: 4.6 northstar / engine, Trans swap ?



rdmay
12-15-03, 12:06 AM
I have 1994 Eldorado with 4.6 Northstar engine. The engine started leaking oil at about 90,000 miles & Chevrolet garage wants $1200 to repair. This is not an option for me. I know a gentleman that has a motor & trans out of 2003 Sedan Deville ( 4.6 ) that I can purchase. Will the motors, transmissions and computer exchange without major modifications. I will be spending much more on the Eldorado than I can ever recoop but I like the car and cannot afford to by a comparable new car. the VIN # for the 1994 Eldorado is 1G6EL12Y6RU601122.... then VIN from the 2003 Sedan Deville 1G6KD54Y03U106510. Any help you can give me would be greatly appreciated. Time is of kickin me!:bighead:

rdm

maydog
12-15-03, 01:01 AM
I believe the 03 motor uses different cam and crank sensors (hall effect) vs the 94 reluctor. Physically everything will bolt up but the sensor systems are incompatible. There may be a lot of other changes too.

rdmay
12-15-03, 02:49 AM
I will be buying the computer, wiring..... everything under the hood. I am unfamiliar with the sensors that you are speaking of. The last ( real ) mechanic work that I performed was when 202 heads and a rock-crusher trans were more sought after than gold. The 2003 is from a wrecked car & as I said I will have everything under the hood. Is this worth persuing?

Thanks for your help
rdm


I believe the 03 motor uses different cam and crank sensors (hall effect) vs the 94 reluctor. Physically everything will bolt up but the sensor systems are incompatible. There may be a lot of other changes too.

Cortezc
01-08-04, 07:45 PM
I am curious to know if you were able to make the 2003 engine work for you? If you did not and you still have access to it I would certainly be interested.
My name is Cortez Cate, cecate@pacbell.net Ph. 805-481-7550
Thanks,


I have 1994 Eldorado with 4.6 Northstar engine. The engine started leaking oil at about 90,000 miles & Chevrolet garage wants $1200 to repair. This is not an option for me. I know a gentleman that has a motor & trans out of 2003 Sedan Deville ( 4.6 ) that I can purchase. Will the motors, transmissions and computer exchange without major modifications. I will be spending much more on the Eldorado than I can ever recoop but I like the car and cannot afford to by a comparable new car. the VIN # for the 1994 Eldorado is 1G6EL12Y6RU601122.... then VIN from the 2003 Sedan Deville 1G6KD54Y03U106510. Any help you can give me would be greatly appreciated. Time is of kickin me!:bighead:

rdm

ellisss
01-09-04, 01:16 AM
I believe the 03 motor uses different cam and crank sensors (hall effect) vs the 94 reluctor.
Nope.

1994 vs. 2003 Northstar would be a difficult swap. Mounts are different. Dimensions are different. Software and circutry are different.

The cam sensor is the same. It's not hall effect on any Northstar.

The crank sensors (yes, there are two) are the same, if I recall correctly... but that doesn't matter as both the 'a' and 'b' crank sensors have been updated for all years.

--
Ellisss.

gorky
01-12-04, 11:15 PM
Anyone. . . HELP. . . .

I am swapping something alittle bit more do-able but have run into problems.

I was told that a 1997 northstar was the same as 1994 northstar with the exception of the intake system, placement of one of the sensors (but that harness would still stretch over to it.

The garage that is performing the swap just informed me that there is a gap in the intake gasket when they tried to move the 1994 intake system onto the 1997 motor. They think the EGR might have been changed between those years contrary to what I had been told.

I will go over to take some digital pictures in the morning to understand exactyly what they meant by a gap, but in the mean time, I was hoping that someone on the board might have experience between these to engine years and could suggest a remedy to my predicament.

BeelzeBob
01-12-04, 11:38 PM
Anyone. . . HELP. . . .

I am swapping something alittle bit more do-able but have run into problems.

I was told that a 1997 northstar was the same as 1994 northstar with the exception of the intake system, placement of one of the sensors (but that harness would still stretch over to it.

The garage that is performing the swap just informed me that there is a gap in the intake gasket when they tried to move the 1994 intake system onto the 1997 motor. They think the EGR might have been changed between those years contrary to what I had been told.

