battery replacements.

powerglide
12-07-05, 03:26 PM
I think the dealers hands are tied as far as getting reimbursed by GM, but I dont think thats the issue here. I think the dealer should have EATEN the cost of the battery on this one. Plain and simple.
Now that being said, I would do that ONE TIME and then if it kept happening after that continue searching for any parasitic load on the system and do no further battery replacements.

Totally agreed!
Who cares about the 50 bucks that GM may or may not reimburse them for.....this guy just bought a freakin new car from you. Do it just to make him happy. Like you said, if it kept happening then sure dont keep replacing it. but that way Barak would have been a much happier camper.

GNSCOTT
12-07-05, 08:02 PM
Or they can just throw a $50 wholesale cost battery in there and wait to see if he has the problem. Seems that the $50 is alot cheaper than having to give him a rental and have one of his techs work on the car. If its not the battery, the dealership now has a known good battery to test on other cars. Your not talking about replacing a piston here.

Sandyfoot-V
12-07-05, 08:41 PM
Perhaps I can relay a similar experience with my Escalade:

One morning I got into the vehicle to go to work and it would not start. Cadillac Roadside Assist towed the car to the dealership from which I had purchased the Escalade. They could not find an electrical problem and replaced the (three month old) battery. Two weeks later, the same thing happened. Again the vehicle was towed to the dealership. Again no electrical problem found. At that point I said ďdo you think it is probable, even possible, that I could have two bad batteries in a row? Surely this is an electrical system problem.Ē Again, only the battery was replaced. Two weeks later, another dead start attempt. Another tow to the dealership. Another two hour round trip to the dealership and another half a days lost business revenue. By this time I was furious and was considering invoking the Lemon Law. This time they discovered a TSB that found that a computer error was slowly draining (each) battery. Computer recalibrated, problem solved.

This may be something to consider. The same dealership may be coming through for me now, and this would surely balance out this previous blemish.

TracerHawk
12-07-05, 09:02 PM
This whole thread is pretty disgusting, I can only imagine the amount of hassle you're going through Barak.

I'm actually surprised this is even a problem being discussed! Its an $80.00 battery on a 50k car that is less than a year old as a 2005, and clearly under warranty. I can only hope this is an isolated incident, I never imagined getting warranty work done could be this much of a hassle. They should throw the battery in on goodwill ALONE, not even mentioning the car is under warranty! I understand how they need to go through certain testing and such to get a "failed" status to replace apparently, but imagine the amount of damage this thread is doing, and on one of the busiest and most knowledgeable Cadillac forums out on the web.

As someone who is seriously considering a 2006 CTS-V and took my lunch hour today to drive a used 2005 CTS-V, threads like this are disheartening. I won't even tell you what the service is like for BMW which I've had for the last 7 years, but it's very very similiar to the Lexus post above. You don't have to jump through hoops just to get simple warranty work done, they trust the customer and provide quality service. GM should too.

If I was the General Manager, I would have a FIT if I saw this much of a hassle going on about a car under warranty, much less a 50k car! I can only hope this is an isolated incident in GM Service. One of the reasons people buy new cars is for the comfort of the warranty in case anything goes wrong, they get it fixed and dont have to worry about maintenance and repair issues (which shouldnt be expected that much to begin with on a new car!). They don't buy a new car to go through fighting tooth and nail with a dealship on replacing an $80.00 battery. They should just replace the damn thing in the interest of "customer service" and goodwill and make things right.

Clearly you have an unhappy customer who has to be at wits end if he is posting this entire story out on the forums. In my opinion the dealership has already failed in letting it get this far, but they still have a chance to salvage the relationship and salvage potential FUTURE relationships with Cadillac, and this dealer specifically. I'd try to exhibit more "lets get this fixed and do whatever it takes to make the customer happy with his car under warranty", rather than the "if I dont get this test result, I cant replace it and have to send you back out to the world with a faulty battery or something wrong in your car". The dealership is paying too much attention to making sure every T is crossed and i is dotted, and has lost sight of the true goal in the process, customer happiness. They can't see the forest through the trees. http://smiley.onegreatguy.net/sad.gif

Hell, if you replace it and he never comes back and the battery works fine, you've solved the problem. If you replace it and he comes back and the issue is still going on, give him back his old battery and now you know what ISN'T the problem. Seems like 80 bucks is a small price to pay for customer loyalty on a warrantied vehicle.

Katshot
12-07-05, 09:40 PM
This is precisely why one of the key points I usually mention in my posts about "what I think GM should do to improve Cadillac" is to eat ALL warranty claims with a smile even if they'll not absolutely valid claims. You must treat the customer as though they matter to you, and you value their business, now and in the future. This is one of the key reasons why businesses like Home Depot are so successful. Back when they first opened up, I had an opportunity to speak with a store manager about their returns policy. I was bringing back something (without a reciept) I had bought days earlier. When I got there, I noticed the HUGE amount of returned items that were in the return area. The cashier quickly returned my money (cash), even though I had no receipt. After I got my money, was entering the main part of the store when I saw the manager. I asked him about his thoughts about the returns being made. This is what he told me:
Yeah, I know, we get a TON of returns here. Hell, last week I even took back a couple tires we don't even sell! But I figure that if I take the items back without hesitation, I get a win-win deal. #1) Chances are, the customer is going to be happy and tell his freinds and family, and they will come here to shop. #2) Chances are if the customer is happy, they'll come right back into the store and give me back the money I just gave them and then some in the form of new purchases, and will continue to do so in the future.

