: Does anyone here actually like Cadillac?



davesdeville
12-06-05, 05:10 AM
Well, do you?

'The STS-V sucks'
'The northstar is a piece of crap'
'OMG this Hyundai is AWESOME'
'GM can't make a decent car'
'OMG this Honda is AWESOME'
'GM is gonna die and Toyota is gonna pick over the carcass'

That's what I'm hearing from you all.

Do any of you actually give a shit about Cadillacs? When I showed up in 03, people here did. What the hell happened?

danbuc
12-06-05, 05:15 AM
You didn't here any of that shit from me, I'll tell you that much. Whoever said the STS-V sucks should be banned. They just started production and people here are already bad mouthing it...WTF. Show me this thread where it is mentioned so I can spout hostile remarks at this person! I demand justice.

Jesda
12-06-05, 06:27 AM
Evaluating GM as a foolishly run business entity is different from evaluating GM's quality and product offerings.

Night Wolf
12-06-05, 07:10 AM
Dave, you are right... all this anti-Cadillac and anti-GM is really starting to take a toll... we used to be able to talk openly about it, now... just try to mention a GM product that is good....

the GM bashing really needs to stop, if you don't like GM and like Hyundai/Honda/Toyota whatever more, then simply leave... leave this site and leave us alone and go join a place that shares those opinions.

Randy_W
12-06-05, 07:54 AM
Night Wolf, I've been saying that for a long time. It's one thing to have true fans and owners talk about the good and bad points, but it sucks to have a bunch of trolls as members, that only hang around to use every chance to bad mouth GM and Cadillac. We could all rattle off their user names like a who's who of pains in the ass. Some are very young while others should know better.
As a side note, there was one guy on here that used every chance to bash Caddy, while singing the praises of BMW at every turn. I accidentally found him on a BMW forum while looking for info, one day. I started giving him a dose of his own crap by posting threads about recalls and repair costs about his BMW model. In other words I was Troll on his forum. We soon came to an agreement, I never go to his forum and he never comes here anymore.:thumbsup:

Katshot
12-06-05, 08:16 AM
I understand what you're saying but there has to be a balance I think. Having a site where there's only pro-GM or pro-Cadillac posts is not only unrealistic, it's boring.
This place was not setup as a Cadillac pep-squad, it was setup as a place for people with a common interest in Cadillac to share ideas and information. Unfortunately, a large part of that information is going to be service-related stuff that is needed by people having problems with their cars. It's also proven to be useful to air customer concerns on forums such as this because OEMs are actually monitoring these sites nowadays. So whether you like hearing it or not, members griping about the product and services provided by the OEM can actually bring about real change. If the OEM isn't constantly bombarded by comments and concerns about product issues, they will not have any incentive to ever fix anything. The squeaky wheel does in fact get the grease.
As for the thread(s) about the new STS-V, I for one have been trying to keep pointing out the good stuff about the car (I know it's hard to believe but it's true). Unfortunately it IS rather easy for some people to take a rather negative view of a car based solely on a single (or couple) detail(s). In the case of the STS-V, I think the only apparent drawback to the car is the engine's inability to provide the necessary grunt to compete head to head with the supposed competition. Now I HAVE heard there's another new article out from another publication that is less glowing than the Autoweek article I mentioned in the thread in question. When I read it, I'll comment on it.
I hope this place doesn't adopt an attitude of "see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil" with respect to Cadillacs, because if it does, the true value of the place will be lost IMO.

ewill3rd
12-06-05, 08:39 AM
Well being new here and all...

I hear stuff about GM and Cadi bashing all day every day.
It seems so sad to me that people don't understand the nature of the automotive business. People base their opinions about an entire car company based on a few problems that they have with one car. As a technician I can tell you that no car is perfect and yes some systems are prone to failure. Carmakers do the best they can to make sure that any production problems are addressed and that their customers are satisfied.
There are so many of these "independent one-car studies" that there is no way you can try to defend carmakers in each case. Being behind the wrenches would give you the impression that ANY car out there is junk. Some people seem to think that Euro carmaker chains don't have any technicians, but they sure do, those guys live pretty good too.

My personal opinion is that GM does have some problems overall, but not really with the product. The REAL problem is that most people's expectation of what a car is has changed so much over the years that I don't believe any automaker can meet it.

I think people like to base an opinion on weak data and run with it, that's what I see going on here. I don't have an issue with dissenting opinions, just gross generalization. The really sad part is that GM outsources almost all it's parts. They get bids from manufacturers to assemble modules or other components, then the assembly plants put it all together. Then because of a manufacturing issue from one subcontractor people run around condeming the whole corporation. Seems pretty silly.

That's like saying that Wal Mart sucks because you bought a bad extention cord there once.

I also hear a lot of shouting about "how much" people paid for their cars, like that makes a difference in the quality. What you are really paying for is features. The components in many cases are still the same, but the packaging is different. It's become a game of gadgets, you want more, you pay more. That doesn't mean that they are impervious to failure, quite the opposite, it just means there are MORE OF THEM. That compounds the problem actually. Where is the logic in assuming that Chevrolet doesn't care about their products so they push junk out the door, and Cadillac does care so they try harder? It's all the same really. The problem is that the contractors take the GM engineers specifications, builds them at the bottom end, cuts corners to save money, and then ships the parts to GM to install on their cars so that GM can take the blame. The process is the problem and the blame for that does lie on the manufacturer.

At least that's my personal opinion on the whole subject, take it or leave it.

As for members coming here to bash Cadillacs and GM cars, who cares?
What kind of retard is going to spend money on a car and then come here to confess to the world how stupid they think they are? I mean THEY bought the car and THEY are the ones complaining about it. An intelligent person would sell the car, buy what they want and go to that forum and talk about how much they love their non-GM car. Wouldn't they?

EcSTSatic
12-06-05, 09:03 AM
As for members coming here to bash Cadillacs and GM cars, who cares?
What kind of retard is going to spend money on a car and then come here to confess to the world how stupid they think they are? I mean THEY bought the car and THEY are the ones complaining about it. An intelligent person would sell the car, buy what they want and go to that forum and talk about how much they love their non-GM car. Wouldn't they?

:yeah: That's the right attitude. If people here would just ignore the inflammatory comments or pin them down to a specific problem we could benefit from, the anxiety level would drop. In other words, don't stoop to the level of the one slamming Caddy's, rise above it.

Boombotz
12-06-05, 09:09 AM
I LOVE MY CADILLAC!!! I have nothing but good things to say about it. I have had some small problems, but nothing that couldn't be repaired. I find my customer service from my dealership is fantastic. For those people who don't like Cadillac or GM I think it is OK to voice an opinion, but to ruin threads or continue bashing is uncalled for.

Stoneage_Caddy
12-06-05, 09:18 AM
while my cadillac has spent the beatter part of 4 days kicking my lilly ass ...i still like it , and im still "the cadillac man" to everyone that knows me ....

but i will continue to curse at the GM Dept of Sharp Objects who worked overtime on the 94 deville .....I will also curse at GM over not giving me one inch more clearace between the balancer and fender .....

guys , just remeber , we have a select few who enjoy nothing more than stiring the pot ....

RobertCTS
12-06-05, 09:22 AM
I LOVE MY '04 CADILLAC. IT'S MY SECOND ONE. MY NEXT ONE WILL BE A CADILLAC.
We need the rep points back so we can squash the NaySayer back into Riceland. I don't know why they meddle in the Forum. I mean it's a Cadillac Forum. God if I hated Cadillac I wouldn't be wasting my friggin' time here. These people need to find another life.:want:

JoeKr
12-06-05, 10:09 AM
Ewill,
My compliments on a well thought-out position.

To the original poster - I believe most on this site are Cadillac supporters. But, one cannot deny the issues facing GM as a corporation.

Cadillac is a great success story that is still being written. The turnaround in the Cadillac brand within a few years, is just short of a miracle.

The scope (company, brand, vehicle) of the discussion is where there may be some misunderstanding.

GM
They are in financial crisis that is having an effect on the image farther down the chain. Some issues are structural and created by previous management administrations based on wage and benefit packages given to all employees, not just UAW or management, that are not sustainable. You can almost say that GM is a large social program. It is not a wealth creating business. In fact, only 4car companies actually create wealth. You can guess who they are.

One of the primary tenets of capitalism is growth. When your company is shrinking, too much time is spent on internal (right-sizing) efforts and not enough on creating, manufacturing, and selling the product. This is not unique to GM.

Many of the issues are self-inflicted. I believe a major wound was when the purchasing czar, Ignacio Lopez, started ripping up supplier agreements back in the 90s and set up the current situation where many of the suppliers are going bankrupt. To echo your sentiments - GM pays rock bottom prices for parts/subsystems. What kind of value do you think they are getting from many of their suppliers? GM consistently ranks at the bottom by their suppliers. As a result, they donot get the best efforts from their supply base. Now, I have spent my career selling to the auto industry, so my perspective is definitely biased.

Also, the history over the last 20 years is to homogenize the brands. Due to the loss of market share, it is only logical that specific brand segments would overlap with each other, creating redundancy. In reality, GM (and other large manufacturers) only really need three brands at a maximum - bottom, middle, and top. I know... I know - exotics. I guess that is a 4th. But one of the aspects about exotics is that they donot want to be associated with a macro-brands. It loses its panache (sp?)

