: 98' Deville Waterpump



GreenMachine
11-30-05, 07:34 PM
Well been losing coolant, didn't relize it until the "Coolant Level Low" warning poped up. I filled it with the proper dexcool mixture and monitored my driveway for spots.
Well it seems the car only leaks 2 small spots worth that appear to originate from the waterpump. The shop we always take the car to said that if it is the waterpump it could be a long time and best to take it to a dealer because they have the "special" tools and they haven't done a Northstar waterpump before. The part is "cheapish" but the labor is up to 6 hours according to Cadillac information to replace the entire pump and houseing, if its just an O-Ring or Gasket something like 3 hours. The shop we go to says that since they don't have the tools they might not even be able to do it.
Anyway it seems to only leak a small amount after the engine runs, during operation it doesn't seem to lose any coolant while under pressure, the colder outside however, the more it lost.
My observations from our Thanksgiving trip (Buffalo, NY to near Fort Knox, KY) is that while driveing through the areas of low temperature (snowing, freezing rain, etc and around 29-30 degrees) I had to add coolant at each "pit stop" while getting warmer and on the return trip with warmer whether their wasn't much coolant lost at all. This might also be why I didn't notice anything before our first snow storm when the temperture was lower.
I'm thinking this a gasket/o-ring problem as I can hear the water pump working. Just wondered your opinions. The dealer told my father they will run an 80-90 dollar computer check-up on it for diagnostic purposes to find out whats wrong. I told him forget that since we know somethings leaking and I pulled no codes relating, nor do I think a computer can tell anything other than what sensors tell it.

powerglide
11-30-05, 08:15 PM
Yeah I think the computer check up isnt gonna tell you much especially if youve already checked em yourself.

As for waterpump replacement, theres ALOT of info on here, even a step by step and pictures of the tools needed. Some have reported that its easily accessible and a pretty simple DIY.

If dealer wants 6 hours ($600) labor plus parts, I think you could do a lot better finding an independent that works caddies or if you're handy DIY.

(I believe some shops will lend you the tools...autozone maybe?)

anyway, someone with alot more experience will jump in and probably post something more useful.

good luck

snowface
11-30-05, 09:27 PM
I just replaced mine a few months ago ($588 out the door from the Cadi dealership) for the very same problem. I have a 1998 Deville D'Elegance. My "add coolant" light would come on every few days. I could also vaguely smell antifreeze. The dealership didn't charge me any extra fees to diagnose it.

Sorry I'm no further help.

ewill3rd
11-30-05, 09:49 PM
Usually you don't have to remove the coolant crossover. Water pumps fail at a much higher rate than the crossover seals.
Taking the crossover off is a pretty hard core job that should take between 4 and 6 hours.
The water pump itself should take less than 2 hours for a qualified tech and all you have to replace is the pump, the o-ring, and the cover gasket, oh and some coolant (duh!, :D)

A computer is not going to tell them what's leaking, they have to pressure test it and find all the leaks.
It is possible that one leak may mask another one and with age and mileage on a car it's not impossible to fix one leak and then find another.

I would verify that the crossover is actually leaking before I dropped that kind of cash on it.

Oh and the only special tool you really need is the socket for the water pump, it costs about 70 bucks for a good one. I think many parts stores offer tool rental or loaner programs if you buy the parts from them.
I am sure that there are good tips to be found on this site for the actual replacement procedure.

Good luck.

GreenMachine
11-30-05, 10:06 PM
Thanks for the replies. The guys at shop were looking at diagrams looking over how to put it in and what needs to be taken apart to fix this or that. It appeared the waterpump was inside a housing. Looking through the forum search right now for information on it.

Ranger
11-30-05, 10:20 PM
Here is a picture of the "special tool". This one is home made. http://www.geocities.com/grandolfo Cheap stamped steel sockets from Lysle can be had for $15 - $20. Some have had good luck with them and others say they slip. As ewill3rd said, a good machined one will run you $70+.

Probably the easiest water pump you'll ever change.

GreenMachine
12-01-05, 12:04 AM
Found this in the changeing coolant section of the tech archice :)
"http://www.cadillacforums.com/cadillac-tech.html#coolant

The water pump will be the easiest one you have ever changed...hard to believe the dealers (http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/../cadillac-tech.html#) can somehow justify charging $570 to change one - which is about $450 profit, I would say... With the special tool it's a snap. Remember that the water pump cartridge is removed by turning it clockwise as viewed from over the left front fender looking into the water pump cavity from the backside after removing the cover. It is installed by turning the special tool counterclockwise...a "left handed thread" install. When the old pump is out remember the o-ring seal that is in a groove in the water crossover casting. Look inside the housing when the water pump is out and you will see it. Put a new o-ring in the groove (should be in the kit with the pump) and make sure it is seated and lubed with antifreeze when installing the new pump.

Check the water pump drive belt (http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/../cadillac-tech.html#) and tensioner. The tensioner may need to be exercised and the pivot lubed to keep it moving freely."

I've never worked on a car other than cleaning it, adding oil, checking fluid levels, but I've worked on plenty of snow throwers and lawn mowers. Might be one of those father/son bonding opportunities....that is if he lets me do it.

Any of you happen to have diagrams/intructions/ on actually how to get at the sucker. I see its pulley and I know the airbox is in the way but what else to I have to remove and what tools are need to do it besides the Cadillac fancy waterpump remover.

Found this on e-bay: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/CADILLAC-AURORA-4-6-NORTHSTAR-WATER-PUMP-PRO-KIT-1073_W0QQitemZ8018820608QQcategoryZ33604QQssPageNa meZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
Is that what the whole waterpump and its assembly?

