: Is it normal for...



MacKiNBacK
12-01-05, 11:28 AM
the half seal (or any part of the engine) to leak oil during cold conditions? i'm just wondering because I have my car at the shop (<sighs> at Goodyear again), for an oil leak being called mis-diagnosed. Originally my dealer said 1/2 seal was leaking... Goodyear said it was the oil pan seal. So they replaced it. A few days ago I realized it was still leaking. Took it to another dealer for a list of things wrong (steering pump, noisy water pump pully, noisy blower motor and oil leak). But my warranty doesnt cover noisy stuff. But steering shaft gear I believe was leaking and something about low pressure hose leaking too (quoted at $600 out of pocket to have them do it). But warranty company said to bring it back to goodyear because it was mis-diagnosed for the oil leak. So I figured id save some cash having them do the steering also. Just been one headache after another with this car. So any help would be appreciated.

Thanks
MacK

Eldyfig
12-01-05, 01:03 PM
I wouldn't say misdiagnosed. I would say not fully diagnosed. Your oil pan probably was leaking and that shop was thinking that was the only leak. I imagine it's cheaper to do the oil pan than the half seal. So you started in the right direction. You got one of your leaks fixed. Now on to the next. Just how bad is the leak?

Power steering pumps making noise in these North*s is something I have read about more than a few times here. Mine makes a bit of noise itself periodically. Nothing too bad and the fix doesn't seem to hard.

The water pump pulley I would get taken care of though. We don't want that siezing up on us.

mcowden
12-01-05, 03:01 PM
Power steering pumps making noise in these North*s is something I have read about more than a few times here. Mine makes a bit of noise itself periodically. Nothing too bad and the fix doesn't seem to hard.

I remember hearing about whining power steering pumps on GM cars when I was a kid. I have always heard it called GM's "morning sickness" sound. It has been an issue for a long time and it is not unique to Cadillac. My '86 Buick Regal did it and so did my '84 Skyhawk and my '86 Olds Toronado. The '86 Mercury Cougar did not, and neither did the '96 Honda Civic. It doesn't indicate a problem unless the fluid is low or there is a leak or some other symptom. Once the pump and fluid warm up, the sound either quiets down significantly or it goes away completely.

Krashed989
12-01-05, 03:28 PM
If you are using multi grade oil it is actually more apt to leak during cold conditions because the viscosity is lower to help it get flowing more easily, whether it be out a leaky gasket or to the right places. Multi grade oil is designed for seasonal climates. Without it in the winter, your engine woud experience more wear on start ups.

I put straight 40 weight oil in mine to slow my leak beacause I don't live in a seasonal climate, so I don't need the viscosity to change.

MacKiNBacK
12-01-05, 03:57 PM
Well it all started with the cadillac dealer telling me there was a leak on the 1/2 seal. The warranty company wanted me to go for a 2nd opinion (because of all the things I brought it in for) so I thought Goodyear might be good since my dad it somewhat friends with the manager. They stated oil pan gasket. They fixed it. I noticed it was still leaking. Brought it back to Goodyear and he said it was now the 1/2 case and that it was probably leaking due to the colder weather we've been having. Brought it to Motor Werks (grandpa's friends with), and they also said 1/2 case but didnt say anything about it being caused by weather. But the warranty company wanted me to bring it back to Goodyear under the impression it was mis-diagnosed. I havent driven it enough to see the full effect of the leak. Before it was close to 2 quarts between oil changes. I recently put in 1/2 quart and ive had the car back for maybe 1 and 1/2 months. As far as the steering pump... Cadillac dealer originally said the pump was bad. Motor Werks said some gear and low pressure hose were leaking. It wasent noisy, but it seems like steering in parking lots it hard and sometimes catchy. It's hard like it is when im at highway speeds and the sports suspension/steering kick in. The water pump pulley is only noisy when its cold, warm its fine. But they wont cover it. Maybe its something I could do with my service manuals in my garage? Thanks for the input.