I will go over to take some digital pictures in the morning to understand exactyly what they meant by a gap, but in the mean time, I was hoping that someone on the board might have experience between these to engine years and could suggest a remedy to my predicament.

Dude, you got a lot of bum info. You cannot put the 94 intake system onto the 97 cylinder heads. The EGR systems between the 93/94 engines and the 95/99 engines are TOTALLY different and not interchangeable or combinable. The cylinder heads on the 93/94 form an integral part of the EGR delivery system and cannot work with the later intake manifold nor can the earlier intake be put onto the later heads. There is no provisions for the EGR to get to the phenolic spacer plates used ont eh 93/94.

There is a way out , however. And, it is probably easier than you think. Use the complete 97 engine. 97 intake manifold, 97 EGR valve and delivery pipe to the intake manifold, etc. You will have to have the 97 intake and the 97 fuel rail. Take the 94 intake manifold apart (take the top cover off) and scavenge the injector wiring harnes from inside the intake and put it onto the 97 injectors. The 94 electronics will not know the difference. There is a fialr amount of wiring to cobble and splice but basically everything should hook up and fit.

The ONLY other option is to put the cylinder heads from your 94 onto the 97 short block and THEN the 94 phenolic spacer plates and 94 intake system and EGR system will work. You will also have to retrofit the 94 water crossover from the 94 engine (water pump, water passages, EGR mounting and passages) to make this work.

Using the complete 97 intake and such is the best way to go by far.

BeelzeBob
01-12-04, 11:51 PM
I have 1994 Eldorado with 4.6 Northstar engine. The engine started leaking oil at about 90,000 miles & Chevrolet garage wants $1200 to repair. This is not an option for me. I know a gentleman that has a motor & trans out of 2003 Sedan Deville ( 4.6 ) that I can purchase. Will the motors, transmissions and computer exchange without major modifications. I will be spending much more on the Eldorado than I can ever recoop but I like the car and cannot afford to by a comparable new car. the VIN # for the 1994 Eldorado is 1G6EL12Y6RU601122.... then VIN from the 2003 Sedan Deville 1G6KD54Y03U106510. Any help you can give me would be greatly appreciated. Time is of kickin me!:bighead:

In a nut shell forget this idea. It is technically possible...but highly unlikely that the car would ever run again.

The 2003 Northstar engine and electronics is SIGNIFICANTLY different from the 94 eldo system. Even with a complete rewiring of the car this would be a nightmare to make work. The 2003 computer is a completely different animal...different soft ware, calibration, manufacturere (siemens controller), etc compared to the 94. Thinking of trying to make that work makes me shudder and I help develop the packages.

Physically, the 2003 engine is very different. It has roller cam followers, coil at plug ignition different heads, intake, etc. It is virtually an all new engine.

Contrary to info posted above the cam sensor is completely different in operation on the 2003 and 94. The cam sensor provides real time cam postion to the PCM on the 2003 via a formed track on the cam sprocket where-as the 94 sensor just provides a once-per-two-rev blip to the PCM. Not compatible.

Also, contrary to info above, the crank sensors are also completely different. They are not even in the same location on the 2000 and later engines compared to the earlier ones. The electronics of the sensors are completely different, the crank reluctor ring has a different pattern, etc. The 2003 has coil at plug ignition where the PCM activates each coil individually. The 94 uses a coil pack direct fire ignition where the crank sensors provide info to the coil pack direct. There is virtually nothing common in the crank or cam sensors between the two.

Putting the 2003 PCM into the 94 sounds plausible but be aware that the PCM MUST talk to the other systems in the car via the serial data link...and the comm systems and protocal in those two cars is completely different. If you even took the complete wiring harness, PCM, etc. from the 2003 and tried to make it run on the bench it would not as the PCM would lack critical "car" info from the serial data link that didn't exist.

To save yourself a lot of time and money and aggravation forget the idea of the 2003 engine in a 94 Eldo. If you fancy that you need the new engine, buy a new 94 Northstar from service parts. That would be less expensive in the long run than trying to make a free 2003 run in a 94 eldo. Trust me. Other wise, the 2003 engine really offers no advantage to you. It is the same power and drives the same so it would be transparent to you driving the car. You would be better off with the 94.