Cadillac - The current GM success story
I cannot believe this brand has been totally turned around. Four years ago did anyone ever say Cadillac and Sport Sedan in the same article - let alone, sing their praises. Quality, performance, prestige has been restored. Are there issues, you bet. But, the last thing you want to be in the high-end segment is everything to everybody. That is the goal of the lesser, volume brands. My fear is that GM will do to it what they did to Saturn - start something positive then milk the hell out of it and consume the brand equiity they have created. Another words, my largest fear is overproduction. By making a product that exceeds demand, they can keep the selling price higher, profits higher, and resale higher. GM management will want to mine it for the quick sales figures.

GM really did a great job in deciding the vision of what the brand should do to address the need of a well defined demographic and took the risk with design to get attention. You can say alot (and much was negative) when the "Art & Science" design started with the CTS- but it sure got attention. Now, it is the most identifiable body style to brand out there, maybe with the exception of BMW.

Now, GM needs to create that same vision/identity to the other brands, There are indications that this taking place.

Vehicles
There is no need to go into details here, that is what the forum is here for. But, my CTS is the first car that I am actually proud to own since my '76 Camaro. It is very simple - it is the first car that I have had since then that is FUN TO DRIVE that I can actually use for business. Now, other vehicles and other vehicle brands offer the same image - but the CTS has unique styling that I like, powertrain requirement (manual), excellent quality, and it is a US based company.

In any segment, Best-in-Class = high profits. The trick is figuring the class you want to sell to, detemine what has to be delivered, and then deliver it. And one part of the equation is the dealership (selling/buying/maintenance) experience and it appears that Cadillac may need to improve this area based on my personal experience and posts by others.

General Comments:
I own non-GM vehicles for other members of the family. One is a Saturn and couple of Japanese vehicles. Though I have only owned US vehicles up to the last three years, I am impressed with what we have purchased from a Japanese brand. The fact is that car companies are global. The US based companies have the highest legacy costs in the world. It is these legacy costs that make them uncompetitive. But, this is a whole other discussion.

Just my thoughts....

Regards,
JoeKr

HotRodSaint
12-06-05, 10:20 AM
I hate all Cadillacs made after 1967 except for the '94-'96 Fleetwood and CTS/CTS-V!! 1968 is when Cadillac started it's long decline...

Well, there are exceptions. I like the 1st and 2nd gen Seville. I like the late '70's, early '80's Eldorado. And Coupe De Villes of any year are still ok, even if some years lacked classic styling.

BUT...when Cadillac stopped making big cars for old men they ceased to be Cadillac. Now, more than ever, they are just a division of GM. (And what's with this FWD crap anyway? Deviles/DTS are supposed to be big and RWD!!)

Give me a big RWD Cadillac with a big motor and make it black!!

I also think GM's management is screwed up and too focused on short term stock market value. And it has been for much too long. But Honda, Toyota or Nissan are no better at giving me the car I want.

Only the Australian divisions of GM and Ford make what I want. And damn it, I don't want to have to move to Australia to get a decent American car!!!

Chrysler comes close though, maybe their next gen will hit the nail on the head for me.

I want American companies to make American cars for Americans. If I wanted a me too Japanese car, I'd buy Hyundai. If I wanted a me too European car, I'd buy a Lexus.

So GM start being an American car company for Americans and leave the cop catting to those companies that have no heritage!! Because everything you copy, is an old boring Japanese car.

I mean really, does anyone think the new Impala is cutting edge in design? The Accord debuted that look 5 years ago!!!

hardrockcamaro@mac.c
12-06-05, 10:28 AM
Well, I drive a 2000 model STS to work everyday in heavy city traffic.
The computer is reporting 10mpg

I pay $6.00 a gallon.

I wouldn't be driving it if I didn't love it!

Elvis
12-06-05, 10:35 AM
We criticize because we care.

JoeKr
12-06-05, 10:37 AM
oops

JoeKr
12-06-05, 10:42 AM
There are two primary groups of Cadillac buyers - the oldtimers that like the land yachts and the new demo that is more performance driven. The largest differences are interior room and ride/suspension.

The US land yacht market segment was effectively taken over by the high-end SUV market. Big. powerful, and roomy.

Luv my CTS!

JoeKr

ewill3rd
12-06-05, 11:04 AM
I find myself wondering what model I would buy if I actually had the funds to do it. I live vicariously through all the cars I work on ;)

I like driving almost all of them. If I had an unlimited bank account I would lean towards the STS. I like the CTS but the STS has more room.
The DTS is a nice car but it's a little on the big side for me.
My wife dreams of owning an Escalade but she's happy with her Dodge Ram for now.

Katshot
12-06-05, 11:15 AM
Wow! Some great posts there.

ewill3rd,
I, like you are from the technical end of the business. I realize how mechanics can get seriously down on cars over the years, especially flat-rate dealer techs IMO. You make some great points but I must disagree with you on at least one point. I think it IS logical for the consumer to expect a better quality product when being charged a premium price for it. I think this is especially true with "premium" type vehicles like Cadillac. I realize that much of a Cadillac is really no better than a Chevy but there ARE many things that are sufficiently improved through both engineering and upgraded materials that the consumer has every reason to assume that a Cadillac is NOT merely a tarted-up Chevy. "Tarted-up" specifically referring to more options as you say. And when you ARE paying a premium for a premium brand, I feel you should get not only your money's worth with respect to the product but an increased level of customer service. the OEMs seem to realize this, they sure market the products in such a way to promote the increased levels at least.

JoeKr,
Great post man. Some interesting thoughts.

HotRodSaint,
Damn man! You "HATE all Cadillacs after 1967 except for the '94-'96 Fleetwood and CTS/CTS-V"? That severely limits the content here for you huh? I too, am no fan of any of the FWD Cadillacs but there ARE a few I kind of liked the styling of at least. I liked the mid-80's Eldo and Seville, I liked the first gen Seville too actually. And I liked most if not all of the RWD cars up until the last in '96. Finally, I 90% like the CTS-V. Love the performance, semi-like the exterior, don't much care for the interior.

Katshot
12-06-05, 11:18 AM
I find myself wondering what model I would buy if I actually had the funds to do it. I live vicariously through all the cars I work on ;)
I like driving almost all of them. If I had an unlimited bank account I would lean towards the STS. I like the CTS but the STS has more room.
The DTS is a nice car but it's a little on the big side for me.
My wife dreams of owning an Escalade but she's happy with her Dodge Ram for now.

Ya know, that's the second time you mentioned money. You make it sound like a dealer tech is poor. Not sure about what you do at the dealer you're at or how long you've been there but I know dealer A-techs that are bringing home some SERIOUS money.

mccombie_5
12-06-05, 11:24 AM
I love my Cadillacs enough to have imported them from the US......

And I deal with driving 2/3 of my caddies on the wrong side....

I still love them

ewill3rd
12-06-05, 11:48 AM
Kat,

I make a fair salary, but there are no rewards in this business for an A tech that does the kind of work I do.
I think it's a fair wage for what I do in this area but It's a 4 dollar an hour cut in pay from what I was making in California. The cost of living is a bit lower here except for housing. I am not "poor" per se, but I do have a very expensive home and my Wife is a PhD who earns a salary almost twice mine and it's her second year out of college. I have been in this trade for about 12 years. Most of what I do is electrical work and probably 80 percent of what I do is warranty work on new cars. Mostly stuff that nobody else in the dealership wants to do. GM does not reward techs with high pay for finding problems like the ones I work on. At best doing what I normally do I can get paid my 40 hours at my pay rate. There are guys swapping out pistons, rebuilding transmissions and changing engines that are making over 100 hours in a week, but my back can't handle that kind of work, plus I really don't like it.
If I traded my Trailblazer in and went a little deeper in debt I could probably honestly afford the payments but I don't want to encourage myself to do that because it would make me feel even more poor. Apart from my mortgage and 2 car payments (that are almost paid off) I really don't have much debt. I pay my credit cards off every month and have no vices except for buying DVDs (my current collection contains over 400 disks in all, some are box sets but it's about 200 titles)... I had to cut myself back to one a month because it was costing a lot. Maybe that would all change if people had some respect for the folks working on their cars instead of jumping in our faces and tell us how much we suck right out of the gate. I mean these cars are more complicated than the craft that put man on the moon but I am supposed to be spot on 100% of the time the first time every time. I try my best but there are still problems out there that GM engineers can't even solve, I seem to be responsible for that according to the general public as well. On top of that the honest guys get to earn a reputation from the few dishonest ones on national TV and then try to explain to someone why our shop labor rate is what it is. It's such a great business to be in....

Anyway.... enough about that.

I do agree that paying a premium price for a premium car, you should expect a higher degree of quality, and I didn't mean to say that Cadi doesn't care more about quality than Chevy does, what I really intended to say was that it's not as if less expensive carline carmakers don't care about quality as much.
Most of the cost, I think, is because of superior design and higher grade materials. I mean a luxury or performance car costs more in R&D and in production. It makes sense to expect more from a higher priced car in the way of quality, but I think a lot of people take it to an extreme.

I wish I got paid to hear people tell me how much they paid for their car every time they bring it in with something wrong with it.
I don't get a dime when our sales department sells a car and I respect the fact that you paid more for it, but whether you paid 1,000 dollars or 85,000dollars doesn't really matter to me, I treat people the same because when I am working on their cars, I get paid the same.
If I am working on a Catera or an XLR all I see is parts and wires. I treat them all with respect because they are not mine and my customers are entrusting me with them to get them fixed.

Sorry for the confusion of my previous remarks. I hope that makes it more clear.