Now you tell me, was this guy a good manager or what?

ewill3rd
12-07-05, 09:41 PM
You guys make a pretty good point that I didn't really want to bring up, but hey it's out there!
I am not trying to be mean here but at any dealership I ever worked in you can bet your bottom dollar that the owner of the dealership would have bought this guy a battery with his own money rather than have him smear his dealership's reputation on the internet in front of all of the world.
Heck, I almost want to send you a check to pay for the battery myself just to see if it would fix the problem!

Once the battery is installed we can't take it back out and put it on the shelf though, although that would be great. Not many folks want to buy a "used" battery these days. ;)

It's not that common for batteries to fail new, but like anything that is manufactured, sometimes it does happen.
I just find it odd that the mentality seems to be "well we can't prove the battery is bad so you can have your car back".
It seems to me that someone would be interested in finding out what's going on here?

I mean are you at least being accused of leaving the dome light on?

GAGS-V
12-08-05, 12:26 AM
Barak; it turns out that this is a pretty amazing post! Looks like a lot of us are ready to boil over due to Cadillac Customer Service (or lack of). I do believe I am going to print this post and send it to our area Cadillac dealer OWNERS so they can see first hand of what goes on in their service bays. Major work is needed on their part. If there was a dealer that was to put a major effort on customer service they would be swamped with new and repeat business.

Since Mark Christopher will not fix your car, I say (even you Lawfive) that all of us should make a copy of this and mail it to the OWNER and vow until they make it right they won't see any of us. Then they can rest assured that we will tell everyone we know not to go there to buy a new car or for service.

By the way, Mark Christopher, we are the CUSTOMER! We do have the power to take our hard earned money and go somewhere else to spend it.

Luna.
12-08-05, 12:45 AM
You guys make a pretty good point that I didn't really want to bring up, but hey it's out there!
I am not trying to be mean here but at any dealership I ever worked in you can bet your bottom dollar that the owner of the dealership would have bought this guy a battery with his own money rather than have him smear his dealership's reputation on the internet in front of all of the world.

COUGH--didn't some of us somewhat say this from minute one? :D

GreenMachine
12-08-05, 02:14 AM
Looks like a lot of us are ready to boil over due to Cadillac Customer Service (or lack of).
I don't think is Cadillac Customer Service you all are mad at. I'm 100% sure if you wrote a letter right to the Cadillac head office that battery would have been replaced or the car run through a gauntlet of tests. Sounds to me like a dealer pride issue because they fancy machine doesn't return a bad battery code. Why wasn't the "customer snapshot" option looked at to get the cars code for low batter voltage/amp etc.

It always makes me upset to read these types of posts about switching to Lexus or another brand of an issue that should have been solved way before it got this far. These are the kind of thorns that seem to hurt companies reputations. For every Cadillac dealer that isn't "good" there is a Lexus, Lincoln, Ford, Chevy, Chyrsler etc. Its all about who wants to sell what cars.

The Cadillac dealer I go to is a great (Braun Cadillac-SAAB, Buffalo, NY on Galleria Drive). I have a few issues cleared up out of warranty on a 98' Deville and they always have curtesy transportation (a couple of Oldsmobile vans that were left over when they dropped the "Cadillac-Olds" and went "Cadillac-SAAB") and wash the car. Doughnut Holes/Dougnuts always available with fresh coffee and if you don't like cofee there is hot chocalate or the sales reps will get you a cold drink/juice. Its all about who owns and runs the dealership and what is done by the employees. Check out brauncars.com for that dealers info :P

On the flip side the Cadillac dealership which is less than 2-5 minutes from my house (Keyser Cadillac) isn't so nice and will fight you tooth and nail on everything. We almost bought a 99' Deville there but when they refused to change the tires from Good Year to a Michelen of nearly the same price we went looking around, ended up at Braun, they gave us the tires we wanted, and made the price what we needed easily on the 98' Deville we own now.

The owners manual of my 98' shows the attached information for this type of problem, not sure if the phone numbers have changed since then or mailing address but I've attached a "cut and cropped" version to this post.

Barak
12-08-05, 03:56 AM
VICTORY!!!!!!!!!!


When I got home this evening after visiting Crown Lexus, seeing the limo firsthand and test driving an IS350, I am now the proud new owner of a new AC Delco battery! The IS350 is a great car, but I assure you it is no V. Long live the CTS-V, truly the only car for me!!!!!!

Did I get anyone with that? You know I could never leave my V brethren. On the window sticker for the CTS-V, it should have as a selling point an invitation to join the greatest forum with the greatest bunch of people you could ever hope to find. I may be gushing, but I really do appreciate everyone's support on this and I want everyone to know that it was you guys that assured me that I was fighting the good fight, and that this was about more than just an $80 battery.

And for the conclusion to this shocking tale please read on.....

I got back from a meeting this morning and had two messages on my voicemail from Dave Taylor. Dave is the service manager at Mark Christopher and just in case anyone forgot, he is the same Dave from this story (http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=49862). So I called him back and he apologized for how I was treated and said that the battery is now changed and that I can come pick up my car. I hadn't heard anything from Kyle Hulings, the GM customer service rep, but I figured he must have sorted everything out. Thanks Kyle!

So I went down to Mark Christopher a short while later and informed the receptionist that I was here to pick up my car. After about 10 minutes my car was brought around and the porter handed me my keys. The porters there really do give the best service in the whole dealership, even if it does take them a little too long to bring the car around. In any case, I check the car for scratches and get in the car and release the brake. It was at this point that I looked in my rearview mirror and noticed Scott glaring at me (or my car) through the window in the service advisor area. I observed him through the mirror for about twenty seconds, as he continued to glare at me in what looked to be a look of disgust. I drove out of the lot still watching his scowl until I pulled out onto the street.

