: Ford's PAG likely to lose money again...



Playdrv4me
11-05-05, 04:54 PM
http://www.autoweek.com/news.cms?newsId=103501

What bothers me about this is if it continues, some of the worlds finest luxury brands hang in the balance because of Ford's inability to properly manage PAG, or maybe not even so much inability to manage it as just a sheer inability to get any decent level of profit out of it. Namely among those brands are Jaguar, Land Rover and Aston Martin. Any level of disaster for the PAG group could mean shaky futures for any of those, and Jaguar is already on very unsteady ground as it is.

Ralph
11-05-05, 05:28 PM
It is concerning, and people probably expect the government to bail Ford out if something bad really happens, but I wouldn't bet on it nowadays. The govt. never bailed out Enron and they were a HUGE company.

What concerns me more is that a Chinese group just tried to purchase Exxon oil for 450 BILLION dollars! It was turned down, but they could EASILY own Ford if they had interest, and who knows about that in the future. If this happened, Most Ford employees would be able to keep their jobs, at first, but then they would likely close down a few plants over a number of months/years.....

I think that Jags future looks promising, and certainly more secure than the starved Lincoln division.

Playdrv4me
11-07-05, 04:42 PM
It is concerning, and people probably expect the government to bail Ford out if something bad really happens, but I wouldn't bet on it nowadays. The govt. never bailed out Enron and they were a HUGE company.
What concerns me more is that a Chinese group just tried to purchase Exxon oil for 450 BILLION dollars! It was turned down, but they could EASILY own Ford if they had interest, and who knows about that in the future. If this happened, Most Ford employees would be able to keep their jobs, at first, but then they would likely close down a few plants over a number of months/years.....
I think that Jags future looks promising, and certainly more secure than the starved Lincoln division.

Well, Lincoln's future is secure because it is a core Ford brand. Getting rid of Lincoln would be like GM getting rid of Cadillac, which I believe even in its worst times axing Cadillac was never really a viable option for GM. Jaguar on the other hand is an accessory niche brand that doesnt sell many cars and isnt viewed as a core piece of Ford, so if they wanted to axe it, no negative impact would be perceived to the Ford brand name. Axing Lincoln would tarnish Ford at least a bit.

Ralph
11-07-05, 06:04 PM
Well, Lincoln's future is secure because it is a core Ford brand. Getting rid of Lincoln would be like GM getting rid of Cadillac, which I believe even in its worst times axing Cadillac was never really a viable option for GM. Jaguar on the other hand is an accessory niche brand that doesnt sell many cars and isnt viewed as a core piece of Ford, so if they wanted to axe it, no negative impact would be perceived to the Ford brand name. Axing Lincoln would tarnish Ford at least a bit.

Oldsmobile was a major, profitable brand and it was killed off. Do you really think Ford would keep Lincoln around OVER a more heavily invested, profitable division like Jaguar? (mind you Jag is having some trouble right now) I don't. It certainly would be a shame to kill off Lincoln, but people seem not too sympathetic toward divisions that temporarily have weaker profits and are too eager to WANT them killed off.

Cadillac COULD and MIGHT have been killed off in the late 1980's, as many wanted and was talked about, but thank goodness GM didn't and considered future profits and keeping tradition alive.

Playdrv4me
11-07-05, 06:23 PM
Oldsmobile was a major, profitable brand and it was killed off. Do you really think Ford would keep Lincoln around OVER a more heavily invested, profitable division like Jaguar? I don't. It certainly would be a shame to kill off Lincoln, but people seem not too sympathetic toward divisions that temporarily have weaker profits and are too eager to WANT them killed off.
Cadillac COULD and MIGHT have been killed off in the late 1980's, as many wanted and was talked about, but thank goodness GM didn't and considered future profits and keeping tradition alive.

But the thing is Oldsmobile was not a core brand to GM's portfolio, much like Pontiac and Buick are today. Every major brand currently NEEDS a base division, and a luxury division. What happens in between those two is less important because customers dont "move up the ladder" these days as they used to. That being said, eliminating Cadillac or Lincoln would be altogether different than the elimination of Oldsmobile, which was like it or not, one of those "mid-tier" brands. I liked Oldsmobile better than Buick personally, but the truth is any one of those is ripe for killing if they needed to. Cadillac and Lincoln on the other hand are the only brands at the top end of the spectrum for both companies, as well as Lexus for Toyota, Infiniti for Nissan etc. Hyundai now wants to have its own Luxury division as well within the main fold.

When customers think of American Luxury in terms of Ford, they dont think "Chevrolet, Pontiac, Saab", they think "Chevrolet, Pontiac, Cadillac" or "Ford, Mercury, Lincoln" as opposed to "Ford, Merc, Jaguar". Domestic traditionalists just dont see Jaguar and Saab as domestic Luxury brands.

Ralph
11-07-05, 06:37 PM
but the truth is any one of those is ripe for killing if they needed to.

And that's just it, they did NOT need to be killed! Olds was more profitable than Saab and Saturn COMBINED in it's final year, AND Olds was GM's oldest division and one could argue, a VERY prestigious division to lose.

where do you draw the line.....like I said, many wanted Cadillac to be killed off in the 1980's but thank goodness they never listened or did it! Olds was known for "affordable luxury" much like Buick is, and Olds HAD their LOYAL CUSTOMER BASE. When we make excuses to say "lets kill THIS or THAT division off, where do you draw the line.......you cannot say one division is more important than the other, especially one with a rich heritage and heavy investiment by GM....

Olds was most certainly a CORE brand in my opinion, and several times they sold more cars that Cadillacs.

Pontiac was to be killed off also around 1990, but that would have been another bumbling mistake!

If Cadillac sales start to slump in a few years, should we consider killing it off too?? I'm sorry, but I don't buy into that philosophy, that's why you have other divisions to carry the weaker ones until they can become profitable once again. It's all about CHOICE, and CHOICE is GOOD.