Anybody who wants to talk to my boss about giving me a raise... most of you already know who he is... knock yourselves out.... :D
;)

mccombie_5
12-06-05, 12:00 PM
Yeah, I speak to alot of technicians in various dealerships, I dont want to deal with the girl on the desk telling me what is wrong with my car, I want to go out to the shop and see whats wrong with it. They are mostly willing to show me and point out waht the problems are and I respect them for that.

I was recently at a Mercedes dealership having my S600 serviced, and as I was waiting in the office a couple came in and shouted the place down about how they had sent their car in last week showing a fault, and they had paid 200 (not much in a Mercedes garage) and the fault was still showing, they wanted the technician hung drawn and quartered. These guys work hard on our vehicles.

As for a salary, they arent really realistic as to what most people actually walk away with.

Once you take out mortgage, cars, other debts and such like, most people only have a quarter of what they earn in their pocket.

Kev
12-06-05, 12:18 PM
....they wanted the technician hung drawn and quartered. ....Are you guys still doing that over there?! :confused: :eek:
And all this time I thought you guys were civilized.....:canttalk: :bigroll: :duck:
:p

mccombie_5
12-06-05, 12:19 PM
Are you guys still doing that over there?! :confused: :eek:
And all this time I thought you guys were civilized.....:canttalk: :bigroll: :duck:
:p

LOL

Well, err, y'know
:getaway:

I~LUV~Caddys8792
12-06-05, 12:24 PM
Cadillacs are great automobiles

I have loved Caddys since I was 14.

Caddys to me, are one of the american dreams. To have your own house in a nice part of town, and a Cadillac in your driveway to me means you've made it. It's too bad this dream has changed for the rest of the american population. Now everyone wants Hondas, Toyotas or Mercedes and BMW's, I admit they're nice cars, but Cadillacs are still my favorite car brand.

I love the older Cadillacs (pre 1997) more than the newer ones.
They have so much class, dignity and style, they were very american, and very bold. Now the newer ones are nice too, don't get me wrong, but it's not the same, they are changing to be like the imports which is good to keep sales up, but it's the death of the true american car. I honestly believe the last true Cadillac was the 96 Fleetwood Brougham. The RWD, body on frame monster was the last of GM's grand, elegant luxury liners. After that was gone, the only true american luxury car was the Town Car.

If I didn't like Cadillacs, would I have one when I'm in college, when everyone else is driving "economy cars"?
I dont think so.

If I didn't like them, I surely wouldn't buy another after the bizarre problem my engine block has (coolant leak). But I recognize this is a fluke motor, and this doesn't make all Caddys bad.

Oh yeah, and look at my name on here, and recognize that my nickname is "Chadillac"
I luv Caddys!

Kev
12-06-05, 12:24 PM
LOL

Well, err, y'know
:getaway:Don't worry about it Mac, we're still much more cruel and barbaric. We sue the pants off 'em!

Kev
12-06-05, 12:26 PM
I love my old 89 and am looking forward to finding a nice low mileage STS with a N* to replace her in a few years.

mccombie_5
12-06-05, 12:26 PM
Don't worry about it Mac, we're still much more cruel and barbaric. We sue the pants off 'em!
:histeric: :histeric: :yup:

Although the compensation culture is catching on here too.

Soon we're going to be too scared to speak in case someone sues us!

mccombie_5
12-06-05, 12:27 PM
I love my old 89 and am looking forward to finding a nice low mileage STS with a N* to replace her in a few years.

Nice :thumbsup:

90Brougham350
12-06-05, 12:33 PM
Night Wolf, I've been saying that for a long time. It's one thing to have true fans and owners talk about the good and bad points, but it sucks to have a bunch of trolls as members, that only hang around to use every chance to bad mouth GM and Cadillac. We could all rattle off their user names like a who's who of pains in the ass. Some are very young while others should know better.

Obviously my name is in that list, but let me tell you, I don't hate GM, I hate what GM has done to itself. I don't want the GM I grew up with, I want the GM Kat and Sandy grew up with. I love my Brougham, I think it's the classiest mother-effin car ever built, but the way GM is crashing down right now is embarassing to American Business as a whole. I don't like FWD, that's no secret. Therefore, I dislike to some degree almost all passenger vehicles GM builds. I love the V family, but the STS-V needs a lot more power and the CTS-V needs a new pumpkin and less wheel hop. GM doesn't build the vehicles it once does, and it's getting it's ass handed to it. Good, actions speak louder than words. But I love Cadillac. Cadillac is the most American automobile company in my book. When you think of a classic car, you think of the '59 Eldo. I love Cadillac, but I can't help but shake my head in amazement at the crap that's been coming out of GM lately, or the way the GM empire is trying to deal with its problems right now.

ShadowLvr400
12-06-05, 12:43 PM
I got ticked with GM in the past 10 yrs... Death of the big body RWD car, end of the beloved Camaro, a dedication to FWD, end of Oldsmobile, the spineless SS's coming out, just too many things to still be happy with GM. But, as things start to improove, like the new Vette, GM has been sluggishly winning me back. But their failure to rise to the multiple challenges made in multiple markets by the other manufacturers is depressing. Ford brought out the retro Mustang, Dodge has their Challenger on the way, Nissan has the 350Z, GM has...... Nada. Dodge gave the Viper, GM has finally gotten the Z06 to stand up to the Viper, bou time, and well done it seems. The Lucerne I need to see more of in person, but has potential. As for the new Cadillacs... sorry, but the ones I've driven so far ride harder than any car I've driven. My 99 olds absorbs the bumps better. Hell, my riding lawn mower absorbs more impact. Nice motors are good, but pain is not.

Katshot
12-06-05, 12:49 PM
Kat,
I make a fair salary, but there are no rewards in this business for an A tech that does the kind of work I do.
I think it's a fair wage for what I do in this area but It's a 4 dollar an hour cut in pay from what I was making in California. The cost of living is a bit lower here except for housing. I am not "poor" per se, but I do have a very expensive home and my Wife is a PhD who earns a salary almost twice mine and it's her second year out of college. I have been in this trade for about 12 years. Most of what I do is electrical work and probably 80 percent of what I do is warranty work on new cars. Mostly stuff that nobody else in the dealership wants to do. GM does not reward techs with high pay for finding problems like the ones I work on. At best doing what I normally do I can get paid my 40 hours at my pay rate. There are guys swapping out pistons, rebuilding transmissions and changing engines that are making over 100 hours in a week, but my back can't handle that kind of work, plus I really don't like it.
If I traded my Trailblazer in and went a little deeper in debt I could probably honestly afford the payments but I don't want to encourage myself to do that because it would make me feel even more poor. Apart from my mortgage and 2 car payments (that are almost paid off) I really don't have much debt. I pay my credit cards off every month and have no vices except for buying DVDs (my current collection contains over 400 disks in all, some are box sets but it's about 200 titles)... I had to cut myself back to one a month because it was costing a lot. Maybe that would all change if people had some respect for the folks working on their cars instead of jumping in our faces and tell us how much we suck right out of the gate. I mean these cars are more complicated than the craft that put man on the moon but I am supposed to be spot on 100% of the time the first time every time. I try my best but there are still problems out there that GM engineers can't even solve, I seem to be responsible for that according to the general public as well. On top of that the honest guys get to earn a reputation from the few dishonest ones on national TV and then try to explain to someone why our shop labor rate is what it is. It's such a great business to be in....
Anyway.... enough about that.
I do agree that paying a premium price for a premium car, you should expect a higher degree of quality, and I didn't mean to say that Cadi doesn't care more about quality than Chevy does, what I really intended to say was that it's not as if less expensive carline carmakers don't care about quality as much.
Most of the cost, I think, is because of superior design and higher grade materials. I mean a luxury or performance car costs more in R&D and in production. It makes sense to expect more from a higher priced car in the way of quality, but I think a lot of people take it to an extreme.
I wish I got paid to hear people tell me how much they paid for their car every time they bring it in with something wrong with it.
I don't get a dime when our sales department sells a car and I respect the fact that you paid more for it, but whether you paid 1,000 dollars or 85,000dollars doesn't really matter to me, I treat people the same because when I am working on their cars, I get paid the same.
If I am working on a Catera or an XLR all I see is parts and wires. I treat them all with respect because they are not mine and my customers are entrusting me with them to get them fixed.
Sorry for the confusion of my previous remarks. I hope that makes it more clear.
Anybody who wants to talk to my boss about giving me a raise... most of you already know who he is... knock yourselves out.... :D
;)

I feel for you man. I really do. I can even relate to your feelings completely. To be honest, I've had it worse. Try being the tech AND the owner of the shop. I got it no matter what. That's why I can honestly tell you that I understand your feelings. 20 years at the the fleet followed by having my own shop wore me down too.
Unfortunately, there are a lot of bad mechanics out there that have been conspiring for years to give us good guys a bad rep. I've written articles in magazines about that very subject, it pains me so much. I hate that auto mechanics are usually bearly a step up from a used car salesman as far as average public perception of competence and honesty.
My problem is I'm also on the other side of the fence quite often. I've bought a lot of new vehicles over the years and if you think it's bad on the mechanic's side of the fence, try being a professional tech on the BUYER's side of the fence. You want to talk about the ultimate in frustration?!
I can't tell you the crap that I've been told by mechanics, shop foremen, service writers, and service managers with respect to vehicles I've taken in for warranty repairs. the CRAP they've tried to pull on me is relentless.
One time, the only way I got a dealership to fix my car was to offer the service manager the phone number of the GM engineer who designed the component we were fighting about! I've had some virtual knock-down drag em out's with dealership people over the years. THAT's what bothers me about the OEMs I write about most. There are problems that are obvious to the trained eye yet they try to feighn ignorance of them to your face. It's unacceptable to me for a manufacturer to knowingly force consumers into accepting known flaws as being acceptable.