I can only assume from the look on his face that he must be really pissed off over this whole ordeal. I don't wish him any ill will, I only hope this teaches him a lesson in customer service. My guess is that he has done similar things like this in the past to other customers and they just accepted it begrudgingly and decided to never buy another GM vehicle again. Had I did accept this atrocity as GM policy, I probably just would have told myself the same thing, and GM would have never seen my business again. But thanks to a little persistence, some good friends on this forum and Kyle Hulings at GM customer service, the system worked and I did eventually get a new battery, and now I just may consider buying a GM again, but definitely not from Mark Christopher of course. But in any case, I hope that no one ever has to go through this again and I hope Scott will look at the big picture the next time he tries to deny someone a warranty claim. I hope that this will allow him to sleep well at night, as opposed to his false ethics which he insisted lulls him to sleep faster than a lethal dose of Ambien. But seriously, thank you everyone, I truly do feel unbelievably fortunate to be a part of such a great group of people.

GAGS-V
12-08-05, 04:20 AM
Green Machine, read your own post again. When I am talking about alternate transportation at the Lexus dealership it is not being driven around in an old van. (for that you paid how much for your Cadilac?) You dirve yourself off in a "new" (2005) Lexus until yours is ready.
I have not heard of ONE complaint about the Lexus dealers for service in our area, indeed they have such follow up that they would be horrified to see the responses that have been posted here. The more you see of these types of posts and the reponse from Cadillac dealers makes it painfully obvious why GM is losing market share to those that really do "get it". If you look deeper at these posts you will see a number of V owners desperate for good customer service.
We did not buy our cars from "The Cadillac head office" and I am not quite sure where to bring my car for "them" to work on it. Please tell me if "they" have an office in Southern California. You are right however when you state " it's all about who wants to sell cars". The flip side of this is "who is going to buy the cars". You are also right in that this is an issue that should have been solved way befor it got to this point. Exactly, that is why this post did show up. This not the first time Barak has had a problem there (see his oil filter). Mark Christopher invited hi back saying they would treat him like "family". Some family! This is my first GM car in twenty years and although I really enjoy driving the car I hate the way I (and others) in this area have been treated by our local dealers.
Not to ruin your day or post but quite frankly I thought I would NEVER buy a Cadillac because of the type of vehicle you drive (Deville). While the ride in them is great I don't want to DRIVE around in a boat. This may indeed be the problem, Cadillac dealer service does not know how to fix the V. They may be good at fixing boats, yet are not up to par to fix the only real drivers car they have made for decades. So, Green machine, while I am glad that while you love your 98 boat and your NY dealer, there is much discontent with Cadillac and it's dealers here in Southern California (where this post started). Go DRIVE (and buy) a V and then come back to this post. You will LOVE the V to drive, we just want a dealer that wants to work with us and stand behind what they say. We know the dealers arn't perfect (neither are we) we just want some dealer to "step up to the plate".

GreenMachine
12-08-05, 04:55 AM
Green Machine, read your own post again. When I am talking about alternate transportation at the Lexus dealership it is not being driven around in an old van. (for that you paid how much for your Cadilac?) You dirve yourself off in a "new" (2005) Lexus until yours is ready.

You are right however when you state " it's all about who wants to sell cars". The flip side of this is "who is going to buy the cars". You are also right in that this is an issue that should have been solved way befor it got to this point.

Not to ruin your day or post but quite frankly I thought I would NEVER buy a Cadillac because of the type of vehicle you drive (Deville). While the ride in them is great I don't want to DRIVE around in a boat. This may indeed be the problem, Cadillac dealer service does not know how to fix the V. They may be good at fixing boats, yet are not up to par to fix the only real drivers car they have made for decades. So, Green machine, while I am glad that while you love your 98 boat and your NY dealer, there is much discontent with Cadillac and it's dealers here in Southern California (where this post started). Go DRIVE (and buy) a V and then come back to this post. You will LOVE the V to drive, we just want a dealer that wants to work with us and stand behind what they say. We know the dealers arn't perfect (neither are we) we just want some dealer to "step up to the plate".
The Van is for out of warranty service cars like mine, they plan on haveing an Esclade from what I hear in the future. If its for warranty you get a car of your own until your service is done. The salesman who sold us our car offered us to use his car if we didn't want to take the Van or even test drive a nice looking 2001 Deville DTS for a few hours, but it was in the detail shop.

Regarding the statment I made about "who wants to sell cars" I mean its up to the dealer what cars they want to sell. If a guy who is a total @$$ decides to sell cadillacs, if he has the bank to do it he can, or chevy etc.

This dealership knows its stuff and is known to get the "upset" Cadillac owners from other dealerships back in and willing to buy a new or another Cadillac.

When we were there few weeks back a V was in the body shop, it hurts to see them there, and was in the process of getting a transmission fixed/rebuilt, I guess it was in an accident in such a way that it messed its tranny up and the rear end was being redon. This is a huge dealership and I've seen a Corvette there in the past so someone trusts them with it. They have "teams" of techicians for the cars. Red, Green, Blue teams. Each has their "clients" and it seemed like it was arranged based on type of car.

I wish I had the bucks for a V. Thats the car I really want, or one of the future V's. Takeing one of them down a quiet stretch of the Autobahn or the wide open free ways of the western states is long been a fantasy of mine, heck I've bought video games so I can race them alongside exotics. What really gets me going about is that beautiful engine in Cadillac trim that has been changed from a best in a Chevy to a tamed Lion who when provoked will let out an awesome roar....ok you guys know since you own it.

The 98' Deville is the family car right now (good fit for it family sedan rather an SUV) I'm looking into a used Eldorado or a CTS for myself once I get some cash saved (I'm 18 in January). The problem I find is all the regular CTS have automatics and I want a standard if I get one but that seems wishful right now.