MacK

Krashed989
12-01-05, 04:30 PM
...I havent driven it enough to see the full effect of the leak...

Actually, if you're using multi grade oil, the oil will thicken a little as the engine gets hotter and so it may slow the leak when you're driving it. You might have a better chance of seeing the full effect of the leak with the engine sitting still in the driveway.

MacKiNBacK
12-01-05, 05:20 PM
I can look under the car now and see a few drips ready to fall. As far as looking on the driveway.. its hard to tell. My brothers car isnt exactly the best running car. So there's quite a bit of oil on the driveway. But my car is currently at Goodyear.. Who knows when their actually going to look at it. I just have a feeling the managers going to try conning his way out of the repair out of their pocket by saying its somewhat comon or something like that. I just want to get this done and over with. Very tired of the problems. Hell Im still having problems with my trans after it was overhauled... Now im being told a speed sensor is probably going and will have to leave it with them whenever I get it back from Goodyear.

MacK

Krashed989
12-01-05, 05:45 PM
This is why I love being able to diagnose problems myself. That way I feel better about the repair, because I knew about the problem. If I take it to a shop and they tell me something new is wrong, I tell them to just leave it alone because I like to see it for myself to make sure there is a problem. It's not that hard to tell if they're trying to con you after that, just make sure the bolts and connections are tight. Don't neglect your FSM's either. Before I take my car to another shop (shops other than the one I work at), I try to find as many problems as I can with the car, that way I know when they are trying something on me.

mcowden
12-01-05, 05:53 PM
Actually, if you're using multi grade oil, the oil will thicken a little as the engine gets hotter and so it may slow the leak when you're driving it. You might have a better chance of seeing the full effect of the leak with the engine sitting still in the driveway.

Krashed989, oil doesn't thicken as it gets hotter, whether it's single grade or multi-grade. The viscosity numbers like 10W-30 mean that the oil has the viscosity of a 10 weight oil at a low temperature and it will have the viscosity of a 30 weight oil at a high temperature. The difference is that the viscosity of an SAE 30 weight oil would be higher (thicker oil) at 0 degrees F than a 10W-30 oil at 0 degrees F, but once you get them both up to 100 degrees F, they are both 30 weight oils. That's why the multi-vis oils were created. They flow better at low temperatures than straight-weight oils and reduce cold start-up wear. The "W" in 10W-30 stands for Winter.

As temperatures go down, seals and other parts shrink, potentially opening up gaps that lead to leaks. I think that's a more likely explanation than oil weights.

Eldyfig
12-01-05, 07:39 PM
I used 20W50 in my Olds 455 to keep it quiet.

Krashed989
12-01-05, 07:42 PM
Mcowden, could you eleborate more please, because it sounded like you contradicted yourself. Isn't viscosity a synonym of thickness? or are you talking about density wise? Also, if they flow better at start up, wouldn't it be plausable that they would flow better out a leak too?

I am by no means blaming the leak on the oil. I'm just saying that if there is multi grade oil in there it may leak more when it is cold rather than when it is hot. Isn't that right? Please, by all means, correct me.

MacKiNBacK
12-02-05, 12:22 AM
So I shouldnt have any leak right? Of course I cant cough up $1500 if in the end everyone (warranty company and Goodyear) believe it's something normal and replacing the seals wouldnt really fix. Then if not, I will end up being charged the full labor for the steering fix. And instead of throwing up a new thread, I have another question. During de-acceleration.. I notice at times.. Seems to be at a down-shift, that my rpm's will bounce pretty low.. Sometimes hitting 500rmp and the lights flicker until it bounces back to normal. It's a pretty big bounce too. Mentioned it to the cadi dealer and he said he wouldnt be able to do anything about it. And clues?

Thanks
MacK

Krashed989
12-02-05, 01:10 AM
No, I didn't say it was normal. You have a leak. My point was that it would be more noticable in the cold than in the heat. Leaks are not normal.

mcowden
12-02-05, 02:58 PM
Mcowden, could you eleborate more please, because it sounded like you contradicted yourself. Isn't viscosity a synonym of thickness? or are you talking about density wise? Also, if they flow better at start up, wouldn't it be plausable that they would flow better out a leak too?