BeelzeBob
01-13-04, 12:01 AM
I have 1994 Eldorado with 4.6 Northstar engine. The engine started leaking oil at about 90,000 miles & Chevrolet garage wants $1200 to repair. This is not an option for me.

rdm


Does the oil leak reach the ground? In other words when does it leak and how? Drips on the ground? Only when running?? How did you find out about the leak? Drips on the ground or someone showed you the greasy underside and told you about it.


Be aware that many many incidental oil leaks are blamed on the Norhstar case half leaks...that is probably what the Chevy dealer wants 1200 to repair.

BTW...why would you have a chevy mechanic unfamiliar with a Northstar repair and oil leak....??? Why not the Cad dealer.??

Was the leak thoroughly diagnosed so that the mechanic can show you the leak source postively. Be aware that the Northstar case half leaks, while annoying, are generally pretty benign and only cause the lower end of the engine to ge dirty. They don't ususally leak onto the ground. The oil cooler lines, oil cooler line fittings, oil filter adapte seals, etc....can all cause oil leaks and commonly are the problem at high miles and 10 years. Make positively sure what the leak is. Oil filter adapter seals, cooler line fittings, oil cooler lines, etc...all can be repaired very easily and inexpensively. To identify the leak the dealer can put the flourescent dye in the oil and see the leak source almost immediately with a black light. Demand that before accepting that it is the case half leak.

Personally, I would think you were nuts to spend the time and money to pull the engine for a case half leak on a 94 model car. It would cost more than the car is likely worth and expose you to a variety of risks taking apart a ten year old engine and car. You can buy a LOT of oil for what it would cost and eliminate the risk. Put a modesty pad where you park if it is dripping on the ground and forget about it. If it truely is a case half leak it will likely never get any worse and poses no imminent walk home failure. Just a nuisance.

gorky
01-13-04, 01:48 AM
Dude, you got a lot of bum info. You cannot put the 94 intake system onto the 97 cylinder heads. The EGR systems between the 93/94 engines and the 95/99 engines are TOTALLY different and not interchangeable or combinable. The cylinder heads on the 93/94 form an integral part of the EGR delivery system and cannot work with the later intake manifold nor can the earlier intake be put onto the later heads. There is no provisions for the EGR to get to the phenolic spacer plates used ont eh 93/94.

There is a way out , however. And, it is probably easier than you think. Use the complete 97 engine. 97 intake manifold, 97 EGR valve and delivery pipe to the intake manifold, etc. You will have to have the 97 intake and the 97 fuel rail. Take the 94 intake manifold apart (take the top cover off) and scavenge the injector wiring harnes from inside the intake and put it onto the 97 injectors. The 94 electronics will not know the difference. There is a fialr amount of wiring to cobble and splice but basically everything should hook up and fit.

The ONLY other option is to put the cylinder heads from your 94 onto the 97 short block and THEN the 94 phenolic spacer plates and 94 intake system and EGR system will work. You will also have to retrofit the 94 water crossover from the 94 engine (water pump, water passages, EGR mounting and passages) to make this work.

Using the complete 97 intake and such is the best way to go by far.

Thanks for the help.

It does sound like the complete '97 intake is the best way to go. Do you know if the '95 intake is the same as the '97? and do you know if I have to splice anything other then the injector wiring? For instance, is there any sensor wiring in that area?

Thanks again, at least now I have a path forward. I'll start searching the junkyards tomorrow as I'm sure the garage is not happy to have my car taking up a lift.

BeelzeBob
01-13-04, 01:19 PM
Thanks for the help.

It does sound like the complete '97 intake is the best way to go. Do you know if the '95 intake is the same as the '97? and do you know if I have to splice anything other then the injector wiring? For instance, is there any sensor wiring in that area?

Thanks again, at least now I have a path forward. I'll start searching the junkyards tomorrow as I'm sure the garage is not happy to have my car taking up a lift.
I always hate questions like that as there is usually some little detail that proves me wrong....but.....as far as I can remember the single piece plastic intake is the exact same part from 1995 thru 1999. If there are differences they are minor and should be something that you can work around.