I am getting mad just typeing this reading the frustration in the posts of the southern californian V owners. Its nuts that you are all haveing this problem with a car you payed a pretty penny for and has been raved about in magazine reviews for competeing with cars with much higher pricetags.

At least this battery dispute is solved and I can't believe what happened with that oil filter (just read that post). A great car to drive in cali, but with poor support. I guess I'll just give you my blessings and prayers for help lol maybe devine intervention is needed.

I hope you guys find a dealer who will be willing to get serious about serviceing the V.

ewill3rd
12-08-05, 07:47 AM
Barak, what kind of story is listed on the repair order?
I am curious as to whether they actually found something or if they just put a battery in to silence this whole mess.

I am really glad to hear that they took care of you, now I just hope that it fixed your problem the way it should be.
Let us know how it starts today, and tomorrow.

a64pilot
12-08-05, 08:22 AM
The same dealership may be coming through for me now, and this would surely balance out this previous blemish.

Yeah, if they do I would say you owe them big

Katshot
12-08-05, 09:18 AM
Green Machine, read your own post again. When I am talking about alternate transportation at the Lexus dealership it is not being driven around in an old van. (for that you paid how much for your Cadilac?) You dirve yourself off in a "new" (2005) Lexus until yours is ready.
I have not heard of ONE complaint about the Lexus dealers for service in our area, indeed they have such follow up that they would be horrified to see the responses that have been posted here. The more you see of these types of posts and the reponse from Cadillac dealers makes it painfully obvious why GM is losing market share to those that really do "get it". If you look deeper at these posts you will see a number of V owners desperate for good customer service.
We did not buy our cars from "The Cadillac head office" and I am not quite sure where to bring my car for "them" to work on it. Please tell me if "they" have an office in Southern California. You are right however when you state " it's all about who wants to sell cars". The flip side of this is "who is going to buy the cars". You are also right in that this is an issue that should have been solved way befor it got to this point. Exactly, that is why this post did show up. This not the first time Barak has had a problem there (see his oil filter). Mark Christopher invited hi back saying they would treat him like "family". Some family! This is my first GM car in twenty years and although I really enjoy driving the car I hate the way I (and others) in this area have been treated by our local dealers.
Not to ruin your day or post but quite frankly I thought I would NEVER buy a Cadillac because of the type of vehicle you drive (Deville). While the ride in them is great I don't want to DRIVE around in a boat. This may indeed be the problem, Cadillac dealer service does not know how to fix the V. They may be good at fixing boats, yet are not up to par to fix the only real drivers car they have made for decades. So, Green machine, while I am glad that while you love your 98 boat and your NY dealer, there is much discontent with Cadillac and it's dealers here in Southern California (where this post started). Go DRIVE (and buy) a V and then come back to this post. You will LOVE the V to drive, we just want a dealer that wants to work with us and stand behind what they say. We know the dealers arn't perfect (neither are we) we just want some dealer to "step up to the plate".

You bring up a good point. And this is the main reason I left GM a few years ago, and am currently driving a Jeep and Lincoln (yeah, I still have the FTS but I hardly ever drive it anymore). The Last GM vehicle we had a was a '01 GMC Denali. I waited for the '01 because freinds of mine within GM (actually one was the assistant program manager for the Escalade) told me the new platform was a vast improvement over the 2000. We were getting out of a lease on a Ford Expedition, a truck both me and my wife REALLY liked. We wanted another full-size SUV but wanted a little more luxury. We drove virtually every full-size SUV out there and upon driving the Denali, we knew our quest was at an end. It had everything we wanted in a new vehicle. Great looks, power, great comfort, and a lot of toys. We loved it for all of almost the first year, then the love fest was over. The Denali ended up in the shop a few times for various things but the dealer always seemed more interested in keeping his warranty claims down, rather than service his customers. After finally managing to get the truck fixed (that's a story in itself, believe me), we found ourselves a new dealer for service. Our first visit was great but after the repair turned out to be temporary at best, we started having the same issues as before. In the end, we DID get most of the things fixed (another story by itself too) but shortly thereafter dumped the Denali at our freindly neighborhood Lincoln dealer and bought an '03 Aviator. It's really a shame because I think the Denali was a very nice vehicle "on paper". It's just that GM "could not" or "would not" get the hang of servicing a "LUXURY" customer. Face it, the Denali was the first actual "luxury" vehicle for GMC and it wasn't cheap. The sticker was something like $50K as I recall (we paid WAY less than sticker for a vehicle that was brand new on the market), and that's a lot of money in most people's mind (especially 5 years ago). I think GMC was totally unprepared for dealing with a luxury vehicle customer. They ARE different from the average GMC customer who until that point was most likely either a commercial customer or someone just looking for a work-horse of a vehicle. Now they had to deal with customers complaining about noises, vibrations, and other non-basic-function types of things. I think that was the same sort of thing that Cadillac dealerships are having to come to terms with when it comes to servicing the new breed of Cadillac customers. They used to be a bunch of old grey-hairs that had minimal needs and barely noticed when things malfunctioned. Now the dealerships need to deal with not only a younger, more observant group, but now they are faced with enthusiasts too! People that take issue about the car not pulling quite right on acceleration, or not handling quite right in turns. Wheel-hop on hard starts, noise, harshness and vibrations at all kinds of speeds. These are all things that Cadillac has to be ready for from their NEW customers. The ones that they claim to want to sell to. Well guess what GM, these new customers are A LOT more in tune with their cars than past customers, and they expect more from them and YOU when it comes to customer service.

Luna.
12-08-05, 01:17 PM
I am really glad to hear that they took care of you, now I just hope that it fixed your problem the way it should be.
Let us know how it starts today, and tomorrow.

Agree.