I am by no means blaming the leak on the oil. I'm just saying that if there is multi grade oil in there it may leak more when it is cold rather than when it is hot. Isn't that right? Please, by all means, correct me.

Krashed989 - I think my post came across more like criticism than I had originally intended. I'm not bashing you. I'm just pointing out that oil doesn't thicken as it gets hotter, and opining that it's probably more likely that the cold temperatures have shrunk some seals and widened some gaps, and that's what's causing the leaks to worsen. If it was summertime, it would leak less even though the oil would be thinner.

As temperature goes up, the oil flows better because it thins out. When it gets cold outside, oil doesn't flow very well, and that's why multigrade oils were created. A single-grade oil like SAE 30 would flow at -10*F, but a 5W-30 would flow quite a bit better at the same temperature. Once you get them up to operating temperature, they flow the same.

I think I'm just confusing the issue anyway, so I'm going to shut up now.

Krashed989
12-02-05, 05:03 PM
Krashed989 - I think my post came across more like criticism than I had originally intended. I'm not bashing you. I'm just pointing out that oil doesn't thicken as it gets hotter, and opining that it's probably more likely that the cold temperatures have shrunk some seals and widened some gaps, and that's what's causing the leaks to worsen. If it was summertime, it would leak less even though the oil would be thinner.

As temperature goes up, the oil flows better because it thins out. When it gets cold outside, oil doesn't flow very well, and that's why multigrade oils were created. A single-grade oil like SAE 30 would flow at -10*F, but a 5W-30 would flow quite a bit better at the same temperature. Once you get them up to operating temperature, they flow the same.

I think I'm just confusing the issue anyway, so I'm going to shut up now.

I didn't really take it as criticism, I just figured you probably know more about oil than me. So I was trying to learn from it. Rereading mine, I guess some of it could have come off as sarcasm, but that was not intended. I am only 18, and I don't know everything...yet... lol

I think I get what you're saying though, now. So it basically expands at the same rate as the temperature tries to compress and thicken it, and that cancelles out so it stays the same thickness . Is that right?

mcowden
12-02-05, 05:46 PM
I think I get what you're saying though, now. So it basically expands at the same rate as the temperature tries to compress and thicken it, and that cancelles out so it stays the same thickness . Is that right?

Think about it this way: At 212*F, an SAE 30 and a 5W-30 (theoretically) flow the same, say hypothetically that an oil pump could pump the same amount of each one. Also at 212*F, an SAE 5 would be a little thinner than the other two and a little easier to pump.

Drop the temperature down to 0*F and things are a little different. At 0*F, the 5W-30 and the SAE 5 would (theoretically) flow the same, and the SAE 30 would be a little thicker and harder to pump.

So, at 0*F (Winter temperatures), a 5W-30 flows like a 5 weight oil and an SAE 30 still flows like a 30 weight oil, so that is to say the 5W-30 would flow better than the SAE 30 at 0*F. However, neither one would flow as easily as they would at operating temperature. They thicken up as they get colder. As the temperature goes down from 212*F to 0*F, the SAE 30 thickens up faster than the 5W-30 does.

I could be wrong, but that's my understanding of it.

Eldyfig
12-02-05, 08:58 PM
That was the best explanation of it so far. I have been following along and was about to get a bit confused there for a while.

MacKiNBacK
12-03-05, 03:09 AM
Well my repair was denied.. They'd rather have Goodyear keep track of how much oil is leaking for an oil change (which would put me over 100,000). But it appears doing the 1/2 case seals it a biigg job. Something Goodyear said they wouldnt be able to do. So id end up at the dealer paying $35 per hour out of my own pocket. Steering is the same.. it's a 'small' leak. So all in all.. Im checking around for a new car. Tis a shame.. I was hoping to be able to keep this car for a few years.

MacK