Supercrew632
12-01-05, 01:45 AM
I would have it pressure tested as sometimes only the cover gasket is leaking and not the pump---they are easy to diagnose. I don't know what dealers some people here are taking their cars to, but the technician only gets 2 hours labor for the cover and 2 1/2 for the pump. Our water pump replacements are around $375 out the door. Hope I helped you out.....

Supercrew632

ewill3rd
12-01-05, 07:00 AM
There are 4 seals that seal the water pump housing, or "crossover" to the engine. Sometimes they leak but like I said, not nearly as often as the pump itself. If it were a 2000 and up I'd say look at the cover. There is a new design cover for some of those years, but they have a tendency to leak.

As far as replacing the pump goes, the only thing that would even make it close to hard is if it has AIR. If so there will be a check valve bolted over the top of the pump cover, I don't think your '98 will have that though.

You just move the air box out of the way and take off the shield and the belt. Then you take 4, 10mm screws out and the pump is right in front of you. Then you just take the socket and turn the pump clockwise. There is one "tooth" on the pump that has a notch in it, you have to align that with a certain gap in the pump housing and then you put it back in.
While the pump is out clean the o-ring groove, put a light coating of petrolium jelly on the o-ring and put it in the groove. This does 2 things. 1. holds the o-ring in place. 2. Lets the pump go in nice and easy without tearing up the o-ring.
Don't "kill" the pump when you tighten it back in, all you have to do is put a little "crush" on the O-ring so it won't leak. If you really pull hard you'll make it impossible to remove next time.
Make sure to replace the cover seal and then put it back on.
Filling the cooling system is fairly simple and after you get the airbox back on you are done.

It's not hard but it does take some time.

Be sure to inspect the o-ring groove and the housing. In some instances heavy corrosion or chunks of missing metal will warrant removal and replacement of the housing.
Actually the easiest water pump out that almost has to be on the 3100 V6.
:D

No place should charge 600 bucks for the pump, but you'd probably pay a pro more than that to reaseal the crossover.
It's a nightmare.

HTH

GreenMachine
12-01-05, 05:00 PM
I would have it pressure tested as sometimes only the cover gasket is leaking and not the pump---they are easy to diagnose. I don't know what dealers some people here are taking their cars to, but the technician only gets 2 hours labor for the cover and 2 1/2 for the pump. Our water pump replacements are around $375 out the door. Hope I helped you out.....

Supercrew632
Intresting. I'll take a look this weekend (scheduled appointment with dealer is on tuesday) and if I can find the source of the leak that will certainly silence alot of the dealer saying "this or that" about labor and hours, especially if I can tell them exactly what the problem is. It'll also give me a chance to get under the hood and "pretty" it up. I'll take off and clean the acoustic cover vacuum any leaves or particles that made their way into the engine area. I'll take some pictures for all of you gear heads who like to see that stuff.

The shop we usually go to did a pressure test on it and followed the trail best they could w/o removing to much and know it originates from the pump area. Its nice being able to go in the back and watch them do all the repairs instead of looking through a window. Its also nice going to guys that you trust to not embelish the problem.

GreenMachine
12-06-05, 08:30 AM
Alright taking it into the dealer today, cold weather has also seem to have brought with it a stalling problem. Just after the engine has warmed up for a little bit and I stop at a stop light and have come to a complete stop the engine will rev slightly and drop off in RPMs and stall out after a moment. I put it in neutral and start it again. Only happens once but always seems to happen when the heat is running as heat. After that first stall it runs fine and wont stall again. Thinking something to do with fuel and when you stop it sloshes back and forth but I doubt that. Especially when there is more than 10 gals in the tank.
Pulling "B1340 Air Mix Door One Movement Fault" as a "current" code. Numerous history codes including "P1599 Engine Stall or Near Stall Detected"
It did this last year once or twice, whats makeing me nervous that its done it the last 2 times I've gone from overnight cold startups. Hopefully related to this waterpump problem (I can hope right, 2 birds with 1 stone). I hope this Deville isn't going to turn into a money pit, might have to look at some of the used Devilles on the lot today :)

GreenMachine
12-06-05, 10:43 PM
CONCLUSION
Pressure test concluded waterpump was bad, was replaced.
Scan of Invoice attached.

ewill3rd
12-07-05, 07:04 AM
Not bad, plus you now have a lifetime warranty on your water pump, just don't lose your invoice!
If it goes out again all you pay is labor I think.

GreenMachine
12-07-05, 11:56 PM
Not bad, plus you now have a lifetime warranty on your water pump, just don't lose your invoice!
If it goes out again all you pay is labor I think.
Not bad at all. I was over zealous in calling the Deville a money pit :P I looked through my service records and this car hasn't asked for to much maintenance. When I look at the cost of the part versus what the waterpump of a 98' Lexus LS it makes me feel better. I use that "mygmlink.com" site to keep all the service information available.

Now the next thing that needs to be replaced is the antenna, it gets (well did, I'll explain) stuck in the down position and needs to be pulled up about an inch to get it to go up on its own. I set it so it would stay up all the time until I could get time find information on it and replace it.

Well some wise guy bent it while my father and brother were at the dentist. It floped around a little while driving but the radio signal worked...until today when I cought it in the trunk as I was closing it and it snapped off...guess the 12 disc changer will be used more :)

mortan
10-25-10, 04:53 AM
The sugars in soda stick to the teeth and cause bacteria to grow there and cause cavities. Diet soda doesn't contain sugar but it doesn’t make it safer as the facts do not change. Artificial sweeteners attract the same process.

johnny kannapo
11-01-10, 03:36 PM
Crossover gaskets can leak, The coolant degrades plastic portion of the gasket after time & the silicone seal then has no support and then blows out. Its more likely an upper on a 98'. Its kin of a rough job, irritating. You would much rather do a coolant pump.