And be sure to NOT leave your lights on for 5ish minutes, as clearly your battery will be "drained" in such time period. :D

b4z
12-08-05, 01:27 PM
could this be a ignition switch issue?
or maybe crankshaft sensor?

I have bought 4 GM vehicles in 6 years and 2 of them had bad batteries.
And my Intrigue had a bad ignition, bad battery and a bad crankshaft position sensor.
Sometimes the Intrigue just wouldn't start, other times it would.

Randy_W
12-08-05, 01:47 PM
It's not GM service, it's certain dealers. Go on any forum you want and you will find service nightmares. I bought my '96 Seville at Good News Cadillac/ Olds/GMC. They also sell Honda, Mercedes, Nissan, Hyundai, Mazda and Toyota. They started as a Honda dealer and bought several other dealerships. Their service department sucked, pure and simple. They were arrogant, none caring and wouldn't even give you a ride to work unless you waited for their van to run it's normal route. For those of us with Road Side Assistance, tough shit, they never had a car for us. They were equal oppertunity, they treated all their customers the same, like shit! The Pohanka Auto Group bought them out about the time Pontiac and GMC were merged. When they found out they were going to lose GMC to Price Pontiac/ Buick, and Cadillac/Olds to Courtesy, they were pissed!! The reason they lost the high profit trucks, poor service, so many claims went to GM, that they basically pulled their franchise. My dealings with both Price and Courtesy have been nothing but positive. They still sell the other brands, and I understand are doing better with service problems under the new ownership. Meanwhile GM customers here are treated very well by two very good dealers.:)

powerglide
12-08-05, 01:48 PM
VICTORY!!!!!!!!!!



Congrats to the end of a stressful ordeal brought on by a silly problem exacerbated by a mental midget service rep!

http://gloverlab.biochem.ualberta.ca/~dave/bmn/Source%20Files/woohoo.gif

Barak
12-08-05, 02:13 PM
could this be a ignition switch issue?
or maybe crankshaft sensor?

I have bought 4 GM vehicles in 6 years and 2 of them had bad batteries.
And my Intrigue had a bad ignition, bad battery and a bad crankshaft position sensor.
Sometimes the Intrigue just wouldn't start, other times it would.

If it was an ignition switch issue then the starter solenoid wouldn't click when the key was turned. If it was an intermittent CKP sensor, then I wouldn't be getting an RPM signal and the vehicle would also be stalling on me.



Agree.

And be sure to NOT leave your lights on for 5ish minutes, as clearly your battery will be "drained" in such time period.

I tried that last night in fact. On the info screen I checked the Battery Voltage box to see what the voltage would drop to with the radio on, lights on and the windows being repeatedly opened and closed. The voltage dropped from 12.6 to 12.4 and the engine started right up after about 10 minutes of this.

Luna.
12-08-05, 02:31 PM
I tried that last night in fact. On the info screen I checked the Battery Voltage box to see what the voltage would drop to with the radio on, lights on and the windows being repeatedly opened and closed. The voltage dropped from 12.6 to 12.4 and the engine started right up after about 10 minutes of this.

LOL--exactly.

The tech is San Diego who tried to convince me that the battery could be drained to the point where the car wouldn't start after keeping the key & such in the 'on' position for 5-10 minutes still baffles me to this day. Give me a break...

It's a shame that some of the techs/managers seem to believe that most, if not all, of their customers will mindlessly believe all of their nonsense... :tisk:

Katshot
12-08-05, 02:46 PM
Hey, they're used to dealing with old folks that trust whatever they say. there's gonna be a learning curve here for sure.

Barak
12-08-05, 09:08 PM
Barak, what kind of story is listed on the repair order?
I am curious as to whether they actually found something or if they just put a battery in to silence this whole mess.

I am really glad to hear that they took care of you, now I just hope that it fixed your problem the way it should be.
Let us know how it starts today, and tomorrow.

According to the repair order it says "battery failed test - code 5X3JE-S5" "Diagnosed and replaced battery"

azombie
12-08-05, 09:25 PM
this is such typical GM thinking...eat the cost of a battery or continue the legacy of shitty PR...well, I guess they figured the PR can't get much worse so they take the hit there...

same minds that sent me a GARUANTEED $1,000 for a trade in on my new GM vehicle (2004 CTS-V) to upgrade to a Chevy Monte SS....yeah I think I'll keep the caddy swifty.

does anybody at GM have a brain that works or is there just one and they all pass it around...

I mean I can understand this being an issue if this was the battery on a chevy caviliar and there were millions of them. This is a car with an EXTREMELY LOW build count and is supposed to be the FLAGSHIP of GM's new cars...each dealer only sells a FEW of them...

ewill3rd
12-08-05, 09:26 PM
Thanks, just wondering.

Katshot
12-08-05, 10:58 PM
this is such typical GM thinking...eat the cost of a battery or continue the legacy of shitty PR...well, I guess they figured the PR can't get much worse so they take the hit there...
same minds that sent me a GARUANTEED $1,000 for a trade in on my new GM vehicle (2004 CTS-V) to upgrade to a Chevy Monte SS....yeah I think I'll keep the caddy swifty.
does anybody at GM have a brain that works or is there just one and they all pass it around...
I mean I can understand this being an issue if this was the battery on a chevy caviliar and there were millions of them. This is a car with an EXTREMELY LOW build count and is supposed to be the FLAGSHIP of GM's new cars...each dealer only sells a FEW of them...

Not trying to knit-pic but since when is the CTS-V the "FLAGSHIP of GM's new cars..."????

lawfive
12-09-05, 01:45 PM
Not trying to knit-pic but since when is the CTS-V the "FLAGSHIP of GM's new cars..."????

Hooo... Wrong forum to frame this particular query...