Randy_W
12-06-05, 12:53 PM
I hope this place doesn't adopt an attitude of "see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil" with respect to Cadillacs, because if it does, the true value of the place will be lost IMO.

Kat, so do I, and that is certainly not what this thread is about. It's about those that bash on every thread and never provide anything constructive.

ewill3rd, those are great thoughts, man. Probably some of the best stuff I've seen here in a while.:thumbsup:

iametarq
12-06-05, 12:54 PM
I love my Cadillac and I love my Dad's and I love our old one.

I'd pick my Cadillac any day over anything else.

I don't think the government would really let GM die either.

Katshot
12-06-05, 12:59 PM
It's about those that bash on every thread and never provide anything constructive.

I would agree that anyone who only offers negative stuff is probably not an asset to this forum. For the most part, I try to avoid those people on forums, I generally end up in a fight with them anyway, and that's seldom useful to anyone.

thu
12-06-05, 01:21 PM
If I didn't like Caddies, I wouldn't have just bought my third one! They've all been used Caddies. I found that as far as *value* goes, it's really really tough to beat a Caddy.

I hear some people talk about this car and some other car having almost 150,000 miles or approaching 200,000 miles. Stuff like that. They think they're smart for not buying domestic. The room goes quiet when I tell them my 1985 Deville made it to 238,000 miles and my 1993 Deville is currently at 298,000 miles and still looks like it's new.

It's all attitude, it seems.

Playdrv4me
12-06-05, 01:36 PM
This topic seems to crop up here on a fairly regular basis... and my answer never changes...

I think there are very few people who "tow the line" as far as any entire corporation is concerned... myself included. I am NOT a fan of GM and I never will be, they make several products that are anywhere from subpar to completely unacceptable in the market they serve. Ford to some extent, though quite a bit less, has the same problem. Both companies, and GM moreso, are in serious financial waters right now because of lackluster products, declining reliability, piss poor management and a host of other problems. I for one am not supporting either of them hand and foot.

As far as Cadillac goes, there are a select number of Cadillacs throughout the years that have always appealed to me regardless of what the rest of the brand is doing... classic Eldorados, 92-03 STS, current STS, CTS-V, Escalade etc. But thats as far as my loyalties to Cadillac go. I want to see Cadillac succeed but until things are at the level that I expect in some of the other brands I shop I will make no apologies for not owning one and not necessarily painting a pretty picture about the brand as a whole. Thats just how I feel. I think most here recognize my position and respect it, and while we do have a few bad apples, on the balance there is no other Forum I would rather be on because this forum has the best mix of members period.

I am above all else, a LUXURY CAR enthusiast, not just a Cadillac enthusiast.

thu
12-06-05, 01:37 PM
This came out in today's Wall Street Journal's Opinion Page:

COMMENTARY
RICK WAGONER

GM wants a level playing field, not a bailout.

A Portrait of My Industry

By RICK WAGONER
December 6, 2005; Page A20

DETROIT -- Since mid-October, General Motors has announced plans to cease production at 12 North American manufacturing facilities and eliminate 30,000 jobs by 2008; trim $1 billion in net material costs in 2006; and, in cooperation with the United Automobile Workers, reduce GM's retiree health-care liabilities by $15 billion, or about 25%, for an annualized expense reduction of $3 billion.

The reason for these dramatic actions is no secret: GM has lost a lot of money in 2005, due to rapidly increasing health-care and raw-material costs, lower sales volumes and a weaker sales mix -- essentially, we've sold fewer high-profit SUVs and more lower-profit cars. What is less clear is why things turned sour so fast for GM, as well as for other American auto makers and suppliers. To put it another way, why are so many foreign auto makers and suppliers doing well in the United States, while so many U.S.-based auto companies are not?

* * *
Despite public perception, the answer is not that foreign auto makers are more productive or offer better-quality or more fuel-efficient vehicles. In this year's Harbour Report, which measures manufacturing productivity, GM plants took three of the top five spots in North America, including first and second place. In the latest J.D. Power Initial Quality Study, GM's Buick and Cadillac ranked among the top five vehicle brands sold in America, ahead of nameplates like Toyota, Honda, Acura, Nissan, Infiniti and Mercedes-Benz. And GM offers more models that get over 30 miles per gallon (highway) than any other auto maker.

In fact, this kind of operating performance makes GM's recent financial performance all the more frustrating. The fact is, we're building the best cars and trucks we've ever built at GM, our products are receiving excellent reviews, and we're running the business in a globally competitive manner. Outside of North America, we're setting sales records. In fact, for the first time in our history, we will sell more cars and trucks this year outside the United States than inside, aided in no small part by our market-leading performance in China.

So why, fundamentally, are GM and the U.S. auto industry struggling right now?

Intense competition, for one. The global auto business grows tougher every year, and we accept that. Our ability to compete has made us the world's No. 1 auto maker for 74 consecutive years, and we're fighting hard to stay on top.

Beyond that, our performance in the marketplace has not been what we've wanted it to be. While we've been strong in truck sales, we've been weaker in cars, and, yes, the recent surge in gas prices hurt sales. While we've led in technologies like OnStar, we've lagged in others like hybrid vehicles. Rest assured, we're working hard to address the areas where we lag. Simply put, we are committed to doing a better job of designing, building and selling high-quality, high-value cars and trucks that consumers can't wait to buy. No excuses. We will step up our performance in this regard.

But competition and marketplace performance are not the whole story. To fully understand why GM and the U.S. auto industry are struggling right now, we have to understand some of the fundamental challenges facing American manufacturing in general -- challenges well beyond the control of any single company.

There are those who ask if manufacturing is still relevant for America. My view: You bet it is! Manufacturing generates two-thirds of America's R&D investment, accounts for three-fourths of our exports, and creates about 15 million American jobs. And the auto industry is a big part of that, accounting for 11% of American manufacturing, and nearly 4% of U.S. GDP. Together, GM, Ford and DaimlerChrysler invest more than $16 billion in research and development every year -- more than any other U.S. industry. And GM, alone, supports more than one million American jobs.

So what are the fundamental challenges facing American manufacturing? One is the spiraling cost of health care in the United States. Last year, GM spent $5.2 billion on health care for its U.S. employees, retirees and dependents -- a staggering $1,525 for every car and truck we produced. And the figure is going up again this year. Foreign auto makers have just a fraction of these costs, because they have few, if any, U.S. retirees, and in their home countries their governments fund a much greater portion of employee and retiree health-care costs.

Some argue that we have no one but ourselves to blame for our disproportionately high health-care "legacy costs." That kind of observation reminds me of the saying that no good deed going unpunished. That argument, while appealing to some, ignores the fact that American auto makers and other traditional manufacturing companies created a social contract with government and labor that raised America's standard of living and provided much of the economic growth of the 20th century. American manufacturers were once held up as good corporate citizens for providing these benefits. Today, we are maligned for our poor judgment in "giving away" such benefits 40 years ago.

Another factor beyond our control is lawsuit abuse. Litigation now costs the U.S. economy more than $245 billion a year, or more than $845 per person. That's more than 2% of our GDP. No other country has costs anywhere near this level. And the perverse thing is that, in many cases, the majority of courtroom settlements go to the lawyers and other litigation costs, not to the injured parties.

Another major concern is unfair trading practices, especially Japan's long-term initiatives to artificially weaken the yen. A leading Japanese auto maker reports that for each movement of one yen against the dollar, it gains 20 billion yen in additional profitability -- or nearly $170 million at today's exchange rate. No wonder Japanese auto makers have noted their recent record profits were aided by exchange rates. And no wonder the U.S. trade-balance deficit continues to grow by leaps and bounds.

There are other issues, of course, but my point is this: We at GM have a number of tough challenges that we must and will address on our own -- but we also carry some huge costs that our foreign competitors do not share.

Some say we're looking for a bailout. Baloney -- we at GM do not want a bailout. What we want -- after we take the actions we are taking, in product, technology, cost and every area we're working in our business today -- is the chance to compete on a level playing field. It's critical that government leaders, supported by business, unions and all our citizens, forge policy solutions to the issues undercutting American manufacturing competitiveness. We can do this. And we need to do it now.

Mr. Wagoner is chairman and CEO of the General Motors Corporation.

Spittin Game
12-06-05, 02:05 PM
Opinions are a good thing. Without them it would be a very bland world.

And being brand loyal is stupid, unless Caddilac is paying you to use their cars then theirs no reason you cant like or support a different maker.

I read one dude on here that said: "Since I own an infinity, I feel its my duty to bash lexus". Now thats just dumb.

I absolutely hate the way the 2007 Escalade looks, but thats my opinion. More than likely I wont be getting another Caddy after I trade my current Lade. Just b/c I have one, doesnt mean I cant like other cars or must agree with everything that Cadillac does.

Jesda
12-06-05, 02:34 PM
That was me, and since I'm an Infiniti guy, I feel its my duty to bash Lexus. Its a fun rivalry between owners that goes back 15 years, nothing more. :)

Katshot
12-06-05, 03:13 PM
That was me, and since I'm an Infiniti guy, I feel its my duty to bash Lexus. Its a fun rivalry between owners that goes back 15 years, nothing more. :)
No different than Chevy and Ford guys feeling it's their duty to bash one another IMO.