I assume that you do not have the intake and such for the 97 engine you are using....??? you are going to need a lot more than just the "intake"... You need the entire intake manifold, injectors, fuel rail, throttle body, EGR pipes, etc....lots of PCV hoses and such... You really want to find a 95 and get the complete "top end" off of it. A 96-99 intake and such will fit but the throttle body is set up for a MAF and IAC....you need a speed density throttle body setup with idle speed control for your car. Even the 97 that you have had IAC (idle air control) and your car and electronics are expecting an idle speed control (ISC) sytem....

Interchanging the various model year systems is fraught with detail problems....

gorky
01-13-04, 03:40 PM
I always hate questions like that as there is usually some little detail that proves me wrong....but.....as far as I can remember the single piece plastic intake is the exact same part from 1995 thru 1999. If there are differences they are minor and should be something that you can work around.

I assume that you do not have the intake and such for the 97 engine you are using....??? you are going to need a lot more than just the "intake"... You need the entire intake manifold, injectors, fuel rail, throttle body, EGR pipes, etc....lots of PCV hoses and such... You really want to find a 95 and get the complete "top end" off of it. A 96-99 intake and such will fit but the throttle body is set up for a MAF and IAC....you need a speed density throttle body setup with idle speed control for your car. Even the 97 that you have had IAC (idle air control) and your car and electronics are expecting an idle speed control (ISC) sytem....

Interchanging the various model year systems is fraught with detail problems....

Thanks again, I have the mechanic looking for the complete '95 top end.

Can I take the heads off of my '94 engine and put it on the '97 engine? Then re-use all of my intake/top end from the '94?

I hate to bother you with all these questions, but you seem to be more knowledgeable than even my local cadillac dealership.

Thanks again in advance,
gorky

BeelzeBob
01-15-04, 12:33 PM
Yes, you could just use the 97 short block and put the 94 heads on it along with the complete accessory dress for the 94 including the water pump housing/water crossove casting, intake manifold, etc.... That would be the "cleanest" way to go as the engine would, in essence, be a 94 with the head change.

gorky
01-17-04, 10:32 PM
Yes, you could just use the 97 short block and put the 94 heads on it along with the complete accessory dress for the 94 including the water pump housing/water crossove casting, intake manifold, etc.... That would be the "cleanest" way to go as the engine would, in essence, be a 94 with the head change.

My mechanic confirmed that the labor to retro the heads would exceed the cost of the '95 "top end". Both exceed my meager budget (even with salvaged parts), so I will probably have to ask the mechanic to button it up as is and finish the rest myself, picking up the parts as my budget permits.

i bought the service manuals for my '94 cadillac (that's another story at $150 thru the dealer ) but they said there was nothing available that contained the part numbers across model years. My other car had a CD for the factory technicians that could crossreference a given part number across all models and years. i haven't seen anything like that for cadillacs. If anyone knows is such a thing exists, can they post what the title or name of this CD would be

Consequently, would anyone with access to such a parts list confirm that the following items are what is needed for the complete '95 "top end"? I got these from a sympathetic dealer.

intake manifold (12497989)
injectors (17091474)
fuel rail (17113218)
throttle body (17095168)
egr pipe (3538282)
egr pipe (12553582)
pcv hose (3539219)
upper sight shield (12555611)
injector harness (12133790)
pcv tube (3543816)

Most of the parts that I see make sense, but I don't see any sensors. Does that mean that ALL of my 94 sensors can be used w/o modification?

gorky
01-17-04, 10:43 PM
I have 1994 Eldorado with 4.6 Northstar engine. The engine started leaking oil at about 90,000 miles & Chevrolet garage wants $1200 to repair. This is not an option for me. I know a gentleman that has a motor & trans out of 2003 Sedan Deville ( 4.6 ) that I can purchase. Will the motors, transmissions and computer exchange without major modifications. I will be spending much more on the Eldorado than I can ever recoop but I like the car and cannot afford to by a comparable new car. the VIN # for the 1994 Eldorado is 1G6EL12Y6RU601122.... then VIN from the 2003 Sedan Deville 1G6KD54Y03U106510. Any help you can give me would be greatly appreciated. Time is of kickin me!:bighead:

rdm



BTW, given my ordeal (other comments this thread), I'd pay the $1200 and consider yourself lucky.

My engine replacement is costing over $3000 so far (other comments this thread), and that doesnt include any of the costs associated with the intake problems. About half of that is labor by the mechanic. The one bright side, even the mechanic says I got a really clean used engine.