Dooman
12-09-05, 03:29 PM
Not trying to knit-pic but since when is the CTS-V the "FLAGSHIP of GM's new cars..."????

I tend to agree somewhat with this one. I think GM has spent most of their time and money the last few years trying to get out the new trucks/suvs. I think the V could have benefitted from some of that money and time to stay at the top of the heap.

CaddyGeek
12-09-05, 08:38 PM
Hooo... Wrong forum to frame this particular query...

LOL!

Katshot
12-09-05, 09:38 PM
My point was that Cadillac has for many years declared the Seville/STS their "flagship" model. To even assume that the CTS, Cadillac's entry-level car could ever be considered a "flagship" model is ridiculous. It was the first (and in my opinion still the best) 'V' model Caddy but that's as far as it goes IMO.

azombie
12-09-05, 10:17 PM
i guess i should have said their flagship for this 'class' of car. I mean they used it in the matrix for pete's sake

ccharlie
12-09-05, 10:23 PM
Wow! Quite an epic. I've had a new differential and a repaired radiator on my (USED) CTS-V, all done by Ed Morse Cadillac in Tampa, no questions asked, and no charge. Also an interesting experience with the "spare" tire well, (or lack thereof).
charlie

TracerHawk
12-09-05, 10:53 PM
Barak, just wanted to say..

CONGRATULATIONS! http://smiley.onegreatguy.net/cheers.gif

This is what should have happened from the very start, but hey, at least it's a happy ending.

The only piece of your story that was disappointing was the rearview mirror part where you said he was scowling for 20 seconds at your/your car as you drove off, with a look of disgust. An apology and lighthearted manner would have been nice to see from someone who truly saw the light of day and helped fix a wrong and make it right. It doesnt sound to me at all like he learned a lesson in this in providing excellent customer service. It sounds like the work was just done disgruntingly to just "fix it and move on" and that you were more of a hassle, than an opportunity to truly make a customer happy.

It would have been nice to have seen a lesson learned and have an expectation of improvement in customer service for future customers, but his reaction as you drove off makes me think there was no "enlightening" that was done. I can only hope I'm wrong.

ace996
12-10-05, 12:55 AM
One could certainly call the CTS-V Cadillac's "flagship" model, as it has launched a revolutionary change in the corporate marketing/image/performance/target-market for a brand that was seen, not too long ago, as a car for pimps and grey-hairs.

**2005 Speed World Challenge Champion and Manufacturer's Title**. Read that again...I don't recall the Seville ever receiving attention from GMPD or logging laps at legendary tracks. If it wasn't for the base CTS, Cadillac would probably have joined Oldsmobile in the auto-retirement graveyard. Perhaps the Escalade could have delayed that somewhat, but the BlingCrew has a short attention span and that will only last for so long.

The V burst into the room without invitation, and has smartly cleaned many performance sedan's clocks with power and agility. It opened the eyes of younger performance-oriented drivers and has taken business from the competitors.

Now the STS-V will be the "flagship", as the automatic tranny will be accepted better by the "real" target market of Cadillac. As stated prior, Caddy was/is not prepared to handle the new customers it has attracted, the performance drivers, and the service experience has been mostly painful.

The "V-Series" cars deserve a new marquee, a newly designed distribution/service organization trained to deal with the new customers they've attracted. It'll never happen, but then again I can't understand how my LS6 goes to the same service department as a Seville.

-ace

GreenMachine
12-10-05, 03:57 AM
The "V-Series" cars deserve a new marquee, a newly designed distribution/service organization trained to deal with the new customers they've attracted. It'll never happen, but then again I can't understand how my LS6 goes to the same service department as a Seville.

-ace
The Northstar is on par with the LS6 when it comes to the technical aspect. Both are world renowned. One for being a world leader in FWD performance. One known as the "obtainable" super car engine. The new Super Charged Northstars are being built and put together along side their LS6 and LS7 partners. Hand checked and crafted to make sure they run to the right specs. The V-Series isn't mass production, its an elite group of Cadillac owners who want the amenities of CTS, STS, XLR with a big detriot power.

I feel the CTS-V is the Cadillac for the guy who wants to drive, light up the tires, use 3 pedals to drive, and lets not forget have the heritage of the LS6 under the hood. This is for the crowd that enjoys knowing they pay far less for a car that competes with high pricetag imports.

The 70,000 dollar STS-V and 90,000-100,000 XLR-V are remarkable in that the have Automatics and can do 0-60 in 5 seconds. They have "the Cadillac" engine. These cars are for the big pay check customers who really don't want the "hassle" of haveing to use stick shift. (I put hassle in quotes because I like stick).

A certified GM dealer is suppose to be able to service any GM vechicle. Thats what their techs are sent to training for. Thats what the manuals, TSBs are for. Its possible that some of these cadillac dealerships are cutting cost more than they should and not bringing in the Techs that they should and I can only hope that they shape up or GM will pull their "flag ship" division from them. Charecter is described as what someone does when no one is looking, if GM isn't looking some better point their watchful eyes at these dealers that we keep hearing about.

I bet if you brought your cadillac to a Chevy dealer or a buick dealer you would treated like someone who is above their "level" and waited on hand and foot. Might not be a bad idea to try it.

Katshot
12-10-05, 08:33 AM
Interesting points but think about what you said.
1. If the supercharged Northstar engines are built side by side with the LS6's and LS7's, why would the Northstar be considered a "Cadillac" engine?
2. If you suggest that all "certified" GM dealers should have equally trained technicians, they should ALL be on even ground with respect to being able to "repair" the car. But then you point out the apparent difference in service you'd expect at the lower cache dealer. Why wouldn't the dealership that's SUPPOSED to service your high-end car be prepared to show you that increased level of service?
Don't get me wrong, I agree with much of what you said, I just thought I'd ask a couple questions of you.