DBA-One
12-06-05, 03:32 PM
I don't care for any 60's Caddy excpet the '67 or so Eldorado. Those are hot. I don't like any 80's Caddy really excpet the '89 or so DeVille. Now, I love the Seville from 92 up, the DeVille from 95 (I think. When they rounded the wheel arches in the back) and I love the prior and current DTS.

My Caddy is a '92 and it is built like a brick shit house. I just had the tie rod ends replaced Friday and the car now has no squeeks or rattles. This car is 13 years old and runs fantasic, looks great, etc. So much for poor build quality huh? My wifes Acura has a ton of problems and that is supposed to be the better car but it can't touch my Caddy.

I was in to Mustangs before I got this car. Now, I can't see owning anything but a Cadillac. From here on out I'll just trade up. Next, I want the newest Seville I can afford, or perhaps a DTC with chromw wheels and the center consolde. I've truly become a Cadillac man.

There is a reason my Grandpa swore by these cars. It wasn't because he was old. It was because he knew what Cadillac style and value were. He was right and now I've learned, too.

Randy_W
12-06-05, 03:47 PM
This topic seems to crop up here on a fairly regular basis... and my answer never changes...

I think there are very few people who "tow the line" as far as any entire corporation is concerned... myself included. I am NOT a fan of GM and I never will be, they make several products that are anywhere from subpar to completely unacceptable in the market they serve. Ford to some extent, though quite a bit less, has the same problem. Both companies, and GM moreso, are in serious financial waters right now because of lackluster products, declining reliability, piss poor management and a host of other problems. I for one am not supporting either of them hand and foot.

As far as Cadillac goes, there are a select number of Cadillacs throughout the years that have always appealed to me regardless of what the rest of the brand is doing... classic Eldorados, 92-03 STS, current STS, CTS-V, Escalade etc. But thats as far as my loyalties to Cadillac go. I want to see Cadillac succeed but until things are at the level that I expect in some of the other brands I shop I will make no apologies for not owning one and not necessarily painting a pretty picture about the brand as a whole. Thats just how I feel. I think most here recognize my position and respect it, and while we do have a few bad apples, on the balance there is no other Forum I would rather be on because this forum has the best mix of members period.

I am above all else, a LUXURY CAR enthusiast, not just a Cadillac enthusiast.

You and I have been in dissagreements before and I'm not being a smartass. I truely wonder, with how you feel about Cadillac and in a broader sense GM, why you ever bought their products and what attracts you to this forum? Wouldn't you be more at home with a group of like minded people? You prefer German cars, and it certainly is your right to do so. Wouldn't you get more satisfaction dealing with others in the same boat? I'm not saying you shouldn't be here, just wondering about that in your case as well as many others. It's not about believing GM or any division is perfect, I sure don't, but if I had no major positive feelings for the corp., I wouldn't be here.

I truely am not down talking you for what you like or trying to push any buttons, I would just find it interesting to understand non enthusiests reasons for using this forum.

mccombie_5
12-06-05, 03:51 PM
I am here because I am a Cadillac owner, and I am also a luxury car enthusiast, and I also like German cars, and British/ American or British/ German cars, I dont know where I should go, I know here is one of them, because this palce is a valuable source of info.

Randy_W
12-06-05, 03:51 PM
Another major concern is unfair trading practices, especially Japan's long-term initiatives to artificially weaken the yen. A leading Japanese auto maker reports that for each movement of one yen against the dollar, it gains 20 billion yen in additional profitability -- or nearly $170 million at today's exchange rate. No wonder Japanese auto makers have noted their recent record profits were aided by exchange rates. And no wonder the U.S. trade-balance deficit continues to grow by leaps and bounds.

There are other issues, of course, but my point is this: We at GM have a number of tough challenges that we must and will address on our own -- but we also carry some huge costs that our foreign competitors do not share.

Some say we're looking for a bailout. Baloney -- we at GM do not want a bailout. What we want -- after we take the actions we are taking, in product, technology, cost and every area we're working in our business today -- is the chance to compete on a level playing field. It's critical that government leaders, supported by business, unions and all our citizens, forge policy solutions to the issues undercutting American manufacturing competitiveness. We can do this. And we need to do it now.

Mr. Wagoner is chairman and CEO of the General Motors Corporation


I posted almost exactly the same thing on a thread about GM layoffs and plant closings a couple of weeks back, and it's oh, so true!

Krashed989
12-06-05, 04:34 PM
I love my eldo, and I will not let it die. Even though it's trying... Hard... :suspense: ...

I don't really have my eyes set on the newer caddies though. I don't know why but they just don't appeal to me. Please don't flame me for this but I think my next car will be a new GTO. I like the styling of it even though it is nothing like the old GTO's. I will most likely still have the caddy though for the rest of its life, and get a new caddy after that.

hardrockcamaro@mac.c
12-06-05, 04:42 PM
Spittin: Lighten up mate. As per your post on another thread, you can't seem to take a joke. An Infiniti fan knocking Lexus is like a Ford guy knocking Chevy. It's just a fun game that's been played for years between car enthusiasts (and enthusiasts of other products). And with regards the other post, my comment about Lexus being a Toyota with leather seats was also a joke. Look at the length of most of my posts and look at the length of that particular post I made and the fact I didn't even give an opinion on the other 2 vehicles and you should see it's a joke. It was intentional because I know there's always someone who'll take the bait.


If we all take things seriously on here it's going to get boring fast.
This is the Lounge, for having a laugh and kicking back.


Sadly these sorts of arguments exist on every single brand enthusiast forum I've ever been on.


As for loyalty to Cadillac. The STS is the first one I've ever owned and I love it. In fact I love pretty much any american car. I also drive an IROC Camaro. A car I believe is considered white trash or redneck over there? I don't care, I love it (in fact I love it more than my Cadillac and if I had to cut down to one car I suspect the Cadillac would be the one to go even though t's better in every way). Basically I love domestics. Except they're not, to me they're imports so I'm not being patriotic.
I like my STS, I'd like (I suspect) the new STS as a replacment 3 or 5 years down the line. But I'd also like a Jaguar.
I'm not saying I'd prefer a Jaguar, but Im not saying that I'd prefer a Cadillac either.

Hopefully we can all appreciate what Cadillac stands for while also recognising there is a world outside GM.

mccombie_5
12-06-05, 04:45 PM
:thumbsup: hrc

Lord Cadillac
12-06-05, 04:45 PM
Of course, I love Cadillac.. That's pretty obvious.. Although like many others in this thread, I'm not as giddy about their current lineup as most people are. I like the "old" Cadillac. You know - the one everybody seems to have forgotten about. Big, comfortable, soft-riding cars with plenty of power. Nowadays, people sacrifice comfort for competition. Everybody wants a BMW. And now they can get one with a Cadillac badge on it.

What about me? What about the guy who wants a "Cadillac"? Can't he have one anymore? To people like me, the last "Cadillac" was the 1996 RWD Fleetwood. That's almost 10 years ago. I hope that Cadillac creates another LARGE, comfortable vehicle like the Lincoln Town Car. But what do I do until then? I'm not happy with this DeVille DTS. I suppose I need to sell it and "hopefully" find a mint condition, 10 year old Fleetwood. Or buy a Lincoln?

Playdrv4me
12-06-05, 04:48 PM
You and I have been in dissagreements before and I'm not being a smartass. I truely wonder, with how you feel about Cadillac and in a broader sense GM, why you ever bought their products and what attracts you to this forum? Wouldn't you be more at home with a group of like minded people? You prefer German cars, and it certainly is your right to do so. Wouldn't you get more satisfaction dealing with others in the same boat? I'm not saying you shouldn't be here, just wondering about that in your case as well as many others. It's not about believing GM or any division is perfect, I sure don't, but if I had no major positive feelings for the corp., I wouldn't be here.
I truely am not down talking you for what you like or trying to push any buttons, I would just find it interesting to understand non enthusiests reasons for using this forum.

Honestly? I am here because I had some issues with my 2001 STS and came upon this forum 3 years ago... Ever since then I found out that this place has bar-none the BEST members of any forum I have ever visited anywhere. Kids, middle aged and older adults... we have it all... There is no other forum I have ever been on that has such a vast diversity of tastes and demographics. My admiration for Cadillacs is only half the reason Im here... my admiration for this boards members (even you Randy :grouphug: ), is the other half.

People on this board understand what being a car enthusiast is about more than just about anywhere else Ive ever been.

hardrockcamaro@mac.c
12-06-05, 04:56 PM
Agreed.

The fact that this brand specific board has people who drive Nissans (waves at Jesda ;) ), VW Passats (waves at McCombie ;) ), Pontiacs, Hyundai, Chevrolet, Buick, Chrysler and more says a lot in my opinion.
We even have people who aspire to Toyotas with the leather seat pack. (sorry, couldn't resist, I'll cut it out!)

In fact, this boards members are far more open mind than any other brand specific forum I've been on. And not just about what they get up to in their own homes, but about cars too.

<grin>

mccombie_5
12-06-05, 05:03 PM
Agreed.

The fact that this brand specific board has people who drive Nissans (waves at Jesda ;) ), VW Passats (waves at McCombie ;) ), Pontiacs, Hyundai, Chevrolet, Buick, Chrysler and more says a lot in my opinion.
We even have people who aspire to Toyotas with the leather seat pack. (sorry, couldn't resist, I'll cut it out!)