Lindsay Cadillac
12-10-05, 09:58 AM
FYI - Training for GM dealers is not the same across all car lines... Chevy technicians don't train on the Northstar engine, as our technicians don't train on the Duramax diesel engine... The only exception to that would be if it's a multiple line dealer...

Katshot
12-10-05, 10:12 AM
Actually, as I recall, the GM Training classes were coded by vehicle line so Chevy dealer can't send a tech to a class that's intended for Cadillac. We were classified as a Cadillac dealership so I could only sign myself and my techs up for Cadillac classes. Of course that was back when all training was done at the GM Training Centers. Today, most training is done remotely in the dealerships, and only certain classes are done at regional training centers. Gee, ya think THAT change has anything to do with the drop in customer service at the dealerships? Things that make you go hmm. :hmm:

Luna.
12-10-05, 12:23 PM
Actually, as I recall, the GM Training classes were coded by vehicle line so Chevy dealer can't send a tech to a class that's intended for Cadillac. We were classified as a Cadillac dealership so I could only sign myself and my techs up for Cadillac classes. Of course that was back when all training was done at the GM Training Centers. Today, most training is done remotely in the dealerships, and only certain classes are done at regional training centers. Gee, ya think THAT change has anything to do with the drop in customer service at the dealerships? Things that make you go hmm. :hmm:

Interesting comments...

Whatever it is, GM needs to address it. "Good" customer service shouldn't be this hard for this many people...

Katshot
12-10-05, 03:43 PM
I assume GM did it for cost-cutting reasons but years ago, ALL training was done at the training centers under the watchful eyes of some of the most knowledgable instructors you'd ever want to know. I remember back then it was common for dealer techs to call the training centers to get "expert" advice from the instructors. These were guys that usually had years of hands-on experience and were intimate with the systems they taught classes on. Now, they have the techs take an interactive type of class at their own dealerships (at least that's the way it was a couple years ago when I was still in the business). I just doubt the guys are getting as good training as they used to get. Of course now the guys can take the classes whenever they need to rather than have to wait until the training centers offered them, so that's a big plus I guess.

ewill3rd
12-10-05, 05:04 PM
GM training is one of the most complicated topics to address that there can be.
Let's just say that not enough guys do it, and from my experience with the old methods and the "new" methods, the new way is not as good as the old.
You have to be more self motivated these days. GM presses dealers to get their techs up to a certain level. What we call STS or Service Training Standards is what GM goes by. They want us all to be 100% but a lot of dealers are only up to 80 or 90%. I know our store is way up there in this region. Our shop foreman works to keep us at 100% and my personal training records really help us out on that one ;)
I am 100% in 9 categories and GM "Master Certified" in 6 of them.
Ironically that includes the Duramax Diesel, for which GM has eliminated my training credit because I now work at a Cadillac dealership.

I like some of the "new" training and that is probably all I should say.

fast66
12-10-05, 06:53 PM
Caddy Roadside would bring batteries with them and replace it on the spot.

GreenMachine
12-11-05, 11:01 AM
Interesting points but think about what you said.
1. If the supercharged Northstar engines are built side by side with the LS6's and LS7's, why would the Northstar be considered a "Cadillac" engine?
2. If you suggest that all "certified" GM dealers should have equally trained technicians, they should ALL be on even ground with respect to being able to "repair" the car. But then you point out the apparent difference in service you'd expect at the lower cache dealer. Why wouldn't the dealership that's SUPPOSED to service your high-end car be prepared to show you that increased level of service?
Don't get me wrong, I agree with much of what you said, I just thought I'd ask a couple questions of you.
Going to respond with numbers just to ease in organization:
1. I was simply stating that just like the LS1 and LS6 are an engine family so is the Northstar system. There is no doubt that those engines originated with Chevy. Chevy saves the LS7 for the Corvette just as Cadillac saves the SC Northstars for their "big price" models. The only reason the CTS-V shared the LS6 with the Corvette was because the Corvette was about to get its new LS2 and LS7 and Cadillac needed that jumpstart sooner than later. Now for 2006 both the CTS-V and GTO share the 400HP LS2 while the Z06 stands alone with its LS7.

The Northstar engines designated LD8 and L37 are the FWD versions, the LH2 is the RWD version and LC3 is the Supercharged version.

That may all sound confusing but this is a great site to look at what divisions of GM use what transmissions and engines: http://media.gm.com/us/powertrain/en/product_services/r_cars/car%20eng%20trans.html

Both of these engines have their respective departments at which they are "peaked and tweaked" but still they are "brothers" in that both are heavily scrutinized by the guys who have years of expertise with racing engines and such. Look what all the GM racing knowledge did for Cadillac in SCCA. There going to share knowledge.

2. The "lower-end" dealer, Chevy, is used to servicing the LS6 so I assumed they would know its ins and outs more than a dealer who is certified but services them rarely. Knowledge comes from hands on experience where as certification comes from training.

Referring to the standard that I thought all GM dealers could service any car, some with more expertise than others from hands-on, was based on the commercials with the "Mr. Goodwrench" slogans. The commercial made it seem you could take any GM vehicle to any GM dealer and receive the same expertise. In the background on most of the commercials you would have all breeds of cars up on the racks. With that said I knew that there are some who may be trained to do XYZ engine but usually do ABC and have more knowledge on one then they other from experience. I don't know maybe GM Goodwrench service centers arenít at dealers at all are like Munro Mufflers and just do service but I haven't seen any stand alone service centers.