In fact, this boards members are far more open mind than any other brand specific forum I've been on. And not just about what they get up to in their own homes, but about cars too.

<grin>

Ooooooh

War

:lildevil:

hardrockcamaro@mac.c
12-06-05, 05:05 PM
Hehe!!!
I don't want to read any comments about my Cheveroo IROC either!

:want:

Kev
12-06-05, 05:07 PM
Now you two Brits play nice with each other! Must set a good example for the realm! :rolleyes: :)

Lord Cadillac
12-06-05, 05:08 PM
People on this board understand what being a car enthusiast is about more than just about anywhere else Ive ever been.

Thank you. This is exactly what I had intended from day one. I didn't want this to be a Cadillac parade. It was meant to become a platform for "constructive" criticism, as well as a place to hand out kudos when they're due.. Like Katshot mentioned, it's difficult to improve on a product without constructive criticism...

Kdirk
12-06-05, 05:08 PM
Yup,

What doesn't make sense is that this is really the government's fault. They have continued to allow trade imbalances to go on unchecked. For Gods Sake, they could just force the issue with the Japanese and Germans in particular and say for every Toyota or BMW sold here, there has to be a Chevy or Cadillac sold there. That simple, and if they don't like it, piss on 'em. They (the Japanese and Germans) are profitting heavily at the expense of our (US) longterm economic stability and the future of many of or major corporations.

We the people have allowed OUR government to sell out the best interests of America (and many Americans have bought the cars that have created the trade gap, and the auto trade is just the tip of the iceberg). Most don't think about the problem, they just buy the car that fits their image.

Then, when reminded that while it's their right to buy the car they like, they still should have a duty to do what is in the best interest of THEIR country, they deflect the issue by bashing domestic cars as substandard crap to justify the fact that the profits from the $50,000 or more car they bought went to another country. And, none of this will matter to them until they can't afford to put food on the table because the US economy collasped due to lack of a maufacturing industry.

By then it will be too late, and they will all be whining about their reduced standard of living, and their inablility to send two kids to an ivy league university. Then I'll say I told you so [for the last 20+ years] but you didn't listen and look where it got you.

For a moment forget your personal preferences and what you perceive to be the best car and consider the big picture, for your own good and that of your children [if you have any]. We have to have manufacturing power in this country to remain viable. We are going to a service economy? WTF is that? Are we all going to sling burgers or work a cash register for just over minium wage, with no benefits?

There are not enough well paying "white-collar" jobs for every one to be a manager or executive to maintain the US economy that we now know. There are also a lot of people not suited to doing these jobs. What do you tell them? Too bad, you have to work for lousy pay and [no] beneifts because I had to have a Lexus? And even if you can get a cush management job, what are you going to be managing when all the heavy industry has either been outsourced or has collapsed from unfair international competition.

This is why I complain about the group think that permeates the bias against US cars and the so often apparently blind devotion to imports. Many people of my generation (27-33 or so) have grown up with the notion that American cars stink, because that's what they've been told their whole lives. For a time, that was true, and I won't dispute that. The 80's were a very bad time for the big 3. They have realized that now and have taken steps to correct their stupidity.

Now, we have real contenders. Yet, BMW and Lexus sales continue to increase at a rate greater than domestics because these neo-yuppies refuse to even consider that things have changed, and will not give the US cars a fighting chance. Also, while some genuinely buy a BMW for its much vaunted handling characteristics, most (that I know personally) buy it because...everyone else is driving one. Gee, that's smart. They buy it for looks and status, not because they are serious drivers and truly appreciate the way it hugs the road. So, I can make the argument that they should just as easily be buying a Cadillac because they aren't buying the BMW for the reason that is so often cited for their [supposed] superiority, they are just buying it to seem like they are as affluent and "enlightened" as their co-workers.

Until enough people realize that a failure to retain a strong domestic manufacturing industry (and automotive is chief amongst this) we will doom ourselves to be the next third world while Asia takes our place as the world power in a couple of generations.

I will not point fingers and say this is the import buyers fault [solely]. This is government bungling at its finest [worst] by allowing [mainly] Toyota to sell so many cars here without requiring them to reciprocate in the Japanese market with American cars. Likewise, as Wagoner pointed out in his memo, Japan has jiggled the value of the Yen to their benifit as it relates to exports.

This is nothing new, in the 70's, when companies like Pioneer, Sansui and Kenwood made really great stereo gear, they could build it like tanks, and sell it here for [relatively] cheap versus say McIntosh which was made in the US because the Yen was worth so much less than the dollar. Then when the product sold for US dollars, the profits in Japan were much greater. This gives them more incentive to dump product and manipulate currency valuations, as it improves their bottom line. Smart business for them, bad future for us.

Meanwhile, US product is barely allowed into their ports. Write this down - the issue is coming to a head as we speak, the problems at GM have focused a lot of attention on this and people are beginning to understand the system, and what is at stake. The government will either do something about correcting the trade imbalances that exist, or when enough people realize their standard of living is at stake on account of it they will demand action.

There are noticeable changes taking place as we speak, in regards to the US auto industry. People are beginning to consider the quality of US cars for the first time in 2, almost 3 decades. And the imports are showing their weaknesses in over-engineering and complexity that cause product recalls and ongoing repairs.

But, I am an impatient person (and worried at the slow pace of change for the better) and I wonder where this will all shake out. A society is always slow to notice these kinds of things and what they stand to lose until they have let it slide for too long. This is how empires fall and we would do well to remind ourselves collectively that it is time to "shit or get off the pot", because if we wait much longer to take the needed action, we will not have a pot to use.

I write all this not out of a desire to bash import drivers, but out of concern for things that are much larger than one's choice of vehicle. The fact that we can [generally speaking] afford nice cars in this country is the result of an economy built on certain standards and industries, and if we do not maintain this "formula" it won't matter who makes the "better" cars, we won't be driving them here as they will be out of our reach when we are all making $15,000 a year doing menial work.

Hopefully the future will prove that all my concerns were unfounded. Right now, I don't like the way things look long term. For a change, I would be glad to be proven wrong.

KDirk

mccombie_5
12-06-05, 05:09 PM
Hehe!!!
I don't want to read any comments about my Cheveroo IROC either!
:want:

Im tempted :sneaky:

So does it come with gio-faster stripes a-la Citroen Saxo? :p:lildevil:

hardrockcamaro@mac.c
12-06-05, 05:12 PM
Yeah right, that'll be the Daewoo!

(doh!)

Kev
12-06-05, 05:12 PM
Very nice post Kdirk but please, and to everyone else, try to keep this discussion non-political.

Thanks,
Kev

mccombie_5
12-06-05, 05:15 PM
Yeah right, that'll be the Daewoo!

(doh!)

Doesnt quite sit right does it?

Vorsprung Durch IROC

Kev
12-06-05, 05:19 PM
Of course, if you two insist upon going at it we will be abiding by the rules as provided by the Marquis of Queensbury.
Let's do Old Q proud now!

mccombie_5
12-06-05, 05:20 PM
Of course, if you two insist upon going at it we will be abiding by the rules as provided by the Marquis of Queensbury.
Let's do Old Q proud now!

Ah its ok, Lizzy's cool

hardrockcamaro@mac.c
12-06-05, 05:23 PM
Must get back on topic...


I don't know what kind of press Cadillac get over the pond, but based on the odd copy of Motortrend and the like that I've seen it strikes me it's probably not far off the press they get over here (only over here we get political sarcasm thrown in, you've seen Top Gear right?).

If I just read the reviews I would never have considered my STS. It got slated. Awful interior, a ride that manages to be uncomfortable while also having poor handling.
Luckily for me I got to see a few at one of the American car shows I go to every year, I was impressed my the silence of the engine, no word of a lie, I was standing behind an STS, talking to the owner about it and asked if he'd mind firing it up for me to hear the engine. He grinned and informed the engine was running. I didn't believe him and had to put my hand in front of the tailpipe to verity it. This is a fun game I play with people not familiar with my car. His was a dark green one, with a light coloured interior that looked really classy. An interior, that if the badge on the steering were covered up, I would have guessed was from a Jaguar (say a new S-type replacement) as opposed to a German car.

Another guy who is a bit of an american car fan (after having owned cars from every country imagineable) was raving about his so I bought mine off EBay, without even a test drive. My collection of the car was the first time I had ever ridden in one, much less driven one.
I was blown away with the smoothness and I thought the ride was lovely. Far nicer than comparable cars from Europe.

After about a week I nailed it and was very impressed with the performance of the engine. Although celebrated, lets face it, the North Star is starting to get on a bit. But I was impressed. I thnk I've got used to it though as now I consider it quick but that's about it. Passengers in the car who are not used to it are left at a loss for words however. They don't expect it to be that fast.

And the final cherry on the cake came last weekend when I followed my friends brand new hot hatch (erm, sport compact?) around a roundabout matching his speed all the way under real hard cornering. That I did not expect.


Makes me wonder, do the journalists actually drive the cars, and would their opinions be the same if they didn't know what the brand was?

Kev
12-06-05, 05:24 PM
Ah its ok, Lizzy's coolOh my, is Lizzy a lady? (now please don't take that question the wrong way!)
Now don't I feel like the south end of a north bound donkey! :bang2:

Kdirk
12-06-05, 05:26 PM
Kev,

Agreed. I didn't intend for it to be political in nature, I guess after re-reading the post, it may seem that way to some. The fact that I mentioned the "G" word [and unfavorably at that] in the first sentence probably had a lot to do with that.

Really just an expression of my frustration with the way things are on many levels, and my observations on what I think is happening. No parties indicted, no R vs L, just my dissapointment at how we got to where we are and how we are going to get out of it.

Aw hell,

I'll just shut up for a while now.

KDirk

hardrockcamaro@mac.c
12-06-05, 05:30 PM
Oh my, is Lizzy a lady? (now please don't take that question the wrong way!)
Now don't I feel like the south end of a north bound donkey! :bang2:


OFF WITH HIS HEAD!!!!

:eek:

Kev
12-06-05, 05:34 PM
OFF WITH HIS HEAD!!!!

:eek:Woah!

http://shopping.animazing.com/gallery/vintage/images/queen%20of%20hearts%2040574_jpg.jpg

Can we negotiate that?

mccombie_5
12-06-05, 05:37 PM
Nah, no removal, we do need to suck some of his wise words out of him

Katshot
12-06-05, 06:39 PM
I think what this country is going through was inevitable. It's not just the auto industry, it's all over. As we as a country so out-distanced the rest of the world that our standard of living caused us to not be able to support ourselves. We have become a service industry country that farms out most everything else. Why? Because everybody thinks they are too good to do any type of manual labor. Ask a parent of a high school kid what they want their kid(s) to do after graduation and what do you hear? College, then off to some high-paying white-collar job. How many say "I hope my kid joins the military", or " I hope my kid goes to a trade school"? Not many I bet. We have a rather snobbish view of many careers. My kid be an auto mechanic? God I HOPE not. My kid learn how to build a bridge? NOT!
Manufacturing is an endangered species in this country folks and THAT is what is killing the auto industry surer than anything IMO.
It's just plain too costly to source much here anymore. It was inevitable that we would eventually price ourselves out of the game.

mccombie_5
12-06-05, 06:56 PM
I agree, my son has just started college, and my daughter will be in a few years, my older son has left University and is looking at a job starting at 30k a eyar, its what i want for my kids.......

Everyone wants the best for their kids though

Jesda
12-06-05, 07:08 PM
No different than Chevy and Ford guys feeling it's their duty to bash one another IMO.

Its quite different. I dont take it personally nor does it cloud my opinion of Toyota engineering and dependability. Luxury car rivalries tend to be of a more cerebral nature. The rivalry comes from mutual respect. Its tremendously different from Bob and Fred getting piss drunk on a bottle of Thunderbird and rasslin' in the yard.

mccombie_5
12-06-05, 07:10 PM
Its quite different. I dont take it personally nor does it cloud my opinion of Toyota engineering and dependability. Luxury car rivalries tend to be of a more cerebral nature. The rivalry comes from mutual respect. Its tremendously different from Bob and Fred getting piss drunk on a bottle of Thunderbird and rasslin' in the yard.

Yup

I take the piss out of the Lexus guys I know, and they take the piss out of me for buying the VW, BANTER is the word we need

ben72227
12-06-05, 07:16 PM
Well, do you?

'The STS-V sucks'
'The northstar is a piece of crap'
'OMG this Hyundai (http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=59551#) is AWESOME'
'GM (http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=59551#) can't make a decent car'
'OMG this Honda (http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=59551#) is AWESOME'
'GM is gonna die and Toyota (http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=59551#) is gonna pick over the carcass'

That's what I'm hearing from you all.

Do any of you actually give a shit about Cadillacs (http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=59551#)? When I showed up in 03, people here did. What the hell happened?

Yeah, where are these bad-mouthers at??? Let me at 'em!:sneaky::rolleyes:

Oh, and I guess now is just as good a time as any to let the cat out of the bag - (this is particularly for Randy and Nightwolf). The whole thing about me hating GM was...well...a ruse. A very nice practical joke if you will - that was WAY TOO EASY to pull off. I mean, here I am, owner of one of the most infamous Cadillac's ever, AND I run the Cadillac History section...yet somehow you guys actually took it hook, line, and sinker that I was a Jap fanboi...HA HA HA:sneaky::lildevil:

I~LUV~Caddys8792 was one of the few people that figured it out, but he promised to keep it on the d-low:sneaky:...HA HA HA:lildevil: You old guys - so gullible...I never in a million years thought someone would get so pissed as to start a topic on it...LOL:highfive:

Spittin Game
12-06-05, 07:40 PM
Spittin: Lighten up mate. As per your post on another thread, you can't seem to take a joke. An Infiniti fan knocking Lexus is like a Ford guy knocking Chevy. It's just a fun game that's been played for years between car enthusiasts (and enthusiasts of other products). And with regards the other post, my comment about Lexus being a Toyota with leather seats was also a joke. Look at the length of most of my posts and look at the length of that particular post I made and the fact I didn't even give an opinion on the other 2 vehicles and you should see it's a joke. It was intentional because I know there's always someone who'll take the bait.


so put a smiley next to it next time ;)

I~LUV~Caddys8792
12-06-05, 07:41 PM
Yeah, I knew about this too, and I told ben72227 to come clean...and he did

Randy_W
12-06-05, 07:47 PM
Honestly? I am here because I had some issues with my 2001 STS and came upon this forum 3 years ago... Ever since then I found out that this place has bar-none the BEST members of any forum I have ever visited anywhere. Kids, middle aged and older adults... we have it all... There is no other forum I have ever been on that has such a vast diversity of tastes and demographics. My admiration for Cadillacs is only half the reason Im here... my admiration for this boards members (even you Randy :grouphug: ), is the other half.

People on this board understand what being a car enthusiast is about more than just about anywhere else Ive ever been.

That says it all!:thumbsup:

Randy_W
12-06-05, 07:54 PM
Very nice post Kdirk but please, and to everyone else, try to keep this discussion non-political.

Thanks,
Kev

Kev, no offense to you, but there is no way to seperate the auto industry from the politics.:)

Elvis
12-06-05, 08:03 PM
There's a lot of painful truth in this:


As we as a country so out-distanced the rest of the world that our standard of living caused us to not be able to support ourselves. We have become a service industry country that farms out most everything else. Why? Because everybody thinks they are too good to do any type of manual labor. ........

We have a rather snobbish view of many careers. My kid be an auto mechanic? God I HOPE not. My kid learn how to build a bridge? NOT!

Manufacturing is an endangered species in this country folks and THAT is what is killing the auto industry surer than anything IMO.
It's just plain too costly to source much here anymore. It was inevitable that we would eventually price ourselves out of the game.

Add farming to the list.

One of the other theories on this is that in WWII we bombed our competition into oblivion. We helped re-build them, but it took over 30 years before they could really compete with us. Once they reached our level, they had momentum, but we had been a little stagnant and way too comfortable.

LaneWvr
12-06-05, 08:19 PM
Wow, I found this post late! To long only read the first and last pages. I know it was a joke, but I do have a beef with GM. Why in the hell did they get rid of all the RWDs! Thats bunk! I know they were tring to compete with the imports, but don't they relalize that alot of Americans like rwds? I like the CTS, STS, and DTS they are good cars, but I would LOVE them if they were RWD. They could have atleast one of them rwd. I have only had one fwd, it was my beater for winter, traded it for my Katana. But any car I buy cause I want it, it most likely won't be fwd. They aren't near as much fun, you have to use the handbrake to slide it around. You can't punch it out of a corner and kick out the back end. I don't do that in my Deville only cause of lack of power.:rant2:Okay I'm done now!

thu
12-06-05, 08:25 PM
The current CTS and STS are rear-drivers.

I~LUV~Caddys8792
12-06-05, 08:29 PM
Cadillac NEEDS to bring back the Fleetwood Brougham name, and attach it to their $70,000 flagship thats supposed to be coming out in a few years.

ben72227
12-06-05, 08:57 PM
One of the other theories on this is that in WWII we bombed our competition into oblivion. We helped re-build them, but it took over 30 years before they could really compete with us. Once they reached our level, they had momentum, but we had been a little stagnant and way too comfortable.

Exactly - once the fuel crisis of the 70s and the CAFE standards went into effect, all of the automakers were scrambling to make fuel-efficient cars. I remember talking with my grandmother about this, and she recalled how the American's attempts to make fuel-efficient cars were a joke - stuff like the K-cars and J-bodies. They were boxy, but more than that, they were just UGLY, and it was such a let down, since 10 years previous, they had been making such beatiful cars, like the Mustangs, the Cudas, etc.

Plus, add on to that, you had Honda finally able to break through, even though people made jokes about how they were like Yugos, and little tin-cans, etc. Well, once the Accord came out, it pretty much changed everything. I mean, people got these Accords, that lasted 200,000 miles and never had to go to the shop, and then you had your American cars, like the Pintos and Novas, that were just POS, with exploding gas tanks:lildevil:.

Once the word of mouth got around how much superior these cars were to their American counter-parts and people started to buy them, there wasn't much to stop them. Sure, they tried imposes tariffs at first, but Honda got right around that by building the Ohio plants, and thus became a "domestic", rather than an import.