To ewill3rd:
Interesting how thatís done. It would certainly make dealerships get their techs trained if that information was required by GM to be posted at the service counter. Certainly seeing that "Joe Smoe Cadillac" is certified to 80% and then down the road "Joe Mutteratz Cadillac" is 100% would certainly start competition in service and more importantly force better techs into the dealerships. Its seems today a lot of what is done is hook a computer up and see what it tells you rather than finding real problems. Computers go so far but a good watchful eye and good ear can diagnose too. Computers were meant to assist in finding problems, not be the end all solution.

I have a tendency to cram a lot into single posts, touch typing is one of those things that just lets ideas flow out of ones head :P

ewill3rd
12-11-05, 12:31 PM
A greater percentage of today's training is not centered on one carline.
It's all merged into categories like "brakes" or "engines".
Engine classes used to be setup for ONE engine, today in a typical engine class we'll cover 4 or 5 engine service procedures.
Brake systems are the same way. I mean "base brakes" are pretty much the same but ABS system can vary from carline to carline. You have Bosch systems, Kelsey Hayes Systems, Teves sytems, and some Delco systems.
While nearly identical in function they rarely share many components and some are radically different in operation than others. Instead of teaching us each system (like they used to) they give us an overview of ABS operation and tell us the differences between the systems. It's easy for some guys but hard for others.
The same goes for lots of systems on the cars, like "body control systems".
They tell you about some specific subsystems on a given model car but the overall tone of the course is body control systems in general. Sometimes you get a big chart that shows the differences between what carline has what body control features but it's really kind of a jumble.

What it boils down to is they try to expose us to theory rather than specific component operation and hope that we have the brains to "fill in the blanks" as it were. That works for some guys, like me, but for some... well I am sure if you guys look to your left and your right when you are at work you can find the guys who get paid to not know how to do things too.

The key to the whole thing is what happens inside the dealership. Maybe tech A is good with brakes and engine work but not so good with airbags or drivability. The key is having someone in place inside the dealership that knows who to give the work to. This guy is called a "dispatcher". Some places have electronic dispatching so the computer decides. (I am not sure how it decides, but it does)
If the dispatcher gets the right jobs to the right techs you are usually in good shape. You run into problems when the needed tech is covered up, then it goes to the next guy and so on.
Technically everyone should be fully trained and capable of handling any job that comes their way. I CAN do almost any job on the car because of my training and my experience, but there are jobs you just don't want me doing on your car because I don't do them regularly. It would take me longer and I might overlook some stuff because I am used to doing other things.

I don't know how many of you know how flat rate works, but it sucks basically and if I am losing time doing transmission work, rather than the electrical work I am used to, I'll get a smaller check at the end of the week.

Sorry for the length of my posts too. It's hard to stop once I get going.

I hope I can shed a glimpse "inside" the dealership so it's easier for you guys out there in the retail world to understand what we go through sometimes.
I can't speak for others, but I try really hard to do my best, sometimes circumstances make things turn out badly and then all we can do is ask for your understanding.

This thread has really hit some tangents. It might be worth starting another couple of threads to handle them.
It seems like the topic that started this thread has been pretty well covered....?

GreenMachine
12-11-05, 09:42 PM
It seems like the topic that started this thread has been pretty well covered....?
Its safe to say this has certainly been hijacked. :P

urbanski
12-12-05, 08:55 AM
OP just needs to ask if they want it locked

Barak
12-12-05, 03:13 PM
Don't lock it! The world must know just how much Mark Christopher Cadillac really blows!:histeric:

lawfive
12-12-05, 03:39 PM
Don't lock it! The world must know just how much Mark Christopher Cadillac really blows!:histeric:

Eeek - evertime it's posted to (including this time), that title gets elevated. At least, buried in there somewhere is my one little post on how it doesn't suck for me...

Randy_W
12-12-05, 05:41 PM
Eeek - evertime it's posted to (including this time), that title gets elevated. At least, buried in there somewhere is my one little post on how it doesn't suck for me...

Nobody wants to hear good news, you can't flame for that!:rolleyes:

Dooman
12-13-05, 02:20 PM
Don't lock it! The world must know just how much Mark Christopher Cadillac really blows!:histeric:
Afternoon bump..

cadavev
01-16-07, 02:50 PM
Mark christopher sucks they are rip off artists on sales and service. i would not buy a rubber dingy there as they are jerks. When i went to buy a car i looked at a 99 deville it was an awsome ride i had the money in cash and the balance with a credit card check the car was 13,500 out the door i had 12 in cash and was writing a cehc for the diff well they did not want all my cash they wanted me to finace some of it they would not take the check either went to palm springs bought my sts and i pissed on the car they wanted to sell me l8tr on that night.

Jon
01-16-07, 05:07 PM
Since this thread got brought back...

Took my V to the dealer a month ago with a battery problem. If I turned off the car and turned off the lights, but ran the radio for half an hour, the car wouldn't start. Told my dealer to check the battery for me. No questions asked, gave me a new one.

If there's anyone in the Toronto area, Highland up in Aurora is absolutely amazing.

I just got my 4 rims back from them. Sandblasted and powdercoated under warranty, along with 3 new centercaps.

I honestly could not be more happy with their service department.

GreenMachine
01-16-07, 05:20 PM
Since this thread got brought back...

Took my V to the dealer a month ago with a battery problem. If I turned off the car and turned off the lights, but ran the radio for half an hour, the car wouldn't start. Told my dealer to check the battery for me. No questions asked, gave me a new one.

If there's anyone in the Toronto area, Highland up in Aurora is absolutely amazing.

I just got my 4 rims back from them. Sandblasted and powdercoated under warranty, along with 3 new centercaps.

I honestly could not be more happy with their service department.

Some dealers understand the little things the do now will sell them big things later :P

lawfive
01-16-07, 08:10 PM
Since we're bumping this thread, here's an update:


Mark Christopher service continues to ROCK!!