I think the final death blow was when Acura/Lexus came out. I mean, Honda had the balls to challenge Cadillac/Lincoln, they were confident of themselves...and look at them now...:rolleyes:

Another major factor was just that GM never considered HOnda to be competition until it was way too late; by the time they FINALLY figured out that people wanted these reliable, affordable, and fun to drive cars, the Camry was already number one in the country. I mean, GM used to always be number one with the Chevys, but they just let their guard down, they were cocky, complacent, and just LAZY, they thought they couldn't be touched, and now they're on the verge of bankruptcy...It's a shame really...:(

I~LUV~Caddys8792
12-06-05, 09:21 PM
wow this guy knows his history!

ben72227
12-06-05, 09:29 PM
wow this guy knows his history!

Which is why I'm the official historian around here;). Check out the Cadillac history thread in General Discussion if you haven't already. I added a new history topic today, that you all should find very interesting...;)

HotRodSaint
12-06-05, 10:34 PM
http://jarrod.miller.idx.com.au/macros/fwd_sucks.jpg
Hehe, sorry I've been waiting to use that!! :lildevil:

Kev
12-06-05, 10:36 PM
Well, some of them are cool though

http://www.dynodeals.com/images/Misc/big_wh1.jpg

HotRodSaint
12-06-05, 10:44 PM
Well, some of them are cool though

Big Wheels were fun!! :thumbsup:

Kev
12-06-05, 10:51 PM
When I was a kid, my buddies and I would take trikes and reverse the frame which gave us a "Chopper Trike" we'd ride them around thinking we were all that. Well, we saw some guy kinda stalking us, checking out our trikes and we thought he was some sort of pervert. Within 6 mos this new bike came out, "Big Wheels"! Coincidence? Probably, the guy we saw was probably just stalking us as we assumed but, maybe, just maybe, he stole our idea and made some money off of it........ ??????? :hmm:

Hmmmmm.........

HotRodSaint
12-06-05, 11:01 PM
When I was a kid, my buddies and I would take trikes and reverse the frame which gave us a "Chopper Trike" we'd ride them around thinking we were all that.

We did the samething!! :p

Kev
12-06-05, 11:05 PM
Did you grow up in So Cal?

powerglide
12-07-05, 02:17 AM
All I want to know is, why is the word shit not being sensored???

davesdeville
12-07-05, 02:58 AM
You didn't here any of that shit from me, I'll tell you that much. Whoever said the STS-V sucks should be banned. They just started production and people here are already bad mouthing it...WTF. Show me this thread where it is mentioned so I can spout hostile remarks at this person! I demand justice.

Last time I checked, that got you promoted to MODERATOR of the STS-V section rather than banned, how's that for justice?

As for the thread this is mentioned... check every thread in the STS-V section that has play or any CTS-V guy save Vrocks.


As for members coming here to bash Cadillacs and GM cars, who cares?
What kind of retard is going to spend money on a car and then come here to confess to the world how stupid they think they are? I mean THEY bought the car and THEY are the ones complaining about it. An intelligent person would sell the car, buy what they want and go to that forum and talk about how much they love their non-GM car. Wouldn't they?

They don't own Cadillacs, that would be 'beneith them' in their minds.


And being brand loyal is stupid, unless Caddilac is paying you to use their cars then theirs no reason you cant like or support a different maker.
I don't care too much about Brand loyalty. I almost bought a Grand Marquis, Mark VIII, Caprice, and other non-Cadillacs before I found my ETC.
It's deliberate hating/bashing of Cadillac that has me pissed. Call it anti-brand loyalty.

Hehe, sorry I've been waiting to use that!!
:lildevil:
Sal Collaziano wouldn't be too happy with you.
So you hate the vast majority of Cadillacs made. You've been a major part of if you haven't been the creator of a giant war that split the forum and caused everyone involved undue stress. And you're still here.
Stick to your RWD section, don't come out, don't bash the Cadillacs you don't like, and don't start more wars.

All I want to know is, why is the word shit not being sensored???
Because there are no 3 year olds on this site who might have easily offended parents?

Oh, and I guess now is just as good a time as any to let the cat out of the bag - (this is particularly for Randy and Nightwolf). The whole thing about me hating GM was...well...a ruse. A very nice practical joke if you will - that was WAY TOO EASY to pull off. I mean, here I am, owner of one of the most infamous Cadillac's ever, AND I run the Cadillac History section...yet somehow you guys actually took it hook, line, and sinker that I was a Jap fanboi...HA HA HA:sneaky::lildevil:
I~LUV~Caddys8792 was one of the few people that figured it out, but he promised to keep it on the d-low:sneaky:...HA HA HA:lildevil: You old guys - so gullible...I never in a million years thought someone would get so pissed as to start a topic on it...LOL:highfive:
I just thought you were a frickin weirdo. A guy who drives a Cadillac, calls his car a POS, does the cadillac history thing, bashes every domestic at every opportunity. There was a point a couple months ago when I decided you were too much of a freak and tried to ignore everything you said.
That said, I didn't make this topic about you. One person on here solely for the purpose of bashing Cadillac isn't a big deal, back when I really enjoyed coming here we had a troll every now and then, been there & done that.
The big deal is when many regular members and mods for that matter are bashing Cadillac. And quite frankly when you bash Cadillac, you bash Cadillac owners, if not Cadillac Owners itself.

My admiration for Cadillacs is only half the reason Im here...
Excuse me? What admiration for Cadillac are you talking about?
You're a German car guy, fine. The STS-V sucks the M5s holy testicles. There's your dislike for Cadillac, where's this admiration?

I am NOT a fan of GM and I never will be, they make several products that are anywhere from subpar to completely unacceptable in the market they serve.
As far as Cadillac goes, there are a select number of Cadillacs throughout the years that have always appealed to me regardless of what the rest of the brand is doing... classic Eldorados, 92-03 STS, current STS, CTS-V, Escalade etc. But thats as far as my loyalties to Cadillac go. I want to see Cadillac succeed but until things are at the level that I expect in some of the other brands I shop I will make no apologies for not owning one and not necessarily painting a pretty picture about the brand as a whole.
Oh, suddenly someone calls you and your likes out, and there's the admiration for Cadillac, we found it! :rolleyes:

Its quite different. I dont take it personally nor does it cloud my opinion of Toyota engineering and dependability. Luxury car rivalries tend to be of a more cerebral nature. The rivalry comes from mutual respect. Its tremendously different from Bob and Fred getting piss drunk on a bottle of Thunderbird and rasslin' in the yard.
This is exactly what I'm talking about. An import lover who's rarely seen making a post about Cadillacs at all, and even less common is a pro Cadillac post. And he's saying Ford and Chevy owners are drunk hicks.
See Ben, THIS is why I started this thread.

powerglide
12-07-05, 03:07 AM
Because there are no 3 year olds on this site who might have easily offended parents?


Since when??

davesdeville
12-07-05, 03:17 AM
Big ups, mad props, much respect to danbuc, Rick, Randy_W, boombotz, Stoney, Robert, hardrockcamero, Mac, "Chadillac," Kev, iametarq, thu (especially for posting Wagoner's article,) DBA-One, and KDirk. For being a Cadillac fan on a Cadillac forum. I'm glad you're the majority still, just like GM is still the largest automaker in the world, but just like real life the import people are coming.

...and maybe even you, Kevin. Nah, wait, you're the one who can't shut up about how big a piece of crap the Northstar is.


Man it feels good to finally get this off my chest! I guess the fact that I can only rarely make it here anymore made it so that I didn't care if I get virtually crucified calling out the haters.

powerglide
12-07-05, 03:41 AM
You havin a bad day there dave?

Jesda
12-07-05, 05:26 AM
Seems like this forum can't handle a debate without resorting to knife fights.

Playdrv4me
12-07-05, 05:58 AM
Big ups, mad props, much respect to danbuc, Rick, Randy_W, boombotz, Stoney, Robert, hardrockcamero, Mac, "Chadillac," Kev, iametarq, thu (especially for posting Wagoner's article,) DBA-One, and KDirk. For being a Cadillac fan on a Cadillac forum. I'm glad you're the majority still, just like GM is still the largest automaker in the world, but just like real life the import people are coming.

...and maybe even you, Kevin. Nah, wait, you're the one who can't shut up about how big a piece of crap the Northstar is.


Man it feels good to finally get this off my chest! I guess the fact that I can only rarely make it here anymore made it so that I didn't care if I get virtually crucified calling out the haters.


Dont know what your deal is... but we seem to have to deal with whatever it is on a pretty regular basis... and it's getting old hat. SSDD as they say...

The STS-V forum isnt quite hopping right now, and as best I can tell, its doing just fine. The fact that there are already some early reports coming in from verifiable members on this site (not just some off the wall "biased" article etc., and in fact a CTS-V owner) that the car didnt quite measure up to its rivals, only serves to validate any less than glowing comments I may have ever made about the car. In fact, my most recent analysis actually gave the car a bit of a nod for doing what it DOES do well. But I said from the beginning it probably would NOT take the reigns from the CTS-V when it came to brass tacks, and most likely not the M5 and E55 either. Bottom line is, I know which cars lead the segment, the rest will be measured using that as a yardstick. That sub-forum needed moderation and I stepped up to take care of it as I had a genuine interest in finding out how much of the car was hype, and how much would translate into real performance. If you feel Im doing such a terrible job, as this seems to be a squarely directed personal attack against me, you may feel free to take it up with the administration.

Otherwise... Door's that way... >>>> :yawn:

BTW... Not that I care what comments you make about myself, but Im sure other members dont appreciate sh*t being hurdled their way. I dont know what element of control you lack that prevents you from being able to make your point without resorting to that kind of behavior, but try to keep it civil because this thread is teetering on the edge of its existence.